Brukerdiskusjon:Бучач-Львів

Ласкаво просимо!

Здрастуйте!

Ласкаво просимо в Норвезьку (букмол) Вікіпедію!

Будь ласка, відвідайте наше посольство, якщо у вас є запитання.

Удачі, - 4ing (diskusjon) 6. okt. 2017 kl. 15:05 (CEST)

Sorry, I'm Ukrainian, not Russian. Please write to me in English, Polish, not in Rusiian. Thanks! Good luck! --Бучач-Львів (diskusjon) 6. okt. 2017 kl. 15:09 (CEST)

Sorry, my mistake! Please feel free to delete the message. - 4ing (diskusjon) 6. okt. 2017 kl. 15:19 (CEST)

4ing. There is nothing. Sorry - I can't speak Norsk. Thanks you for understanding! --Бучач-Львів (diskusjon) 6. okt. 2017 kl. 15:24 (CEST)

Welcome!

Hi!

Welcome to the Norwegian (bokmål) Wikipedia!

Please see our embassy if you have any questions.

Cheers, - Soulkeeper (diskusjon) 6. okt. 2017 kl. 15:14 (CEST)

Hi, I tried to make an Ukrainian welcome message template here: {{Ласкаво просимо}}, can you please check if it is correct? Thanks. - Soulkeeper (diskusjon) 6. okt. 2017 kl. 15:32 (CEST)

Your edits

Please don't edit the Norwegian edition if you do not master the language. Thank you. Asav (diskusjon) 7. okt. 2017 kl. 10:28 (CEST)

Bruker:Asav. Hi! I don't understand why I can't edit the Norwegian Wiki in general. Are you administrator? --Бучач-Львів (diskusjon) 8. okt. 2017 kl. 08:19 (CEST)

If you're going to make text edits in a Wikipedia edition, as you've done here, you obviously have to be proficient in that edition's language. Since you're not proficient in Norwegian, any textual changes you make are bound to be fault-ridden. That's why you're asked to abstain from them. This is a small wiki, and we don't have nearly enough editors to clean up after non-Norwegian contributors. Asav (diskusjon) 8. okt. 2017 kl. 16:55 (CEST)

Please abstain from using Google Translate. You need to understand Norwegian and be able to write Norwegian to create and write articles on Norwegian WP. You will for instance need Norwegian sources at least for Norwegian names and you will need to understand the rest of the articles on this Wikipedia to link to correct articles. You will also need to be able to read Norwegian to find Norwegian sources. One source in Ukrainian is not sufficient to base an article on. Right now you are creating stubs which someone else needs to check in full and they might as well create them on their own. Google Translate might help you to in part understand what is written in a language where you do not have full command and are unsure of your understanding, it is not an acceptable tool to write articles with and it is not even a safe tool to read a foreign language. ツ^ツDyveldi^{☯ prat} _{✉ post} 9. okt. 2017 kl. 00:44 (CEST)

Bruker:Asav. Please, tell me, what problems can you see in, for example, Terebovlja, Kopytsjyntsi, Jan Amor Tarnowski after my editions? --Бучач-Львів (diskusjon) 9. okt. 2017 kl. 08:14 (CEST)

Any other edits than text in incorrect Norwegian, such as images are welcome, of course. Eg.,the entry about Kopytsjyntsi contains an error if the town is indeed one of the three largest in the area. Asav (diskusjon) 9. okt. 2017 kl. 08:22 (CEST)

Bruker:Asav. Sorry, I don't finish editing Kopytsjyntsi yesterday. --Бучач-Львів (diskusjon) 9. okt. 2017 kl. 08:31 (CEST)

Dyveldi. I don't want to make mistakes and create articles with mistakes. Please, tell me, what problems can you see in, for example, Terebovlja, Kopytsjyntsi, Jan Amor Tarnowski, Volodymyr Tratsjuk after my editions. I suppose there aren't any sources about Kopytsjyntsi in Norsk. --Бучач-Львів (diskusjon) 9. okt. 2017 kl. 08:31 (CEST)

Bruker:Asav. Please, look at Kategoridiskusjon:Fotballspillere for FK Dnipro Dnipropetrovsk. Thank you. --Бучач-Львів (diskusjon) 9. okt. 2017 kl. 08:41 (CEST)

PLease stop this. We simply do not have the manpower to monitor and when necessary correct edits by foreign contributors. Again, adding images and the like is both okay and welcome, but textual edits are not. Asav (diskusjon) 9. okt. 2017 kl. 09:02 (CEST)

Asav. In articles Kopytsjyntsi, Terebovlja are any mistakes now? --Бучач-Львів (diskusjon) 9. okt. 2017 kl. 09:05 (CEST)

