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Village pump (policy) archive  

This page contains discussions that have been archived from Village pump (policy). Please do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to revive any of these discussions, either start a new thread or use the talk page associated with that topic.

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Including women and children in statistics

Many articles concerning catastrophies do this. This is something the media does. I don't know if there is a policy exists that covers this, but shouldn't special mentions of women and children be excluded from these articles? It's purpose in the media is to touch people's hearts because women and children are seen as fragile, but I don't see a reason to say "200 people killed, including women and children" or "including 4 people under the age of 6". I remove cases like this and people tend to keep it that way because they agree, so I'm wondering if Wikipedia's policies would allow it. RocketLauncher2 (talk) 13:05, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

Hmmm...Wow...Great question. Part of the reason this is often seen is that traditonally it shows it's a worse disaster because women and children (and the elderly and disabled) would naturally be protected while men might be put in a situation more exposed to danger. I don't think it's always wrong for WP to mention this if the sources do the same thing. (Of course I know that now days women are out on the front lines as first responders along with men so that part is old-fashioned.) Borock (talk) 17:04, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
Are you also suggesting the same in reporting on war and terrorism? Borock (talk) 17:15, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
If the incident did affect a building that would be prone to a specific segment of a population, it likely makes sense to discuss that state. One case in point of recent include the Sandy Hook shooting (which took place at the school, so clearly how many children were killed would be a major point of discussion). On the other hand, for the 2013 Moore tornado, though the storm took out two schools, they weren't in sessions, so how many children were injured in the storm isn't a factor. But otherwise, if the disaster or event affected a random segment of the population, calling out how many children and women were killed is going to be done by the press but something we should not reiterate to avoid bias. --MASEM (t) 17:19, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

I don't think that mentioning the number of women is relevant. There's female soldiers and firefighters, not to mention doctors, so it's trivial information. I do think thet mentioning the number of minors is relevant. Now, in the case of armed conflicts, we must contrast the number of civilians with fighters. --NaBUru38 (talk) 17:52, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

To everyone here, my concern is that it stems from subjective viewpoints and that it wouldn't necessarily be neutral. Is there a reason to include woman and children besides targeted attacks, like Sandy Hook? Take Oklahoma City bombings for example. RocketLauncher2 (talk) 16:51, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

I get the issue with women here, but what's the subjective viewpoint you think is behind separating children casualties? postdlf (talk) 17:06, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
We certainly should not take the lead in breaking down statistics this way, but if the sources of the time described it in such a manner, it is meaningful, because it was meaningful to them. It may help to openly cite the source so as to put some distance between ourselves and the phrasing; we also should feel free in this context to use more old-fashioned phrases like the number of "souls" that perished, when that is how the sources spoke. Wnt (talk) 18:03, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
I think we can use more care if it clearly is a case where the source is trying to create emotion. Let's say there's an earthquake (An event that doesn't care about age or gender) in a poor region of a country. I can easily see reliable newspapers reporting how many woman and children were killed if only to create an implied emotional plea to the reader, but otherwise makes no attempt to justify that number. We should not be continuing that bias even though the numbers were reported as such. But on the other hand, if the earthquake's fatalities were high because one of the hardest hit buildings was a school while in session, then reporting on the number of children that may have died would likely be sensible following that. --MASEM (t) 13:09, 8 June 2013 (UTC)
I think it's reasonable to call out children or other special populations, especially if it's unexpected. You expect a workplace disaster to kill adults, so if any children die or are injured, they should be noted. If there were a fire at an all-male monastery, and a woman happened to be present and die, then that should be called out. One might similarly note the deaths of elderly people in a nursing home disaster, or wheelchair users in a tall building, the difference between workers and inmates in a prison disaster, or other such special situations. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:05, 9 June 2013 (UTC)
I disagree with removing this from articles, because it is an information. And more information the article contains, better it is. If it was removed, you wouldn't know that the victims / whatever included children and women as well. And even if that information may not be important for you, it may be important for someone else. Petrb (talk) 09:57, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Easy solution: do what the sources say. If the sources include a distinction for the number of women and children, or of a nationality etc. then we should include it. It's not up to us to decide the demographic interests of readers. The desire to not discriminate on the basis of "irrelevant" demographic information is certainly well-motivated from a position of moral universalism and equality. But it's not Wikipedia's place to enforce said moral vision. In the article on The Holocaust, we righly point out the numbers of people killed in different ethnic and social groups (Jews, Slavs, Serbs, Poles, Romanis, Soviet prisoners of war, blacks, the disabled, gay people, political opponents, Freemasons and Jehovah's Witnesses) and have articles covering the progression of the Holocaust in different countries in Europe, even though the principle of universalism and equality ought to suggest to us that each death in the Holocaust is the same, whether Jew or Gentile, German or not, gay or straight etc. The Holocaust is a very strong example of a case where we would absolutely not want to suggest that excluding information about background would be a good idea.

But it applies further. I've frequently seen Wikipedians attempting to erase national, ethnic, religious and sexual background from articles about people and events on the basis not of difficulty sourcing that information but on the basis that such information is "irrelevant". For our readers, more information may be perfectly relevant because they are trying to understand precisely the thing which we've deemed "irrelevant" because of our moralising. If we consider the demographic details of a crime "irrelevant", then we better consider deleting Violence against women or Violence against LGBT people or Violence against prostitutes and any number of other articles which focus on what some Wikipedians consider to be "irrelevant" details. Nobody put us in charge of deciding what factors are considered irrelevant or relevant; we should go with what the sources tell us. —Tom Morris (talk) 12:57, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Except that some reliable sources, at times, will include breakdown of deaths by some grouping that has no relevance to the actual incident, if only to demand sympathy from the reader. We have to be aware when the sources - even if accurate - are not approaching the topic clinically which is what we must do. (eg, this is basically "Won't someone think of the children?" -type statistics). There are cases where the number of (certain group) were involved should be reported but othertimes not, even if sources exist in both cases to document it. --MASEM (t) 13:18, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
The sources obviously consider it relevant, hence the inclusion. Why do you think Wikipedia should override the sources on this matter and not others? —Tom Morris (talk) 14:09, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
Because of systematic bias which we do have to be wary of and do not have to follow since we're just summarizing. Again, the argument I put forth is the usual "Won't someone think of the children?" issue. A report could say that drunk driving kills 1 in 100 children every year, gaining empathy from the reader, but fail to mention that the same number is true for any other demographic group. That's systematic bias that we should not repeat. --MASEM (t) 14:14, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
I think if the information is there, it can be included, unless it is shown that it really is non-neutral, non-verifiable, etc. If the reliable sources multiply affirm and do not deny that "5 men were killed", I don't see what could be non-neutral about the article also including that information: neutrality is about points of view; but if no reliable source has a differing point of view, then representing the only point of view cannot possibly be non-neutral. Maybe the sources do include the information merely because they have some non-ideal motive to distinguish groups of people without legitimate relevance, but just because the sources have that motive, doesn't mean editors here need that motive in order to reflect their claims: These editors just need a motive of being interested in not having verifiable, neutral, etc. information excluded. The statement "5 men were killed" contains more information than the statement "5 people were killed". If the first statement is equally supported by all the reliable sources as the second, then editors do well in not replacing the first statement with the second. --Atethnekos (Discussion, Contributions) 18:47, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
  • I don't think I've ever seen a Wikipedia article do this (at least not for long). Could you provide some examples to support this being a problem we need to worry about? It seems to me we're already doing it; it's editorial common sense unless it's contextually relevant. Andrew Gray (talk) 19:06, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Policy regarding articles on companies and WP:PROMOTION

I recently had a conflict with User:Mean as custard regarding an article on a company, Ansaldo STS. The issue was whether information on what a company does is essentially advertising their products and services. The user I was in conflict with was deleting large section of texts on the basis that is was WP:PROMOTION. I could see some of his argument, but disagreed with what I viewed as a hardline stance. Discussion on the talk page and the other users page failed to reach a resolution, and so I took the issue to the admins noticeboard [1]. As you can see I was deemed to be the party in the wrong. In fact the admin that reviewed the case was not even sympathetic to my argument that the article could have been tagged as being too promotional or have been editing to make it more WP:NPOV.

The issue that I take from this is that writing any article on a company and its products and services should not be so easily mistaken for advertising or even SPAM. If the products and services that a company provides are what make it notable then it meets the basic criteria for being in a wikipedia article.

I would like to understand what others think. I think that there is an inherent conflict between policies. On the one hand the issue of not making an article on a company appear as advertising versus the inherent notability of a company, which is the success of what it does and what it produces. Bhtpbank (talk) 09:36, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

It's not rocket science. When someone adds material to an article containing phrases such as "With over 150 years of history and innovation"; "dedicated to safety, efficiency, reliability, and sustainability"; "tailored to our clients' needs", then it all goes in the bin as there is clear promotional intent. . . Mean as custard (talk) 16:03, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
I'll agree with Mean as Custard. Anything in the first person is promotional and should go - for the simple reason that it is either the company itself posting (OK - a member or agent of the company...) or it's a copyvio (and very few company sites are compliant with NPOV anyway - that's not what a company site is for, is it?). 'Dedicated', 'tailored', 'solutions', 'innovation', all those are PR speak. There are many articles about companies on Wikipedia that do comply with NPOV. They are either edited by company staff so cleverly that they fit our requirements, or they are edited by neutral editors. Whichever, we've got good material (assuming notability, of course). Mean as Custard is very good at rooting out the PR speak. As are several others of our patrollers. You say "If the products and services that a company provides are what make it notable then it meets the basic criteria for being in a wikipedia article." - yes. But the article must comply with [[WP:NPOV]. No matter how notable the company or the individual, if there is promotion in there it should be removed. Even if it means the whole article. Someone else can write another one some time. Let the promo in, and you'll never be rid. In the time I've been deleting things myself (and previously when tagging), I've only thought Mean as Custard was wrong a couple of times. And I might have been, anyway... Peridon (talk) 16:33, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
So, are all the articles about TV programs essentially a sales and marketing tool? I think you are on a slippery slope towards having wikipedia remove significant content from itself. Biographies of living persons could also be considered promotional. As for everything written about The Simpsons ... I'll bet Matt Groening is laughing all the way to the bank, thanks Wikipedia!! Bhtpbank (talk) 17:17, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
I think you're missing the point. It's not what the subject is. It's the way the article is written. PR people use certain buzz words - 'solutions' being a favourite. I saw one article that was so full of them that I never found out what the company actually did! An article stating "BloggsCo offers its valued clients market-leading solutions for their little everyday difficulties" is going to be pure advertising, and anyone who can't see that probably works for a PR company. (I have found that they don't seem to see that they are talking a different language - I once sat behind two PR people on a train, and the only meaningful thing they said in half an hour was to fix up to meet for lunch on Tuesday.) It's quite possible to talk about a subject without advertising it. Whatever the intention behind the creation of the article. If it's neutral, it's neutral. If it's PR jargon, it's promo. These things can be re-written. You're welcome to do so. But in compliance with WP:NPOV. Some companies are inherently non-notable (while things are going well for them...). A company whose products are on millions of tables every day can still be non-notable - if the products carry the 'WeSellCheepa', 'BloggsCo' or 'MandysMart' brands for those chain stores, and nothing they make carries their own name (Frank Henning and Daughter, Inc) (don't Google - fictional example). Now, if the Henning company is hit by the revelation that cat DNA has been found in their dog food, and seven employees have been found to have the highly infectious and contagious Popsy virus, AND the company finance officer has absconded to North Korea, that's different... But that's notability. Non-notable = no article, no matter how written. Promo = no article, no matter how notable. Peridon (talk) 20:16, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
By "promo=no article, no matter how notable" surely you mean "no article in its currently written form"... If an article is notable, even if it is promotionally written, it deserves to exist. It can be cleaned up. Don't throw out the baby with the bathwater just when the bathwater gets dirty.Camelbinky (talk) 20:28, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
I think what Camelbinky means is: if the topic or subject (in this case a company) is notable, an article about it deserves to exist. If the article is overly promotional, that can be fixed by re-writing the article. Blueboar (talk) 20:41, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
I thought that tagging an article for re-writing, or simply re-writing would be acceptable ... however User:Bbb23 who was the admin that reviewed my case on the edit war page totally disagreed, and dismissed it. This admin completely came down on the side of User:Mean as custard. I felt this was harsh, and that some middle ground could have been found. Bhtpbank (talk) 00:47, 7 June 2013 (UTC)
Out of interest, I looked through the log of User:Bbb23 and found that he clearly dislikes WP:SPAM. He indefinitely blocked User:Naderaleebrahim for promotion, even though the account had only made FOUR (4) edits in wikipedia ... talk about harsh treatment, and WP:AGF. Bhtpbank (talk) 00:52, 7 June 2013 (UTC)
It's kind of you to review my actions and give me the benefit of your wisdom. Actually, Naderaleebrahim, had far more than four edits before I blocked him; you just can't see them. I'm mildly curious why you're even in this forum. Are you proposing a policy change?--Bbb23 (talk) 01:05, 7 June 2013 (UTC)
To clarify, when I said 'promo = no article', I was meaning in terms of what was there. Not possible futures. A new article would be treated on its own merits. I'm also curious about the point of this discussion. I'm not certain about where Bhtpbank is coming from - are they suggesting that nothing should be deleted or removed for being promo, if the subject is notable? Or is it that nothing should go whatever? Tagging for reworking is used in marginal cases, and may or may not work. Those tags seem to last for years. Information on what a company does can be neutrally worded or promotionally worded. We accept the former (I'm assuming notability here - without that there's no chance anyway), but reject the latter. And this is not only companies. It applies to individuals (CVs are usually regarded as promo even if neutrally worded, and articles about as yet unpublished first novels, films by unknown directors that are still casting, and so on). Peridon (talk) 10:20, 8 June 2013 (UTC)
User:Bbb23 to me based on his snarky remarks to User:Bhtpbank (especially I'm mildly curious why you're even in this forum) I would say a little less bitey from his remarks would go a long way. Even if you are battling spam, vandalism, trolls, improving the encyclopedia, or even just copy-editing... just be nice and talk to people as if you were talking to your mother (and she has a giant rolling pin to wack you across the head if you mouth off, and it's legal for her to use it). Just some friendly advice.Camelbinky (talk) 12:02, 8 June 2013 (UTC)
I disagree. I thought the first sentence in my post was snarkier than the rest. This is the wrong forum, and Bhtpbank is wasting our time, all because they disagree with the closure of a report at WP:ANEW. My last comment, blunt but not particularly snarky.--Bbb23 (talk) 01:48, 9 June 2013 (UTC)
These kinds of things usually just need some copyediting. "Ansaldo makes signalling equipment for trains" is useful, factual, informative, and encyclopedic. "Ansaldo provides solutions to customers" is not. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:09, 9 June 2013 (UTC)
To be clear, I came to this place to see whether the review of my posting on the admins noticeboard was a fair reflection of policy. I felt that the actions of User:Mean as custard were too stern, and that User:Bbb23 review of the case was not per policy. Deleting large sections of articles may be WP:BOLD but should be done via discussion on the talk page (it was not). I also felt that editing to make the article WP:NPOV was a better course. I just wanted to see if my views held any water or were baseless. Bhtpbank (talk) 00:57, 9 June 2013 (UTC)
Back to original issue: Well yes, although I would side with removing entire sections as being a better alternative than leaving them sitting around (for years in some cases I have seen) waiting for someone to clean them up be editing out the promotional buzzwords. Especially if just a long litany of products, since these tend to be the obvious way to get attention from search engines. They also go out of date if too detailed. Just explain what the company generally does in normal English, unless, for example, specific products get coverage from independent sources. My pet peeve now is all the companies who say they do "cloud platform solutions" for example. That can mean just about anything. I imagine a plinth with a jar that has some over-saturated solution, so has turned a bit murky. My guess is that in a couple years this terminology will either sound quaint or be unknown to most, with a new neologism that becomes more trendy. And clearly anything saying the company is "multi-national" "leading" or "award winning" etc. is a red flag, and anything uncited can be removed. W Nowicki (talk) 21:24, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

How best to explain one preferred spelling over another

I went to the article Muhammad hoping to discover why the spelling of The Prophet's name has been changed in recent years. I found nothing and asked on the talk page, where I was told the only spelling of The Prophet's name is Arabic, and the English spelling is a transliteration and no explanation is necessary for the change in the biography. I was referred to Muhammad (name). If I find what I am looking for, likely in a newspaper archive that I will have access to at a library later this week, I can add it to that article.

