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Self-nominations for the Arbitration Committee open

The self-nomination period of the Arbitration Committee elections is now open. The deadline for submitting a candidacy is 23:59, 12 November 2024 (UTC). Barkeep49 (talk) 20:54, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Edit filter manager request for non-admin

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Hello all, there is an edit filter manager application open for a non-admin. For information or to participate in the discussion, please see the edit filter noticeboard. EggRoll97 ^(talk) 07:54, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

ACE2024

In case you haven't noticed, WP:ACE2024/C is currently listing 3 candidates for the 9 open arbcom seats. What strikes me about the three is that they are all either current or former arbs. What is probably happening right now is what typically happens: there's a bunch of former arbs sitting on their hands and they'll add their names as the nomination window is nearly over. I'm not saying that having former arbs is bad, but in the big picture, we need new blood to keep the thing going. So all of you admins out there, please consider taking a step up and running for arbcom. RoySmith (talk) 02:57, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

• I'll throw my hat in the ring if we get approval to unionize. I think the pay arbitrators get here is substandard compared to that of arbitrators in similar positions on other collaborative editing projects.
  Seriously though, how can there be 9 open positions? Isn't it typically 6? Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 07:37, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

  It's typically either 7 or 8, depending on whether we're electing Tranche Alpha (7) or Tranche Beta (8). This year we're electing Tranche Alpha, so that's 7 positions, but Maxim and Firefly (both elected last year to Tranche Beta) recently resigned, bringing the number of open positions up to 9. --rchard2scout (talk) 08:34, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

  We could upgrade your boring, basic mop to a Smart Mop^(TM), would that do? -- asilvering (talk) 17:30, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

• RoySmith's concerns are really valid. All of the current candidates have already served more than one term within the past 8 years. I really encourage administrators with a year or two under their belt, particularly those who feel comfortable working as part of a team or who have experience with dispute resolution, to give this some thought. This isn't to criticize the experienced hands who have put themselves forward; it is to emphasize that "new blood" is essential for Arbcom to do its best work. Risker (talk) 08:58, 8 November 2024 (UTC) Full disclosure, recently I was asked to consider running again this year (after about 10 years away), but having just come off the very intense work of the MCDC, I need to do more project-based work and less committee work for a while.
• I was going to ask a question this morning about numbers etc, but Roy and Risker have now answered it. I wonder how many editors/admins are in my position — happy to help, a little hesitant given the burnout witnessed from consecutive Committees, somewhat hopeful that 10-12 other good options nominate so they don't have to, but will if numbers stay skinny. This might sound incredibly selfish but ArbCom does not seem like it would be 'fun' in the slightest; at best it could be considered rewarding. It's a big commitment (potentially two years) and that's a lot to ponder when considering throwing one's hat in the ring. Daniel (talk) 09:07, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
  • I'm in the same place, Daniel. I was an arbitration clerk for two years and I know how much work is involved at some points and how much criticism even the most functional committee receives. That leaves me with mixed feelings. It would help to hear some former arbitrators issue a sales pitch for why it was a rewarding experience. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 09:24, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

    @Liz and Daniel: To a certain extent, many hands make light work. Obviously most of the committee needs to get involved in the big cases but we only have a few of those per year. You're both experienced admins so taking flak for a necessary but unpopular decision should be nothing new. I've been doing it for a year now and it's not as bad as I imagined so I'd encourage you both to run. If you really hate it, you could always resign at next year's election but new blood is important and so is having an election with enough candidates for it to be meaningful. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 11:35, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

    I have enjoyed my experience on ArbCom, even though I have not been the most active. There are many roles within the committee, so members can work in the areas or topics that are most interesting to them. Moving checkuser blocks to the community has lightened our workload to devote more time to other activities. The admin tasks that I think are most similar to working on ArbCom are AE, unblock requests and checkuser: those thinking about running can participate in those areas to see if they like that work. I strongly encourage anyone who is interested in ArbCom to run: I do not regret my decision and I feel like it is a fantastic place to help make Wikipedia better for its editors. Even if you are not successful, you can get some ideas on where you can find places to improve your skills on the admin side of Wikipedia. If anyone wants to reach out to me they are welcome to send me an email. Z1720 (talk) 14:20, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

*Dracula voice* "We need ze blood! Ze fresh blood!" But seriously, yes we do need new folks on the Committee from time to time. I can say that it is one of the best and most rewarding things that I do in my life. It provides a lot of transferable skills. I also find it easy to do on the go, which is a real bonus over regular editing. Don't wanna be scrolling mindless social media? Why not try reading Arb discussions! Don't feel like you have to come in as a perfectly formed judicial decision machine. We need the same thing we need in admins: humble people willing to learn. The time commitment is different depending on your style. Some people go in sprints, some run a marathon; ArbCom needs both tortoises and hares to run well. I think the work that ArbCom does is important and really makes a difference. It's not all sunshine and roses, as various guide writers (see User:Barkeep49/ACE) have put more eloquently than me, but it's meaningful, engaging work. So if you're on the fence, I really do encourage you to throw your hat into the ring! Or if you know some whippersnapper who'd make a good choice, why not send them a message encouraging them to run? I would have never run if it were not for a community veteran who privately encouraged me to take the leap. CaptainEek ^{Edits Ho Cap'n!}⚓ 17:54, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

I also find it easy to do on the go, which is a real bonus over regular editing. This, 1000%, is such a key selling point for me. I travel for work (far more than I'd like), and while I read Wikipedia/discussions/etc. every day, there are some days I just can't edit when travelling. Emails and just being across things are fine, but to sit down and actually edit on a plane or in a hotel just sometimes doesn't happen. Thanks for sharing your experiences CaptainEek, as well as HJ Mitchell and Z1720 above — it is genuinely appreciated. Daniel (talk) 00:33, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

Yes, it's much easier to keep up with emails on a phone than it is to do any serious editing. If you're used to reading and digesting discussion threads in between daily life you'll probably find ArbCom quite manageable. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 00:47, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

• Until the WMF has a dedicated deputy general counsel and transparent budget and procedures for volunteer security/indemnification, I can’t countenance even standing for admin, far less Arbcom, even though I humbly suggest I would bring considerable experience and value to either role. I value my identity, job, and physical safety, and I cherish this project (and, uh, have the litigation skills in spades for that role if it existed—and a proposed job description as an ongoing brain-doodling phone note) but I’m going to stick to hyphenating compound modifiers and decapitalizing generic food names. I deeply appreciate the work of everyone who serves. I wish I felt comfortable being of more service. I’m just too scared of the trolls, and have too many IRL responsibilities to take on that enormous layer cake of anxiety with no expectation of support from the WMF. Julietdeltalima (talk) 06:10, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

  ArbCom is covered by the WMF's Legal Fees Assistance Program. Legoktm (talk) 18:41, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

  To the extent of an unknown amount of “earmarked funds”, hence my budget transparency concerns. These cases get really expensive, really fast, because the obvious initial line of defense in many U.S. states (including California) is an anti-SLAPP motion, which requires accelerated briefing and discovery—and even though most such laws provide for the prevailing party (hopefully the WMF and volunteer(s)) to recoup attorney fees and costs of suit from the non-prevailing party, there is virtually never any ability or willingness for the loser to pay that award. Or they appeal. Either way, even the winner has to keep paying lawyers either to pursue the appeal or file motions as part of collection efforts. I would need to know the extent of those “earmarked funds” and the policies regarding their distribution before I’d be okay taking on that risk. I can’t trust the WMF not to quit paying my legal bills because they purportedly ran out of money their “earmarked funds” got exhausted mid-case. Julietdeltalima (talk) 10:01, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

• I note that there are now, about 62 hours from closing, 7 candidates for 9 seats, I presume (I have not followed the arbcom election messages) that if there are no more candidates than available seats all candidates will be successful, and that there will be no election. That can't be good. Phil Bridger (talk) 09:43, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

  Candidates still need >50% for a one year term, and >60% for a full two years, so an election would still be necessary. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 11:27, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

  Thanks for that ScottishFinnishRadish. You've put my mind partially at rest by showing that there is some quality control. It would still be better to have more candidates. Phil Bridger (talk) 12:27, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

  Here's hoping for the rush during the final 48. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 12:32, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

  User:Risker/Thoughts for Arbitration Committee Candidates is pretty good for those who may be on the fence. Clearly we need a few more good candidates. Just Step Sideways ^{from this world ..... today} 19:27, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

  For more descriptions of what it's like to be an arbitrator, see Wikipedia:Arbitrator experiences. isaacl (talk) 23:09, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

• Glad to hear RoySmith and Liz are planning to add their names! :) How about some straight-up peer pressure other humble suggestions? Here are some folks I'd support (omitting a couple that I know I've nudged in the past and got a hard pass): @Red-tailed hawk, Firefangledfeathers, Novem Linguae, ScottishFinnishRadish, Rosguill, EvergreenFir, Girth Summit, Valereee, Joe Roe, and Muboshgu: (btw not expecting a response here -- just pinging in case you haven't thought about it) — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 21:23, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

  One step ahead of you. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 21:33, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

  Well, there you go. I can pick 'em. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 21:41, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

  As a sitting member of the Ombuds Commission, I am ineligible. RoySmith (talk) 21:37, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

  @Rhododendrites: I'm flattered, and rather chuffed, that you would suggest I put my hat in the ring. Susceptible as I am to suggestion, I'm going through some IRL stuff at the moment which has taken me away from the project for much of the last few months, and which might do so again in the year ahead. I wouldn't want to make promises about my available time which I'm unable to keep. That said, if you put your name forward, as a very experienced and level-headed editor, I think you might get a lot of support... Best wishes, Girth Summit _(blether) 00:48, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

  Understandable. Maybe next time. if you put your name forward - oh heavens no. I'm just here to pester other people who would be good for it. :) — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 02:15, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

  Rhodo, I appreciate your confidence in me. But I'm not a spot in my life where I have the time to do the job of an arbitrator well, so I won't be running. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 00:50, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

• ArbCom work seems it's even worse than closing long, difficult discussions. I can't imagine wanting to sign up for it, but those of you who do: thank you for your sacrifice, and I'll be praying for your wellbeing. —Compassionate727 ^(T·C) 02:48, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

What has kept me from throwing my hat in the ring, year after year, is that a) I enjoy the editing work I do now and that is pretty time-intensive and b) I don't want a repeat of my experience from my RFA which was grueling. But maybe arbitration candidates are treated more kindly than admin candidates. I do have a draft of a statement written up but I'm still undecided based on the two points I mentioned. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 05:22, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

The biggest difference in the ArbCom elections is that the voting is secret, so you only have the question phase. That makes it less grueling in many ways, although even the questions can be tricky - I know I spent an hour figuring out how to answer a tricky question in my RfA but I guess I got it. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 05:31, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Obviously I can't speak for ACE or EFA personally, but if you read the debriefs from the folks who just tried the admin elections, the general impression is that secret ballot made the whole thing pretty painless. Actually, one of the common complaints from the candidates who got more opposition is that they don't know what turned people off of them! The opposite of a gruelling RfA, really. -- asilvering (talk) 06:56, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Note to anyone waiting until the last minute: That would be right now. There are nine seats open and only ten applicants. You have two hours. Just Step Sideways ^{from this world ..... today} 22:08, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

I don't know whether or not it was your message, Just Step Sideways, but we got two more candidates in the final two hours. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 05:18, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

I seriously feel a lot better. More candidates, to a point, are a good thing. Just Step Sideways ^{from this world ..... today} 05:21, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Is there a way to get an ENWP account blocked for multiple account abuse without filing an RFCU?

Hi there. I am editing on the Simple English Wikipedia, as well as this one, and this afternoon I've discovered an account on the Simple Wikipedia, belonging to someone who also has an account here. User:Times Daily has been blocked indefinitely (on Simple) for abusing multiple accounts.

The block was enacted by the administrator / checkuser User:Vermont on Friday November 1st 2024. Without carrying out a CU here, is there any way of getting the user blocked on here too, since they have been active with similar articles to those written on the Simple site, or do you have to conduct a local CU for the English Wikipedia, too?

The notice to the user is linked here: simple:User_talk:Times_Daily#November_2024.