Asav. Why don't you want to invite anybody from administrators, at least 4ing? --Бучач-Львів (diskusjon) 9. okt. 2017 kl. 09:10 (CEST)

I will not prioritize correcting your text edits, and as stated by others, we have limited capacity for correcting other user's machine translations. On the other hand, your contributions should be assessed based on quality. So far, it seems to be at least as good as translations made by several active Norwegian speaking contributors. - 4ing (diskusjon) 9. okt. 2017 kl. 09:28 (CEST)

4ing. I rarely use automatic translation - you see it. I remember about Wikipedia:Ambassade. Text in Butsjatsj was example for Kopytsjyntsi, Terebovlja -- you see it. --Бучач-Львів (diskusjon) 9. okt. 2017 kl. 09:32 (CEST)

Please stop editing in the article space. You are not able to read Norwegian. You do not understand written Norwegian. You are trying to write in a language you do not understand. You are guessing at how names are transcribed and spelled in Norwegian. Absolutely all you edits needs to ble checked. Please stay on the discussion pages of the articles. Please be patient. The questions you have posted on discussion pages will be dealt with in time. Before providing answers all you edits in the article space needs to be checked. Right now you are creating extra work which we do not need. Please ask questions if you do not understand my English and what I write seems unclear. It is also very clear that you have some trouble with written English so please please ask and stay out of the article space. ツ^ツDyveldi^{☯ prat} _{✉ post} 9. okt. 2017 kl. 19:48 (CEST)

In this edit you broke a good link, when you changed the name of the football club til what might be the Ukranian name(?). You also entered a good piece of information, but all in all this would be less work for us if you wrote on the discussion page. There are rules for transcribing Ukranian names into Norwegian and you don't know these rules. (Neither do I) That means that you are most likely changing names into errors when you change them. If you keep doing this, you will be blocked from editing on no.wiki. This would be a bad solution, as you can contribute with valuable information, but this needs to go into the discussion pages, and then be entered to the article by people who know Norwegian. 3s (diskusjon) 10. okt. 2017 kl. 10:54 (CEST)

3s. Today I don't edit almost. I can understand how transcribing Ukranian names into Norwegian. I reviewed a lot of articles about Ukrainians and Russians in this Wiki before to start editing. I suppose I made some mistakes in articles about Ukrainians FK but I'm sure that I corrected a lot more mistakes. Good luck! --Бучач-Львів (diskusjon) 10. okt. 2017 kl. 11:03 (CEST)

There's no doubt that your edits are done in good faith. Nevertheless, you vastly overstimate your own ability to contribute text to the Norwegian edition, and as a consequence other users have to clean up after you time and time again. I concur with 3s that you'll have to be blocked unless you refrain from edits in the main article space other than adding images. I'm sure nobody wants to see that happen, so again, please cease this kind of editing on the Norwegian Wikipedia. Asav (diskusjon) 10. okt. 2017 kl. 14:14 (CEST)

Asav. I've stop editing - you see. Of course it is also very clear that I've some trouble with written English but I can understand you. I've add very little of text in Norsk. Asav. I can understand how to wright Ukrainians (Russians) letters Ш, Щ, Ч, Ж and others in Norsk that I basically did. I've stop editing although not in all agree with you. Sorry for mistakes. --Бучач-Львів (diskusjon) 10. okt. 2017 kl. 14:19 (CEST)

Thanks for abstaining. I have now moved Butsjatsj to Buczacz since this is what the town is called in Norwegian sources (nb.no with Nasjonalbiblioteket). I find that more than 200 sources use this name and in addition this is the spelling nobelprize.org uses for Shmuel Agnon's birthplace. This is typically where access to Norwegian sources beats all sorts of spellings. The article needs a lot of revision. This town was Austrian not very long ago and the town had a name written with latin letters, but wars moved over it and so did the borders and the spelling of the name depends on where and in which language the town was situated. --ツ^ツDyveldi^{☯ prat} _{✉ post} 10. okt. 2017 kl. 21:02 (CEST)

Dyveldi. Sorry but you made great mistake when moved Butsjatsj to Buczacz because Butjatj is Ukrainian town not Polish. And this territory, where Capratian croatian lived to beginning XI st. was occupied by Poland only in XIV st. I think it's nonencyclopedically to name modern Ukrainian towns in Polish. Please remove. --Бучач-Львів (diskusjon) 11. okt. 2017 kl. 08:26 (CEST)

Dyveldi. How old are your Norwegian sources? --Бучач-Львів (diskusjon) 11. okt. 2017 kl. 08:30 (CEST)

Dyveldi. About Agnon. Sorry I suppose our country is not known to almost Norwegians - at least there are very a little articles about Ukraine in NorskBokmålwiki. Sorry I suppose maybe you do not know the history of Halychyna (Galicia). Agnon was born in the days of Austria-Hungary, when in fact the power in Galicia (Halychyna) was in the hands of the Poles (you can see who was the governor), who called cities, towns and villages in their own way - Polish. And this tradition of non-Ukrainians (Poles, Jews, Germans) who were born in Halychyna there is still now.