However, the "Mohammed" spelling is used several times inside quotes in the Muhammad article. Ordinarily this problem could be solved using "[sic]", but this is not an incorrect spelling. It was the correct spelling when the author of each quote spelled it that way. Is there some proper way to refer people to an explanation for this?— Vchimpanzee · talk · contributions · 18:02, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

Although I provided Vchimpanzee with the initial response referenced above, this is an interesting question to me as well.
The Muhammad (name) article explains, in the 'Etymology' section that the name "Muhammad" is the strictest transliteration of the Arabic spelling. Therefore that is what we use, because it's the closest we can get to the original, using our alphabet. Reliable sources from history use other transliterations, commonly "Mohammed" but also "Mahomet" and variants. So when we quote a source, we quote what it says, but when we refer to the subject in Wikipedia's narrative voice, we use the closest transliteration to the actual Arabic name that we have.
We generally use [sic] only when we need to inform the reader that any errors in the quoted or transcribed material belong to the person being quoted. However, there is no need to identify alternative spellings of 'Muhammad' as erroneous, because there was no historical agreement on the correct transcription of Muhammad's name until recently, as far as I know. ~Amatulić (talk) 21:44, 10 June 2013 (UTC)
I think what I'm looking to do, then, is identify the spelling as correct.— Vchimpanzee · talk · contributions · 14:10, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
Inserting a hidden comment in the article text (<!--spelling from original source-->)would at help least prevent editors from "fixing" it. Unfortunately I don't have any ideas as to how or whether to mark that in a visible way in the displayed article. postdlf (talk) 14:57, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
Consider wrapping the quoted spelling in the {{as written}} template.
—Trappist the monk (talk) 15:15, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
Thanks, I'll give that a try.— Vchimpanzee · talk · contributions · 18:43, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

RFC: Limit citation style choices to recognized guides

Please look at WT:CITE#RFC: Limit citation style choices to recognized guides and discuss whether citations in articles should be based on recognized guides such as Citation style 1, APA style, The Chicago Manual of Style, or The MLA Style Manual rather than ad hoc styles invented for a particular article. Jc3s5h (talk) 23:23, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

Partially disambiguated titles

User:Neelix's proposed change in WP:DAB has consensus. See detailed closure below. EdJohnston (talk) 16:00, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I propose that we establish a guideline stating that parenthetical disambiguation should render titles unambiguous and that, consequently, WP:PRIMARYTOPIC should only apply to titles that do not employ parenthetical disambiguation. For example, Orange (film) redirects to the Orange disambiguation page because there are multiple films that are called "Orange"; each film's article therefore uses a fully disambiguating parenthetical, such as Orange (2012 film). Similarly, Party (album) redirects to Party (disambiguation) because there are multiple albums called "Party"; the articles about albums called "Party" are fully disambiguated, such as in the case of Party (Iggy Pop album). It has been argued in certain individual cases (normally citing WP:PRIMARYTOPIC) that the most prominent member of a particular category of thing should hold the less-disambiguated slot, thereby employing a partially disambiguated title. In the majority of cases, partially disambiguated titles have already been rejected through local consensus, but there is not anything in the guidelines at present to explicitly prevent partially disambiguated titles. I propose that we exclude partially disambiguated titles from our articles because the purpose of parenthetical disambiguation is to disambiguate; parenthetical disambiguation that does not disambiguate does not serve its purpose. Neelix (talk) 15:02, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

Agreed. There are some projects and naming conventions that already specify this approach, but it is not a WP-project-wide standard. I think it should be; by the time a parenthetical qualifier is opted for, there's no reason to create a "qualifier hierarchy" -- the qualifier exists for disambiguation, so let them disambiguate fully. -- JHunterJ (talk) 15:37, 4 May 2013 (UTC)
I agree that a uniform approach would simplify matters and avoid unnecessary move discussions as to whether some particular instance of an already disambiguated title is the primary use for that type of topic. Discussions about primary topic already have a tendency to become unnecessarily combative over such trifling matters. older ≠ wiser 16:31, 4 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Since most people would expect New York (city) to redirect them to the article about the city of New York, it does. It should not redirect to New York (disambiguation). In other words, the primary topic principles apply to all titles, including titles of redirects with parenthetic qualifiers. If this proposal were to pass, an enormous number of redirects like New York (city) would have to change. And to what end, exactly? What problem would this solve? --B2C 04:57, 5 May 2013 (UTC)
    • Wow, that's an excellent point! I never thought of that. But if this is only a guideline, surely we could IAR that for the most important of cases? Or should we just state that there is a very, very strong preference for 100% unambiguous parentheticals, and put New York (city) as a counterexample? Red Slash 05:27, 5 May 2013 (UTC)
      • Even better, clarify the point of the proposal, which is to not name an article with a partially-disambiguated title. If phrased that way, New York (city) is not a counter example, since it's not the name of an article. It doesn't really hurt that it's a redirect based on primary topic. The nom asserts "It has been argued in certain individual cases (normally citing WP:PRIMARYTOPIC) that the most prominent member of a particular category of thing should hold the less-disambiguated slot, thereby employing a partially disambiguated title." If that's true, it does sound to me like a very bad idea; however, without examples, it's hard to argue what we need a guideline to avoid a potential problem. Does anyone have an example? If we find one or more, we can argue specifics as to whether it's a good idea or not. – I just noticed that Template:R from incomplete disambiguation says "This is a redirect from a disambiguating title that is too ambiguous to identify an article. Such titles should generally redirect to the appropriate disambiguation page (or section of it)." I don't know if this is a guideline, but it pretty much has the suggested intent already, since we're talking about titles that are too ambiguous to identify an article; but we could amend it to allow redirect to an article when the title is too ambiguous to identify an article but nevertheless has a clear primarytopic, like with New York (city). Dicklyon (talk) 07:08, 5 May 2013 (UTC)
    New York (city) occurs outside of Wikipedia[2]. Thriller (album) does not.[3]. So the guidance could be clarified to allow such "real world" qualifiers. -- JHunterJ (talk) 12:11, 5 May 2013 (UTC)
"New York (city)" is not a counterexample; it would not be affected by this proposed guideline. New York (city) redirects to New York City, therefore the redirect contributes no additional ambiguity. Anyone looking for a city other than the American city who types "New York (city)" into the search bar will rightly be provided with the New York City (disambiguation) hatnote at the top of the article, and would have been presented with this hatnote even if "New York (city)" did not redirect to New York City. This argument assumes that New York City (disambiguation) lists the other cities called "New York", which, unfortunately, it currently does not. Affected articles would be ones such as Lost (TV series) and Kiss (band). Neelix (talk) 13:10, 5 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Support proposal (although maybe tweak the wording slightly to make it more explicit). We have situations for example where Angel (TV series) is the article name for the 1999 TV series, yet other TV series called "Angel" also have articles, so this disambiguator could equally apply to these. The whole point of a disambiguator is to be unambiguous, yet this is not reflected in practice. See also Thriller (album). WP:PRIMARYTOPIC should apply to the undisambiguated title only, not to partially disambiguated titles. --Rob Sinden (talk) 07:50, 5 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Oppose (or possibly "Partial oppose", the proposal isn't entirely clear on this point): The actual article should probably be at a fully-disambiguated title. But I see nothing wrong with the partially-disambiguated title redirecting to the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC for that partially-disambiguated title, if one exists, rather than the "main" disambiguation page. Or, for that matter, with the partially-disambiguated title being a dab page in its own right, referenced from or transcluded into the "main" dab page, if there are a large number of disambiguations for that partially-disambiguated title. Anomie⚔ 13:24, 5 May 2013 (UTC)
    WP:PRIMARYTOPIC does not address partially disambiguated titles at all. If there's a primary topic, it goes at the base name (or the base name redirects to it). If it's not at the base name (or the target of the base name redirect), it's not the primary topic. Wikipedia:Incomplete disambiguation also deals with making partially disambiguated titles dab pages (that is, we don't, we make them redirects to the disambiguation page). -- JHunterJ (talk) 17:07, 5 May 2013 (UTC)
    The same logic applies. Anomie⚔ 21:00, 6 May 2013 (UTC)
    The same logic does not necessarily apply. -- JHunterJ (talk) 11:16, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Oppose - there is no need for a guideline on this. If a given article needs disambiguation (or further disambiguation), it is perfectly reasonable to propose moving it to an appropriately disambiguated title. However, once you set "rules" to deal with situations where a complexly disambiguated title is needed, you end up with those "rules" being enforced in silly situations where a complexly disambiguated title is NOT needed.... simply because the "rules" says so. (Or, you end up with "rules" that get so bloated with "exceptions" that they become meaningless.) Uniformity is not always a good thing, and disambiguation is one of those areas where uniformity can actually be more harmful than helpful. Blueboar (talk) 17:44, 5 May 2013 (UTC)
In what case would a partially disambiguated title be benefitial? Neelix (talk) 15:23, 6 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Partially oppose. Kiss (band) is an excellent example of a term for which people would not expect the band name to reside at the undisambiguated title, Kiss, but for which people would expect the title disambiguated only with the word "band" to go to this one particular band. Kiss (band) is also an example where there is only one other band by that name in the encyclopedia, allowing the other possibility to be addressed in a hatnote. I would suggest that a rule like the proposed rule should only be implemented where there is more than one reasonable challenge to any one term being primary for the disambiguated name. bd2412 T 20:05, 5 May 2013 (UTC)
    I think experienced Wikipedians might expect the band topic to reside at Kiss (band), but that most visitors to the topic article might have no expectation of where the article would reside if not at Kiss or KISS. Many readers are not aware of (and do not care about) our selection of qualifiers. Even for those expectations, I do not see the drawback to fuller disambiguation, as with it the experienced Wikipedians' expectations would adapt to the new policies. -- JHunterJ (talk) 11:04, 6 May 2013 (UTC)
I agree; it is only Wikipedians who expect particular disambiguators, not the readers for whom we are writing Wikipedia. Setting a particular number of alternate meanings before full disambiguation is required seems arbitrary. Neelix (talk) 15:26, 6 May 2013 (UTC)
I think you're both underestimating our readers. The disambiguators we use seem to me to be very easy for a reader to pick up on for anyone who looks things up on Wikipedia with reasonable frequency. Anomie⚔ 21:00, 6 May 2013 (UTC)
I don't think there's any underestimation. I think using more precise qualifiers where needed will be no less each for a reader to pick up, and the reader landing at the appropriate section of a dab page will understand what happened. -- JHunterJ (talk) 20:55, 7 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Support - at the moment only one project - which has two conflicting guidelines, one agreeing with WP:PRIMARYTOPIC and one opposing WP:PRIMARYTOPIC (WP:MOSALBUM, edited to conflict with "one" primary topic 18 months ago, only recently felt). Since there's no evidence yet that any other project has adopted such a guideline, and since projects such as WP:FILM and WP:FOOTBALL specifically confirm WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, the simplest solution is to undo the "PRIMARY ALBUM" edit from 18 months back as lacking any consensus discussion (even in the project as far as Talk page indicates?). As far as I can tell there's only 1 article affected anyway, even in WP:ALBUMS cannot find any example except Thriller (album) which does this. It appears to be the only single article on the whole of en.wp deliberately promoting "PRIMARY ALBUM" or any similar guideline. Until today I would have assumed Lost (TV series) and Kiss (band) are just accidents. In ictu oculi (talk) 04:55, 7 May 2013 (UTC)
Interesting, after Thriller (album), Lost (TV series), Angel (TV series) and Kiss (band) is there a 5th article which does this? In ictu oculi (talk) 05:05, 7 May 2013 (UTC)
Just looking at bands, there is also Poison (band) and Poison (German band); Bush (band) and Bush (Canadian band); Genesis (band) and Genesis (Colombian rock band); Oasis (band) and Oasis (1970s group) and Oasis (1980s group); Nirvana (band) and Nirvana (British band); Anthrax (band) and Anthrax (UK band); The Eagles (which redirects to Eagles (band)) and The Eagles (UK band); Rainbow (band) and Rainbow (South Korean band); Exodus (band) and Exodus (Polish band). There's likely more, but that's all I had time for. older ≠ wiser 15:53, 7 May 2013 (UTC)
A few more examples I've found, there are undoubtedly more.
older ≠ wiser 17:54, 7 May 2013 (UTC)
Thanks. At first sight there are some of these where ambiguous disambiguation could be a problem, and a few where a clearly derivative and borderline notable (non-encyclopedic) article shouldn't be given much weight: "A Hard Day's Night is a Japan-only EP from the Californian pop-punk group Sugarcult featuring a cover of The Beatles classic." generally redlinks and redirects don't count unless its clear that there could/should be a notable article, or if its included as a chunk in a main article. In ictu oculi (talk) 23:38, 7 May 2013 (UTC)
NB after that comment I moved to A Hard Day's Night (Sugarcult EP), doesn't affect the point however. In ictu oculi (talk) 23:56, 7 May 2013 (UTC)
Just came across another eyebrow-raiser. There is Rainmaker (song), which I'll grant is a pretty good song, but Rainmaker (disambiguation) lists no less than ten other songs with that title. Is it really that much better known than Traffic or the Harry Nilsson songs. I have at least added a hatnote at the Iron Maiden song article which had been missing. older ≠ wiser 12:57, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Partially support – if we can clarify that it means we don't like things like New York (city) as article titles but they're OK sometimes as redirects, that I'm OK with it. That is, if we're going to use a parenthetical disambiguator, we should not leave partial ambiguity; if we're going to have potential primary topic arguments over partially disambiguated titles, and we will, then let's have those arguments only affect redirects. For articles, less ambiguity is better. And yes, the unique contrary suggestion at PRIMARY ALBUM should be repealed, and Thriller (album) moved to Thriller (Michael Jackson album). Thanks for pointing those out. The fact that the RM at Talk:Thriller (album) was a "not moved" close is clear evidence that fanboys will continue to argue for keeping ambiguous titles on their favorites (which we're accustomed to on undisambiguated titles; but on partially disambiguated is news to me, and quite silly); this guideline will help move such outliers into line with sense. Dicklyon (talk) 05:29, 7 May 2013 (UTC)
Your amendment makes sense to me. Neelix (talk) 14:42, 7 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Concern: I am concerned that this will lead to multiple articles about the same song... Song title (band X), Song title (band Y), and Songtilte (band Z). I understand the need for good diambiuation if all three bands have recorded a different song with the same title... but I am talking about multiple bands performing the same song. We have hand numerous RfCs on this issue, and the consensus has repeatedly been against having multiple (by performer) articles. Instead we should have one single article on the song (which either contains a List of bands that have recorded "Song"... or points to a "list of bands" sub article.) Blueboar (talk) 17:03, 7 May 2013 (UTC)
I agree that there's an important issue here: we don't want separate articles on covers of song. What's less clear to me is why you think this proposal would open up that problem. If Song title (song) is already unambiguous, we're done; if it's only partially disambiguated, because there are two different songs by the same title (not different performances of the same song), then we need further disambiguation. It would probably be conventional to use the songwriter's or originating band's name for that, no? Consider Mother (song), Mother (Danzig song), Mother (John Lennon song). Dicklyon (talk) 17:18, 7 May 2013 (UTC)
WP Song already has a rule prohibiting covers from having separate entries. At least that's what I was told when it came up before, but I can't remember the link. In ictu oculi (talk) 23:33, 7 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Support. I once thought Psycho (film) was okay, but after further experience with these partially-disambiguated names, I'm convinced that (though they are helpful) they're not helpful enough to the reader to be worth the added complexity, confusion, and primary-topic discussions that will ensue. It's bad enough trying to decide if a topic is the primary topic for a particular title; adding to that trying to decide if topics are the primary topic for a particular title plus disambiguator is just too much. Powers T 02:40, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

Are we anywhere towards a consensus with this yet? --Rob Sinden (talk) 11:58, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