Thank you. Dane|Geld 17:03, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

We'd need evidence that they have been abusing multiple accounts on this project. Do you know the name of the other accounts they used over there? Girth Summit _(blether) 17:07, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

I don't. I can check for an SPI over there, and see if their other accounts are listed. I'll have to wait for a few moments, because I'm in the process of putting out the notices to the involved editors I've mentioned. I'll get on it in a moment. Dane|Geld 17:09, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

@Girth Summit: - I can only see one on the SPI for Times Daily there, and that's User:The Unknown Explorer, who has not edited this site. They are however, connected. Involved parties (Vermont and Times Daily) have now been notified of this thread. Dane|Geld 17:19, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

This has been an issue for over a decade, in that one CU block doesn't carry over to other projects and CUs rarely notify other affected projects in which the accounts have activity on. There is an additional process by filing the report on meta:Steward requests/Global to get a sockpuppet account global locked by stewards when this step should have been automatic. OhanaUnited^{Talk page} 06:23, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

Ping to @JBW:, who issued them a final warning; there are several issues with Times Daily (talk · contribs) that were flagged by multiple editors, including copyvios, trying to push a certain autobio with title evasion, and CIR concerns (calling readers 'viewers' in edit summaries for instance). Nate • (chatter) 17:10, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

I noticed only one, User:The Unknown Explorer, and they have not made any edits to en.wiki.--Bbb23 (talk) 17:15, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

• Based on the socking elsewhere and the disruptive editing here, I ran a check. They're a sock of Top Gun X 4. Blocking, along with The Unknown Explorer (both  Confirmed). Blocking etc. Girth Summit _(blether) 18:16, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

84Swagahh unban request

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Request reason:

Hello members of the Wikipedia administration reviewing my request for unblock, It has been six months since my last request for unblock and editing activity on the English Wikipedia. Per the standard offer and other rules on Wikipedia, I have not used any other account or IP address to edit on any Wikimedia project during this block. In addition, I promise that I will not repeat the behavior that led to my blocks. This behavior including creating and abusing sock-puppet accounts, vandalism, harassment, disruption, and username policy violations. Lastly, I do not believe that given reasons for people to object my return. I have avoided bad behavior and contributed to other projects during my block. During this block, I have been active on the Simple English Wikipedia. I have made over 1400 contributions and have not received any warning during my time. I reverted bad-faith edits using twinkle, gave those users warnings, nominated articles for deletion, performed copy-editing, welcomed new users, and expanded articles. I have applied for the roll backer permission and successfully earned it, meaning I am in good standing with the project's administration. However, I have not been as active with editing on the Simple English Wikipedia recently than I was the last 6-11 months. I still spent time reading articles on Wikipedia, but I just wasn't as active. I believe that this shows my efforts towards returning to the community and my ability to make positive contributions. Please note that this request was shorter than my last request in order to make it easier for administrators to review. If there are any questions for me, please ask me and I will respond to them. Thank you, 😂🤣84Swagahh🤣😂 17:43, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Because he is banned via WP:3X, I'm bringing the request here. There is no evidence of recent block evasion (see brief discussion at User talk:84Swagahh#Unblock Request through the Standard Offer). What he says about his activity on simple-wiki is true; there is some additional relevant discussion here. -- asilvering (talk) 21:45, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

• Sure, I don't object. Editor seems to have matured some. Drmies (talk) 00:54, 9 November 2024 (UTC)
• Support – positive contributions at a sister project, meeting the WP:SO. Welcome back. HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 01:44, 9 November 2024 (UTC)
• Can we get some additional context on the initial block? Was it just blatant vandalism with multiple accounts? —Compassionate727 ^(T·C) 12:53, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

  As far as I can tell, yeah. Examples (note datestamps): https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/BulgariaWarrior -- asilvering (talk) 18:46, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

  In that case, support. Seems more mature, and there will be basically no cost if it turns out otherwise. —Compassionate727 ^(T·C) 20:17, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

• Support as the editor is a good-faith editor and has been productive on another project, but with the condition that they not edit from temporarily assigned devices from their school. CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 15:27, 9 November 2024 (UTC)
• Support unbanning - I see no reason to not take this request in good faith and a spot-check of their contributions at Simple did not turn up any issues. ThadeusOfNazereth(he/him)^{Talk to Me!} 18:52, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Permission gaming after warnings

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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User:Uncle Ramon seems to be making a ton of useless edits to user talk page to get to Extended Confirmed. They have been made aware that this is prohibited, but they have deleted that notice and continued, so here we are. ABG (Talk/Report any mistakes here) 06:05, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

I'm doing it because I can't post on someone's talk page because I need to talk to them about something and their talk page is extended confirmed protected Uncle Ramon (talk) 06:06, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

(I'm so dumb, I posted this in AN thinking this was AN/I...) There is always an option to request a decrease in protection level or reach the editor in a different way. ABG (Talk/Report any mistakes here) 06:07, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

What other way to reach them is there? Uncle Ramon (talk) 06:11, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

You can just ping them. win8x (talking | spying) 06:36, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

I don't want to cast aspersions, but with recent LTA's always being here, I am led to believe they want to edit Qcne's talk page. The user could just tell us who's talk page they want to edit, but doesn't want to tell. win8x (talking | spying) 06:09, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Huh? Who's Qcne?

I'm not looking to contact that user, and their talk page isn't even ECP'd

I just looked upon going to that person's talk page Uncle Ramon (talk) 06:12, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Again, who are you trying to contact? We can contact them for you. win8x (talking | spying) 06:13, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

But I don't want anybody to contact them tho

That's what I'm trying to get at

I want to be the one to contact them Uncle Ramon (talk) 06:17, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, this user came outta nowhere just today and they already know jargons like "ECP". I'm probably bad at assuming good faith here. ABG (Talk/Report any mistakes here) 06:21, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Well you create an account and you already need to contact someone. There aren’t tons of ECP user talk pages. I want to assume good faith though, but I wanted others who see this report to consider the possibility. win8x (talking | spying) 06:23, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, because I just created an account 2 months ago. I'm pretty sure 2 months is enough to know what ECP is. Uncle Ramon (talk) 06:27, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

You started editing today. ABG (Talk/Report any mistakes here) 06:30, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

So just because I started editing today that means I didn't start READING Wikipedia until today...?

And I'm somehow supposed to magically assume that I don't know anything about the user permission rights because I just started editing today? Uncle Ramon (talk) 06:37, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Extended confirmed revoked. You can make a request to regain that permission after making 500 real edits. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 06:44, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Then how am I supposed to contact the person I want to contact if their talk page is extended confirmed protected? Uncle Ramon (talk) 06:47, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

You’ve had plenty of offers to help. See above. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 06:48, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

And I already said I don't need their help. So I'm not sure why you… felt the need to take my extended confirmed privileges away. Uncle Ramon (talk) 06:49, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Gaming the system. You were warned multiple times. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 06:55, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Over a talk page?????? Uncle Ramon (talk) 06:56, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Uncle Ramon, yes, this is over a talk page. The intent of the 500 edit requirement to achieve WP:ECP is to show convincingly that the editor is learning about Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. An editor who repeatedly adds just another period to a long list of periods that does not improve the encyclopedia in any discernable way is learning nothing of value and is "gaming the system". That is what you have been doing, and if you want to have a conversation with another editor whose talk page is protected due to harassment, then there legitimate ways to do so, such as pinging that editor to this conversation. Your refusal to do so and reluctance to explain yourself indicates that your intentions are not productive. Cullen328 (talk) 07:18, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

I'm not pinging them here because I dont want to ping them, I want to post on THEIR talk page. I already explained myself several times so I'm not being reluctant AT ALL to explain myself, y'all just dont want to listen. I said I wanted to post on another editor's talk page and I wanted to start the conversation from there, on THEIR talk page. Not anywhere else. I'm not understanding why the fuck y'all take a privilege away from somebody that already EXPLAINED their intentions and then refuse to give it back to them, when there shouldnt fucking be a restriction on the other page in the first place. Uncle Ramon (talk) 07:25, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Following their permissions being revoked, they have left this message for rsjaffe. Given the wording used, I don't think they understand the situation to put it mildly. --Super Goku V (talk) 07:23, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

WP:RBI Cullen328 (talk) 07:51, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

Unban request for Kansascitt1225

Kansascitt1225 is considered banned by the community due to extensive sockpuppetry, see Category:Wikipedia sockpuppets of Kansascitt1225. They are requesting the ban be lifted and I am posting their request below. As a WP:CHECKUSER, I see no evidence of recent block evasion. Their request from August 16 indicates they haven't evaded in eight months, so that would make it about 11 months now. I lost track of this unban request due to 2024 Jasper wildfire and COVID-19, my apologies to Kansascitt1225 for making them wait so freaking long to start this discussion. I have very slightly altered the request to nowiki the references, to make them more obvious on this discussion page. --Yamla (talk) 20:58, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Hi admins, I have not edited Wikipedia since December of 2023. I was unable to continue responding to my last request due to personal circumstances and going out of town. I have demonstrated that I can follow simple, clear instructions which shows I am able to abide by community rules and not bypass my block. I would appreciate being given wikipedias standard offer. I promise to not use multiple accounts which is the behavior that got me blocked to begin with. Most of these accounts were improperly used for persistent block evasion. I don’t want to give anyone anymore reasons to object. I know now that if I have a disagreement with someone I can talk on the talk page or on their user talk page instead of edit warring or creating an account. I have learned that civility is important on Wikipedia too and have become easier to get along with as I am older now also. I want to make constructive edits to Wikipedia and am interested in demographics and geography along with world and cities populations. I am trying to keep this short and I promise that I don’t intend to be disruptive to the project at all. I know it was a problem on my investigations case page me objecting to “largely suburban” on the Johnson county pages. I truly believed I was doing the right thing as I was always taught where I was growing up that a suburb was a more car centric place that is less dense within commuting distance of a city which is currently what the suburb page says now. I intend to edit this page to educate people that sometimes especially in the US that suburbs is where most jobs are located. In the case of Kansas City this suburban area and the municipalities within it have lower single family housing rates, more jobs, more population and higher density than the city with some suburbs walking to work more than the city. I wanted to make this clear. I do have good references for this including from the us census bureau. I think the main issue I had with the content is that calling the communities like Overland Park and Johnson county “suburban” makes people think that more people commute out than into these places and that these places are less dense and have more single family housing, which is the complete opposite of reality. I won’t remove anything about these communities as being suburban but want to include that they have more density, more jobs and lower single family housing rates so people don’t get confused. I also edited a while ago (more than 6 months) the Economy of St. Louis page and showed how white flight influenced the city’s economy as it was the same for Economy of Kansas City and wanted to edit the page to make it more accurate instead of saying the economy is anchored by Kansas City Missouri even though there’s more jobs outside the city than within it. I have edited these before while blocked but not within the last 8 months. I want to make constructive edits to improve the encyclopedia and working cooperatively with others is what I intend on doing. I was also upset that this was removed as biased, misleading and false to the point the page was protected and from my point of view I felt as though I was being blatantly lied too. It’s a well known fact that Kansas City has experienced decades of white flight and urban decay and I think I was also caught off guard by people in Kansas City calling these places suburbs meanwhile them having these characteristics.

- Here are some references

• States that Most United States jobs are in the suburbs <ref>{{cite web|url= https://www2.census.gov/about/training-workshops/2021/2021-05-19-led-presentation.pdf}}</ref><ref>{{cite web|url=http://www.newgeography.com/content/005264-suburbs-continue-dominate-jobs-and-job-growth#:~:text=Most%20Jobs%20Growth%20Since%202010,overall%20combined%20share%20of%20employment.}}</ref>

• States that Single family detached homes are less common in some of the suburbs compared to city in the Kansas City area. <ref>{{cite web|url=https://data.census.gov/table?q=DP04&g=160XX00US2053775,2938000}}</ref>

• Shows that there is a Higher population density in some of the suburbs of Kansas City <ref>{{cite web|url=https://statisticalatlas.com/metro-area/Missouri/Kansas-City/Population#figure/place/population-density}}</ref>

• comparison that shows people walk to work more in some of the suburbs than the city <ref>{{cite web|url=https://data.census.gov/table?q=commute&g=160XX00US2938000}}</ref><ref>{{cite web|url=https://data.census.gov/table?q=commute&g=160XX00US2039350}}}</ref>

Kansascitt1225 (talk) 09:59, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

• Comment The blocking admin is Berean Hunter. They have not been active for more than four years so I did not notify them. --Yamla (talk) 21:07, 11 November 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose - Frankly, this unblock request reads as a promise to continue to WP:RGW on a specific topic (I intend to edit this page to educate people that sometimes especially in the US that suburbs is where most jobs are located.), rather the opposite of what we want from editors. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 18:54, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

  The following comment copied over from User talk:Kansascitt1225. Minor formatting changes from me, around references. --Yamla (talk) 19:45, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Hi @HandThatFeeds: thank you for reading my unblock request. I’m not sure if you read these references or not, but the overwhelming majority of jobs are in the suburbs in the United States. In Kansas City for example only around 4% of jobs are in the central business district and only 30% of the Kansas City areas jobs are in the city of Kansas City, Missouri. Could you please explain how this would be tendentious editing so I can avoid it the future ? I can’t find any evidence for the contrary and genuinely do want to work cooperatively with others and I honestly don’t see how this is breaching Neutral point of view.

• Census publication <ref>{{cite web|url= https://www2.census.gov/about/training-workshops/2021/2021-05-19-led-presentation.pdf}}</ref>

• Website article <ref>{{cite web|url=http://www.newgeography.com/content/005264-suburbs-continue-dominate-jobs-and-job-growth#:~:text=Most%20Jobs%20Growth%20Since%202010,overall%20combined%20share%20of%20employment.}}</ref>

• Sample of jobs in central business districts. <ref>{{cite web|url=http://www.demographia.com/db-cbd2000.pdf}}</ref> — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kansascitt1225 (talk • contribs)

Honestly, this just proves my point: rather than building up trust in the community by doing literally anything else, the user wants to go back to an area to educate people that they are right, and is arguing over sourcing rather than understanding that their behavior is the problem. Kansascitt1225, if you want any hope of ever being unblocked, you should step away from this topic entirely and work on something else. If this is the only thing you're interested in working on for Wikipedia, I'd suggest just moving on to some other site. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 20:00, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Kansascitt should move on to different projects. I'd suggest taking pictures of subjects that are highly needed in articles, Commons is all about contributing with highly educational value images. Ahri Boy (talk) 00:04, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

Red link example user

Red link example is permanently protected as a link that can be used in documentation and testing (note the page protection summary).