And article need one revision - move to Butsjatsj. Please read f.e. Western Ukrainian National Republic in Internet Encyclopedia of Ukraine. (or en:Western Ukrainian National Republic, there isn't article about this Ukrainian state in NorskWiki now, and Den polsk-ukrainske krigen). I didn't add this information to the article about Butsjatsj just because I do not know Norsk. --Бучач-Львів (diskusjon) 11. okt. 2017 kl. 08:52 (CEST)

The sources calling the town Buczacz span from 2014 to 1858 with a nice distribution over the years. I am having trouble documenting that Buczacz in a few instances are spelled Butsjatsj and how to present it. Nasjonalbiblioteket has the most wonderful netsite https://www.nb.no/nbsok/search.nbdigital?lang=no where they have OCR-scanned more than 250 000 Norwegian books, most newspapers and periodicals. Most of the books published 2000 or earlier is readable from at home if you have a Norwegian ip-adress. Working from abroad you will have to make do with the bibliographical information about the book/newspaper etc. You are quite right we don't have much on Ukraine. Ukraine history really is a challenge since so much has happened through the ages. Of course Norway has a lot of history as well, but history has not rolled over our geography in quite the same way. --ツ^ツDyveldi^{☯ prat} _{✉ post} 11. okt. 2017 kl. 21:23 (CEST)

Can I read that your sources calling the town Buczacz? Are we living in 1930-s? I repeat almost of that sources was written by nonUkrainians. For eg. if DeWiki or EnWiki used your rules, then there would also be Buczacz in DeWiki or EnWiki... --Бучач-Львів (diskusjon) 12. okt. 2017 kl. 08:16 (CEST)

You will need to work from a Norwegian ip-adress to read most of the books in Bokhylla (nb.no). You will also need to be able to read Norwegian. In German WP they have 5 different spellings and in English they have 6. None of these alternatives are Butsjatsj. Swedish WP calls the town Butjatj (this spelling I also find in Norwegian sources), but the majority of Swedish newspapers the last 20 years calls the town Buczacz and only 6 uses Butjotj. Not one of them uses Butsjatsj (Swedish or Norwegian). This is Wikipedia in Norwegian and we use Norwegian sources to determine which name is used in Norwegian. --ツ^ツDyveldi^{☯ prat} _{✉ post} 12. okt. 2017 kl. 21:30 (CEST)

Did you forget that Buczacz is polish name not Ukrainian? I think your reference to the sources in Norwegian language is incorrect manipulation. This is only a formal reason, which has nothing to do with the Norwegian language and basically nonencyclopedic. --Бучач-Львів (diskusjon) 13. okt. 2017 kl. 08:10 (CEST)

As Dyveldi correctly says, it is Norwegian sources that determine how we spell names. This is not "incorrect manipulation" but the right way to do this. This discussion underlines what several people has said earlier: You do not understand the rules of the Norwegian language or how words are transcribed into Norwegian. As this is clearly the case, I will ask you to stop questioning Dyveldi's, or others, motivation for doing what they think is right in these kinds of situations. You clearly have things you can contribute to the Norwegian Wikipedia, but Norwegian spelling, grammar and similar subjects are not among those areas. 3s (diskusjon) 13. okt. 2017 kl. 08:34 (CEST)

3s. Yes, of course it's yours - Norwegian Wiki. But please tell me how we read -cz- in Norsk? --Бучач-Львів (diskusjon) 13. okt. 2017 kl. 08:38 (CEST)

3s. Then - according to your logic - we must write polsk Czerniowce or rumensk Cernauti, polsk Lwów...? --Бучач-Львів (diskusjon) 13. okt. 2017 kl. 11:16 (CEST)

I'm not going to have an opinion in this matter, but I think part of what the Norwegian editors are trying to point out is uk:Вікіпедія:Перевірність (Wikipedia:Verifiserbarhet). The edits has to be verifiable to a Norwegian editor, in other words they need to be understandable to a Norwegian. In practice that means that the sources have to be in either Norwegian or English, or if that is not possible, at least in German, French or Spanish. Most Norwegians don't understand any other languages. This is a matter of practicality. We need to be able to verify the sources. And when it comes to names, Norwegian sources trump all other sources, because the names are often (but not always) spelled in an uniquely Norwegian way. If the names are transcribed from another alphabet, like cyrillic, there is a specific set of rules for how to transcribe the names to Norwegian, which differs from for example English transcription; See Wikipedia:Transkripsjon fra kyrillisk and Språkrådet: Transkripsjon av ukrainsk. - Soulkeeper (diskusjon) 13. okt. 2017 kl. 11:38 (CEST)