As far as I can tell, three users (Anomie, Blueboar, and BD2412) oppose the proposal because they perceive non-editor users as likely to expect particular articles to be located at partially disambiguated titles, and because full disambiguation adds a measure of complexity which they perceive as unnecessary. Seven users (JHunterJ, Bkonrad, Robsinden, In ictu oculi, Dicklyon, LtPowers, and I) all appear to support the proposal provided that the redirect clause Dicklyon refers to is stipulated, believing that partially disambiguated titles do not serve their purpose, and that discussions over what constitutes the primary topic for a partially disambiguated title are detrimental to the project. Please correct me if I have misinterpreted anyone's position on the issue. Neelix (talk) 14:20, 15 May 2013 (UTC)
If I understand Dicklyon's statement correctly, that e.g. Thriller (album) could redirect to Thriller (Michael Jackson album) should that be deemed the primary topic for "Thriller (album)", rather than being forced to redirect to Thriller (disambiguation) as in the original proposal, that's also basically what I said. I just phrased it as "oppose because X should be allowed" rather than "support if changed so X is allowed". OTOH, I may have misunderstood Dicklyon's statement. Anomie⚔ 17:23, 15 May 2013 (UTC)
We have a situation like that with Scream (film) and The Devil's Advocate (film) at the moment. --Rob Sinden (talk) 08:05, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
I tend to think ambiguous disambiguators should redirect to the disambiguation page, not least because having them redirect to an article means we have to decide which is "primary" for that context -- which, to my mind, partially defeats the point of avoiding partial disambiguation in the first place. That said, I would not want my opposition to that portion of the proposal to derail the whole thing. Powers T 14:47, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
This proposed policy/guideline will accomplish nothing if it allows Thriller (album) to redirect to Thriller (Michael Jackson album). The point of the proposal is to prevent second-tier "primary" targets. The situation that Dicklyon indicates is one in which no additional ambiguity is added; New York City should already have a hatnote linking to a disambiguation page listing other cities called "New York", therefore redirecting New York (city) to New York City creates no additional ambiguity. An article with the title "Thriller (Michael Jackson album)" should require no disambiguating hatnote, but it would if Thriller (album) redirected there. There is no point in moving Thriller (album) to Thriller (Michael Jackson album) if we do not then redirect Thriller (album) to the disambiguation page. Neelix (talk) 18:52, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
My impression is that most contributors to this discussion are on board with making this proposal part of our naming conventions. Am I clear to write what has been proposed into the guidelines? Neelix (talk) 17:00, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
Yes, please go ahead. To clarify my position about whether a partially disambiguated title should redirect to a disambig page or to an article considered more primary than another, my point is that it makes little difference, such that nobody will be much motivated to argue about it. Those partially disambiguated titles should never be linked, and users seldom type or search for titles in that form; and if they do, they'll end up some place and and be able to see clearly what they got, whether article or disambig. So I agree with Powers in principle ("I tend to think ambiguous disambiguators should redirect to the disambiguation page, not least because having them redirect to an article means we have to decide which is 'primary' for that context") except that I, and most of us I expect, would never bother to engage in that argument which is primary for the context, as it just doesn't matter much at that point; if people want New York (city) to go to New York City still, that shouldn't stand in the way of making this fix. Dicklyon (talk) 20:23, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
I'd say "please don't", with a message like that. Let someone less obviously biased determine consensus here. Anomie⚔ 23:34, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Well can we now progress move to accept/install this text? Seems pretty clear that Michael Jackson is above normal considerations such as DAB, but at least we can have clear advice for the other 4 million non-Michael Jackson articles. In ictu oculi (talk) 02:36, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
    Go ahead and install it. But I don't know what you mean by "Michael Jackson is above normal considerations such as DAB". This would apply just as much to Thriller (album) as to any other partially disambiguated title. Powers T 18:11, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
As recommended, I have installed the text here. Neelix (talk) 14:26, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
So, who's going to perform the Thriller (album) and Lost (TV series) moves? --Rob Sinden (talk) 09:58, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
I'd be glad to perform the moves. It will likely be somewhat time-consuming fixing the links, so any help anyone is willing to provide would be greatly appreciated. Neelix (talk) 13:17, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
Are there any bots? --Rob Sinden (talk) 14:49, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
Those would make life considerably easier. I spent most of yesterday manually performing the link changes after the Poison (American band) move. I have made a bot request here. Neelix (talk) 17:43, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
I don't see consensus support for the absolute language used in that insertion. I have opened a new discussion at WT:D to work out less absolute wording that does have consensus support, and removed the new section for now. --B2C 22:09, 30 May 2013 (UTC)
My revert was reverted, so I edited the text to not use the absolute language. --B2C 23:08, 30 May 2013 (UTC)
Then that edit was reverted, so I've deleted the section again. I'm going to ask for an uninvolved admin to determine what, if anything, has been established to be supported by consensus in this discussion. --B2C 17:22, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Oppose - I think that our goal should be to get readers to the article they want in the fewest number of clicks. Wikipedia newbies looking for a band called Kiss are going to go to Kiss → Kiss (disambiguation) and then click the link for the American or South Korean band. However, people who have used Wikipedia for a while and seen articles such as Anvil (band) or Blur (band) (where Wikipedia has only one band article and therefore "(band)" is the only necessary disambiguator) will guess that the article on the band will be Kiss (band). Some people will be pleased that they found Gene Simmons' band on their first guess, while others will have to take one more click to get to Kiss (South Korean band). If I understand the proposal properly, everyone looking for a band Kiss by typing Kiss (band) would be redirected to Kiss (disambiguation), and then have to take one more click to get to the article they want. Therefore, it seems to me that implementing this proposal would make it take longer on average for people to get to the correct article. Instead, I suggest we continue to use WP:PRIMARYTOPIC with good judgement. GoingBatty (talk) 23:32, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
I think it unlikely that the average user is the one you describe (ie. one who is going to type a parenthetical disambiguator into the search bar). In my experience, it is mostly only editors who take note of such intricacies within Wikipedia, and editors make up a small fraction of overall users. As outlined above, there are several more substantial detriments to identifiying primary topics for partially disambiguated titles. Neelix (talk) 15:55, 1 June 2013 (UTC)
  • Support unambiguous article titles. Kiss (band) may be a good title for a redirect, but it doesn't look properly encyclopedic at the top of an article, because people have the expectation that a title will fully describe the contents. It would be preferable to redirect that to Kiss (American rock band) and use that as the actual article name. Wnt (talk) 14:23, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
Of course this guideline would help readers. Our readers trust us, far more than we often realise. If a reader reads an article title that is "Kiss (band)", then they will assume that this article is the only notable band called Kiss. The purpose of this proposed guideline is not to get rid of WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, as you suggest, but rather to clarify that WP:PRIMARYTOPIC refers to non-disambiguated titles. We are aiming to get rid of "second-tier" primary topics (topics that are not actually primary but are treated analagously within a limited field); these "second-tier" primary topics are problematic for multiple reasons, as outlined above. If we consistently use disambiguators to disambiguate, we also reduce the number of hatnotes required on articles, which should only be necessary on truly primary targets. Neelix (talk) 14:48, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
"Our readers trust us", of course they do, the problem is that there are more important things they trust about us rather than the title of an article, for example the verifiability of an article--this is much more important than deciding if the album Michael Jackson Thriller is in its correct place. Your teacher left you to do a report about a the Peloponnesian War, would you trust Battle of Mytilene (406 BC)? I frankly won't, but unfortunately many people will do, and that's why people decide to falsify information here, even if it is the most trivial you can find. According to this proposal Kiss (band), for example, is incorrect because it is partially DABed, or in your words "they will assume that this article is the only notable band called Kiss". In fact, Simmons band may not be the only notable band called "Kiss", but it is the most notable of all bands that share the name, at least this is demostrated by their discography and the daily hits its article receive, even when it is already DABed (± 6,000), unlike the Korean band whose notability is based upon some references. I don't know if Kiss SK is notable in/out South Korea (they were a one year band, in terms of sales I doubt they sold 100K records in a year), but Kiss US is notable, not only in the US, but in the world. Also the Korean band may not be notable outside SK because "Kiss" is a registered trademark/trademark of KISS Catalog Ltd. in different countries and these girls will violate KISS Ltd. trademark rights (Registered under "ENTERAINMENT SERVICES RENDERED BY A VOCAL AND INSTRUMENTAL MUSIC GROUP").
Also, if we consider a casual reader (those who use Wikipedia sporadically) will not type "Kiss (band)" to search the US/SK band, they will type Kiss, and they will be redirected to a page with people kissing. If they read, they will see the hatnote about the DAB. In the DAB page this is clearly explicit: "Kiss (band), an American hard rock band" or "Kiss (South Korean band), a Korean female pop trio", then they can choose which band they are looking for. Now, if you refer to experienced users, those who will include the DAB, are accostumed to type the DABs. When I was a reader, before joining, this used to happen to me. In a few weeks after I started to use Wikipedia more I understood more, including article titles. Also consider the search bar, like Google, give readers the possibility to search an article with predictive text. If you type "Kiss", the first article is "Kiss", later "Kiss (band)" later Kissimmee, Florida, etc. If the problem is that "Kiss (band)" is not ambiguous in the search mode, "Kiss (band of South Korea)" should exist, at least, as a redirect, but not only this "Kiss (rock band)", "Kiss (American band)", etc. Also consider the probability of find an article in Wikipedia is better through Google than here, thanks to a) the predicted text, for example "bionic christina" rather than "Bionic (Christina Aguilera album)", and b) because Wikipedia appears in the top 20 results. Also, I'm concerned about this, if this is "for readers" why they cannot choose what's the best for them? AFD has its tag about the possible deletion of the article, split/merge as well, why RM discussions do not have their tag? If they find a move discussion, that's because the visited the talk page. To be frank, in three years I haven't seen readers complaining or worried about the title of an article being a "partial DAB", but because of A name is not B name, for example United States and not United States of America, or Kiev and not Kyiv. This proposal is arbitrary as I said, because Kiss (band) is incorrect because there's another notable band and readers may be looking for it, but Neptune is correct even though there are other notable articles the reader may be looking for. Tbhotch.™ Grammatically incorrect? Correct it! See terms and conditions. 00:28, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
If I undertsand you correctly, you are arguing that we have too many arbitrary move discussions and that this new guideline would generate more. This guideline would in fact do the opposite; there would be less arbitrary move discussions if this guideline was passed. If we do away with the concept of "second-tier" primary targets, that will avoid plenty of long, drawn-out discussions to determine which article should be the "second-tier" primary. We have enough such discussions to determine which articles are actually primary without having to proliferate this process on sublevels. Neelix (talk) 13:28, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
No, you misunderstood it. In simple words, why Kiss (band) is incorrectly placed when there are only two bands, but Neptune is correct, when there are many other articles with the same name? It is arbitrary to say that "People may not be looking for the American band" against "People are clearly looking for the planet and not other topics". Tbhotch.™ Grammatically incorrect? Correct it! See terms and conditions. 21:17, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
Perhaps you have misunderstood me as well. I am in no way saying that "People may not be looking for the American band". I am saying that average users are are unlikely to type "Kiss (band)" into the search bar; average users are far more likely to simply type "Kiss" into the search bar when looking for the American band. Neelix (talk) 14:25, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
Well, if the reason is that, first Kiss should not be about kissing, should be a DAB page. Second, the DAB page is already specific about this:
  • Kiss (band), an American hard rock band
  • Kiss (South Korean band)
Basically it is impossible a reader is not obtaining what s/he is looking for, because Simmons band is not Korean and Mini, Jini and Umji band is not a hard rock band. Also this "ambiguity" can be fixed in the DAB page without modifying links:
Your proposal is trying to fix something that it is not broken. Article titles are important but they are not indended to inform the reader what they are reading, that's the function of the lead paragraph, if not Barack Obama should be at Barack Obama Jr. or Barack Obama (President of the United States of America). As I told you, there are better things we should be worried more than semi-ambiguous articles' titles, at least for now. Tbhotch.™ Grammatically incorrect? Correct it! See terms and conditions. 20:19, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
I do not understand why you continue to argue against first-tier primary topics when this guideline only relates to second-tier topics. The main Kiss article should remain as it is; we both agree on this, and nothing I am arguing suggests otherwise. The fix you recommend (pipelinking the American band link) contradicts established guidelines on WP:MOSDAB and does not solve the problem that we are still going to be having long, unnecessary discussions about which articles are the second-tier primaries. It also does not solve the problem of the proliferation of duplicate hatnotes on non-primary-topic articles. Neelix (talk) 14:25, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Close requested

I requested this discussion be evaluated and closed, here:

--B2C 17:26, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

Before someone closes this discussion, should someone notify the impacted Wikiprojects? (e.g. Music, Albums, Songs, Film, Novels, etc.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by GoingBatty (talk • contribs) 15:04, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
All WikiProjects would be impacted; the ones you mention are simply the ones we have used as examples. I think it excessive to notify them all, and biased to only notify a few. Neelix (talk) 14:47, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

Did this close request get lost? I don't see any uninvolved admin coming in to judge consensus, but I also don't see the request on the noticeboard. Powers T 00:51, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

Apparently, the request was placed at the wrong location here, and that request was archived. I don't believe that anyone has posted a request at the correct location. User:EdJohnston said he was considering stepping in and closing the discussion, but he may not be interested anymore. Would it be appropriate for me to request a closure at the correct location? Neelix (talk) 17:55, 7 June 2013 (UTC)
I've tabulated those who support and oppose:
SUPPORT:
  • Neelix
  • JHunterJ
  • Bkonrad
  • Robsinden
  • In ictu oculi
  • Dicklyon (he writes 'partially support')
  • Ltpowers
  • Wnt
OPPOSE:
  • Born2cycle
  • Blueboar (doesn't want there to be a general rule on this)
  • Bd2412 (he writes 'partially oppose')
  • GoingBatty
  • Tbhotch
OPPOSED to disallowing New York (city):
  • Anomie
Preliminary comments. See closure below.
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
There's a sub-issue of whether redirects like New York (city) should be allowed, so long as they redirect to a specific target. I'm unclear on how that issue is resolved. I'll work further on this unless some other admin wants to take care of it. I'm not convinced that what Neelix proposed as an edit to WP:DAB is the clearest way to express the outcome, but something like that is probably justified. EdJohnston (talk) 22:29, 7 June 2013 (UTC)
This discussion has precedents going back to 2007: Wikipedia talk:Disambiguation/Archive 25#Incomplete parenthetical disambiguations. That discussion went against the idea of 'incomplete disambiguation', and it was the impulse for creating the {{Redirect from incomplete disambiguation}} template. It looks to me that the plain language of WP:PRIMARYTOPIC does not envision the idea of partial primary topics, and I suggest that those who favor partial primaries might want to put a consensus for it on the record somehow. The clearest form of the 'partial primary topic' idea is Born2cycle's comment above, "In other words, the primary topic principles apply to all titles, including titles of redirects with parenthetic qualifiers." That idea seems never to have been part of a written-down policy or guideline, though some articles are now sitting at 'incompletely disambiguated' names that seem to rely on such a principle. Based on the discussion, I think Neelix should consider adding an appropriate summary to WP:DAB. In another 24 hours I might be able to propose what I think the wording is, but Neelix should go ahead if he wants. Whether this is a strong enough mandate to go ahead with moves of individual articles I have no opinion on. In case of uncertainty the safest option is to open individual move discussions. I don't see any consensus to eliminate New York (city) at this point. EdJohnston (talk) 22:46, 7 June 2013 (UTC)
I've put a closure box on the discussion above, but haven't written the final message yet. Will try to finish by 23:00 UTC on 8 June. EdJohnston (talk) 23:10, 7 June 2013 (UTC)
Closing: I'm acting on the request that was made at WP:AN for an uninvolved admin to close this. Neelix's proposed change to WP:DAB fairly represents the consensus in this VPP discussion. I encourage him to go ahead with that change. There is also a consensus to allow New York (city) to continue to serve as a redirect to New York City. The opinions in the above thread are not strong enough by themselves to decide the fate of Thriller (album) or certain other articles that might be construed to rely upon 'second-tier primary topics.' That's because the size of the turnout and the margin of approval limits the force of this verdict. In case of uncertainty the safest option is to open individual move discussions. EdJohnston (talk) 15:58, 8 June 2013 (UTC)
I'm a little confused. You link to this saying it has consensus, except that it presupposes that Thriller (album) must redirect to Thriller (disambiguation) rather than Thriller (Michael Jackson album), which you say does not have consensus. This presupposition can be seen clearly in an earlier revision of Neelix's change, and I note that Neelix has acted on that presupposition, e.g. here. The presupposition would also require New York (city) to redirect to New York (disambiguation) rather than to the article New York City were that article to be at a title such as "New York (US city)" instead. Anomie⚔ 16:22, 8 June 2013 (UTC)
There is a strong enough consensus to change the language of WP:DAB but it is not strong enough to perform moves on a lot of the articles mentioned in the discussion. If you also want to get all the disputed articles moved, open an official RFC, get it listed at WP:CENT, and get a big turnout. The disputed articles might not be there due to 'second-tier primary topic' reasoning, they might be there for other reasons, known only to those who participated in the individual RMs. This could be discovered by a wider discussion. EdJohnston (talk) 18:04, 8 June 2013 (UTC)
The above discussion determined that a particularly disambiguated term shouldn't serve as an article's title, which doesn't mean that one mustn't redirect to an article.
However, if this truly has consensus (and I don't assert otherwise), Thriller (album) should redirect to Thriller (Michael Jackson album) instead of functioning as the article's title. An exception would swallow the rule (as this is exactly the sort of situation that the change is intended to address — one in which an article occupies a partially disambiguated title because it's considered much more prominent than other topics to which said title could refer). —David Levy 02:57, 10 June 2013 (UTC)
@David Levy: If your reading of the above discussion is correct, then a move of Thriller (album) to Thriller (Michael Jackson album) is consistent with the revised guideline. Someone could try doing that move without a WP:RM discussion but it risks being reverted. As a discussion closer I only close individual discussions. I don't have the authority to make everything consistent regarding article titles. EdJohnston (talk) 23:04, 10 June 2013 (UTC)
I'm not suggesting that it necessarily would be prudent to rename the article without a WP:RM discussion. I'm noting that I see no basis for an exception in that case. Thriller (album) is a textbook example of the type of article title now contraindicated, so if there isn't consensus to change it (or other article titles along the same lines), that calls into question the consensus apparently established above. (This is hypothetical, of course; I'm not implying that I believe it to be so.) —David Levy 00:45, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
The discussion above specifically discussed Thriller (album) and consensus was that such articles should be moved to fully disambiguating titles. I expect that the article will be moved to Thriller (Michael Jackson album) eventually, but there are a lot of articles to go through and these kinds of moves take hours to complete due to the necessity of switching the corresponding links. Also, New York (city) is not a partially disambiguating title; there are no other cities called "New York", therefore it is a fully disambiguating title. It is therefore quite reasonable for it to redirect to New York City. Angel (TV series), however, is a partially disambiguating title and should therefore redirect to a disambiguation page. Neelix (talk) 20:25, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
I agree that based upon the above discussion's outcome, the article should be renamed Thriller (Michael Jackson album). But this does not mean that Thriller (album) should become a redirect to the Thriller disambiguation page, which would be extremely counterproductive (because an overwhelming majority of persons arriving at Thriller (album) seek the article about the Michael Jackson album).
The agreed-upon change is to stop using partially disambiguated terms as article titles. This has no bearing on the resultant redirects' targets. —David Levy 22:20, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
(edit conflict) "due to the necessity of switching the corresponding links" is exactly the sort of thing I'm concerned about. If the redirect at the old title continues to point to the same article at a better title, there's no "necessity" at all. Forcing the redirect to point elsewhere is the part that doesn't seem to have consensus here. Anomie⚔ 22:21, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
It wasn't even mentioned in the proposal. Neelix may feel that it was implied, but I see no evidence that this was widely understood. You inferred that Neelix might have had that in mind (noting that "the proposal isn't entirely clear on this point") and expressed support on the condition that this element be excluded. Others appear to have been under the impression that no such change was even under consideration. —David Levy 22:30, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

Objection

I've explained my objection to the above finding of "consensus" here: Wikipedia talk:Disambiguation#Objection. --B2C 00:31, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

Policy Change (Images of minors)

I would like to propose that there is a presumption to delete images of people who are clearly under majority age where there is doubtful sourcing or no formal indication of an appropriate release from an appropriate supervisory adult.

This policy to change to apply to images uploaded after July 1st 2013.

Sfan00 IMG (talk) 11:37, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

Some issues:
  1. Define 'majority age'. In which country are we talking about? Britain: where you can join the army at 16 but cannot vote? America: where you can't drink until 21? For it to be a useful policy, we need to turn "under majority age" into an actual number.
  2. Are you referring to images of people who are currently under age or people who were under age when the photograph was taken? For instance, this photo shows Michael Jackson age 14. If someone were to find and upload a similarly old picture of the Jackson 5, would there be an issue there?
—Tom Morris (talk) 13:11, 30 May 2013 (UTC)
On point 1, majority age as defined by reference to appropriate community standards, in the UK this is typically 18. I would have no objection to defining to defining 18 as an upper limit, the wording 'clearly under majority age' was intended to say that the proposed policy change related to images that were clearly younger teens or minors, as opposed to images of say college students.
On point 2, The intention would be that the policy would apply to subjects who at the instance of the image being uploaded, would be clearly under majority age, at the time of upload. It would not apply to images where the photo subject was of someone under majority age (when photo created), but who is now over majority age and thus capable of objecting through appropriate process...