I have created User:Red link example for the same purpose.

Can someone kindly permanently protect the user, talk and sandbox pages, with an edit summary similar to the above?

Once done, I will also request that the account be globally locked. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 21:00, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

 Done voorts (talk/contributions) 21:29, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

 This section is resolved and can be archived. If you disagree, replace this template with your comment. Thank you. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 21:38, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Unban request for Wikiuser1314

Wikiuser1314 is banned by the community under WP:3X. They were initially blocked as a sock of WorldCreaterFighter who has a long-term abuse page, see Wikipedia:Long-term abuse/WorldCreaterFighter. They claim to be unrelated, but admit a long string of sockpuppets. As a WP:CHECKUSER, I see no evidence of recent block evasion. I solicited feedback from other checkusers on the cu mailing list but did not get a response. --Yamla (talk) 21:08, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Hello Wikipedia community! At first I want to apologize for my past mistakes. I want to face my past and work to regain the trust of the community. Quite some time has passed, and I fully understand my wrongdoings now. After waiting the mandatory six months since the block of this account, I sincerely ask for a WP:UNBAN process. – To better understand and summarize my past mistakes, I will try to exlpain how it started: my first account user:Satoshi Kondo (no access anymore), which initially got blocked because I stupidly created two other accounts at that time user:일성강 and user:Kumasojin 熊襲 simultaneously. I attribute these quite stupid actions to my then quite young age of 15 years old in 2016. After some time, those three accounts got correctly blocked as confirmed to each other, but later got merged into the "WorldCreatorFighter" sock-zoo, which now is confirmed to represent (at least) two distinct users (the other being user:Vamlos). I was however to dump and too impatient at that time to explain or wait and apply for a standard offer. As such, the misery started, paired with other rule violations and childish behavior on my side, such as being too impatient and too fixated on my personal views (regardless of if they were correct/sourced or not) and did aggressively try to implement them here. – My blockes were justified and I am ashamed of my past mistakes. Since late 2022, and with this account (Wikiuser1314), I learned a lot, not only here on Wikipedia, but also in real life. I improved myself, became more patient, more cooperative and appreciated to work together with other users. In short, I got older and learned from my past. For that, please also take a look at my talk page and edits of this account (Wikiuser1314). – I really want to constructively and positively edit and contribute to the Wikipedia project, together with fellow Wikipedians, and according to the rules. I do not want to run away anymore and hope to get a chance to prove myself. I am ready to fully cooperate with the Wikipedia community to regain trust. I am also ready to reveal my real identity to administrators and get in contact with them, to explain myself and for further details if it is necessary. Thanks. Sincerely – Wikiuser1314 (talk) 12:56, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

I then asked, Please list all of the accounts you've used. A good place to start is Category:Suspected Wikipedia sockpuppets of WorldCreaterFighter and Category:Wikipedia sockpuppets of WorldCreaterFighter. I'm primarily interested in accounts you've used in the past year that we haven't listed there and primarily interested in accounts you claim do not belong to you. --Yamla (talk) 12:14, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

@Yamla: Embarrassing for me, but here are the accounts I once used: User:Banjardar, User:Bharat99x2, User:Kumasojin 熊襲, User:Kush3897, User:Ogbuago, User:SapmiSamo, User:WhiteTeaWiki, User:X Aterui x, User:일성강, User:突厥 哈萨克族, User:2001.4bc9.824.e0e4, User:AmurTiger18, User:AntiTuranism1908, User:Ape-huchi, User:Arario, User:Arkiat, User:AsadalEditor, User:AustronesianTaiwan, User:Azazmeh, User:Baikal13, User:BaiulyQz, User:Bayan Khagan, User:Benjamin Samasa?, User:Benji887, User:ChampaDroid, User:DeEnTranslator?, User:GanjDareh4, User:GoguryeoHistorian, User:Gyatso1, User:HainanTai, User:Heiwajima20Ip, User:HlaaluTW, User:Hmoob Yao, User:Jäkke34, User:JihoHone, User:KalifFR?, User:Kang Sung-Tae, User:KinhyaKing, User:KuroZetsu oho, User:KwestaPC, User:Lankaman20, User:LenguaEditar?, User:Lord Huynh, User:Magyarrider, User:Manasam98, User:Mandari9, User:Masamannamasam, User:MLx22, User:MomotaniSS, User:MomotaniYY, User:Nam Việt 18, User:OghurBushi, User:Quapaw, User:Rimisibaqwa, User:RobertoY20, User:Ruuchuu, User:Sakushain, User:Satoshi Kondo, User:Saxhleel, User:Shatuo, User:ShiroEmishi, User:Skaalra, User:Takeshima42, User:TAMILinJAPAN, User:TamizhUser, User:Tiberiussan, User:Tomislav22, User:TürkSamurai, User:Turukkaean, User:Whhu22, User:WikiEdit2204, User:Wikiworkbot2.0, and User:YonaguniFan.

—

The others in both lists are unrelated to me. (Not me:User:WorldCreaterFighter, User:ConspiracyThinkerPeople, User:Dddcg, User:DerekHistorian, User:DragoniteLeopard, User:Jinjin555, User:KnowledgeAndPeace, User:Lynch Kevin de León, User:TechnichalProblems, User:WorkingCatDog123, User:Adygeheipeople, User:BoxRec9, User:CantoneseMaster, User:ChowChowWong, User:Dan Capoccia, User:Deccodabo, User:DrKoraKora, User:Gailververgailqqq, User:HeichtiSmech, User:InternationalAffairs3, User:LemanderOrange, User:MasterChai, User:Namela123, User:OrenburgNative, User:OttoKhan, User:PeopleTaking11, User:Pinoy123xaaa, User:Robela2, User:Spiritclaymore, User:SushigirlJessice, User:TelephoneBaby, User:ToRespond, User:TurkicDelight, User:Verakhu, User:WayneMacleod1, and User:WuyueDNApeople. )

—

Accounts once associated with me, but not blocked/listed here should be these: User:Orange172212, User:Noble4c2, and User:Krause96. – Wikiuser1314 (talk) 16:42, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

• If this user is really distinct from the master of the WorldCreaterFighter sockfarm, we couldn't distinguish them by behaviour nor by technical data, and we have a lot of those data points. At some point when we get into the hundreds of accounts that both look and act the same, we stop bothering to carefully distinguish one account from another, because they've collectively been so disruptive over such a long period of time that there's practically zero chance of them ever being unblocked, and each new one is just adding to the garbage heap. So maybe Wikiuser1234 is a different person, maybe they're not; to me it's irrelevant, and policy supports this irrelevancy. This case goes back over a decade, has been persistent throughout that time, and involves pushing fringe theories in a sensitive subject. I'm inclined to say never here, but I'd like to hear from people who edit that topic and have had to put up with this for a decade. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 19:14, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

  Do we know when the most recent sock was? There's too many here for me to hunt-and-peck looking for it. Just Step Sideways ^{from this world ..... today} 21:16, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

  Based on manual investigation (!!!) of the self-declared socks, Wikiuser1314 last edited articles on 2024-04-22. Prior to that account, Krause96 on 2023-08-02. --Yamla (talk) 21:25, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

• Wikiuser1314: what do you plan to edit if unblocked? Articles, topic areas, etc... what are your interests? ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 20:33, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
• Support There's every indication that the user is ready to be reintegrated into the Wikipedia community. They waited out the required six months patiently, made a perfectly reasonable unban request, and came clean about their past accounts. Their most recent account, User:Wikiuser1314, made over 1500 edits over a period of 1.5 years without causing any disruption. I don't see any value in preventing them from continuing to positively contribute to the project. 78.28.44.127 (talk) 12:15, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
• Support. A solid six-month wait and a strong value to future constructive contributions seem that the user will not repeat the same mistake he did before. Welcome back. The community might trust you again. Ahri Boy (talk) 05:39, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

IP hopper back at the Help Desk

There's an IP hopper back at the WP:HD posting stuff like this. This kind of thing has been happening on and off at various pages (e.g. WP:THQ) for awhile now and seems to resume eventually whenever the PP runs out. There seem to be different versions of essentially the same post being added, but they're all in non-standard fonts. I think some of the accounts have been blocked, but that hasn't slowed this person down. Is there any thing that can be done outside of page protection? I don't have much experience with WP:LTA, but it appears this might be one of those cases. -- Marchjuly (talk) 06:54, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

The disruption seems to have stopped for now; so, perhaps nothing needs to be done at the moment. -- Marchjuly (talk) 07:14, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

I am sorry but probably nothing can be done. May be some ranges can be blocked but they seem to use multiple ranges. Ymblanter (talk) 07:30, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

This now seems to be being discussed in more detail below at #Seeking opinions: protection of the help desk and teahouse; so, perhaps this thread can be closed. -- Marchjuly (talk) 21:33, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Flamewar at Wikipedia:Requests for permissions over BilledMammal

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

• Wikipedia:Requests for permissions/Rollback#User:BilledMammal (permalink)

BilledMammal was recently granted rollback permissions by Just Step Sideways and used those permissions to mass-revert CarmenEsparzaAmoux, a blocked sockpuppet. Makeandtoss and Zero0000 (an admin) are now arguing at that thread the permissions were wrongly granted.[1] Both of them should be told to knock it off.

First of all, RFP is not the right place for that discussion as both editors were warned by Extraordinary Writ, an uninvolved administrator, though they have continued arguing. Second of all, Extraordinary Writ and other admins have explained that to revert edits by banned or blocked users in defiance of their block or ban (but be prepared to explain this use of rollback when asked to) is an acceptable WP:ROLLBACKUSE.

I would appreciate it if uninvolved administrators can step in and close that thread since RFP isn't the appropriate forum for lengthy discussions of tool use. I'd also like a clear consensus over whether or not rollback was acceptable here.

For full context, Makeandtoss and BilledMammal were involved in a dispute over the Palestine-Israel topic area that made it to WP:AE in June, and the use of rollback occurred within that area. Makeandtoss was given a final warning by ScottishFinnishRadish for behavior that falls below the required level required when editing in contentious topics[2] and previous battlegroundy behaviour in the area. There is probably a further conduct issue that can be dealt with here or at AE, but the immediate action should be to close the RFP thread. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 19:00, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

I agree that PERM is not a place for debates. I've shut it down. I don't think that was an INVOLVED action as all I did was respond to the intial request, not the ensuing argument. Just Step Sideways ^{from this world ..... today} 19:07, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

You conflicted my edit! ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 19:09, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

And you thanked me for it. Go team. Just Step Sideways ^{from this world ..... today} 19:20, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

No idea what the justification is of this use of rollback[3], not reverting a blocked editor in any case. Fram (talk) 19:11, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

[4] ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 19:14, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

For the lazy: it was an accident. I definitely misclicked rollback within a day of getting the permission, and I bet at least half of our rollbackers/admins have done the same. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 19:15, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Fun fact: although I work permission requests semi-regularly, I hate the rollback function, I use a script that blocks it (if you didn't know, admins have no choice whether they have it or not), and I use Twinkle instead. It's too easy to make mistakes with normal rollback. Just Step Sideways ^{from this world ..... today} 19:17, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

I hit a rollback button accidentally several times a week (much more often than I rollback anything), so I also use that blocking script, and rely on Twinkle for rollback. Donald Albury 19:28, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

When I got my admin tools rollback showed up on my watchlist. As I edit from my phone pretty often and mistaps are common, I immediately sought out help and installed a script to hide it before I got desysop'd for cause. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 19:33, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

This has happened to me before when I try to edit on my phone. Looking at a page history, the link to look at an edit/diff is right next to the link to rollback and I've misclicked. Luckily, you can rollback a mistaken rollback. I've stopped doing much work on my phone if it involves looking at individual edits. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 19:43, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

I am actually using a script which blocks rollback on my watchlist (the highest chance to misclick due to banners on top loading slowly) but not on page histories or user contributions. I have a global rollback, but I do not think this matters. Ymblanter (talk) 22:32, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

I use one to shrink the rollback button so that I am far less likely to accidentally click it. —Jéské Couriano v^_^v ^{threads critiques} 03:40, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

The remove rollback script is at Wikipedia:User scripts/List#Rollback/reverting. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 22:49, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

There is a gadget that will require a confirmation before clicking. NightWolf1223 <Howl at me•My hunts> 20:39, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

The best mobile environment on offer for Wikipedia editing (Monobook with the "responsive mode" option enabled) automatically turns on this confirmation in small screen mode. In practice, that means I get a confirmation dialog on my phone but not on my laptop. No idea whether similar features exist in other skins. —Kusma (talk) 21:39, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

I still believe there's an issue here. Makeandtoss appears to have a grudge against BilledMammal and ignored repeated attempts to de-escalate at WP:RFP/R. Would WP:Arbitration Enforcement be a better location for that thread? I'm asking for permission as WP:FORUMSHOPPING precludes me from bringing up the same topic at two noticeboards. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 19:37, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

User:Chess:You got it the wrong way around: BilledMammal seem to have a grudge against Makeandtoss (and Nableezy, and me, and anyone else who isn't pro-Israeli enough). I haven't seen Makeandtoss filling WP:ARB, WP:ARCA, or WP:AE with reports about BilledMammal, but I have literally lost count over how many times BilledMammal has reported his "adversaries" these last couple of weeks, Huldra (talk) 21:26, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

I would concur that BilledMammal has been demonstrating a bit of a WP:BATTLEGROUND attitude of late that is somewhat alarming. Granting them extra tools at this time and seeing them possibly mis-used is alarming. Simonm223 (talk) 13:45, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Well, that would be the third noticeboard you bring me into today. The claim that the respectful discussion at RFP/R was a "flamewar" is misleading. As for the other claim, are you really arguing that if someone filed a report against me in the past I am not allowed to dispute any of their editing behavior in the future? Makeandtoss (talk) 20:18, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

"Flamewar" may be a slight overstatement, but WP:PERM is not a noticeboard, and not the right place to bring up such concerns, valid or not. Just Step Sideways ^{from this world ..... today} 21:15, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Okay sure, if I have new relevant concerns I will open a discussion elsewhere; though I will note that PERM is listed as a noticeboard. Makeandtoss (talk) 21:40, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

@Makeandtoss: I want you to recognize that following BilledMammal to WP:PERM and opposing user rights grants is not appropriate in any situation. It wasn't a respectful discussion, you were told by an administrator to knock it off twice and kept going for days.