I write a little, and why should I write with mistakes? --Бучач-Львів (diskusjon) 13. okt. 2017 kl. 11:38 (CEST)

I have no strong opinion either, just want to clarify a few things: If the name should be transcribed from Cyrillic Бучач, the correct Norwegian transcription is Butsjatsj (whether based on Russian or Ukranian shouldn't matter in this case). The letter ч is one of the few cases where we transcribe differently from the Swedes (they use tj, we use tsj). In the past we also used tj, so it is not surprising if this form is found in some earlier Norwegian sources. Buczacz is the Polish form (the combination cz is their way to render the tsj-sound). I find it quite surprising that this form is preferred in the Norwegian sources, as we usually follow the principle of cuius regio, eius scriptio (a principle I personally do not always agree with). So as long as the city is formally part of Ukraine I would have expected that the name in Norwegian would be the standard transcription from the Ukrainian name. --Wikijens (diskusjon) 13. okt. 2017 kl. 12:11 (CEST)

Wikijens. I did not think that would be so. Really it's the Norwegians business, how to call the city or other populated places, but this concerns Ukraine too, so I found it necessary to defend my position. Sorry (incl. so-so English) and please understand. Good luck! Takk! --Бучач-Львів (diskusjon) 13. okt. 2017 kl. 12:20 (CEST)

Cappelens Atlas from 2000 has Butsjatsj ([1]) as does Gyldendals from 1997 ([2]) and several others. I think we should move it back to Butsjatsj. --Wikijens (diskusjon) 13. okt. 2017 kl. 12:35 (CEST)

Wikijens. Tusen takk! But. Since I'm a "guest", I do not know the real situation in Norskwiki. Unfortunately, I have a negative experience in a similar situation in English wiki (unfortunately, then I've violated the rules), so I will not "fight" now and don't want you to suffer if remove Buczacz to Butsjatsj. I think this situation should be solved by Norwagians editors and I will take any decision despite my opinion. --Бучач-Львів (diskusjon) 13. okt. 2017 kl. 12:51 (CEST)

Don't worry, I am sure this can be resolved. I know that these subjects can be sensitive. It's better to try to resolve them in a calm matter and weigh the different arguments against each other. I was anyway not planning to state an opinion, just clarify some points that seemed to be slightly confused in the general discussion (especially that regarding transcription of names from Cyrillic). To sum up: Бучач is the name in Ukrainian (and Russian). Butsjatsj is the regular transcription of Бучач in Norwegian, used in most atlases of newer date. Butjatj is the transcription in Swedish (and formerly in Norwegian), used in some atlases of older date. Buchach is the transcription in English, but should be out of the question here even if there are probably some instances of it in some Norwegian sources based on originally English texts. Buczacz is the Polish form, which seems to be preferred in newspapers and some other sources. Here we might want to see which historical periods these sources are referring to and in general their context. --Wikijens (diskusjon) 13. okt. 2017 kl. 13:45 (CEST)

Please refrain completely from editing in the article space. You have edited less, but please don't. It works much better if you stay on the discussion pages. Things will not happen right away and probably not always the way you want, but what you write will be taken seriously. The Buczacz question will be dealt with. It is probably similar to the question of Venedig or Venezia. If you look at the graphs here Venedig was the only name in Norwegian sources till 1840 and was dominant till 1933. After that Venezia took over and today probably only texts about Merchant of Venice will spell the name Venedig. As of today Norway might in the future start using a different spelling of the name Buczacz, but this has not happened yet. Wikipedia is not in the front showing what might be, but what is and was.
-- Your edits on discussion pages is appreciated. You have some spelling mistakes, but you are quite fluent and perfectly understandable. Getting spelling and grammar completely right does not matter at all. Please do not edit what other people write on discussion pages and do not change their spelling. Similar would from the pronunciation have been spelled similar if it was a Norwegian word, but it is English and they have chosen to stay close to the original french with one m.
-- Editing on discussion pages can be a success. Thanks for drawing our attention to «von Pergen». I have because of your question changed the spelling of his name both on English WP and on our Norwegian article, se Diskusjon:Kongedømmet Galicia og Lodomeria. I will think very seriously about translating w:en:Johann Anton von Pergen to Norwegian. Your obviously know a lot about Ukraine and your tips on discussion pages are very much appreciated. --ツ^ツDyveldi^{☯ prat} _{✉ post} 13. okt. 2017 kl. 20:50 (CEST)