Some additional points,

  • This policy change would not be intended to apply where :
    • The image is uploaded by someone over majority age (and they are the subject of the photo). It would be unreasonable to bar uploaders from putting their own images (assuming the meet other Wikipedia policy requirements)
    • Images of high-profile figures, where the image is from verifiable 'official' sources, or has been released by official agencies ( such as photos released as part of law enforcement investigations for example)

Does this help? Sfan00 IMG (talk) 17:33, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

because obviously filth like this must be kept off the project
Um what? Doesn't apply when the uploader is over the age of majority? And just how do you plan to acquire that information? I don't see the point to this proposal and it is more or less impossible to enforce anyway. Beeblebrox (talk) 18:28, 30 May 2013 (UTC)
and they are the photo subject :) Sfan00 IMG (talk) 18:42, 30 May 2013 (UTC)
Yeah, I read that, you didn't answer my question. How would you verify either of those things? I could upload a picture of my 16 year old niece and say it was me and I am 19. How would you have the slightest idea if I were telling the truth? (answer:you wouldn't and there is nothing you can do about that so until you resolve that issue this proposal is actually not possible even if it were supported by the community) Beeblebrox (talk) 20:48, 30 May 2013 (UTC)
You seem to be saying that this proposal doesn't work because it's impossible to reliably confirm ages of uploaders,
This could be easily resolved by amending the upload terms, so that the terms you agree to when uploading include a clause like " If your image subject contains identifiable individuals not of majority age, you assert that you have an appropriate release, and are willing to provide confirmation of this via the OTRS system. Non-provision of this confirmation may result in the image being removed."Sfan00 IMG (talk) 07:40, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

Sfan, I think I can see where you are coming from. Is this policy intended to prevent the invasion of privacy of children? Martin Hogbin (talk) 18:50, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

Partly, Yes. Sfan00 IMG (talk) 18:54, 30 May 2013 (UTC)
What else then? Martin Hogbin (talk) 19:09, 30 May 2013 (UTC)
It is to ensure that there can be no objection to images of people not of majority age Sfan00 IMG (talk) 08:14, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

Can you give examples of presently-used images that would be affected by this policy, or examples of past problems with images that would have been easier to resolve if we had such an explicit policy? postdlf (talk) 19:30, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

  • oppose at least as it's currently worded. Otherwise we're deleting landscapes. I have some sympathy for the principle, but it would need to be very carefully worded if it wasn't to do more harm than good. I doubt if such a policy is even possible. It would certainly be the end for a lot of Commons content that is just basic, innocent "children of all nations".
In my proposal I stated this would only apply to new uploads (after July 1st), The issue of what to do with existing images is a related, but different discussion.
When we can still have users like Commons:user:Toilet (the name is as obvious a hint as you might get) and their ongoing uploads of random women's backsides, still unchecked only because he seems to have toned down his previous "themed" image titles, then we aren't yet at a position to start censoring all images of children, simply for being children. Andy Dingley (talk) 20:16, 30 May 2013 (UTC)
This was not about removing all images of children, It was about changing policy such that for new uploads there was a higher standard being applied. However as you are reading this thread, you will see a number of objections.Sfan00 IMG (talk) 08:14, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
I guess someone has to answer this question now that an image was added to the discussion (which I removed). At the age of, say 7, the child might be very upset that an image was used, without their, or their parents' permission on a very public site. Any parent should ask themselves, 'How would you feel if an image of your child was shown in WP without your permission?'. Martin Hogbin (talk) 21:14, 30 May 2013 (UTC)
I'm sorry my style of pointing out the absurdity of this proposal doesn't comport with your idea of how we should discuss it, but I have restored that edit. Please don't do that again. Beeblebrox (talk) 22:01, 30 May 2013 (UTC)
Can you prove that you have the permission of the parents or other appropriate adult to show that picture here? Martin Hogbin (talk) 22:36, 30 May 2013 (UTC)
Both images I have added here are hosted on Commons. anyone on earth can use them for any purpose they want. You seem to be asking me to prove they conform to this very new proposal that has basically no chance of becoming policy, which is just absurd. Beeblebrox (talk) 01:17, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
As it happens, it looks like the child in the picture is now around 23 years old and thus able to object to the use of the image themselves so this image in not one that would be affected by the proposal. Martin Hogbin (talk) 07:59, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
and what would we do here?
That's a reasonable point, That's a crowd image, and it's a location where there would not be a reasonable expectation of privacy. Sfan00 IMG (talk) 08:14, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Getting back to the point, it seems a discussion abotu image policy can and should involve concrete examples. So, look to your right. There are obviously children in this group. My understanding of this proposal would ban an image like this from being used anywhere on Wikipedia. I don't think that is a good thing and I don't think this proposal has been been thought through to examine all the potential ramifications. Also, many countries have "freedom of panorama" which means persons of any age in a public place have no expectation of privacy. Wikipedia and Commons have long held that this applies on our projects as well so long as the image was taken in a country that does provide such freedom. This proposal would, if it had any chance of being approved, be a fundamental change at the most basic level as to what we do and do not permit here. As such it needs a bit more than just a thread on this page to become policy. A formal, widely advertised RFC with actual specifics would be needed. this is basically so vague and obviously deeply flawed that I see no point in discussing until the obvious problems are rectified. Beeblebrox (talk) 22:22, 30 May 2013 (UTC)
      • Sorry for the late reply, at Commons we were only now notified about this discussion. "freedom of panorama" has absolutely nothing to do with this topic. "freedom of panorama" is an exemption from copyright for photos of still copyrighted works permanently installed in the public; terms differ from country for country; in the U.S. valid only for buildings. It has no relation at all to photos of real people. --Túrelio (talk) 16:05, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
    • Yeah, the policy proposal is meaningless (not even "flawed") without even an explanation as to why the proposer thinks it's necessary, with concrete examples as you said. This thread should be just closed rather than us wasting more time than what little the proposer spent thinking about it. postdlf (talk) 22:35, 30 May 2013 (UTC)
There is a disscussion, Rather than calling it 'meaningless' it would perhaps be more reasonable to continue to expose it's flaws in it's current wording, as you already being doing .Sfan00 IMG (talk) 08:14, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
It would indeed be helpful if the originator of this proposal would give their detailed thinking behind it. There is a point about privacy. I do not think, for example, that we should show a picture of a child against the wishes of the child or parents even in cases where we might be legally entitled to do so. Martin Hogbin (talk) 08:04, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

From reading the comments some reasonable objections have been raised.

  1. It is not currently possible to verify uploader ages - This could be solved by changing the terms agreed to when media is uploaded, I'm open to a further discussion on a 'reasonable' wording for this.
  2. There will be acceptable images (meeting other legal requirements and Wikipedia policy) taken where there is no reasonable expectation of privacy. - What constitutes 'reasonable expectation of privacy'
  3. This would cause wide-spread deletions of existing uploads - This change would only apply the higher standard (i.e age verification, release permission) to new uploads. Applying it to existing uploads would need a further community discussion, as the vast majority of existing images as has been pointed out are currently acceptable.
  4. This policy is that there should be a presumption to delete, it does not say that the deletion should be automatic, which is an important distinction.

Sfan00 IMG (talk) 08:14, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

SFan, can you explain the reasons that you wish to make this change in policy? Also, can you give some examples of wher this policy might be relevant. Martin Hogbin (talk) 09:40, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

I am going to have to second (third... fourth...) that request. The value and nature of this proposal would be easier to judge if we knew what, specifically, you are concerned about. Once we have that, we can then discuss (1) if it is desirable and if then, (2) how to mitigate unintended consequences. Resolute 13:57, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
These were some of my reasons for proposing the change :-
  • It is a generally accepted view that images of minors need careful handling, and I feel that Wikipedia should apply a higher standard than it currently does so. Wikipedia already meets minimum legal requirements, and there's no concern being raised in that respect.
  • It was felt reasonable that the privacy of individuals not of majority age (and thus not generally able to directly start due process directly) should be protected, This privacy extending to images of the individuals concerned.
    Whilst the majority of uploaders understand issues relating to privacy and child protection, it cannot be relied upon that all users would fully understand that by posting an image on Wikipedia, it could become highly visible, and open to uses towhich the subject of the image (their guardians, relatives, community etc.) may object to. A presumption to delete images without a clear release (the exceptions and objections noted) could pre-empt the sort of angry mis-informed complaints the subjects of images (their guardians &c.) might raise about media of which they are the subject, or have a close connection to. The 'release' being a confirmation that the subject of the image and the uploader understand the issues involved and accepts them.
  • Images with doubtful sourcing should be removed as it imposes an additional burden on downstream users, who have to figure out who they might need to obtain permission from.
  • Additionally I feel Wikipedia/Wikimedia (as a major content provider) should be supporting 'responsible' practice, as an example to others. In commerical use (which Wikipedia and Commons hosted media allows), responsibly run mainstream media, will not generally make use of images of minors without releases. Whilst it is understood Wikipedia (and Commons) are not (yet) legally required to obtain releases, by doing so Wikipedia and Commons will demonstrate that it's prepared to respect

examples of 'responsible practice'

However, it seems from the this thread, that there is already widespread concern about this proposal.

Sfan00 IMG (talk) 18:43, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

I think you raise an important point which should be discussed further. We should, in my opinion, apply higher standards to pictures of minors than we do to adults. I think many who have commented and even opposed it have not even understood your proposal. There is much irrelevant talk purges of current images, and legal issues for example. It is a pity that on WP it is practically impossible to discuss principles without rapid polarisation of response. WP is not the media and should apply different standards. If users do not like your specific proposals it would be more useful if they were to suggest alternative ways in which we could protect the privacy and feelings of children depicted here. Martin Hogbin (talk) 08:35, 1 June 2013 (UTC)
You seem to have accepted uncritically Sfan00's premise that there is a real need to protect the privacy and feelings of children that current policy and practices do not meet. That has not been shown in any way. It shouldn't surprise you that such a broad and restrictive proposal is being soundly rejected when no one has offered a concrete problem to justify it and a cogent explanation as to why the proposal is necessary to fix it. postdlf (talk) 16:28, 1 June 2013 (UTC)
It is a matter of generally accepted principle that children need to be protected more than adults. It is quite likely that there could be problems that we do not know about in WP today. For example, in the child article we have this picture. Let me ask you some questions. Do we have any evidence that the children and their parents gave given permission for this picture to be in WP? How would we know if they (children or parents) were actually rather upset by the picture being in WP? What would be your view if we somehow knew that the both the children and parents objected strongly to the image being in WP? What would be your view if you found that your children had been used in WP without your permission or knowledge? Martin Hogbin (talk) 12:15, 2 June 2013 (UTC)


Applying some logic to the images in that article (in it's revision as of date)
  1. Archive image from 1911 - Reasonable source (LOC) - Retainable as archive image with provable source.
  2. Identifiable group (clearly noted), but taken at an obviously public event, Own work.- Probably retainable, public event, so no reasonable expectation of privacy. Release desirable but not essential.
  3. (Map)
  4. Artwork, (Anicent) Individuals not identifiable, - Retainable, No identifiable indvidual in artwork
  5. Artwork, 15th C, Indviduals not identifable, - Retainable, No Identifiable indviduals.
  6. Photo, Flikr (No obvious indication of model release or connection to photo subjects), Potentially identifiable indviduals- Would fall within scope of proposed change as there
  7. Photo, Own work by uploader, OTRS for permission, - Would fall within scope of proposed policy change, but at lower priority, as OTRS is assumed to have contact details, so clarification on 'child privacy' etc can nominally be checked with the original photographer.Sfan00 IMG (talk) 15:18, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

The above analysis suggests that a broad presumption to delete would be overly prescriptive. However, I still think that a narrower presumption in favour of deleting new uploads containing "recent images of potentially identifiable persons not of majority age, which do not appear to have been taken in a "public venue" are not archive images of the uploader themselves, and were they not published on Wikipedia/Commons etc. the subject of the image would have a reasonable expectation of privacy. Archive images from 'reliable and reputable sources' exempted." should be considered. Sfan00 IMG (talk) 15:18, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

  • Oppose unless the Foundation says we need to. The Foundation would be the first ones aware of any legal issues with our image use, and they would tell us when there's a problem. Granted, we do need to be aware of legal photography rights in the United States and privacy issues, and that comes under the general catchall of the location of the servers. But just as we would not permit images that were taken by illegal acts (like trespassing), we'd similarly not allow images of minors that were taken illegally, whatever that means. That aspect thus gets a catchall in the general "don't upload what US law wouldn't allow", and doesn't require a new rule or a purge of images. --MASEM (t) 14:07, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Oppose We should be ready to delete problematic images, but aside from things such as the difficulty of verifying age (legally necessary for things such as pornography, but not legally necessary here), this proposal is going way too far. This proposal would result in the deletion of images such as File:Paducah Masonic Temple site.jpg, which shows a couple of girls (junior high age, if I remember rightly) who didn't consent to the photo. Nobody's going to complain, because they're in the distance, they're facing away from the camera, and they're definitely not the focus of the photo, but this proposal would likely mean the deletion of this image if it had been uploaded here after this proposal were to take effect. Nyttend (talk) 17:56, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
Some thoughts on the image you mention.
  1. Are the individuals the main or prominent focus of the image? No
  2. Are the individuals generally identifiable in the image? No
  3. Was the image taken in a 'public venue' ?Yes

So under the narrower approach suggested above this image wouldn't be affected. Sfan00 IMG (talk) 15:25, 2 June 2013 (UTC)


  • Oppose If there were a need, I would expect the Foundation legal people to be onto it. Has there been any case that has brought this up, or is it a solution in search of a problem? Peridon (talk) 18:31, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Oppose. What is comical about this proposal is that it is stumbling around groping for a policy to enforce... and such a policy exists... but it can't touch it because the discussion originated from the endless anti-Commons rants at Jimbo Wales' talk page. Therefore the proposal doesn't look there for a carefully written, if unpleasantly restrictive, policy based on ten years of people uploading everything from baby pictures to child porn while a handful of admins somehow managed to balance respect for freedom of the press and Wikimedia's core mission of education with the uncertain legal landscapes of a hundred countries. The reform the proposer might really look for - one which I might also oppose, but which would at least be a fair idea for debate - would be to say that Wikipedia should not accept uploads that are rejected on Commons under Commons:COM:PIP. Wnt (talk) 15:02, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
I am new to this subject. Could you give me some links to the discussions that you are referring to. The common link seems not to work. Martin Hogbin (talk) 17:16, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
Sorry, I thought that was the acronym - it's Commons:Commons:Photographs of identifiable people. Wnt (talk) 04:45, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
  • Oppose. I happen to be the photographer of this photo of a girl getting ready to march in a parade, but I believe that it would be exactly as legitimate to use if it came from a Flickr account. And, no, I didn't have a release from her parent or guardian and, no, I don't need one. This is a person in a public place in the U.S., and I'm perfectly entitled to take and publish the photo, and her being a minor has, as far as I know, no legal effect on that. - Jmabel | Talk 15:14, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
This has nothing to do with legality. Maybe some her want a higher standard than the legal minimum. You are perfectly entitled to take an image of an unknown girl that you own the copyright to an publish it on WP just to prove a point but what if the girl and her parents do not want the picture to be published? Do you care or is it just their hard luck? Just out of interest, did you ask anyone's permission before you took the picture. Martin Hogbin (talk) 15:46, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
Why would someone need to ask permission to photograph someone marching in a parade? Is Jmabel to shout to every parade marcher "can I take your picture? Please stop marching and sign this release!" Your position is just getting more and more ridiculous, and your concerns are purely hypothetical if not hysterical. Someone, somewhere, might be "upset" (whatever that means) that a photo of them taken in a public place has been uploaded and used in Wikipedia, apparently just for the mere fact that they are in the picture, not because of anything in particular that it depicts about them. Though neither you nor Sfan00 have actually pointed to any actual instances of this, let alone legitimate complaints that were not dealt with properly because existing policy was somehow inadequate to address it. postdlf (talk) 15:54, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
Maybe someone taking a photo of a girl in a parade might have thought it polite to ask the parents if they minded a photograph being taken and published on one of the world's most visited web sites.
I am surprised you do not know what I mean by 'upset' it is a fairly commonly used term. For a child I guess it might refer anything from mild and short-term embarrassment to significant long term distress.
Regarding actual instances where people have been offended, how would we know? I am an experienced editor of WP and I do not know how I would go about getting a picture of myself removed from WP. It would certainly be a very public discussion, which many people might not want to get involved in.
If there is any hysteria here is is from the 'opposes' who have had a knee-jerk reaction to what they see as censorship. Most of those who oppose the suggestion have not even understood what is being proposed and why. Martin Hogbin (talk) 09:23, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
At this point, perhaps we should acknowledge that there is a real distinction between law and ethics... what is legally permissible and what is ethically correct. With the obvious exception of child pornography, it is legally permissible for an editor to take a picture of a child, and publish it on Wikipedia. Once published, however, it is ethically correct for us to respect a child's privacy, and to remove that picture if either the child or his/her parents asks us to remove it (an exception to this are images of those who do not have the same expectation of privacy as the rest of us... such as child actors). The key is that the initial publication is based on law, while the removal is based on ethics. Blueboar (talk) 16:16, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
While I commend your comment, I have to add a correction to your statement "it is legally permissible for an editor to take a picture of a child". Even for images of adults, this statement is true only in the U.S., China and Slovenia. As one can read from the table on Commons:Country specific consent requirements, in most other countries, consent of the depicted is required per law for publication of an image of an identifiable living person and in several other relevant countries (Brazil, France, Germany, Japan, Spain, Switzerland) you need consent even for taking such an image. --Túrelio (talk) 16:41, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
There's also a difference between removing an image (even if legally permissible) after community or Foundation review of a specific complaint, and what would effectively be a preemptive ban on a whole category of images. postdlf (talk) 16:25, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
  • This broad proposal is not going to make it, but we should still require all uploaded sexual images used in articles to state (in the image documentation or through appended contact) that the person is age of consent for the image, to address this and similar concerns. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 16:38, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
This proposal was to do with 'child privacy' and proving images were reasonably obtained. Issues relating to explicit content are a different thread. In any case Wikipedia/Commons already has a legal obligation to remove explicit content of minors irrespective of other policy. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 22:45, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
We are not here to discuss Commons, however, what do we know of the age of the subjects. Alanscottwalker (talk) 11:25, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
  • Oppose : Moral panic generating a solution in search of a problem. Postdlf and Jmabel above explain it well. --Cyclopiatalk 16:52, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
  • Comment - While this proposal seems to be overly vague, it does reflect the growing community awareness of the issues of consent in regard to images. After years of chipping away at this and related issues on Commons, we may have reached a tipping point. We are starting to see these types of proposals popping up here, on Commons, and even on Meta (with some of the same editors who have been the most obstructive on Commons apparently wishing to be seen as supportive). Commons (and, to a lesser extent, the various language WP projects) continue to be out of step with the 2011 WMF Board resolution on images of identifiable people - if the community does not act to correct this situation, it is likely only a matter of time before the WMF does. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 19:01, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
    • I don't think anyone opposing this idea isn't saying it isn't bad, but because it is in legal territory we shouldn't react preemptively without the Foundation's acknowledgment for fear of being too protective (eg several examples presented already). Someone should (if they haven't already) ask what the Foundation's stance is on these images, and if they say there's a problem, we'll react accordingly. But no one has pointed out a legal law that says a photograph taken of a child in a public setting requires the parents' permission to publish, or anything similar, so reacting on the belief there's a problem would be potentially harmful to the project. --MASEM (t) 19:09, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
      • But no one has pointed out ... - but I had so in my comment slightly above. See the table on Commons:Country specific consent requirements. --Túrelio (talk) 20:26, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
        • THat's not a change from current practice (eg the same rules apply here as apply there). The proposal being made here would impact any photo regardless of country of origin (eg where right now all those spaces that are green, we'd have to suddenly worry about children, etc.). --MASEM (t) 20:30, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
          • Country-specific requirements are largely ignored on Commons. The number of images which violate those regulations increases daily as Flickr is duplicated on Commons with bulk uploads initiated by Commons admins. As for current practice here, I doubt that country-specific regulations are considered by editors placing an image into an article if the image is hosted by Commons, but I have no sense of whether uploaders consider that aspect of images. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 10:18, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
            • This is why there is language on Commons' disclaimers (as well as ours) that redistributors of such content are responsible for any media reuse they include to make sure that it does apply to the countries they plan to use it in. We here and at commons make as much reasonable effort to make sure that any country-restricted issues are noted (there's a template for personality rights, for example, which varies from country to country) but we'd need a dedicated legal-related team to keep every image marked perfectly as to any country image problems that might exist. Ergo why I don't believe we need to push on this aspect since, at least in the US where our content is hosted, there's no issues that I'm aware of legal restrictions of photos of children taken in public areas. --MASEM (t) 16:57, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