The correct place to bring up improper usage of permissions is at this very board. That's why I asked for a clear consensus over whether or not rollback was acceptable here and why I redirected the discussion to this thread.

Right now, you've made a non-apology and are insisting that because PERM is technically a noticeboard, it was appropriate to post there. That's not the right attitude. I would rather you acknowledge you were mistaken, and when you receive a warning from an admin in the future, to look at your own actions and correct course before a thread like this. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 22:56, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

I’m not going to get too involved in this discussion as doing so would probably increase tensions, but this discussion, regarding objections to my signing of an RFC with a timestamp, was opened by Makeandtoss a day before the objections at RfPP, with the same editors participating. Personally, I’ve considered them related. BilledMammal (talk) 22:35, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

The permission was granted by Just Step Sideways without commenting on the doubt that @Fastily: had just expressed. I stated my opinion there, gave examples of what I believe is misuse of the tool, and noted that I am involved in the area. (Despite what Chess claims in this make-trouble posting, Extraordinary Writ said nothing to me.) Then the conversation was shut down by Just Step Sideways with the comment that we should take it up on BilledMammal's talk page. However, BilledMammal was just being BilledMammal. My comment was to Just Step Sideways, who in my opinion should have looked at BilledMammal closer before granting this unusual power and should have undone the mistake when informed of how it was used. And should reply when their administrative actions are questioned (disagreement is fine). The issue isn't whether sock edits can be reversed—everyone knows it is allowed—but whether a protagonist in a contentious area should be given the ability to make mass reverts without looking at them in that area at all. In my opinion it shouldn't happen and I would never consider using my administrator access to the tools to do mass reverts like that (vandals excepted). I would look at the edits and keep what is good for each article, which was quite a lot in this case. By the way, calling that discussion a "flame war" is absurd. Zero^talk 01:22, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

@Zero0000: Then the conversation was shut down by Just Step Sideways with the comment that we should take it up on BilledMammal's talk page. However, BilledMammal was just being BilledMammal. What does this mean? You never left a comment at BilledMammal's talk page, could you elaborate why not? [5] The only comment is about the accidental rollback.

I also don't understand how this is a make-trouble posting. You and Makeandtoss clearly believe BilledMammal acted in error. We are now at the venue where that error can be corrected. Why am I, a non-admin, being forced to create a thread on the Administrators' Noticeboard to get you to properly discuss your concerns with other admins? Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 02:33, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Gimme a break. "Both of them should be told to knock it off." is not a request for discussion. Nor are your subsequent comments. They are an accusation and request for action, neither of which have the least justification. Zero^talk 03:05, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

@Zero0000: My point is that this comment wasn't the best idea. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 04:09, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

@Zero0000 I’ve always treated blocked socks edits as something that could be reverted basically without looking at them. Other people can look at them and restore the ones they want, which is what happened here, but the removals themselves are a non-issue imo. What I wish actually existed was a way to auto strike a sock of a banned editors comments on talk pages. The whole point of BMB is that, regardless of if they are good or bad, edits by a banned editors are by definition disruptive and can be removed. Somebody used a more efficient way to remove them, good for them I guess. nableezy - 05:19, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

It would actually be very easy to create a bot or user script like that - I no longer have the time, but you could ask at WP:BOTR. BilledMammal (talk) 14:30, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Incidentally, WP:PERM is by design a place where decisions are made over whether someone should be given an elevated permission. I don't see why that should exclude objections to the result when the case file is still there. The record is better served by keeping it together than by moving it somewhere unrelated. Zero^talk 04:31, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

The perm was granted already, there's not really a need to argue or continue the discussion there as opposed to a talk page or noticeboard. At this point, from my point of view, the only thing to consider is whether they have violated WP:ROLLBACKUSE, which it does not seem like they have (minus a misclick, which happens). So, until they do, it's best to just let it be with your original objections having been noted at the request. Hey man im josh (talk) 16:15, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

I agree, and I never had any intention of commenting on it further until Chess decided to make an AN case out of it. Zero^talk 02:57, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Please stop merging Mahsa Amini into Death of Mahsa Amini

Mahsa Amini article is going wrongly to merge into Death of Mahsa Amini. Merging these articles is wrong because both article are notable and specially where Mahsa Amini has received Sakharov Prize. I think a person who receive this important prize must have an article independently. Please stop merging these articles. AlijenabH (talk) 19:39, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

The merge is occurring due to the closure decision at Talk:Death of Mahsa Amini#Proposed merge of Mahsa Amini into Death of Mahsa Amini. Admins don't overrule consensus decisions on content. If they did, they'd likely be facing a recall discussion. You can try talking to the editor who closed the Merge discussion but it's unlikely to change the outcome of the discussion. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 19:48, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

That would be me, and they did, but I guess they were impatient, because they came here about half an hour later. I'm continuing the conversation at User talk:Compassionate727#Mahs Amini. —Compassionate727 ^(T·C) 23:12, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

CheckUser and conflict of interest VRT appointments, November 2024

The Arbitration Committee is pleased to appoint the following user to the CheckUser team following private and public consultation:

• TheresNoTime (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

In addition, the following administrators are appointed to the conflict of interest volunteer response team following private and public consultation:

• 331dot (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
• Robertsky (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

The Committee thanks everyone who participated and helped bring this process to a successful conclusion.

On behalf of the Arbitration Committee, Sdrqaz (talk) 01:24, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Discuss this at: Wikipedia talk:Arbitration Committee/Noticeboard § CheckUser and conflict of interest VRT appointments, November 2024

Request for Draft Creation: এ.কে.এম দুলাল ডিগ্রি কলেজ

Hello administrators,

I am requesting assistance with creating a draft article titled "এ.কে.এম দুলাল ডিগ্রি কলেজ". When I attempted to create it, I received a message indicating that the title is restricted due to blacklist criteria for Bengali language titles. This institution is a college in Ashuganj, Brahmanbaria, Bangladesh, and it aims to provide higher education to local students in a rural area with limited educational resources. Here is a brief overview of the college:

Establishment: February 2020 Founder: এ.কে.এম দুলাল Principal: আহম্মদ উল্লাহ খন্দকার Location: শরিফপুর, আশুগঞ্জ, ব্রাহ্মণবাড়িয়া, Bangladesh Affiliation: Cumilla Education Board EIIN Number: ১৩৯৬৫১ Facebook Page: akmdulaldegreecollege Motto: "Education is Power" (শিক্ষাই শক্তি)

The college was established to provide accessible higher education to students in nearby villages, where such opportunities were previously limited. The college’s mission is to promote modern and scientific education to create a knowledgeable and self-reliant society.

Since I cannot create this page directly, I kindly request that an administrator help with creating the draft or advise me on how to proceed. Thank you very much for your assistance. A K M Dulal (talk) 04:39, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

@A K M Dulal One thing that is necessary is to translate the name of the college into English, since this is the English Wikipedia. You'll also need to provide citations from independent coverage of the college in reliable sources. —C.Fred (talk) 04:42, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

There are similar educational institutions, like 'ফিরোজ মিয়া সরকারি কলেজ and বিএএফ শাহীন কলেজ,' which retain their Bengali names in English Wikipedia, indicating cultural significance. I believe 'এ.কে.এম দুলাল ডিগ্রি কলেজ' also holds local importance, providing essential educational services to underserved rural areas. I am also happy to include an English translation if needed, for example, 'A.K.M. Dulal Degree College.' Besides, I will ensure reliable sources and references to meet Wikipedia’s standards. A K M Dulal (talk) 04:53, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Article titles must be in English. You should create a draft using the English name. voorts (talk/contributions) 04:43, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for the guidance. I understand that article titles need to be in English, so I will create the draft as "A.K.M. Dulal Degree College." I will also include the Bengali name in the article introduction to honor its cultural significance, similar to ফিরোজ মিয়া সরকারি কলেজ and বিএএফ শাহীন কলেজ, which retain their Bengali names within English Wikipedia articles. A K M Dulal (talk) 05:12, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

@A K M Dulal: I can't tell what you're referring to – ফিরোজ মিয়া সরকারি কলেজ and বিএএফ শাহীন কলেজ do not exist. jlwoodwa (talk) 08:30, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

But they do on Bengali Wikipedia. @A K M Dulal:, if you want to write your article in Bengali please be aware that this page, and the instruction that article titles must be in English, only relate to the English Wikipedia. Phil Bridger (talk) 12:00, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

While you’re at it, please read WP:COI. 100.36.106.199 (talk) 11:41, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Samantha Crawford (soprano) page nofollow index help

I am hopeful someone can help me here. I have made significant improvements to the article "Samantha Crawford (soprano)", ensuring that it complies with Wikipedia's notability guidelines by adding reliable, third-party sources. These sources clearly establish that Samantha Crawford (soprano) is a notable soprano, with significant international performances, verified recordings by verified music labels, and media coverage. I’ve carefully reviewed the criteria for biographies of living persons and have incorporated independent references that demonstrate her impact in the opera and concert world. Could an admin please advise on the next steps to have the "<meta name="robots" content="noindex,nofollow,max-image-preview:standard">" tag removed? I would appreciate any guidance on addressing any remaining concerns about notability or sourcing. Thank you for your time and assistance. I have tried addressing this on my talk page but have received no answer, so hoping I'm in the right spot here. -EB Eshbowman Eshbowman (talk) 14:27, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Hi. What's your connection to the subject? There's certainly some promotional language in there that needs removing. Secretlondon (talk) 14:31, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

It will be no-indexed until it's marked reviewed by an editor with new page patrol. Please see WP:NOINDEX. As an aside, the article appears to be quite promotional. Do you have a financial or other relationship with Crawford? If so, you must declare a conflict of interest per our conflict of interest policy. voorts (talk/contributions) 14:38, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

I think the article should be moved to draft. I just took a quick spin and it's not ready for mainspace. A lot of references don't support the points being made, there were copyvios and too close paraphrasing. It reads still like a resume, not an encyclopaedia article. Canterbury Tail talk 16:15, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

And you must reply to the concerns raised on your userpage regarding undeclared paid editing before editing articles any further. I also note that concerns were raised 8 years ago (Special:Permalink/1257159884#Paul Appleby (tenor)) that you failed to address. These need to be directly addressed now. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 16:22, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Yeah. Wanting mostly to remove the noindex to allow search engines to find it means that they're more interested in the promotional purpose than encyclopaedic. Canterbury Tail talk 16:48, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Which, as it happens, is precisely why we use nofollow to discourage linkspam. —Jéské Couriano v^_^v ^{threads critiques} 17:54, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

noindex will be removed when the page is reviewed. I could be wrong, but I believe nofollow is built into the site infrastructure. —Compassionate727 ^(T·C) 00:25, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Closure request for Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive366#IBAN appeal

Would an administrator please close Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive366#IBAN appeal? I am not brave enough to test whether it is socially acceptable yet for non-admins to close discussions involving bans. —Compassionate727 ^(T·C) 22:24, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

There is a secret third option, if you are feeling brave.— Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 22:44, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Compassionate727, complaints that have been archived are not edited so closing an archived discussion would not be appropriate because, basically, it would be hidden from view and, as I said, archives are not edited unless it is to revert vandalism to them.

I would consider "unarchiving" this discussion and reposting the case here. But, regarding your main question, I don't think it's appropriate for a non-admin to close a discussion about imposing or lifting a ban or block although I'd like to hear from other admins here about this. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 00:51, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

At one point it was unarchived, but then someone commented at CR that this was unnecessary, so nothing was done when it was automatically archived again. In my observation, editors split about 50-50 on whether it is okay to close an archived discussion without first unarchiving it (usually, a courtesy note is left on the active page when leaving it archived). At any rate, I don't care about the implementation details, as long as someone closes it. —Compassionate727 ^(T·C) 00:57, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Well, if this query is not about a desired discussion outcome and more about your need for closure, then I think this request will not solicit any response from admins who review this noticeboard. Discussions on AN and ANI often get archived without any closure or action being taken. It's something you'll need to accept. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 03:24, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

With five people supporting an unban vs. two opposing, one of two things should happen: the ban be lifted, or an explanation of why the opposing side's arguments were stronger be given. I don't think it's fair to the appellant that a consensus to unban seemingly have formed, yet the ban never formally be lifted because no admin could be bothered to take responsibility for it. That is why I posted here. —Compassionate727 ^(T·C) 17:03, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

archives are not edited unless it is to revert vandalism to them. Based on what happened at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 444, I would say that usually they are not edited unless it is for vandalism. Rare for discussions to be closed after being archived, but it happens. --Super Goku V (talk) 04:05, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Super Goku V, I find this surprising. Do any examples come to mind right now? Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 04:31, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Other examples, not immediately. But I should be able to get a list of some discussions in the next 30-ish minutes. (Going to go digging at Wikipedia:Closure requests.) --Super Goku V (talk) 04:39, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. Consider this detective work, not homework. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 05:35, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Gotcha. Since this is would likely take half a day to type up, I will just list the results from Archive 1 and Archive 39 for Closure requests and some additional notes for the others typed up afterwards. (I was using the search results, hence the jump between multiple archives in the notes.) Collapsed for convenience. --Super Goku V (talk) 06:23, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Search results. --Super Goku V (talk) 06:23, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Village pump (proposals)/Archive 78 (Request) Taiwan/Archive 20[A] (Request) Notability (people)/Archive 2012 (Additional edit; Request) Pakistan/Archive 14 (Request) Talk:Circumcision/Archive 70 (Request) Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 444[B] (Request) Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1169(-1170?)[C] (Request) Other results: Request refers to an archive (of a archive?), but the closure does not appear to have been done within an archive. Request refers to an archive, but the closure does not appear to have been done within an archive. Later comments request multiple closures within archives, but it was declined. Request refers to an archive, but it was declined. Request refers to an archive, but it was not done. Notes: [A] Taiwan/Archive 20 is abnormal. Between 45 and 50 edits were made in March 2012 with the majority involving closing discussion. [B] Specifically un-archived when closed. [C] Discussion is abnormal. Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1169 has a version with the sub-topic closed and the original discussion still open when archived. Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1170 has a version with the sub-topic never closed and the original discussion closed. Unusual duplicate. Additional details: Archive 4: 8 requests with all being done. Archive 5: 6 requests with 5 done and 1 modified. Archive 14: 17 requests. Archive 19: 28 or so requests. Multiple done and a few not done. Archive 22: 58 or 59 requests. Multiple done, few already done, at least 1 not done. Archive 25: 20 requests. Archive 30: 30 requests. Total requests from Archives 1, 4, 5, 14, 19, 22, 25, and 30: 179 or 180.

I'm not sure of how exactly to interpret this information but I appreciate your efforts and I think some of our data-loving administrators will find it interesting, too. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 06:50, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Archive 444 was the first example mention, but that was a bit of an exception. RSN regularly grows to an unmanageable size, so restoring a near half megabytes discussion would have (and did) make the page semi-broken. It shouldn't be taken as any kind of precedent. Also notices where posted on RSN that the close(s) had taken place. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 12:31, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

But at the same time, there are closes that occur after a discussion has found itself archived for one reason or another. Wikipedia:Closure requests/Archive 22 is the best example that I know of with over 50 requests. --Super Goku V (talk) 23:35, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Like charlotte ^👸♥📱 07:13, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

• There's a consensus to vacate the sanction, but the other side of the IBAN opposes the idea. What's the play here other than to quietly allow status quo to remain undisturbed? I'd argue that it would be reckless to close that discussion. And as for closing archived threads, I've always felt that only archived threads should be closed since their archival indicates nobody had anything more to say meaning they're actually ready to be closed. 78.28.44.127 (talk) 00:22, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

  That would just allow parties to drag the discussion on indefinitely, avoiding a result. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 19:02, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

  I agree. While it is important to listen carefully to the other party's concerns, I think that properly stops short of giving them a veto. —Compassionate727 ^(T·C) 19:09, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Yasuke closed

An arbitration case Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Yasuke (formerly titled Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Backlash to diversity and inclusion) has now closed and the final decision is viewable at the link above. The following remedies have been enacted:

• Yasuke is designated as a contentious topic. Starting in 2026 and checked yearly afterwards, this designation expires on 1 January if no sanctions have been logged in the preceding 2 years.
• The article Yasuke is subject to a 1RR restriction for a period of one year.
• Eirikr is topic banned from Yasuke, broadly construed. This restriction may be appealed twelve months after the enactment of this remedy, and every twelve months thereafter.
• Symphony Regalia is topic banned from Yasuke, broadly construed. This restriction may be appealed twelve months after the enactment of this remedy, and every twelve months thereafter.
• J2UDY7r00CRjH is topic banned from Yasuke, broadly construed. This restriction may be appealed twelve months after the enactment of this remedy, and every twelve months thereafter.
• Yvan Part is topic banned from Yasuke, broadly construed. This restriction may be appealed twelve months after the enactment of this remedy, and every twelve months thereafter.
• Gitz6666 is warned that disruptive behavior will lead to increasing sanctions if they continue.
• Elinruby is subject to a one-way interaction ban with Gitz6666, subject to the usual exceptions. This ban may be appealed twelve months after the enactment of this remedy, and every twelve months thereafter.

For the Arbitration Committee, SilverLocust (talk) 22:55, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Discuss this at: Wikipedia talk:Arbitration Committee/Noticeboard § Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Yasuke closed

i want to create userpage about me

can you create userpage of Jean Ngatcha this is my name. Jean Ngatcha (talk) 08:22, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Jean Ngatcha You are free to edit User:Jean Ngatcha to tell about yourself as a Wikipedia editor or user, not necessarily to tell anything and everything about yourself. Please see the user page policy as to what types of content are acceptable (and not acceptable) for user pages. Writing an article about yourself is entirely different, and highly discouraged, please see the autobiography policy. 331dot (talk) 09:02, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Deleted article question

The articles Max Israel and Y.Chroma were created by a new account yesterday, but I'm almost certain that they previously existed and ended up deleted for some reason. Is there any way to get a look at the page history of a deleted article that ends up being recreated under the same name? I'm also pretty sure the files used in the articles were previously uploaded and deleted too. I think the articles and files were created by this account but don't have the required permission to access the page. -- Marchjuly (talk) 12:40, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

• I have deleted the former as it was identical to the one previously deleted for reason G5. For obvious reasons, I have also indeffed the creator of this version (who also re-uploaded the same images). Equally, I toyed with the idea of draftifying the latter article but I've now deleted that as well. Black Kite (talk) 13:02, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

  Thank you for checking on this Black Kite. Is there any way a non-admin can "check" to see whether there were deleted files and articles which were subsequently recreated under the same name? I tried the Special:Log, but it seems as if the recreation of the pages somehow "removed" any record of their deletion from the log. -- Marchjuly (talk) 13:24, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

  @Marchjuly when you look at the history you can see it's deletion history up top under View Logs for this page. McMatter ^(talk)/_(contrib) 13:37, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

  Thanks for that. I didn't know about that. -- Marchjuly (talk) 13:41, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Hello, Marchjuly, you can also search here, Special:Undelete, although it will only identify deleted pages with the exact title you are looking for. It will not help with variations on a page title. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 02:57, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for that bit of info. -- Marchjuly (talk) 03:02, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

Non-admins can't use Special:Undelete. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 03:41, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

Extraordinary Writ, I know it won't show deleted content but I thought it would show an editor that there had been a page at the specified target that had been deleted. It would show that a page had existed but was deleted, kind of like a page log would. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 05:01, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

Unfortunately it does not, but User:SD0001/deleted-metadata-link does something similar. jlwoodwa (talk) 07:21, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, it looks like I was mistaken. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 09:00, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

Seeking opinions: protection of the help desk and teahouse

Most of you have probably seen threads here or on the incidents board about MidAtlanticBaby (MAB for short), a long-term attention troll who targets the help desk and teahouse. They're the one that rapidly cycles through open proxies to repost their whine about being banned everywhere and blocked on IRC and not getting responses when they email the Foundation. They're banned from all those channels because any attempt to communicate with them is met with spamming death threats to the user, like this. Don't try to talk to them, WP:RBI is the only appropriate response.

For the past couple weeks they've been spamming those two new user pages. Look through the history and you'll see many instances of an IP posting a message in an alternate unicode font, being reverted and blocked, and a new IP restoring the message within minutes. This can go on for hours, and only stops if the page is protected, which of course means that legitimate new users also can't post to those pages.

Earlier in the week I set both pages to pending changes, thinking that this would allow new users to post through PC moderation but also starve MAB of the attention they crave. It seems to be working - they are active but have not tried to post on those pages - but at the same time there have not been many legitimate posts from anonymous users hitting the moderation queue either. Pigsonthewing asked on the Teahouse talk page to remove the protection, and other users have suggested that we should just let MAB run amok since someone has to revert them anyway even if their edits are paused in the PC queue. I'm on the fence myself if the protection is net positive.

I'd like to hear what other users think. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 14:42, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

I was actually just combing through the logs to look at who implemented pending changes, to start a discussion with them. I don't think pending changes really makes sense in this specific circumstance, since MAB's ostensible goal is to harass specific editors, and logged-in editors can see their posts through PC protection regardless of whether those posts have been approved or not, so PC doesn't really do anything to protect MAB's main targets. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 14:48, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

• I think admins should be free tho deal with MAB as they see fit: short protections, blocks, and why not pending changes protection? There is no ideal solution, and being flexible in responses is a way to go imho. My take on pending changes has always been that it takes out the "immediate reward" part of trolling...I actually let the pending changes review lag for some minutes before reverting; some people have short attention spans. Anyway: pending changes is another way to deal with him, I would just shorten the time of protection. Lectonar (talk) 14:57, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

  To be clear, I'm not opposed in principle to PC protection being used for this purpose (and certainly I don't think there was anything untoward with Ivanvector's use of it), I'm just unsure of the efficacy. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 15:08, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

  I didn't take it as being against pending-changes protection in principle; I just think that there's no right way to go about it, but also no wrong way. And as the WMF isn't moving, we are stuck with the instruments we have. Lectonar (talk) 15:13, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

• (edit conflict) As one of MAB's favorites, I understand the frustration in dealing with him. (Look at the > 100,000 byte edits on my talk page for examples.) I am pleased that he's found other ways to express himself while being saddened that others have to clean up his messes. What worked on my talk page was very brief semi protection combined with RBI and proxy blocks. Wish I had something better to offer. -- Deepfriedokra (talk) 15:01, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

I'm more or less in agreement with Writ Keeper. I don't want to go into too many details about how I normally try and deal with them, and unfortunately there's very limited ways to get admin coordination on the response.

I'm more concerned that this harassment can keep up for months and there's no support from WMF to get the lists of residential proxies they're using, e.g. vpngate and massblock them. That shouldn't be foisted onto individual communities and bot operators. There are other LTAs that use similar methods to harass people, including non-editors, and we really need to be able to shut that down. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 14:58, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Amen, brother. Amen. -- Deepfriedokra (talk) 15:02, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

I echo ScottishFinnishRadish's point that we need more support to deal with long-term abuse like this. It's time-consuming and exhausting for admins to handle, and this is clearly MAB's goal. Well, that and to normalise death threats. MAB has kept this up for literally months, if (perhaps) not years. And admins shouldn't have to deal with this garbage. Every approach I've seen so far has simply moved him from one venue to another, but hasn't meaningfully reduced the frequency. I think if we bulk shut down all VPNgate proxies, that has a chance of working. I don't think anything less than this has a chance, but I support any attempts, including Ivanvector's approach. We need a much firmer approach with MAB. --Yamla (talk) 15:07, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, I think PC is the least bad option here. 331dot (talk) 15:29, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

This is exactly what I mentioned on Meta for admin retention strategy, which includes more resources from WMF to support admins dealing with persistent, long-term abuse. OhanaUnited^{Talk page} 22:04, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Double amen on getting the proxies list. Ridiculous that we don't have it. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 19:44, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Putting PC on the Teahouse in particular has a detrimental effect on its target audience - new, inexperienced users. As I said in the original discussion, if used in the case described, it should be for hours at a time, not a month. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 17:22, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Indeed. MAB gets frustrated quickly and moves along. -- Deepfriedokra (talk) 17:24, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

The conundrum here is that if we protect for a short amount of time, or for a long time, MAB comes back within hours of the protection expiring. I agree that our goal here is to limit the disruption to new users, and I guess the question is: is it more disruptive to new users to have to submit their questions to a queue for approval (pending changes), or not be able to submit questions at all for a period of time (semiprotection), or to be frustrated by edit conflicts when MAB is active and spamming the page? We don't have a lot of good options here. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 19:11, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

I think pending changes works perfectly well for this and don't really understand the opposition to it. It's not like newbies posting at the teahouse get immediate responses. They can also survive not getting immediate posting access. But semi-protection for an extended period of time is a bad idea, imo. -- asilvering (talk) 19:25, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

For me, the issue is that they're normally reverted and blocked very quickly. Adding PC to that adds additional labor even when they're not actively trying to disrupt the noticeboards. I don't strongly object to PC, but I don't think it's actually benefiting us. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 19:40, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Hm, that's fair. I don't really feel like periodically approving some pending changes is a lot of work, but I see what you mean. I'll be the "don't strongly support" to your "don't strongly object". -- asilvering (talk) 19:48, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

A question in that vein: are users seeing a message that discourages them from editing pages under PC protection? I haven't been able to check, I'm on a corporate VPN. I can report that the message that logged-out editors get on proxy-blocked IPs is fairly discouraging. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 20:11, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Logged into my testalt – appears there's a list of info with the following wording:

"Note: Edits to this page from new or unregistered users are subject to review prior to publication (help link).