From the comments here, it would seem that a general presumption to delete DOES NOT have community consensus, which means that the proposal in it's current form would be unworkable. It would however be appreciated if someone could summarise what the basis of the objection is, so that when the next moral panic occurs, Wikipedians (and Commoners) have answers ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 22:45, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

  • Oppose legal issues should be left up to legal counsel from the Foundation, unless and until we receive such direct guidance, we should make editorial decisions here as though there were no legal problems with what we're doing. --Jayron32 04:52, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
Like most of the 'opposes' above you seem to have completely misunderstood the issue. It is not about legality, it is about privacy. Some people may simply not want pictures of themselves or their children to be published in WP; they may consider it an invasion of their privacy. For adults, there is a case for saying that is just too bad, you were in a public place and your photo was (in the US) legally taken and (in the US) can be legally published, however, for children the suggestion is that we take a more responsible line. This is in accordance with a Wikimedia Foundation resolution which states, 'Strengthen and enforce the current Commons guideline on photographs of identifiable people with the goal of requiring evidence of consent from the subject of media...'. Martin Hogbin (talk) 08:32, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
Some people may simply not want pictures of themselves or their children to be published in WP; they may consider it an invasion of their privacy. - These people are free to contact OTRS and we can deal on a case-by-case basis, depending on if and how much the request is reasonable. A blanket policy would do more harm than good. I totally understand it's a matter of privacy and not law; yet I feel it's a ridicolous overreaction. --Cyclopiatalk 09:25, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
As I said above, I as an experienced editor, am not sure how I would go about trying to get a photo of myself or a relative removed from WP. How do we expect others to react when they suddenly see an picture of their child in WP, witout their knowledge and permission? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Martin Hogbin (talk • contribs)
That you do not even know how to get an image removed from an article or deleted from WP or Commons rather undercuts your insistence that we must somehow do it differently, if you don't even know how we do it now or seem to think you should investigate that. You've had five days since the start of this thread to put some thought and time into figuring that out, instead of just repeating ad nauseum that we think of the children, who may be upset but not telling anyone. Time to drop the stick. postdlf (talk) 16:44, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
  • strong oppose this is just ridiculous. If photos are taken legally and can be published, then they should be allowed here. Anything inappropriate can be considered at FFD. We are trying to increase encyclopedic pictures and content, not reduce it. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 09:23, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

Discussion rather than conflict

Several editors have expressed 'Oppose' votes to this suggestion and several others have expressed general support for the idea although none, including myself, has gone so far as to give a 'Support' vote.

Is there any way that we could discuss what action could be taken to increase privacy of photographic subjects, particularly children, in accordance with the Wikimedia Foundation resolution which states, 'Strengthen and enforce the current Commons guideline on photographs of identifiable people with the goal of requiring evidence of consent from the subject of media...'?

Just to be clear:

  • This is not about censorship.
  • This is not about child porn.
  • This is not about the law.
  • No 'image purges' are proposed.
  • It is about responsible and respectful behaviour towards others and their privacy and feelings, especially children. Martin Hogbin (talk) 10:11, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
Yeah, because a lawfully taken picture appearing on an encyclopedia is so horribly violating privacy and feelings. And here is my proposal: Why not having for each picture a relative discussion page where people can write about the picture, including complaining if it is their own picture and asking editors to take it down? Oh wait, it already exists! It is called "Talk page"! What an amazing coincidence. --Cyclopiatalk 16:52, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
Yes, who cares, they are only people, we are writing an encyclopedia.
Or we could have a sensible discussion on improving our responsible use of images. Martin Hogbin (talk) 17:32, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
Yes, who cares, they are only people, we are writing an encyclopedia. - Exactly, my friend. Thanks for summing it up very well. --Cyclopiatalk 15:55, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
As soon as you start going down the road of saying "its to make us feel good", you open a door for anyone to start to complain and demand changes because they personally feel it is bad. We have policy and legal restrictions in place that prevent abuse beyond even what the law allows (BLP specifically) but there simply is nothing bad about taking pictures of children in public places where there is no expectation of privacy. Until we have a legal requirement ( a new law in the US or the Foundation's own statement) , its best to try to make law up for ourselves when it could interfere with other not-broken parts of WP. --MASEM (t) 17:35, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
Even short of being legally compelled, I'd take this a lot more seriously if we were shown that there have been a number of legitimate complaints about images of children, particularly if those complaints were not handled appropriately (or not handled at all). In other words, evidence that this is a genuine concern. We have none. postdlf (talk) 18:38, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
Time for closure? The original proposal does not have consensus Sfan00 IMG (talk) 19:19, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

I'm coming to this discussion late, but the proposal as worded would pretty much ban the usage of historical photos of children, including such notable figures as Alice Liddell. Pretty much all of the public domain photos here would be off-limits, unless the individuals themselves or their estate could be contacted to give permission (probably not feasible in the overwhlming majority of cases): commons:Category:Black_and_white_photographs_of_children.

More generally, I understand the rule's intent in protecting the privacy of children from people randomly taking snaps of them and putting them up on the internet, but such a rule would need to be carefully worded. What are the working guidelines in photojournalism or commercial stock photography? Those would be a good starting points. Iamcuriousblue (talk) 22:59, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

Not necessarily, because when the use of a person's likeness gets commercial the rules may change, particularly if the likeness is being used to sell a product. Personality rights are somewhat analogous to trademarks in that sense, just like we can upload uncopyrightable trademarked logos to Commons because they are "free" in every way that we care about, but just see how free it is if you try to sell your own product with a competing company's logo. So I don't see the relevance of commercial practices and think it would just be a distraction to delve into. postdlf (talk) 00:58, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
Curiousblue - I commented on this far above in this section - there actually is such a policy Commons:Commons:Photographs of identifiable people used at the main photo site for Wikipedia; the comic bit is that the people pushing this policy are motivated by a hatred of Commons, especially its acceptance of naked images of adults, and so they cannot make any use of it and need to start over from scratch. Wnt (talk) 15:12, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
Unsurprisingly, Commons:Commons:Photographs of identifiable people is not a policy. It is a guideline, and one that is not consistently applied. Although that guideline makes references to consent, there seems to be no willingness on Commons to actually follow the advice therein. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 15:39, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
I've seen it invoked many a time, in just the sort of discussions you find most interesting. Wnt (talk) 18:05, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

Set NOGALLERY as default to all categories

Hi! I am just wondering why shouldn't we set _NOGALLERY_ as default to all cats around the English Wikipedia, if it was possible. (Shows links to files instead of displaying it). I can't see any advantage of having the images visible in categories. Non-free images are allowed only in articles and copyleft images would be eventually moved to Commons (I may be wrong).···Vanischenu「m/Talk」 13:00, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

Given that we can have galleries of free images, and that most categories don't include images, this might be the wrong way to go about it. It is probably better to have a bot generate a list of categories that include non-free media that are not colon-linked to have those reviewed and apply NOGALLERY where appropriate (most of these will but there are maintenance categories that we make exception for admin work). --MASEM (t) 13:45, 10 June 2013 (UTC)
Yes, we can have galleries of free images, but should we? Thumbnails in Wikipedia categories serve no purpose, does they? One thing that contributes to the beauty of Wikipedia is her strictness towards copyright laws. (e.g., we don't usually link to Youtube videos, however helpful they are, because most of them are copyright infringements).···Vanischenu「m/Talk」 15:44, 10 June 2013 (UTC)
Ah yes, let's add another bother on users. Let them decode filenames and imagine what the file looks like. Perhaps we should hide the image on the filedescription and file history list as well. Just in case..... I find this totally stupendous. It's just one more step towards the 'let's abolish our fair use policy'. It's unfair on the average user, if this is what you want, come clean and simple open another RFC to stop the FU policy, don't bother us with details like these. I propose we don't abolish the images, but let's make them 10x10 pixels ! —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 17:32, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

Even better would be a technical solution that blocks image files tagged with a non-free template from displaying anywhere but main article space. To the extent that category displays of thumbnails of nonfree images is even a problem we should care about, which I don't think it is. postdlf (talk) 18:24, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

That's Template:Bug. Anomie⚔ 21:35, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

FYI, we currently have 11499 categories without __NOGALLERY__ that contain one or more files, and 4768 of those contain some file that is also in Category:All non-free media. Which means we have 6731 categories with only free files in them. Anomie⚔ 21:35, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

Do you know if that count includes files that are colon-linked (not to display) vs those that are direct linked (will display)? --MASEM (t) 21:36, 10 June 2013 (UTC)
How do you put a file into a category and have it colon-linked? Anomie⚔ 02:43, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
Ah, crap, yeah, you can't do that, as best I know. It's the nogallery tag that controls that. --MASEM (t) 02:54, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Thanks to all of you. Thanks to Anomie for the bug, the list and Special:Redirect :) So, we have a list of cats with non free thumbnails, but no bot to place 'NOGALLERY' magic word on them?···Vanischenu「m/Talk」 07:46, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

I could write such a bot easily enough, if there's a strong enough consensus that we want to blindly add NOGALLERY whenever someone randomly adds a non-free image to a category. Personally, I don't think that's such a good idea. Anomie⚔ 11:01, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

Allow modern images when possible?

I've seen people persistent that an article keep an ancient image of something up rather than a better, free image that's in color. I get that Wikipedia is pedantic when it comes to images, but why not have some sort of clause permitting replacing images? RocketLauncher2 (talk) 14:25, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

You will need to be more specific - there is no policy against replacing images as such. Where and why do you think there is a problem? AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:35, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
It depends on the subject. At least in sports, the criteria is that the first picture should reflect a person in its peak. Like, you would use a picture of a driver in his 30s or so, not the latest. --NaBUru38 (talk) 21:46, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
  • Comment: Infobox is part of lead and it summarizes the article. So its always best to include an image that summarizes the article well. For example, a beauty pageant winner of 1930s should have her photo from that era and not the latest one of 2010s with all wrinkles and grey hair. I would insist on doing this for articles where looks are vital. For a mathematician whose looks haven't been of any importance, its okay to choose any image. For BLPs, this conflict of choosing images for infobox can always be heated as newer images are always available. For example, i would like it if Dustin Hoffman's image from 70s was used while he was at peak and is quite notable for that. But same logic doesn't completely fit Meryl Streep who is still churning notable works. In short, every case is different. §§Dharmadhyaksha§§ {T/C} 06:21, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

Pendantic image rules

I think it's difficult for your average person to upload an image to Wikipedia. The Wizard is pretty much a mess and there's such a huge preference on free images that there's always requests for deletion on fair-use images. I think most of the images on articles concerning major events are there out of pure luck. Am I just wrong? RocketLauncher2 (talk) 14:33, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

The rules regarding images have to be 'pedantic' - we have to obey copyright laws. AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:37, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
This appears to be about Edward Snowden, a biography of a living person. Our rules are pretty tough for these kinds of topics. Binksternet (talk) 14:42, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
The image is widely circulated, but without clear public use or licensing documentation, I've even regularly seen media use "test footage" with watermarks for "Not for Broadcast" on things like the Stormchaser video for that tornado story. Wikipedia has to be held to a higher standard on image because our coverage is long lasting, not backed by a major business or journalistic. The last thing we need to do rush to put media photos on Wikipedia articles when the rights to the interview is well-known and currently in use. A public domain image is really what is preferred, but a NFCC rational can be provided and challenged by editors easily. Its just the nature of the system and the law. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 15:14, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
The wizard is a mess. The last time I used it it would never highlight the upload button, and I wound up clicking the option to return to the earlier version of the tool just so I could make progress. There's no doubt that the issue is complex, but that wizard seems more like a hindrance than a help.—Kww(talk) 16:21, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
Part of that is the underlying HTML5/scripting limitations (the upload button thing, I found, you have to tab off the last required text field, at which point it will highlight assuming all other required elements are filled in, this because the script cannot detect the text field change until focus moves). It is, unfortunately, better than just dropping the user off at Special:Upload. --MASEM (t) 16:34, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
I've often wondered why we don't just import the Commons Wizard to Wikipedia. It works very well, and I can't figure out why we don't use it here. --Jayron32 02:17, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
As far as I've been able to figure out, the Commons wizard would require a massive amount of rewriting if we wanted to expand it to cater for all the non-free image options and FUR stuff, and last time I looked I could find no useful documentation on how to do that. If anybody wants to dig into it and see what can be done with it, that would be great, but I predict it would be a major task. I'm also not quite sure some of the fundamental design choices are really suitable for us here. For instance, the fact that you technically do the upload first and only then get asked about the source and licensing issues might be rather counterproductive in an environment where one of the main tasks of the upload system is to tell prospective uploaders "sorry, but what you want to do just won't work; please don't upload this file". Fut.Perf. ☼ 00:33, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

Wikipedia:File names no longer marked as a guideline

Wikipedia:File names (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) has been edited so that it is no longer marked as a guideline. It was previously marked as a guideline. This is an automated notice of the change (more information). -- VeblenBot (talk) 02:00, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

Note: I reverted the test edit that overwrote the page, so this automated notice is ignorable. –Quiddity (talk) 04:12, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

WP:IAR and WP:COMMON

Current wording at WP:IAR?#Use common sense currently has an addendum sentence, "Why isn't "use common sense" an official policy? It doesn't need to be; as a fundamental principle, it is above any policy." (Original emphasis from page, not mine). Other than the obvious misuse of bolding, my problem is that common sense is no where listed as a fundamental principle, and in actuality the only thing above policy is consensus, principles really don't exist other than the fact that there is a bunch of pages that try to SUMMARIZE what our "principles" are as in what is common across all policies, guidelines, current way of doing things, and consensus agreements. I haven't seen "common sense" in the essay entitled WP:5P or User:Jimbo Wales/Statement of principles, and it is not listed among the pages in WP:Principles.Camelbinky (talk) 23:41, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

Is someone suggesting that editors should not use common sense? Per WP:BURO, we do not have to worry unduly about Wikipedia's written constitution, and whether all possibilities are covered by the rules. BTW, the quoted text is at WP:What "Ignore all rules" means#Use common sense. Johnuniq (talk) 00:04, 8 June 2013 (UTC)
Well... whether there is actual common sense that is common to all people is debatable. My problem is semantics, the sentence states something that does not exist. Common sense is not a principle, it does not trump policy; no principle trumps policy or consensus, whatever that word means in Wikipedia-speak. And of course the bolding is obnoxious. I just think it is superfluous and was probably added by someone with an axe to grind and prove something about common sense versus those that believe in "no common sense". It's a left over of instruction creep and should be removed.Camelbinky (talk) 00:13, 8 June 2013 (UTC)
You linked the policy WP:IAR but you are apparently referring to the essay WP:IAR?#Use common sense. See Wikipedia:Wikipedia essays. This page is not intended to discuss essays. PrimeHunter (talk) 00:09, 8 June 2013 (UTC)
If you hope to turn an essay into a policy, then this is a fine place to talk about it. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:27, 9 June 2013 (UTC)
In my opinion what Johnuniq is attempting to do by allowing that sentence to remain is to make it policy even though it is a sentence in a policy. There is no consensus or source for the sentence to say that common sense is a principle and above policy. It is not.Camelbinky (talk) 00:57, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
WP:IAR? is not a policy, so a sentence in WP:IAR? is not a sentence in a policy. The whole page is an essay. As the box at the top of the page says, "Essays are not Wikipedia policies or guidelines." PrimeHunter (talk) 01:37, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
Not a policy, but it is a pillar. Chris857 (talk) 01:46, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
He was talking about WP:IAR?, which is an essay, not WP:IAR, which is a policy and a pillar. WP:IAR? is an essay about WP:IAR. There has been confusion on this distinction from the beginning in this thread. postdlf (talk) 02:13, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
My point is that it is a sentence in an essay that purports to state a fact to its own question (improperly asked and bolded in the first place, which gives it even added weight to being factual). This "fact" states unequivocally that this sentence is above policy and is a principle. In fact it is not a principle nor enshrined as anything above policy. Yes, it is an essay, but it is not worded as an essay opinion, it is worded as factual statement regarding principle and policy !rules that supposedly bolster the opinions of that essay. It is dangerous in that you are bolstering opinion for something that is not factual. Even essays have to be responsible and bolster their opinions with sourced material if it is claiming something as fact and not opinion, which in this case the sentence in question is purported to be fact, not essay opinion as johnuniq claims.Camelbinky (talk) 02:53, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

Here's what that section says, for those who haven't read it:

Wikipedia has many rules. Instead of following every rule, it is acceptable to use common sense as you go about editing. Being too wrapped up in rules can cause loss of perspective, so there are times when it is better to ignore a rule. Even if a contribution "violates" the precise wording of a rule, it might still be a good contribution. Similarly, just because something is not forbidden in a written document, or is even explicitly permitted, doesn't mean it's a good idea in the given situation. Our goal is to improve Wikipedia so that it better informs readers. Being able to articulate "common sense" reasons why a change helps the encyclopedia is good, and editors should not ignore those reasons because they don't include a bunch of policy shortcuts. The principle of the rules—to make Wikipedia and its sister projects thrive—is more important than the letter. Editors must use their best judgment.