[Protection log entry for PC]

The latest accepted version was reviewed on xyz date. There are x pending revisions awaiting review.

The edit form below includes changes that have not yet been accepted. (show those changes)"

It's all listed next to an information icon, so no red warning signs or (excessively) giant text for what it's worth. I can't say whether or not that deters any editors, though. Perfect4th (talk) 02:10, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

• I know the edit filter is not a fix-all solution, but might it be useful in this case? --Floquenbeam (talk) 19:19, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

  Without going into detail, it's already being used. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 19:24, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

  I see. Well, in that case, (1) I would certainly defer to the judgement of people dealing with this user, but (2) if outside opinions are actively being solicited, I think I come down on the side of making Teahouse and Help desk more available to new editors, even if it means having to deal with more MAB posts. If we keep pending changes, asking more PCR's to watch both pages for legit questions might help. If we remove PC, then asking more admins to watch those pages and RBI might help. That's ... pretty useless advice, but it's all I've got. Floquenbeam (talk) 19:33, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

  I'm an administrator with over 11,600 edits to the Teahouse and it is definitely frustrating to deal with this driven individual. Rapid reverting and blocking is the obvious approach and trying to engage is an especially poor idea in this particular case. Personally, I find pending changes a clunky solution that may well deter new good faith editors. I agree with Floquenbeam that more adminstrator eyes on the Teahouse and the Help Desk would be a good thing, and if this conversation accomplishes that, then that is a positive outcome. Cullen328 (talk) 20:20, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

  I do not recommend engagement. It proved counter productive. -- Deepfriedokra (talk) 20:28, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

  (edit conflict) I thought I saw your face come up in the header yesterday. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 20:28, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

If possible, I immediately unwatch all pages under PC (I really, really hate PC) so I am no longer watching the Teahouse or the Help Desk. Certainly protection of any kind for newbie-facing pages like these should be as short as possible. If we are fighting a single troll, I expect they will sleep every now and then so protection should be not longer than 16 or 20 hours at a time. —Kusma (talk) 22:49, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

My suggested approach to this type of individual has always that the Foundation should bring a legal proceeding seeking injunctive relief. I do not know whether that might be practicable in this instance nor whether the possibility has been explored. Newyorkbrad (talk) 20:30, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

I admit to some curiosity about how this would be possible but it seems like a WP:BEANS issue to discuss here. -- asilvering (talk) 20:42, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

• I think we're in agreement here that protection on these pages is not ideal, especially not long protection. I'll lower it on both pages momentarily. Might I suggest that when MAB shows up again, short periods of PC would be preferred to short periods of semi? Or is consensus that we should not protect these pages at all and revert when needed instead? Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 20:33, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

  I think we should at the very least protect the pages for long enough to get them to go elsewhere. I don't think that needs to be a long time - 10 or 15 minutes worked for me last time. -- asilvering (talk) 20:41, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

  If we protect, it should be PC, not semi. Don't want to close the door on a newbie. That could have a lasting effect on the editor. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 21:00, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

  And we don't care about the effect on established editors? Johnuniq (talk) 23:18, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

• I emailed JKoerner (WMF) a couple of weeks ago after seeing Relaunch of the Community Safety Survey. I gave brief examples of abuse and wrote Asking "have you felt unsafe or uncomfortable contributing to Wikipedia" is not appropriate when such extreme abuse cannot be prevented. I received a nice reply but do not expect anything further. It is past time for the community to push the WMF. We need a statement that they exist to spend money on maintenance or on marketing. Johnuniq (talk) 23:18, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

  Do you think they have any money to spare? — rsjaffe 🗣️ 01:35, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

• (Non-administrator comment) Wouldn't it be wise to discuss further this wherever admins discuss LTA matters, i.e. maybe in a less public forum? Perhaps there's a chat or something? I'm not trying to prevent non-administrators from offering opinions, but it should probably be assumed that most LTA are aware of these noticeboards and the talk pages of the pages they're disrupting and are monitoring them to see what steps are going to be taken. The Help Desk was unprotected and the posts starting appearing right away. If WP:RBI is what needs to be done with respect to LTA, then even a discussion such as this seems to somewhat be giving the LTA what its wants. -- Marchjuly (talk) 00:30, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

15.ai behavioral issues.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

HackerKnownAs (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

RocketKnightX (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

15.ai (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

The article 15.ai has numerous issues which I have called attention to on the talkpage. [6] [7]. The article was recently subject to an edit war [8][9][10][11][12] which made it to DRN Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard#15.ai, however, the process has ultimately failed as after the moderator instructed editors to implement the change[13] as User:HackerKnownAs a clear WP:SPA [14] who demonstrates WP:OWNBEHAVIOR behavior[15] toward the article arrived and has reverted the agreed upon edits [16] [17][18] as well as reintroduced multiple problems to the article in terms of misrepresented sources as well as sources which are considered unreliable. The editor in question has characterized my removal of unreliable sources[19][20][21] as removal of well-sourced content followed by claims of insufficient citations is particularly concerning despite the fact that the sources I removed were declared unreliable per WP:WEGOTTHISCOVERED or in the case of Andrew Ng's The Batch, were marked as unreliable when the article was still a draft A large portion of the sources used are not reliable, notably The Batch, which appears to be the personal blog of Andrew Ng[22], but once the article was released from Draftspace the editor who is now vanished reinserted Andrew Ng as an erroneously flagged minor edit [23]. Likewise, at the recent request for protection the user has presented my conduct [24] as a large amount of nonconstructive edits. The AfD for the article was interfered with by WP:SPA vote-stuffing[25][26][27][28]. Other concerning events include the wholesale deletion of a talk page thread about potential WP:COI editing by a now-blocked IP editor [29]. Coupled with demonstrable evidence of off-site coordination in editing the article on 4chan (which is demonstrable in the archived 4chan thread used as a source in the article) and the apparent failure of the WP:DRN and the continued edit warring by User:RocketKnightX and WP:OWNBEHAVIOR from User:HackerKnownAs, I am raising this concern to the Admin Noticeboard. --Brocade River Poems (She/They) 00:33, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

I am currently away from my computer at the moment, but I would like to point out that it is very interesting that this user has conveniently omitted any mention of her accusatory, sanctimonious, and frankly alienating behavior (despite being a relatively new editor herself) that she has been called out for in the past. I will make a more detailed post when I get back, but I urge anyone reading this to take a look at the article’s edit history (and note the perennial participant of the persistent edit wars in the last few months) as well as her alienating comments on Wikipedia:Good article reassessment/15.ai/1 and wonder why she neglected to mention how she refused to elaborate on her unfounded accusations based solely on circumstantial evidence. HackerKnownAs (talk) 01:03, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

RocketKnightX seems to lack the sufficient maturity to edit Wikipedia, judging by the comments like this one. Ca ^{talk to me!} 02:07, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

I think this situation is more relevant to ANI than AN if you would like to move it to that noticeboard. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 02:54, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

+1. Thanks for summarizing the recent edit wars, the most recent seem to involve experienced trolling as well. Suitable for ANI. – SJ + 03:29, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

Yes, RocketKnightX and HackerKnownAs are tag-teaming to keep the article against consensus.

Note that all of HackerKnownAs edits are related to AI and 4chan, which is how this mess started in the first place.

See also SirGallantThe4th, the GAN reviewer, only edits are to chess topics and 15.ai. 180.129.92.142 (talk) 04:16, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

I do not know this person and I have never interacted with them. What are you people on about? Do the admins not see that these people are actively discouraging people from contributing to Wikipedia with this dishonest conduct? This kind of harassment needs to stop. HackerKnownAs (talk) 04:32, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

This is a tactic HackerKnownAs often engages in, accuse everyone of everything and see what sticks. (Also, you don't need to interact with someone to tag-team with them.) 180.129.92.142 (talk) 04:37, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

I have always attempted to be cordial when interacting with editors on Wikipedia. I have also tried to always assume good faith as per WP:GOODFAITH, but the OP seems to not have the same courtesy, as she feels the need to throw out repeated baseless accusations of COI and SPA editing to multiple editors (WP:GOODFAITH), repeatedly bringing up other editors' contribution histories and patterns (WP:HOUND), and having an underlying hostile tone in repeatedly questioning others' credibility and motives (WP:CIVIL). Also, possibly a violation of WP:OUTING (or at least getting close to it) by extensively tracking and documenting other editors' patterns and suggesting connections to off-wiki groups?.

I do not know what incidents you are referring to when you say I "often engage" in accusatory and underhanded behavior. I really am bothered by this entire exchange.

And to repeat, I do not know who RocketKnightX is and I have never collaborated with them. I have interacted with SirGallantThe4th only when requesting a GA review, and have not interacted with him since other than when the article was under GA review, as was expected. HackerKnownAs (talk) 04:47, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

> Also, possibly a violation of WP:OUTING (or at least getting close to it) by extensively tracking and documenting other editors' patterns and suggesting connections to off-wiki groups?.

So you admit you've engaged in off-wiki co-ordination? 180.129.92.142 (talk) 05:42, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

No, I have never engaged in off-wiki coordination; I invite anyone here to scrutinize my edit history. I mostly stay around articles that I find more comfortable writing about. There is nothing wrong with that.

I am frankly disturbed that this is even being suggested when I have made major contributions to several articles in my spare time. It seems hypocritical that OP dismisses IP editors' positions as inconsequential (as well as those of SPA editors), yet faces no backlash when these same "suspicious" editors support her position. There is a clear double standard happening here and I simply have not been paying enough attention to the politics of Wikipedia to point out every single time she has been doing this. HackerKnownAs (talk) 05:57, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

So, no violation of outing. Understood. 180.129.92.142 (talk) 05:58, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

180.129.92.142, this is the Administrators' Noticeboard. Just because this is an open discussion doesn't mean you can cast aspersions and accuse editors of misconduct without providing evidence. If this continues, you will be facing a block. Like a registered account, you must abide by Civility, even when discussing disagreements. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 06:11, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

Ok, understood. I will look for evidence. 180.129.92.142 (talk) 06:28, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

Like many disputes in Wikipedia, this is both a content dispute and a conduct dispute. I acted as the mediator for discussion of the content dispute at DRN. The content dispute concerned what should be listed as the status of the web site in the infobox. The DRN thread was Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard/Archive_250#15.ai. (The filing editor was then indefinitely blocked for conduct unrelated to 15.ai, and I continued the mediation because there were still editors in good standing who had a content dispute.) RocketKnightX was listed as one of the editors, and made a brief opening statement, but did not take part in further discussions until the other editors reached an agreement to say that the web site had been abandoned. The article was revised as discussed. At this point RocketKnightX reverted the revision and disagreed. I asked RocketKnightX if they wanted to take part in moderated discussion, but they did not answer. Since there was disagreement as to content that could not be resolved by discussion, I first asked if I should start an RFC, and then launched an RFC. The RFC is currently in progress at Talk:15.ai#RFC_on_Status_of_Web_Site. The content dispute should be resolved by allowing the RFC to run for a month. Robert McClenon (talk) 05:34, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

good one brocade make the brigading more obvious

the gaslighting in this thread is insane yall are why i left the server lmfao its screwed up Rin6626 (talk) 00:25, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

See Editor Interaction Analyzer on 15.ai.

20:29, 11 November 2024, RocketKnightX reverts 15.ai one last time and disappears.

23:27, 13 November 2024, HackerKnownAs returns from 18 day absence (last edit before that was defending 15.ai) and requests page protection of 15.ai. Then reverts, 17:13, 14 November 2024.

These two edit 15.ai when the other is absent.

See Editor Interaction Analyzer on Talk:15.ai/GA1.

SirGallantThe4th reviews 15.ai in 1 hour and 24 minutes, after 1 response from HackerKnownAs.

(start, <51 minute gap>, response, <33 minute gap>, end)

This is insanely quick, and is a sign of co-ordination. 180.129.92.142 (talk) 06:58, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

No, none of that is evidence. I've seen quicker GA reviews, start to finish—in fact, a recent one of mine, Talk:Checheyigen/GA1, took 29 minutes from opening to closing. I hope you're not accusing myself and the reviewer of off-wiki coordination? ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 10:21, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

Of course not. The difference being you're not a single purpose account. 180.129.92.142 (talk) 10:47, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

just so yall know, theres a discord server thats been trying to troll this community over the last half year trying to get this page removed by sockpuppeting and getting anyone who reverts it banned and the op (brocade) is in on it, notice the young account ages of the edit war actors and ip accs all over here Rin6626 (talk) 00:23, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

im replying with my ip cause i want to prove im not on an alt btw 174.110.109.110 (talk) 00:44, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

I don't believe you for a second, but email your evidence to the Arbritration Committee at arbcom-enwikimedia.org if you're telling the truth. 180.129.92.142 (talk) 03:00, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

I did think it was especially peculiar that editors are acting so hostile and trying to discredit people who are just trying to help Wikipedia by spinning up accusations out of nowhere (for example, the above IP editor falsely claiming that I am a single purpose account when I've received multiple thanks from various other editors for my contributions). I am not surprised at all that there has been a coordinated effort behind this.

This article has been treated as a WP:BATTLEGROUND with only one side consistently being the aggressor. HackerKnownAs (talk) 03:12, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

I have found this: https://wikipediocracy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=361116#p361116

It appears that this user in question (User:BrocadeRiverPoems) has a history of sockpuppeting/alting and virulently defending ideologically driven edits, particularly those related to Yasuke, while engaging in hostile and aggressive behavior towards other users who disagree with their position. I would very much like an admin to look into the disruptive editing patterns and possible sockpuppeting activities of this user, particularly in relation to the ongoing edit wars and harassment on the article.

This blatant dogpiling should not be tolerated on Wikipedia. HackerKnownAs (talk) 03:39, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

You're really good at steering the topic away from yourself. Point is, you are still reverting against consensus on 15.ai. 180.129.92.142 (talk) 04:12, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

I am certain you are part of the circle of sockpuppetry that was mentioned in the link above. You have been nothing but consistently hostile toward me and are happy to fabricate evidence if it means trying to discredit me, which is exactly what BrocadeRiverPoems has done as well. This behavior is appalling. HackerKnownAs (talk) 04:15, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

Where have I fabricated evidence?

As for some mysterious "circle of sockpuppetry", bullshit. You mean to tell me that SuperStain, Thought 1915, Ltbdl, Brocade River Poems, Aaron Liu, North8000, Sj, BarrelProof, DrawWikiped, and Cooldudeseven7 are all socks? If anyone has a "circle of sockpuppetry" it's you and Rin6626, a 4 hour old account who's only edits have been to make wild claims about Brocade River Poems, which you also have been doing. 180.129.92.142 (talk) 04:22, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Arbitration motions regarding Palestine-Israel articles

The Arbitration Committee has resolved by motion that:

Motion 1: Appeals only to ArbCom

When imposing a contentious topic restriction under the Arab-Israeli conflict contentious topic, an uninvolved administrator may require that appeals be heard only by the Arbitration Committee. In such cases, the committee will hear appeals at ARCA according to the community review standard. A rough consensus of arbitrators will be required to overturn or amend the sanction.

Motion 2b: Word limits

Uninvolved administrators may impose word limits on all participants in a discussion, or on individual editors across all discussions, within the area of conflict. These word limits are designated as part of the standard set of restrictions within the Arab-Israeli conflict contentious topic. These restrictions must be logged and may be appealed in the same way as all contentious topic restrictions.

Motion 2c: Word limits

All participants in formal discussions (RfCs, RMs, etc) within the area of conflict are urged to keep their comments concise, and are limited to 1,000 words per discussion. This motion will sunset two years from the date of its passage.

Motion 5: PIA5 Case

Following a request at WP:ARCA, the Arbitration Committee directs its clerks to open a case to examine the interaction of specific editors in the WP:PIA topic area. Subject to amendment by the drafting arbitrators, the following rules will govern the case:

• The case title will be Palestine-Israel articles 5.
• The initial parties will be:
  • BilledMammal (talk · contribs)
  • Iskandar323 (talk · contribs)
  • Levivich (talk · contribs)
  • Nableezy (talk · contribs)
  • PeleYoetz (talk · contribs)
  • Selfstudier (talk · contribs)
  • האופה (talk · contribs)
• Aoidh will be the initial drafter
• The case will progress at the usual time table, unless additional parties are added or the complexity of the case warrants additional time for drafting a proposed decision, in which case the drafters may choose to extend the timeline.
• All case pages are to be semi-protected.
• Private evidence will be accepted. Any case submissions involving non-public information, including off-site accounts, should be directed to the Arbitration Committee by email to Arbcom-enwikimedia.org. Any links to the English Wikipedia submitted as part of private evidence will be aggregated and posted on the evidence page. Any private evidence that is used to support a proposal (a finding of fact or remedy) or is otherwise deemed relevant to the case will be provided to affected parties when possible (evidence of off-wiki harassment may not be shared). Affected parties will be given an opportunity to respond.

Addendum

In passing motion #5 to open a Palestine-Israel articles 5 case, the Committee has appointed three drafters: Aoidh, HJ Mitchell, and CaptainEek. The drafters have resolved that the case will open on November 30. The delay will allow the Committee time to resolve a related private matter, and allow for both outgoing and incoming Arbitrators to vote on the case. The drafters have changed the party list to the following individuals:

• BilledMammal (talk · contribs)
• Iskandar323 (talk · contribs)
• Ïvana (talk · contribs)
• Levivich (talk · contribs)
• Nableezy (talk · contribs)
• Selfstudier (talk · contribs)
• האופה (talk · contribs)
• AndreJustAndre (talk · contribs)
• IOHANNVSVERVS (talk · contribs)
• Alaexis (talk · contribs)
• Zero0000 (talk · contribs)
• Makeandtoss (talk · contribs)
• Snowstormfigorion (talk · contribs)

The drafters reserve the right to amend the list of parties if necessary. The drafters anticipate that the case will include a two week evidence phase, a one week workshop phase, and a two week proposed decision phase.

The related Arbitration enforcement referral: Nableezy et al request has been folded into this case. Evidence from the related private matter, as alluded to in the Covert canvassing and proxying in the Israel-Arab conflict topic area case request, will be examined prior to the start of the case, and resolved separately.

For the Arbitration Committee, SilverLocust 💬 05:26, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

Discuss this at: Wikipedia talk:Arbitration Committee/Noticeboard § Arbitration motions regarding Palestine-Israel articles

Change to the CheckUser team, November 2024

At their request, the Arbitration Committee restores the CheckUser permissions of Spicy (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log).

On behalf of the Committee, Sdrqaz (talk) 18:55, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

Discuss this at: Wikipedia talk:Arbitration Committee/Noticeboard § Change to the CheckUser team, November 2024

Titleblacklisted page creation request

I would like to request the creation of Draft:○△□, to translate jawiki good article ○△□ (絵画). ABG (Talk/Report any mistakes here) 23:49, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

Done. —Cryptic 23:53, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

InfoWars link

Could someone with the permission to add and edit these links please change the link at the bottom of the InfoWars article from infowars(dot)com/contributors to infowars(dot)com/, because the contributors page doesn't exist at the moment. Thank you. Nythar (💬-🍀) 02:53, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

You should make a request at MediaWiki talk:Spam-whitelist. voorts (talk/contributions) 02:59, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

Well that's ... not how I thought this works. I don't want it whitelisted everywhere. Guess that's not possible then. Thanks. Nythar (💬-🍀) 03:13, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

The /contributors link is whitelisted everywhere. We don't normally whitelist domain roots for reasons explained at MediaWiki talk:spam-whitelist/Common requests#The official homepage of the subject of a page * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 04:33, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

Apparently we can use "a neutral landing page like the site's "about" or "information" page". Their /about page is online; I'll go ahead and request a whitelisting for that. Thanks Pppery. Nythar (💬-🍀) 05:02, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

Of note, there's currently a legal dispute over the new ownership of the site, so it may be a bit premature to make any changes to whitelisting anything. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 17:55, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

Well we still need a link to the site and the current one is broken. Whitelisting one page briefly is easily reversed if needed. voorts (talk/contributions) 18:19, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

Need an RFC closed

Wikipedia talk:Notability (species)#Proposal to adopt this guideline has been open for about a hundred days now, with no comments for the last couple of weeks. It's the oldest discussion listed at Wikipedia:Closure requests. It's a long discussion, but I don't think it's the most difficult, so please let me encourage you to write a nice summary for us. Thank you, WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:34, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

How did it go unnoticed for so long? 118.104.245.6 (talk) 07:32, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

I don't think it's gone unnoticed. It takes a long time to read a long discussion, and not everyone can set aside a block of time. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:11, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

I have ambitions to get to it eventually, but I committed to that mess of a discussion at Talk:International Churches of Christ, so that takes priority for me. —Compassionate727 ^(T·C) 19:14, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

Abusive message from ip user

Not sure if this is the right place to report a user, but I've just received an abusive message from this IP user –

There are no contributions on their page, so I can't figure out why they have done this?..

this was the message they left

Thanks – 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿 L1amw90  (🗣️ talk to me 09:26, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

The IP has only made a single edit but I blocked the 2600:1700:DF20:1A40:0:0:0:0/64 range for a month. People can change IPs and it does not matter who is behind the IP. Best to ignore them. The right place to report this is WP:ANI but here is fine. Johnuniq (talk) 09:52, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

Persistent IDHT and disruptive fabrication of Wikipedia policy

This post related to a specific problem, dispute, user, help request, or other narrow issue, and has been moved to the Administrators' noticeboard for incidents (ANI). Please look for it on that page. Thank you.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Southasianhistorian8 (talk • contribs) 17:17, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

Unban/unblock request for Albertpda

• Albertpda (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Albertpda/Archive
• Pinging @Yamla: UTRS checkuser-in-residence.
• UTRS appeal #94970
• Appellant is globally locked, which will make participation by appellant slow and cumbersome.

Here then it is--

I acknowledge that I'm banned on the English Wikipedia and wish to request WP:UNBAN. Here is my request to appeal the ban and I would like someone to post it to the appropriate area: "I sincerely request to be unblocked for the first time as I haven't been unblocked before, and be given a chance to return to contribute to the community. I understand that in the past I have engaged in warring edit and using accounts to evade to continue editing after being blocked. After mustering sufficient knowledge and experience, I have come to terms with the rules and acknowledge that I must embrace a serene approach in editing and resort at all cost to discussion when disagreements arise. I will restrain myself to the one-revert rule and embrace discussion. I also understand that abusing multiple accounts only complicates the matter and I will not sockpuppet under any circumstances. I will be very appreciate if I get extra help as a startup to further immerse with the positive environment.

If unblocked, I would start editing in simple articles related to sports and geographical locations, as these type of articles generally lacks controversial segments so it would be easier to get used to the editing process. If disagreements arise, I have read and know how to use the WP:3O to soliciate third opinions for a consensus-reaching process. I also read and understand WP:DR, WP:MEDIATE, WP:RFC and other policies and will strictly resort to and abide by these when disagreements arise. I will ask questions whenever necessary.

After all, Wikipedia is an environment of collaborative editing and positive exchange. I now understand this well. We strike to construct a friendly environment. I learn to understand and respect other people's stances on matter. Warring edit counters this aspect and should be absolutely avoided in my mind. When I was first blocked I was a completely new editor to a new environment so I have yet to foster any experience and therefore engage in warring edit without knowing that contested edit must reach consensus. I now have read thoroughly the editing process and the policies to understand what I must abide by to create constructive and positive collaboration. I have never been unblocked, so it is worth it to give me a chance to prove that I will be a great contributor."

Carried over -- Deepfriedokra (talk) 12:14, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

• tentative and hope filled support unblock.-- Deepfriedokra (talk) 15:07, 16 November 2024 (UTC)
• Is it confirmed that there has been no sockpuppetry recently? —Compassionate727 ^(T·C) 20:16, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

  I was hoping Yamla would pop in. He did not comment on this UTRS. {{checkuser needed}} to be certain. -- Deepfriedokra (talk) 20:31, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

  CU isn't much use here. The Albertpda account is  Stale, which would be expected as it's globally locked. I don't have CU access on UTRS and am not sure how that works but maybe that would be more helpful.