This seems to me to be pretty much a fundamental principle. You can't have a wiki that anyone can edit, and you can't have a formal policy whose second sentence says, "There is no need to read any policy or guideline pages to start editing", if you aren't assuming that people will act in good faith and with basic good sense.

What does WP:Ignore all rules mean? IAR doesn't mean "feel free to vandalize all you want, because WP:VANDAL is just a rule and you can ignore it". It does mean "don't get hung up on who types the most shortcuts" and "do what improves the article, after considering all the facts and circumstances, even if that's not exactly what the average article would need".

Wikipedia has a British constitution system. It does not have a statutory code. We have certain WP:Principles, and the expectation that users will use common sense is one of them. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:37, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

Short of grounds for deleting an essay, the way to deal with an essay you disagree with is to write your own essay. Or you can be bold and edit it yourself, discuss it with its original contributor(s), etc., etc... I'm not sure a VPP discussion is appropriate for this kind of disagreement. postdlf (talk) 16:51, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

User:WhatamIdoing I think you have mistaken what I am talking about, I never mentioned that section nor know exactly where in relation on the page WP:IAR? it is to the sentence I am talking about. Let me, again, state the specific sentence with its original bolding format (which is ALSO what I am complaining about)-
Why isn't "use common sense" an official policy? It doesn't need to be; as a fundamental principle, it is above any policy
This entire rhetorical question and answer format is not up to what I am use to, even in an essay. The bolding is ridiculous. The answer to that question is absolutely false. Common sense is not above policy. Common sense is not a principle on ANY page, anywhere. Maybe if I bold things then it becomes fact.Camelbinky (talk) 19:31, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
It's the paragraph immediately before the one you're complaining about, and it explains what is meant by "use common sense" and the relationship that this has to IAR, or, as it's more commonly stated, the importance of following the spirit rather than the letter.
Our principles are not limited to the ones that happen to be written on specific pages that are marked as "Wikipedia principles". WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:09, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
I suggest you continue to discuss your issues with that essay at Wikipedia talk:What "Ignore all rules" means, and then anyone watching this thread who is also interested in what this essay says can also jump in over there. postdlf (talk) 19:37, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
I did and no one other than Johnuniq responded, and claimed it IS a core principle. It is not listed on WP:Principle, it is not in the wp:5P and not mentioned by Jimbo in his statement of principles. It is an outright lie to offer "authoritative" backing to an essay. It is ridiculous to allow an important essay about a policy be worded 1) in a way which looks retarded and 2) is an outright lie. Before you know it people will start claiming common sense is principle. Common sense is NOT A PILLAR IN THE 5P!!!.Camelbinky (talk) 22:31, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
I suggest you continue to discuss your issues with what Johnuniq has said at Wikipedia talk:What "Ignore all rules" means, and then anyone watching this thread who is also interested in what Johnuniq has said can also jump in over there. postdlf (talk) 00:00, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
Who cares what's written on a page called "Wikipedia:Principle"? Are we not alowed to have any principles except the ones listed on a particular page? If we leave out something like "In principle, we oppose the French spy agency from forcing admins to delete pages", does that mean that this is no longer part of our principles?
As I said above, this is a British constitution system. We have certain ideas of what's okay and what's not, and we articulate them in different ways and on different types of pages as the need arises. The fact that something hasn't been written down in a particular way doesn't mean that we don't support it. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:09, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

WP:IAR is a joke. All anyone ever does is yell at you about the rules. No help, no suggestions, no civility. Just you are outta line mister. Blah blah blah.. rules rules rules. Wikipedia should remove it and replace it with WP:ABSOLUTE BUREAUCRACY... Jason A. Jensen of USA (talk) 01:16, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

This is one of multiple post of this nature from you I have seen today - You seem to be having a bit of a meltdown - have you considered a Wikibreak?Moxy (talk) 01:57, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
Yup. Instead of attacking the argument or idea. Go after the person. In this case.. his mental health. Jason A. Jensen of USA (talk) 02:01, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
You seem to be having a problem - venting on numerous pages trying to invoke an argument is not how we solve problems here. Again perhaps best you take a break and evaluate your situation and how you can go about fixing it.Moxy (talk) 02:09, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
By then my page will have been deleted. yeah you solve problems by eliminating diversity. Jason A. Jensen of USA (talk) 02:17, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
The problem with randomly ranting is we have no clue what your primary concern is or problems you have encounter. All we know is your clearly upset - about what is anyone's guess at this point. Moxy (talk) 02:58, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
I am not upset. Really. Entertained a bit. Really confused. Maybe frustrated as hell with the editor which I'd like to call betamax but were still using it. Mostly worried. How is wikipedia going to work in the long run if it says edit me, you click the button, and it smacks you or shoots water at you. How can you even claim you could EVER even understand the word consensus? This is the tighted niche group since the manhattan project. You're like the copy with a comment box that has 1x1inch squares to write in and if you violate a 2 mm padding the form is invalid. Its like a game of operation but at taser voltages. So ignore all the rules but don't. And what a rule. No talking about other people's actions. Well congratulations Mr. 65000 edits. Jason A. Jensen of USA (talk) 03:26, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
Deletion is not permanent. If something gets deleted in error, then it can be undeleted. Even if it stays deleted, it's not the end of the world. If it seems like the end of the world, then you may want to find a less stressful hobby. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:09, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
It won't be for an accident. It will be for the reason that NO CRITICISM is allowed here at WikiWorld. Jason A. Jensen of USA (talk) 15:04, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

RfC: WP:AURDNAME as a guideline

I would like to invite the editors here to comment on a proposal to promote WP:AURDNAME (Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Australian roads) to guideline status. Please visit the WP:AURDNAME talkpage and discuss.

-- Nbound (talk) 12:00, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

how long should i wait for a response

Hi, how long should i wait for a response about
Transepidermal Water Loss
from
User_talk:XLinkBot / User_talk:Beetstra
regarding
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/78.147.7.215
It's been nine days so far.78.149.7.35 (talk) 10:19, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
There are literally hundreds of people who add dubious external links to Wikipedia every day, and it is not possible to discuss every case in detail. Please put a new message at WP:ELN with a link to the article, and the proposed addition, and invite comments. Edit this section to see the wikitext required:
Article Transepidermal water loss and diff showing link to www.tewl.wikia.com.
It is most unlikely that links to a wikia.com wiki would be considered desirable. Johnuniq (talk) 10:53, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
It fails WP:RS and shouldnt be linked to. Werieth (talk) 17:50, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
Not all external links need to be relibale sources; indeed, most of them won't be. Nevertheless, an external link to Wikia will almost never be acceptable, unless the article's subject is a Wikia site itself (such as Memory Alpha, for example). Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 17:55, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
Sorry got my links mixed up, its WP:ELNO#12 not RS. Werieth (talk) 17:58, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Left-Wing's Stranglehold on Wikipedia Apparent in National Organization for Marriage Article: Biased Language

NO THANKS
Content dispute, not a policy proposal or policy related discussion. Beeblebrox (talk) 05:24, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Recently, in the National Organization for Marriage article, I changed language including the phrase "same-sex marriage", etc., to more neutral language, and, as expected, it was quickly reverted.

Using the phrase "same-sex marriage" supports the homosexual agenda and promotes the homosexual ideology because it requires the word "marriage" to assume the meaning, "union of two people", instead of its usual definition "union of man and woman". Of course, changing the word's meaning in this manner is central to this debate. Until the debate has been conclusively settled and the word "marriage" means "union of two people" as the standard use, it should not be used as such in Wikipedia articles, or any other article claiming to be professional or objective.

It would be more neutral to say they are "opposed to redefining marriage", because that is precisely what they are opposing, instead of the phrase "opposed to same-sex marriage", which is biased as I've just shown. However, I expect the article to remain biased in favor of the homosexual agenda because Wikipedia is controlled by left-wing editors, who will simply say "the media uses the term, therefore we should, too" as an excuse. Please note (in response to this objection) that the mainstream media can hardly be held as a standard of professionalism, given their goals are to sell publications and advertising, and to create controversy (in order to further sales); it is also well-known that those working in this field are often themselves biased -- thus, it is not a good argument to suppose that a professional encyclopedia ought to use their language.

It is a shame that Wikipedia cannot be neutral or professional as it advertises to be. I would like to be proven wrong, though.

-- Newagelink (talk) 17:18, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
The media uses the term, therefore we should, too. That is how Wikipedia works. If you don't like it, you don't have to read it... AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:31, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
The article's talk page would be the right place to discuss this, not here. Regardless, the statement that we need to ignore all sources and drop everything to use the terminology you personally prefer because you prefer it is not going to fly, no matter where it's expressed. This is a function of using the most reliable sources that we have, rather than personal preferences, to build an encyclopedia. It is not a function of bias, though you're of course welcome to believe whatever you want to believe in that regard: such is the invariable human custom. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 17:38, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
There definition of marriage is wider than just the modern Judeo-Christian version. (including such practices as polygamy, polyandry, and same sex marriage, in both historical and modern societies). Not using the term "marriage", which is also used in the vast majority of reliable sources could be construed as POV pushing -- Nbound (talk) 22:39, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
Encyclopedia of Religious Controversies in the United States, page 449: "A number of national groups, including the National Organization for Marriage and the Family Research Council, have been outspoken and politically active in their opposition to same-sex marriage."
This is a respected encyclopedia source, using neutral language to describe NOM. This wording is also used by same-sex marriage opponents such as the Southern Baptist Council who wrote a paper about in June 2003: "On Same-Sex Marriage" (same source.)
My take on the phrase "opposed to redefining marriage" is that it is politically charged, and in many cases false. NOM says they are against redefining marriage but in fact they have introduced legislation which would define marriage to be between a man and a woman, in jurisdictions where no such definition was ever on the books. In those cases, marriage would be effectively redefined. Binksternet (talk) 23:17, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
Not pushing the American far right's POV (by redefining language to fit their agenda) is not the same as pushing the opposite POV. This is not Conservapedia. (I say "far right" because even the more mainstream right at least say "gay marriage"). "Marriage" has been used to refer not only to Christian matrimony but similar social constructs. Ian.thomson (talk) 23:36, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
Clearly, this calls for a pointless and drawn-out RfC. be sure to use the phrase "homosexual agenda" when drafting it. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 23:39, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
The phrase "opposed to redefining marriage" is ambiguous and U.S.-centric, as the legal definition of marriage already includes same-sex couples in quite a few countries (and a dozen or so U.S. states, for that matter). In those places, individuals opposed to same-sex marriage would be correctly described as "in favor of redefining marriage", or perhaps "in favor of re-redefining marriage".
The use of your preferred phrase would also display a regrettable historical blindness, as this is not the first time that the legal definition of marriage has changed—even (and especially) within the United States. Until a Supreme Court ruling in 1967, sixteen U.S. states still barred marriage between couples of different races (well, between 'whites' and others). Alabama kept the anti-miscegenation clause in their state constitution until 2000, perhaps hoping a more God-fearing Supreme Court might eventually reverse Loving v. Virginia. Are those "opposed to redefining marriage" in favor of restoring the 1966 definition?
The phrase "same-sex marriage" avoids these problematic ambiguities, and should therefore be preferred. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 00:36, 19 June 2013 (UTC)
Even those who oppose same-sex marriage use the phrase "same-sex marriage". This is a non-argument. The phrase is common, neutral, and decades-old. —Designate (talk) 01:15, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

What's Left-Wing about using the most commonly used language to describe a debate? (Unless calling something Left-Wing proves that it's wrong.) HiLo48 (talk) 01:28, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Block and ANI process is completely subjective

"REVERSE 1984"
It's impossible to discuss a bias if the persons who claim to be victimized by it will not indicate what the bias is and why it is directed at them. Beeblebrox (talk) 18:29, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Recently there was a Hastey block from me out of an accident. And now, I'm starting to see admins are becoming more bias. So we need to find a way where bias isn't an option when it comes to blocks.

I propose a formal warning system along ANI. Before taking someone to ANI, there would be a warning given by an admin. Depending on the level of said warning, and the number of times ignored, they should can be sent to ANI.

These warnings may be saved through a log. But can be retracted if its just a mistake. Thisll make blocks not so fast and make unblocks much more easier if it was done injustly.Lucia Black (talk) 23:12, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

Being an admin is alot of responsibility, it should be treated as such. This process should be done for the sake of users. It wont waste time. Its practically an ANI but instead of request block or ban request, it would be a warning. What warning would be more effective? One done by the accuser or by an imparcial admin?Lucia Black (talk) 23:24, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

  • Comment There is already a warning system in place though (WP:WARNINGS) for multiple things. Admin cant block you without looking through your history first and if you have done anything that would be worthy of a block recently. Seeing anyone can give warnings I usually give up to the final warning before raising the issue up at WP:ANI. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 23:52, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

Yes but this will eliminate blocking someone for a minor event because history showed something different. Example: an editor cant be blocked for 1 edit war if the history is based on personal attacks. That editor would have to be blocked because of that.Lucia Black (talk) 00:14, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

A note about warnings and blocks; I have been editing Wikipedia for seven and a half years and have never been blocked. (This is not hard to do; just follow the rules and put the integrity of the encyclopedia above your personal interests.) Should I receive a warning from an admin or from any user who isn't an obvious vandal/troll, I will immediately stop what I am doing -- even if I think I am right -- and discuss it. I do not think that it is too much to ask to be given a fair warning and a chance to voluntarily stop the behavior before being blocked. --Guy Macon (talk) 03:48, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