  I would be extremely hesitant to unblock this user even if CU comes up clear. The socking history is extensive and their edits are pretty much all disruptive, see the most recent sock listed at SPI for example. This doesn't seem like a situation where someone is trying to make valid contributions but keeps getting blocked for block evasion. I do not see the point in unblocking someone who's likely going to go around indiscriminately blanking articles. Spicy (talk) 13:36, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

  The CU data from the UTRS request shows that it is coming in from a spur.us confirmed residential proxy. The particular IP address range is hard-blocked on en.wiki. There's been no evasion from the IP address range, but that's a truism as it's been hard-blocked. Based on the UTRS CU evidence, I can't even be sure the UTRS is coming from Albertpda (but have no evidence it isn't). --Yamla (talk) 13:43, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

• Weak support per above. Given that the user has no recent sockpuppetry on any Wikimedia wiki, then the user might be unlocked soon. Ahri Boy (talk) 22:44, 16 November 2024 (UTC)
• I'm landing, with some hesitation, on oppose. I feel slightly guilty doing this because I cannot really articulate why, but I feel in my gut that unblocking would be a mistake. Something about the request… I don't know, it kinda feels like someone who knows what types of things they should say in an appeal but isn't exactly sincere. The fact that it can't meaningfully be demonstrated that he has repented of the sockpuppetry and disruption only exacerbates my concerns. I'm sorry. —Compassionate727 ^(T·C) 18:02, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

  @Compassionate727: I cannot rationally articulate my tentative support, so we are even. -- Deepfriedokra (talk) 18:10, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

  Reply to Compassionate727 carried over-

  "Thank you but you should or may have not also bring in the first two sentence that are not in the quotation marks, can you remove them from the request on the noticeboard, because it may make the request looks somewhat awkward. Can you kindly carry over my reply to Compassionate727 in the noticeboard as follows: Compassionate727, I'm really, really sincere about being unblocked. I really regret the edit warring I did and the subsequent block evasion. It's important to note that I have never been unblocked so why is giving someone a chance so hard? I can be easily blocked again if I infringe the rules again. Why would I take all this time to write the request and wait just to be insincere and blocked again? Anyone can mature greatly, please give me the opportunity to be positively productive. I first created my account 9 years ago. The primary reason for my block was because of edit warring. All the other accounts were blocked only because of block evasion. I addressed above how to avoid edit warring in the future, and especially I will restrict myself to the one-revert restriction. 9 years ago I was younger and not as clear headed. If you unblock me, you can either get a vandal that easily blocked after seconds (which is a very small risk) or a positive contributor who contribute positively for years (which is a very reasonable great positive exchange). I promise you with my hearts I will be on the latter side."

  Carried over by me. -- Deepfriedokra (talk) 06:08, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

• Noting Global lock has been down-graded to a global block. Hopefully, Albertpda can now edit his talk page. -- Deepfriedokra (talk) 15:48, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

Courtesy un-pblock for deceased user

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Hey all. Back in July 2022, I partially blocked JohnClarknew (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) from three articles that he had been editing in violation of WP:COI, including his disclosed IRL identity, John Clark (English actor). I didn't love making that block, as Clark was one of our oldest active editors (89 at the time), but there was no way around it. It came to my attention today that Clark died about a year after that. While he's far from the first blocked user to die, in other cases where I've seen that happen it's been someone who was siteblocked and not really part of the community anymore. Clark, though, was still an editor in good standing at the time of his death, would even still have been eligible to vote in ArbCom elections if he hit activity requirements. So given his 3,000-plus mostly-positive edits and the fact that the block cannot any longer serve any purpose, would a current admin consider lifting the block I placed? Thanks. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (they|xe) 22:12, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

Unblocked, will request glock. Is it norm to create a redlinked userpage for a deceased editor with {{deceased}}? charlotte ^👸♥ 22:16, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

I don't actually recall a time I've dealt dealt with a deceased user with a redlinked userpage, but I've gone and created one with {{deceased}} and a link to his mainspace bio. I'll add something brief at least to Wikipedia:Deceased Wikipedians/2023. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (they|xe) 22:25, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Deacon of Pndapetzim

Administrator Deacon of Pndapetzim has doubled-down on uncivil and canvassing behavior at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Dachuna.

• When the article was AfD'd, they took it very personally, as indicated by their initial response on their talk page expressing exasperation and questioning the nominator's motives (diff).
• Posted this patronizing comment suggesting that non-historians shouldn't weigh in on historicity of the subject (deeply ironic not only because I am a historian, but because the nomination explicitly cited high-quality historiography to justify deletion)
• Canvassed Ealdgyth—who, according to AfD stats, had not !voted in an AfD for over a year and has only !voted five times in as many years—to counter a perceived conspiracy of deletionists (diff)
• When confronted about this uncivil behavior, they respond by deleting it as trolling (diff)

Deacon of Pndapetzim recently increased their participation on the project after an extended lull in contributions. I think they should be admonished and instructed to relearn the relevant policies. ~ Pbritti (talk) 18:43, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

Pbritti is evidently very unhappy that I informed Ealdgyth of the discussion and how Ealdgyth responded. Ealdgyth is as far as I'm aware the main editor on medieval English religious topics. Pbritti seems to have come here trying to escalate things & create drama following a threat to do so that he made on the discussion page. Also, if anyone wants to explain what canvassing actually is to this user please feel free. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 18:48, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

Posting a non-neutral note seeking to affect the outcome of a discussion is canvassing per WP:INAPPNOTE. Your comments were also not very civil and anyone can participate in a discussion, notwithstanding whether they're professional historians. voorts (talk/contributions) 19:04, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

Nope. Read 'It is perfectly acceptable to notify other editors of ongoing discussions, provided that it be done with the intent to improve the quality of the discussion by broadening participation' That's what I intended to do and what I did. Not discussing this point any more, it's silly to suggest that one cannot inform other interested users and note their own concerns, esp. when the guideline page actually encourages it. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 19:28, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

(Lest I be extremely hypocritical, I'll note that I saw this discussion mentioned in passing on Discord, but participated on my own accord without being asked :p) That's a very select quote from the canvassing policy, and ignores the context of the rest of the page. Ealdgyth is certainly an accomplished editor in the field, but you informed her and only her in a clearly biased way and urged her to participate on your side of the argument. There's miles between that and popping in with a "Hey, there's an AfD in your area of expertise" without commentary. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 19:36, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

What?! Selective? It's from the top of the page my friend, summarising the most important points. If you disagree with it, go try and have it removed, then and there I think you will learn what the actual consensus about the policy is. If you are successful, come back. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 19:51, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

From lower down the page: Campaigning is an attempt to sway the person reading the message, conveyed through the use of tone, wording, or intent. While this may be appropriate as part of a specific individual discussion, it is inappropriate to canvass with such messages. See also WP:VOTESTACKING: Votestacking is an attempt to sway consensus by selectively notifying editors who have or are thought to have a predetermined point of view or opinion (which may be determined, among other ways, from a userpage notice, such as a userbox, or from user categorization), and thus encouraging them to participate in the discussion. voorts (talk/contributions) 20:00, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT vibes here, getting a bit robotic as well. It is perfectly acceptable to notify other editors of ongoing discussions, provided that it be done with the intent to improve the quality of the discussion by broadening participation Posting to Ealdgyth was not canvassing or vote stacking, Pbritti may not see it like that because of what Ealdgyth ended up saying but that doesn't change anything. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 20:07, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

• (after edit conflict) I'm going to repeat my comment I made at Deacon's talk page here "I have Deacon's talk page watchlisted, I was already aware of the AfD (I saw it in my morning reading of my watchlist over breakfast before Deacon posted on my talk page). I had planned to weigh in, but I had to feed farm animals and batten down the hatches this morning in front of a large storm headed my way." I'll further note I had noticed the prod notices and even before the AfD was filed, was predicting that one would be filed and had begun to look at the article during my overnight bout of insomnia (where, I also weighed in on Barkeep's talk page on a totally unrelated matter, thus confirming I was actually up at some ungodly hour of the morning), before Deacon posted on my talk page. Ealdgyth (talk) 18:52, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

  You proved nothing except that you only intervened in this AfD once prompted. Rather humorously, you even mirrored Deacon's unusual !vote of Oppose (rather than a typical "Keep") further suggesting that your involvement is reliant on Deacon's prompting. ~ Pbritti (talk) 18:58, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

  What I see from DoP: a mild mannered exasperated response to an AFD; the comment about 'historians' was not patronising; the 'canvass' message was just (just!) the right side of breaching CANVASS, but in any event the person who was targeted has said they were not actually canvassed; and I can totally understand why they removed your talk page post (which was patronising), but describing it as 'trolling' was inappropriate.

  All in all I'd politely suggest DoP take a deep breath in future when dealing with similar situations, but that's about it. GiantSnowman 19:03, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

  The comment about historians was absolutely patronizing and completely improper: an admin should not tell editors they can't participate in a deletion discussion because they're not specialists in a particular area. voorts (talk/contributions) 19:05, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

No-one should tell editors they shouldn't comment on a particular area, doesn't matter if they are an admin or not. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 19:21, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

• Posting templated 'warnings' on the pages of experienced users, it's patronising but trolling too surely, at least with a lower case 't'. What good can any experienced user reasonably expect except to arouse some sort of emotional reaction? Re the historian comment, no it has nothing to do with do not participate, it was a response to naive assertions about the historical issues relating to the talk. I did not act with any admin powers on that thread so I don't understand this obsession with me having the mop. I'm honest and sometimes tough in my approach to those things, I got my mop with that being a well established thing about me. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 19:14, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

  neither Pbritti nor i posted any templated warnings on your talk page - i don't generally do that, and prefer to use my own words when there's an issue, as i did in this case. i PRODed and nominated the article for deletion with WP:Twinkle, which automatically places notice templates on the creator's talk page. those are not warnings. ... sawyer * he/they * talk 19:18, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

  More than that, I explicitly avoided a template and anny of those garish warning signs, even offering my appreciation for your return to content work in my personalized message. ~ Pbritti (talk) 19:29, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

• I did notice the offering of appreciation, but it was accompanied by the 'warning' header and more trollish stuff, and I felt you were trying to escalate conflict, so I removed it and I would also remove other such comments in future if I felt the same way, it's my talk page I'm entitled to do that. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 19:40, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

  What, exactly, was trollish? That seems like a pretty serious aspersion. ~ Pbritti (talk) 20:02, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

• @Deacon of Pndapetzim Policy expects that administrators lead by example, and they are expected to be role models for the community and to be civil at all times. Having the tools means that your words and behavior are scrutinized more because you have measurable "soft power" in discussions. While WP:NOBIGDEAL has been cited by numerous people participating in RfAs, uncivil behavior has led to admins being desysoped. Accusing someone of trolling in response to good-faith concerns about your behavior and editing their comments breaches basic policies and guidelines. Fathoms Below (talk) 19:33, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

• Also the fact that the canvassed editor intended to participate anyways is irrelevant. DoP couldn't have know that when the message was posted. voorts (talk/contributions) 19:06, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

She wasn't canvassed, why are you proceeding with that notion like it's some established fact? Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 19:16, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

• I don't interpret his comment about historians as saying 'do not participate in the AFD'. GiantSnowman 19:07, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

  I think the statement speaks for itself: It might be useful if people here who aren't historians stop commenting on the historicity of the saint, neither of you know what you are talking about. voorts (talk/contributions) 19:09, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

Evidently not. The deletion discussion wasn't about the notability of this specific saint, not the historicity; that issue was being raised in naive and unhelpful way, that's why I suggested the issue be avoided. Make sense? Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 19:25, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

the crux of my argument is not about the historicity of the saint - that is simply one aspect i mentioned in the nomination. the crux of my argument is the lack of sources, i.e. non-notability. ... sawyer * he/they * talk 19:28, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

The historians comment wasn't about the crux. Honestly, I think that's relatively clear, but I've clarified now in case there was any confusion. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 19:31, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

• Especially patronizing, considering that sawyer777 (who nom'd) has worked diligently in the medieval saint subject area and has contributed FA- and GA-level content. ~ Pbritti (talk) 19:23, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

• i said i would disengage until further prompted, and apparently here's my prompting.
  i nominated the article for deletion earlier today after my PROD was contested yesterday, and during the discussion (& on user talk pages) Deacon has made comments such as:

• "this selective attempt to impose deletionist maximalism" (diff)
• "The deletionists going for the kill here could be emboldened to go after a lot more" (diff)
• "It might be useful if people here who aren't historians stop commenting on the historicity of the saint, you don't know what you are talking about." twice (diff, diff)
• "if you want to call yourself a historian" ... "I'm sorry if this hurts your feelings but this is a public encyclopedia used by millions of people and the lack of relevant competence is important" (diff)
• "I didn't want this discussion to have no input from knowledgable people & just be me and the two of you" (diff)

i left Deacon a message regarding his conduct, and he both edited my comment and replied in the same diff (edit summary: "rm trolling & ugly format, resp"), which changed the meaning significantly by cutting out multiple sentences. i restored my comment and linked WP:OTHERSCOMMENTS, and was reverted with the edit summary "rv, please don't troll or put ugly format on my talkpage. if you think your meaning has been changed remove the comment". that's not how this works. i am not imposing "deletionist maximalism" or "going for the kill" i just don't think this supposed saint is notable. speculating about my competence, accusing me of trolling, and editing my comments is creating a hostile editing environment. ... sawyer * he/they * talk 19:09, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

forgot one:

• "Regarding being a historian, I don't care if you're not a historian [...] I made the comment because you were saying nonsense things about something that is much more complex than you seemed to understand. Personally I think if one is editing articles on a project like this one should be [...] honest about where and how one can contribute competently." (diff)

i don't even know how to engage with this. ... sawyer * he/they * talk 19:42, 18 November 2024 (UTC)