If you haven't been blocked in that amount of time, then you have been extremely lucky or you edit in only non contreversial areas. Which is in itself not a bad thing and not intended as an insult so please don't take it that way. But some topics are naturally more prone to drama like fighting Vandals, CCI, working at ANI, working on topics like religion, the balkans, etc. Its less about the editor and more about the situation the editor is in. Also, if you only do 5 or 10 edits a day then you can go a long time without attracting any attention. If you do hundreds a day though its much more likely to attract attention and the sheer volume is going to make errors and draw more attention. So just being a good editor doesn't keep people from getting blocked. There are a lot of trigger happy admins out there who will block first and ask questions later. You have just been lucky enough not to run into one. Kumioko (talk) 18:48, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
Guy Macon seems to have hit the nail on the head rather well. ·addshore· talk to me! 15:07, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
Warnings or other notifications are almost always given before a block, but sometimes, for example when a user makes legal threats or extreme cases of outing, we block right away and discuss it afterward. The complaint that "admins are becoming more bias" needs supporting evidence. (in addition to not really being proper English to begin with) Are we to take this to mean that you believe all admins are biased? Who are we all biased against? What evidence supports that claim? Beeblebrox (talk) 18:22, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
LOL. Therein lies the rub. Any links to "evidence" of "bias" will be considered a "perceived flaw" and then will be deleted for violating policy. Amazing how you can, so easily, control the debate here on WikiWorld.. Jason A. Jensen of USA (talk) 18:27, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
Uh, what? Pages whose only purpose is to defame another user or be permanent records of supposed wrongdoings are often deleted per WP:POLEMIC but diffs showing this alleged bias against an as-yet-unamed party or parties should be easily attainable if this supposed bias is as obvious as is implied above. Beeblebrox (talk) 18:36, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
Nope.. linking to diffs does not circumvent the policy as you claim. As it would still be linking to "perceived flaws". Jason A. Jensen of USA (talk) 18:41, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
Well, that's complete nonsense, but could we at least get some kind of hint as to what this bias is and who it is directed against? Hard to discuss an issue when all the details are missing. Beeblebrox (talk) 18:43, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
I am not sure how that is to be accomplished as your request violates policy. It does so as soon as you reference an editor and then complain. Obviously admins ARE biased as they are people and people have an inherent dependency flaw of their own interpretations and perceptions. So maybe you should document how admins are NOT biased and the reverse case is against policy. Jason A. Jensen of USA (talk) 18:47, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
Clearly, moral relativism is not reserved to poststructuralists. I would submit, though, Jensen, that any admin would see this as a terrible BLP violation, and your edits on Wikipedia:Ignore all rules as edit warring. For example. Drmies (talk) 19:01, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
You link to a diff page that is blocked. :) Plus now you violate policy yourself by posting links to what you percieve is my flaw. Not that I care - I invite debate. But you obviously didn't read the rest or see the irony of your claimed 3RR violation on WP:IAR. Which I have to say is pretty humorous from my point of view. Jason A. Jensen of USA (talk) 19:29, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
Eh, I didn't say "breaking 3R"--I said edit warring. It's not the same. The diff isn't blocked, it's hidden from view; after I linked it and mulled it over, I decided that all that stuff in the history, an atrocious series of edits no doubt sparked by some post on some website, should go. As an admin, I have to make those decisions. "Bias" is the wrong word to use: another admin may differ as to whether it should be hidden. Someone might even think they ought to be oversighted, so that even admins can't see it. That's not "bias"--it's judgment. Do you think I hid that edit from oversight because I'm a man? Or because I went to Alabama? Or because I drive a Camry? Or because I love dogs more than cats? Or because I'm middle-class? Or because I have a beautiful set of legs? "Bias"--pfff. Drmies (talk) 19:33, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
Now you further break policy by referring to my mistake of the rules. Again, not that I care. I did what I did as those people had no intent of discussing the change, but only to enforce the status quo and then to quickly move on. Also against policy. I think you blocked the diff out of overzealous need to dominate. A common attribute to power. And a bias. Jason A. Jensen of USA (talk) 19:40, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
Have to admit, you blocking the content moot the link and your point. Jason A. Jensen of USA (talk) 19:45, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
No, not my point. As you should know, since some of those now invisible edits are yours. You may not know this, but not all admins are alike. If I revdelete something out of policy, it will be undone. I referred to your misreading of what I said, not some "mistake of the rules" (your grammar is difficult)--pointing out that you misquoted me, is that an abuse of power as well? Good thing you're not in school, if you aren't. With those edits in that doctor's article, you simply don't have a clue what you're talking about. Drmies (talk) 23:23, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
  • By the way I've taken the liberty of informing the admin whose supposedly mistaken block is the apparent basis for this complaint. Beeblebrox (talk) 18:37, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
    I wonder also about the three separate admins who declined three separate unblock requests. Or the fourth editor who did leave a warning shortly before they were blocked. This thread screams "everyone is biased except me". Resolute 19:00, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
Well, I am willing to admit I am very much biased. But I am no admin. In fact, if anything, I am an outcast. Jason A. Jensen of USA (talk) 19:07, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
You're lucky you didn't get blocked earlier for BLP violations and edit warring. You're no martyr, you're not even a victim. Drmies (talk) 19:22, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
You're entitled to your opinion just not expressed as fact. If you pursue your search you will see that I didn't make those comments but rather I tried to edit them into compliance, very much within policy. Jason A. Jensen of USA (talk) 19:29, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
You keep going on about policy. Could you provide a link to whatever policy it is you believe supports your position, or is that something else that you imagine to be against the rules? Beeblebrox (talk) 22:03, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

When should Foreign character warning boxes be used?

Copied from Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)/Archive 102, where it was asked by 115.67.34.95 but remained unanswered. I'd like to see a reply on this. Perhaps this is a better venue to ask? Question follows. --Paul_012 (talk) 19:03, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

What is the proper use of {{Special characters}} and its derivatives, i.e. the templates in Category:Foreign character warning boxes? It seems reasonable that they shouldn't be included in articles where the foreign script in question appears only once in the first sentence, and they would be useful for articles discussing the language or its literature. But what about articles which mention several (read: less than a dozen) foreign names, but where the display of those names aren't essential to the understanding of the article itself (since the names are also represented in Latin script)? Their appearance is consistently aesthetically unappealing, whether placed below infoboxes or next to lead images. And there are even editors who apparently think that these boxes serve to list all the scripts which appear in an article. I know there are readers whose operating systems don't come pre-installed with non-Latin text support, but are these templates really still necessary? The context in which these foreign scripts appear should usually be enough for the reader to understand what they're supposed to show, whether or not it renders correctly. --115.67.34.95 (talk) 05:36, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

I think we should consider getting rid of them altogether. It's not 2005 anymore, and the number of readers without Unicode support are dwindling. As long as foreign-language text is clearly labeled, readers can always use Google to figure out why the language isn't showing up (surely no one thinks there's a language composed of identical empty boxes). It's not like the template is useful; it just tells the readers "You might have a technical issue!" and forces them to turn to Google to solve it anyway, so what value does it add? We should make every attempt to make the page render on as many browsers as possible, but there's no reason to deface the article with a warning message just to give hypothetical technical support for an uncommon problem. —Designate (talk) 06:19, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
The numbers of readers without Unicode support may be dwindling, but the number without a complete set of Unicode glyphs is still quite high. Just checking a fully-updated copy of Windows Vista with List of Unicode characters, I note that half the "Cyrillic supplement" characters are missing, as are a third of the "Arabic supplement" characters, the entire N'Ko, Samaritan, and Mandaic scripts, all of "Arabic Extended-A", 15% of the Devanagari glyphs, two glyphs from Gurmukhi, one from Gujarati, about 10% of Oriya, a Tamil glyph, 10% of Telugu, four glyphs from Kannada, 20% of Malayalam, 18 Tibetan glyphs, the entire Burmese script, one of the three variants of the Georgian alphabet, six Hangul glyphs and the entire Hangul Extended-A and Extended-B sections, Ethiopic Extended-A, the Ogham and Runic glyphs, the Tagalog, Hanunoo, Buhid, and Tagbanwa glyphs, possibly a glyph from Mongolian, the Limbu, Tai Le, Buginese, Tai Tham, Balinese, Sudanese, Batak, Lepcha, Ol Chiki, and Vedic Extensions glyphs, two-thirds of the "combining diacritical marks supplement", ten glyphs from Latin Extended Additional, the entire Braille block, the Coptic alphabet, about 50% of the CGK radicals supplement, four of the CJK tone marks, 17 of the basic unified CJK glyphs, almost all of Latin Extended-D, and all non-CJK glyphs outside the basic multilingual plane.
The big problem isn't the alphabets that are entirely missing -- most people will correctly deduce that their computer doesn't support it. The big problem is when only a few glyphs are missing, especially for something like Hangul or CGK that actually has a box as part of the writing system. --Carnildo (talk) 23:08, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
Surely such usage as in the given link is inappropriate, though? I think there should be some guidelines on there use preventing this. --Paul_012 (talk) 22:00, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Conflict between COI guideline and Jimbo's "bright line" essay

In early 2012, Wikipedia had one of its every-once-in-awhile public debates about paid editing (or paid advocacy, if you prefer). I was a participant at the time—I myself represent clients on Wikipedia, though unlike many (most?) who do this, I care very much about always staying on the right side of policies and guidelines. A few things came out of this discussion, including the creation of two new WikiProjects: WikiProject Cooperation, focused on providing an outlet for company reps and PR managers to ask for assistance, and WikiProject Integrity, focused on policing paid editing activity. (These days, both are semi-active at best.) Of greater impact, however, was User:Jimbo Wales' most detailed statement on his view of "paid advocacy". In May of that year, he created a subpage in his userspace—User:Jimbo_Wales/Paid_Advocacy_FAQ—to express his views on the subject. His position, which is often referred to as the "bright line" or "Jimbo's bright line", is as follows:

I am opposed to allowing paid advocates to edit in article space at all, but am extremely supportive of them being given other helpful paths to assist us in our efforts to be comprehensive, accurate and authoritative.
This is a very simple rule that constitutes best practice: do not edit Wikipedia articles directly if you are a paid advocate. Instead, contribute proposed edits to the talk page, and escalate to appropriate venues on Wikipedia if you are having trouble getting people's attention.

Myself, I once edited client pages as a last resort—first I would seek consensus, prefer that others make changes, but if no one was interested and it seemed uncontroversial, I would make the change. Technically, this is what the Conflict of interest guideline says:

Do not edit Wikipedia to promote your own interests, or those of other individuals or of organizations, including employers. Do not write about these things unless you are certain that a neutral editor would agree that your edits improve Wikipedia.

Since Jimbo's pronouncement, I have avoided mainspace edits from this account entirely. However, this does not work as well as Jimbo had imagined. It conflicts with the existing guideline, so it does not have the widespread recognition it maybe should, and it places the burden of action on volunteer editors, while inhibiting small useful contributions from those with a financial COI. Late last year, an effort was made to answer this dilemma with a proposal called "COI+", which would have set a timeline for paid advocates to eventually make a change if there was no answer, but it failed to gain consensus. Company reps editing pages is a non-starter for many (and as one myself, I completely understand why).

Yet the problem remains, in part because there is no formal recognition of Jimbo's advice. This week I asked an editor to review a few suggestions for the article Winton Capital Management which essentially amount to copy-edits, though I've been waiting since May 24 for a reply. This editor found them uncontroversial, and said I should edit myself, and when I explained Jimbo's view, the editor argued to me that the guideline supersedes Jimbo's essay, which is in fact marked as unfinished. It's a classic catch-22. Perhaps the best thing to do is raise this question back at Jimbo's Talk page. And rather than letting paid advocates edit articles, perhaps the best thing is for Jimbo's view to become an official part of the COI guideline. I'm curious if anyone has thoughts on this here. Cheers, WWB Too (Talk · COI) 14:17, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Its a damned if you do, damned if you don't issue. I much rather see a paid editing tag of some sort in a editors username and a disclosure and center for such activity, but many are directly opposed to this because paid editing often means promotion and removing negative material. This has occurred hundreds of times with government, commercial and industrial interests doing this. Few volunteers want to sift through trivial correction or even deal with someone else's proposed changes; meaning long waits, low visibility and the conflicted issue for even the most benign editors; paid or unpaid, who simply have a COI. The Wikipedia community is undecided and like governments; reverts to avoiding the issue to prevent establishing even tacit acceptance or outright restriction; this does need to be addressed; but with the current state of the issues and the blow up about Gibraltar it would only be another turn of the wheel. Jimbo has been overruled before; but the spirit of the argument is the important thing; for this case a copyedit like that is probably okay because no rational person would object to cleaning up bad prose. Despite our history at WP:LAME, most people don't worry over trivial matters like this. Still... I hope others can explain the issue and where paid editing stands better than I. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 15:53, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
Look at the reality here... We can make all the "rules" we want on this... we can even create a firm WP:NOPAIDEDITING policy to forbid the practice, but as long as a paid editor follows our other policies and guidelines, there is little chance of detecting violators or enforcing the rule... There is simply no way to stop paid editors from editing. It's one of the down sides to "anyone can edit". Blueboar (talk) 16:48, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
@ ChrisGualtieri—there's a lot I agree with in your comment, though it sounds like you wouldn't support what I'm asking, i.e. seeking to have Jimbo's "bright line" incorporated into WP:COI. I suggest it because the other way has already failed, and I could live with either scenario; it's the uncertainty now that I'd like to resolve. @ Blueboar—you're completely right that creating a policy doesn't mean it will be followed by the unscrupulous or uninitiated, although clarity would be preferable if it can be achieved. If there was such a rule, at least then I could point to it when asking if volunteer editors can review my suggestions. WWB Too (Talk · COI) 17:04, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
What good would that do? They'd say, "Why are you expecting me to deal with that? I'm a WP:VOLUNTEER and busy with stuff that interests me. Getting your stuff reviewed is someone else's problem." This would just turn into one more backlog that people would complain about. WhatamIdoing (talk) 11:22, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Informal request for comment at WP:COIN

I'm hoping that some of the fine folks here can participate in the discussion at Wikipedia:Conflict_of_interest/Noticeboard#Fairleigh_Dickinson_University before it gets automatically archived later today. In particular one editor (not me) has called for administrator intervention. --Nstrauss (talk) 17:46, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Rampant arrogance in articles about mathematics

Not an issue for Village pump (policy). Referred elsewhere
 – content dispute

I was reading the page Limit when I was struck by a preposterous claim. "In formulas, limit is usually abbreviated as lim as in lim(an) = a". It sounds like lim is an abbreviation of limit when it in fact is a abbreviation of limes. You could believe that this case was an exception but after reading several other articles such as Natural logarithm (with ln = logaritmus naturalis), logarithm (with log = logaritmus), Sine (with sin = sinus) there seems to be a policy of denying history here. Why is this and why can't we stick to the truth here? ---Immunmotbluescreen (talk) 19:11, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

I don't see what you are saying. Maybe you can propose what you infer is the correct way? Jason A. Jensen of USA (talk) 19:16, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
While agreeing that it is a content issue, not a policy issue, so ought to be discussed at the locations suggested by Beeblebrox, OP has a point. I read sine and notice that the term "sine" is used eleven times in the main text before "sin" is used, and then it is just used, no indication that sin is the same thing referred to as "sine" the first eleven times. Thereafter, both terms are used. If there is rhyme or reason to the choice it isn't obvious. A reader unfamiliar with the term 9which, of course, is the intended audience should be forgiven for not being sure whether the terms are identical or not. Why is one term used some times, and the other some other times. "Sine" is used more often when it is standalone, and sin more often when followed by an argument, but that isn't universal. the reader should not have to do forensic analysis to figure it out, especially, if OP is correct that sin is not an abbreviation fo sine but something else. Surely the etymology of terms is a basic part of the encyclopedia, so we ought to do it, and do it right.--SPhilbrick(Talk) 20:49, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
Posted in Project mathematics as suggested. Project Mathematics--Immunmotbluescreen (talk) 12:29, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
@SPhilbrick: etymology is a basic part of a dictionary, not an encyclopedia. Our articles are about concepts, not usually about words. But the etymology may often be relevant to the history of a concept, and mentioned there. —David Eppstein (talk) 22:21, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

Review of Commons' Scope is now OPEN

I am pleased to announce the launch of a comprehensive review of our existing policy & guidelines on Commons:Project scope, and Commons:Photographs of identifiable people. This is an important review and will cover a number of contentious issues that have recently been extensively discussed both on and off Wiki. As background, you might like to look at these recent English Wikipedia Signpost articles:

Please visit the main review page to take part. --MichaelMaggs (talk) 22:29, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Huh, I was expecting it to be another week before mine got published. I was going to do a bit of a rewrite. Oh well, publication, yay! -mattbuck (Talk) 22:45, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
Make sure to mention that this has nothing to do with those discussions on Jimbo's page about Commons being broken. Because those had no effect at all. The nice people on Commons will be only too happy to listen to your ideas and respond politely, without calling you names or accusing you of being some kind of prude because you think Commons should not be hosting naked pictures of people without their explicit consent. Be sure to see the Request for Comment started in March about some of these same topics. (Rd232, the Commons admin who started that RfC, retired soon after his proposed guideline for Commons user pages was rejected.) Delicious carbuncle (talk) 23:19, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
  • That RFC uses the most convoluted, overly complicated discussion formatting I have ever seen. "No consensus" is practically guaranteed before you even begin... Beeblebrox (talk) 23:07, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
I'm trying to imagine the thought process of whoever decided to divide the RFC into twenty-seven seperate discussions... Although I have myself been criticized for the unusual structures of some RFCs I have started, how anyone could ever have thought that would work is beyond me. (Blatant plug: see here for my essay on how to do these things. ) Beeblebrox (talk) 23:36, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

Non-English content on user pages

I tried searching for something about this topic, but the search always timed out on me. So, please forgive me if this topic has been covered before.

Does the user page policy have anything to say about user pages with substantial non-English content? Occasionally I will encounter someone's user page where the content is entirely in a language other than English. I'll run in through Google Translate first to make sure it's not a candidate for {{db-spamuser}}. If it passes that test and is acceptable user page content, is it OK to stay even if it's not English? --Drm310 (talk) 15:49, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

We don't require userpages to be in english. But if the foreign language content they have would otherwise violate any other uses of userpage policy, it should be deleted; if it seems legit, it should be kept (I can see this being the case of a person who may have ESL and is trying to help translate foreign sources for us, as one highly legit use.) --MASEM (t) 15:56, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
Good to know - thanks. --Drm310 (talk) 16:06, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
There is content somewhere, or at least ambiguously worded content intended to relate to article talk pages that has been used to warn non-English native language editors from talking their own language on their own talk page. The ambiguity needs to be found and cleaned up. In ictu oculi (talk) 14:20, 27 June 2013 (UTC)
Resolved

Wikipedia:External links had an edit done on 7 Oct 2010. The change was to avoid inclusion of online petitions in articles. Since then We the People (petitioning system) was launched and is mentioned in many articles. The discussion at Wikipedia_talk:External_links/Archive_30 (7.) was brief and with little participation. There is a current discussion at Talk:Bradley Manning to have any mention of petitions kept out of the article. Is it time we reviewed this guideline change an re-worded it? The online government petitions do receive wide media coverage and many editors believe we should reflect that in articles.--Canoe1967 (talk) 16:51, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

  • Seems you have mixed up a couple different issues. Whether to discuss a petition in an article is a matter of verifiability and due weight, and thus subject to case by case, article by article, consensus. External Linking to the petition itself is not necessary, and is a matter of promoting a petition, which the pedia generally has no wish to do. Alanscottwalker (talk) 21:20, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
I don't have mixed them up but other editors are. Some don't want to include wide media coverage of petitions at Talk:Bradley Manning and citing this as the guideline to not even mention them in text. I can understand not linking to them but that may need clarification in the guideline. "Online petitions may be mentioned but direct links should be avoided" type thing. Pop over to the Manning talk page and see what I mean. I brought up the fact the policy may need an edit and was told to discuss policy elsewhere. I walked away but I think they are still locked in their discussion of it.--Canoe1967 (talk) 01:22, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
I'm not sure there was any real confusion at Talk:Bradley Manning. Nobody suggested that the guideline forbids mentioning petitions. It was pointed out that the external links guideline prohibits links to petitions, and nobody seems to have queried it except Canoe1967. The discussion has been over the (lack of) media coverage of the petition - an issue of WP:WEIGHT. As for any proposal to change the guideline, I personally would object on principle to any change that singled out a particular form of petition specific to the U.S. as some sort of exception to the existing 'no links' guideline, and frankly can't see the need to revise the policy at all. It seems clear enough to me. AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:56, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
It does read clearly but it was not written correctly. A wider consensus should have been done back in Oct 2010 instead of just a few editors on the talk page. The editor that did add it stated that he did it boldly. If I actually cared more then I would revert and then the next step would be discuss further. It is cited at the Bradley talk page as a reason for not including any mention of the petitions at all. There is wide coverage of them but there seems to be a deadlock on how wide the coverage should be. It seems we have to wait for five newspapers to dedicate their first three pages to the petitions before some editors will accept them as well covered. We could also wait for a movie, book, and three songs about them. Then at least we could include them in a popular culture section.--Canoe1967 (talk) 02:07, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
You are completely misrepresenting the discussion at Talk:Bradley Manning. The 'wide' coverage consists of little more than a couple of mentions in passing, as far as mainstream sources are concerned. As for revising the links policy, you are of course welcome to make a proposal - but 'reverting' a policy change made three years ago without yourself engaging prior discussion would be entirely unjustifiable. AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:15, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
As a late comment, let me add that WP:EL says repeatedly that it has absolutely nothing to do with reliable sources for article content. I believe that the current count is that the EL guideline mentions this fact in eight different places. If you need it to be in nine places so that you'll believe that it truly has absolutely nothing to do with what subjects you can talk about in the article, or which reliable sources you're permitted to cite, then feel free to leave a note at the guideline's talk page. WhatamIdoing (talk) 07:12, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

Use of non-free Bible translations

There is an RfC concerning what should Wikipedia's policy be on the use of non-free Bible translations: Wikipedia talk:Non-free content#RfC: Use of non-free Bible translations.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 13:51, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

Anthrax (UK band) vs Anthrax (band)

Anthrax (UK band) Anthrax (band) relates to WP:PDAB in archive 107 here. In ictu oculi (talk) 14:21, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

Blocking IPs

When Wikipedia blocks an IP or IP range, right, don't they exercise some care and circumspection in order to limit collateral blockage? Like, they try not to block any obviously public IPs, and limit their blocks of homes and private businesses to a short time (e.g., 30-90 days).

Does anyone know of other websites that do not engage in the same level of care in blocking IPs in attempts to keep "banned users" from registering? Is it true that some websites don't care -- they will even block the entire NY Public Library system and City Hall just to keep one guy off the site. And keep these IP's blocked forever. I know of this one site that has done that, and has practically blocked the wireless IP's of every coffee and bagel joint in Manhattan's financial district. What gives?

Why do they no care? Pams Ale House (talk) 14:46, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Please read Wikipedia:Blocking IP addresses, which should answer any questions you have about blocking IPs or IP ranges on Wikipedia. postdlf (talk) 16:14, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
Normally when IP addresses are blocked, they are soft blocked, which means that registered users using those addresses can continue to sign on, which minimizes collateral damage. IP addresses are only hard-blocked in extreme cases. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:27, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

RfC on editing other user's article talk page comments with Flow

Wikipedia:Flow is a planned improvement to the way MediaWiki software handles article talk pages. There is an RfC about how to configure Flow regarding editing other people's article talk page comments. Your input would be welcome. The RfC is at Wikipedia talk:Flow#Request for Comment on editing other user's comments with Flow. --Guy Macon (talk) 13:19, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

Extend WP:disruptive editing to include an unbearable incompetence

Some thoughts induced by user talk: Arthur Rubin #Pirokiazuma and messages at user talk: Pirokiazuma. The current formulation of “disruptive editing” focuses on the chronic case: over a long time or many articles. But IMHO a short-time disruption is also a disruption, and the question is merely to estimate whether the user is able to contribute productively in the near future, or s/he will continue disruptions further if not blocked or deterred in other way. An acute case should be included to the policy or, better, several stereotypical, easily recognizable cases. I propose to discuss the case of unbearable incompetence.

This concrete WP:Randy was blocked as a vandal first, which was not the case. I’m sure that many Randies were blocked in the past for false accusations. As these editors do not have a merit, as they are detestable for most contributors, consequently nobody tried to defend them from unjust punishments. But it is a hypocrisy. If one is blocked with the “vandal” substantiation, then s/he has to be a vandal, not a person so harmful as vandals are in opinion of the administrator. So, it would be honest to classify acute Randies with their dedicated subcategory of disruptive editors: unbearably incompetent editors.

We must establish some formal conditions to check against an abuse. I propose the following set. First, the user in question has to edit more than one mainspace page during the last 72 hours (otherwise a page protection can be an option) and to make no less than 4 edits during the last 24 hours which were reverted by other editors (distinct from potentially blocking admin, though) and not defended by any other editor in a good standing (I mean, an account which does not look like a sock or a meatpuppet of the same editor in question).

Second, the user has to violate at least one behavioural policy: to conduct an WP:Edit war, or to make a personal attack, or to commit a serious breach of WP:talk page guidelines such as a censorship attempt or refactoring other’s postings. Removal of {{AfD}} templates also can be counted in this paragraph. I think, a list of typical offences can be compiled.

Third, the user must be warned before the last offence. Warned both for a general disruptivity and a concrete type of offence s/he makes. “Offence” means either something from the second (previous) paragraph, or just reinstating an already rejected edit, no matter to the same article or to a new one.

If all three conditions are met, then an admin should be able to block the user. A seasoned contributor shall be blocked for a medium to long term (a week or over), new users shall be blocked indefinitely. Incnis Mrsi (talk) 14:44, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

Is there any evidence that this is an ongoing problem? Creating a whole new set of complex rules to deal with a single case looks to me like overkill. AndyTheGrump (talk) 15:08, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
We already have WP:CIR and WP:CLUE, but Hanlon's razor applies. If the editor refuses to get a clue, then they are typically dealt with as circumstances allow; it is much more irritating to have someone make strawmans and drag out matters to drive away other editors; that is WP:DE and it generally is not a single page event. The whole RANDY issue is difficult because people are likely to enable and AGF because they do not realize sword-wielding skeletons; primarily in the case of esoteric subjects with few editors, exist. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 15:17, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
Neither CIR nor CLUE are official. WP:AGF has nothing to do with my proposal: making an evil thing after warnings is, theoretically, a blockable offence. “Enablers” is something which I read about, but rarely saw in practice. I knew only one enabler (of mainspace Randies) in ru.wikipedia, and some borderline cases here though related to the “struggle for etiquette”, not to content issues. Esoteric subjects – yes, they exist, but a Randy rarely restricts himself to an esoteric subject only. Incnis Mrsi (talk) 16:09, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
It is not a single case: I investigated several and likely saw many more in histories. It is not a “new set”: it is intended to enforce existing policies, guidelines, and recognized best practices such as WP:BRD. The problem is not new, of course: I do not pretend that there is some surge in Randies in 2013. But they can destroy Wikipedia some day, after experts became too tired to defend articles. BTW, IPs should not be excluded too: they are sometimes disruptive and difficult to catch a block due to the double standard. Incnis Mrsi (talk) 15:19, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
Seems counter to AGF; so what you are proposing will not stand. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 15:43, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
This was a one-off low-level problem that was easy to deal with. The disruption was very specific and geared to limitations/errors of the particular editor. I cannot see any point in trying to suggest this might be a more general phenomenon. By wikipedia standards, it was dealt with fairly quickly. Wikipedia was not under threat and these particular circumstances required no special expertise. Mathsci (talk) 16:04, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
It was dealt relatively quickly due to Pirokiazuma’s suicidal attitude… but a Randy with a lower dick pressure possibly would continue his disruptions for several days more, if not weeks. Incnis Mrsi (talk) 16:36, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
Today it appeared that the problem is far from being solved. Incnis Mrsi (talk) 16:12, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
I'm trying to figure out what you are attempting to solve. WP:COMPETENCE may be an essay, but I'm far from the only admin that will block based on its reasoning. If you wanted to turn it into a formal guideline, you'd probably find widespread support.—Kww(talk) 22:52, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
I want to have a practically applicable (although restrictive) policy which could eject a Randy in 2–3 days. Not general reasonings about types and origins of incompetence, but definite steps from first signs of content disruption to the block. Incnis Mrsi (talk) 16:12, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
You probably won't ever get consensus for that. The bright-line rules (like 3RR) are difficult to get people to endorse, and probably lead to more discussion rather than less. Any automatic set of thresholds that led to indefinite blocking aren't going to fly.—Kww(talk) 16:53, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
If one cannot change anything in blocking policies, then we should anticipate that Wikipedia will continue with slow, but steady increase of hypocrisy in its social structure. Now I’m not sure neither that Wikipedia deserves so much of my time, nor that I took a right decision when chose English Wikipedia. Incnis Mrsi (talk) 17:29, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
"If one cannot change anything in blocking policies, then we should anticipate that Wikipedia will continue with slow, but steady increase of hypocrisy in its social structure"? Why? How will not changing one thing lead to an increase in another? AndyTheGrump (talk)
Read my second paragraph from above, please. When somebody is disruptive and clearly useless, s/he has a high chance to get a block under a false pretext. A rare sysop can type something like “this editor damages such-and-so” in the block reason field. Usually, some convenient, but false substantiation like vandalism and spamming is cited. This is a hypocrisy. Incnis Mrsi (talk) 17:47, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
Even if you are correct, and incompetence is being mislabelled as vandalism, that doesn't explain why not changing anything is going to make it happen more often. AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:50, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
Perhaps we should add WP:CIR to the examples of essays that admins block over at WP:The difference between policies, guidelines, and essays.
Also, depending on the circumstances, a few days can be "a long period of time" under WP:DE. We don't specify a minimum time period. WhatamIdoing (talk) 07:03, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
I agree that something should be done about unbearable incompetence. I partly disagree about "hypocrisy" and "false pretexts" in blocking such users. Just because there is no perfect template for warning a user does not mean that a template should not be used with an explanation. Today I had to use the disruptive editing template on an IP address in Romania for posting nearly incomprehensible comments, apparently about a mathematical algorithm that I had not been editing, on my talk page. (The foreign editor apparently not only has inadequate mastery of English, but is also confused.) I provided an explanation. I agree that completely incompetent users should be blocked, and that the essay on competence should be upgraded to a guideline or even a policy. (The distinction between policies, guidelines, and essays has never been a bright line.) Robert McClenon (talk) 00:55, 29 June 2013 (UTC)
I'm going to veer off-topic for a second and point out that the dividing line between policies and guidelines on one side, and essays on the other, is that essays do not have to have consensus. They can be an explicit statement of a view that has not achieved general acceptance, at least not yet. If you disagree with a policy or guideline, you should try to get it changed, seeking consensus for the change; if you disagree with an essay, that's inappropriate in general, because the authors are ordinarily entitled to present their views. --Trovatore (talk) 03:04, 29 June 2013 (UTC)
There has been a spate of blocking/unblocking recently of editors who believe themselves to be working in good faith but who persistently get things terribly wrong. As the majority of these users who fall under WP:CIR are most probably very young, when cautioned, they often respond with righteous indignation, and trespass into the no-no areas of PA and incivility when they have sufficiently exasperated the community to the extent that they end up getting topic banned or or even indef blocked. One of the problems is that while we can adopt users and mentor them in the ways of Wikipedia, it is not within our remit to be pedagogues and help them grow up - maturity only comes with time. If they have to be blocked or have their editing rights limited to certain conditions, then that is the only solution. It's often argued that citing WP:CIR is not appropriate - maybe because it's 'only' an assay, but I'm beginning to see it as needing promotion to a guideline that can be cited without controversy. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 02:45, 29 June 2013 (UTC)
I personally agree with the guideline/essay, though I don't really like it when people cite it because suggesting that someone is incompetent seems kind of rude. ~Adjwilley (talk) 05:07, 29 June 2013 (UTC)
The majority by activity, but not by threat which they pose to an encyclopedia exactly due to your “no-no areas” explication. Look at user talk:50.73.253.49 (previously user talk:99.102.158.150, the same person) for an example of an unbearably incompetent editor without an apparent youngster’s behavioural pattern. Incnis Mrsi (talk) 07:55, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

RUDE!

I had a wellcome message from an administrator and tried to answer "thank you" in his page without my user name, I hadnt logged in. Then I suddenly saw a message that I was not allowed to edit -I was blocked with a non specific message. I can still edit with my user name so if anybody has a problem with my edits (and I really can not imagine who and why) he must also block this account to. The messsage goes like that "Editing from 46.103.0.0/16 has been blocked (disabled) by CT Cooper for the following reason(s): Long term abuse: Range being used by Antony1821." I beleive it s a mistake but nevertheles when somebody can block just because he-she is an administrator, shouldn' he at least explain why? Shouldn't the blocked one know what he or seomebody else from his PC has done? It is really absolutely rude to block without explanations. Even if I wanted to ask to be unblocked (to "appeal")- I certainly would consider a priority to know what exactly the accusation is about. I am deeply dissapointed and I strongly suggest to be polite with women and men editing. It is absolutely necesssary to be polite and explain the reasons you block. This (the polite explanations) must be a central dicisionOlmav (talk) 19:10, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

  • Ok, let me try to clarify the situation for you:
  • It appears your underlying IP address is blocked as part of what is called a range block, a tool used to stop abusive users who use multiple IPs.
  • Clearly your account is not blocked or you would not have been able to make this post.
  • This is not a reflection on you and you are not the intended target.
  • There is in fact an explanation, you have quoted in your message: the same IP range you are using has been used by a long-term-abuser of Wikipedia.
  • The reason you were not informed is that until you posted this message nobody knew what your IP was. The fact that the same range was used by an abusive user is simply a coincidence.
I hope this has helped clarify this matter for you, I will also inform the admin who issued the block of this thread in case they have anything to add. Beeblebrox (talk) 19:47, 27 June 2013 (UTC)
It turns out the admin who issues the block is currently not available due to real-life issues. Beeblebrox (talk) 19:52, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

I've modified the section title so that it doesn't break the WP:DASHBOARD. 64.40.54.200 (talk) 02:49, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for the quiqk response, still it is a matter of principle to be polite by giving explanations a priori, explaining the action you take when you block: i.e. "because of your article so and so". Making the accusations public is a basic democratic and legal principle not only for the abuser whom one blocks. It protects the entire community -the "good guys" included. I wont refer to this again though I m still blocked. Thank you once moreOlmav (talk) 08:42, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
You are not blocked. Your IP range is, and it is well explained why. When blocks to users are given, rest assured it is done with extensive explanation and discussion. If you have an account, by the way, you definitely should use it and not edit anonymously -even if in good faith, it is still sockpuppetry and may create problems. Thanks, and sorry for the inconvenience! --Cyclopiatalk 09:54, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
It's also probably worth pointing out that (unless they have checkuser rights, which most don't) the blocking admin has no way of knowing who else is using the IP range when they perform a rangeblock - they therefore can't notify you in advance, because they don't know you're affected. As long as you are logged in, you can edit freely, and editing while logged out of your account is inadvisable anyway. Essentially, this block doesn't affect you at all - it was not directed at you, allows you to edit and is not entered in your own history. Yunshui 雲‍水 10:12, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
I do not agree with Olmav’s point. If a range is used by a known enemy of people, then it is a sufficient reason to issue a WP:SOFTBLOCK. WP:IP addresses are not people, and this technical condition does not imply that Wikipedia disfavours any of other contributors from the range. "[B]ecause of your article so and so" – sorry, it is silly and completely naïve. All that a legitimate user should know is that s/he needs to log in: an exposition of the vandal’s achievements is redundant and even harmful. Incnis Mrsi (talk) 11:09, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
  • I have modified the reason to {{anonblock}}. In my opinion, long-term soft rangeblocks should almost always use a block reason that 1) doesn't accuse the user of any wrongdoing; and 2) explains to innocent users how to get an account. If the targeted user has been abusive to the point that a rangeblock would be necessary, chances are they know how to sock already, so such a message won't be giving them any help. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 05:25, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Verifying the identity of someone who claims to know the article's subject

I recently ran across a case of someone who said she was the wife of an article's subject and was saying we got certain biographical details wrong (kids). Is there some sort of a procedure in place for verifying that she is who she says she is, or a WP: help page with suggestions? (Note, the user in question is User:Judyameredith.) ~Adjwilley (talk) 00:02, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

I would advise her to provide the correct information on the article's talk page. If she can provide a reliable source, then the article will almost certainly be corrected based on the verified information. It isn't important to verify whether she is who she says that she is. It is more important to verify whether the information that she supports is reliably sourced. (If she is who she says she is, she is a primary source, and one with a conflict of interest. Alternatively, you can post the information to the article's talk page, and it would be helpful if you would look for a reliable source. Robert McClenon (talk) 01:01, 27 June 2013 (UTC)
I think we normally remove poorly sourced personal material if anyone brings it up as incorrect. Just my 2c worth though.--Canoe1967 (talk) 01:30, 27 June 2013 (UTC)
We remove poorly sourced personal material from articles. I see no reason to remove poorly sourced personal comments from talk pages unless they violate some other policy. I think that poorly sourced comments that may be associated with the subject should be left on article talk pages. Robert McClenon (talk) 01:39, 27 June 2013 (UTC)
That is what I meant. Remove the material from the article until the material on the talk page is well sourced.--Canoe1967 (talk) 01:42, 27 June 2013 (UTC)
(edit conflict) Canoe1967 hits the nail on the head here. There are two unrelated issues. 1) When someone brings badly sourced information to our attention, we fix it by removing the bad information. If someone provides better sources, we use those to correct or amend the information. 2) We don't particularly need to verify who she says she is. We can take it at face value, or ignore her claims, because it has no bearing on the article content. Either the sources for the contested information exist or they do not. If they do, cite them. If the do not, remove the info. Who she says she is is irrelevant. --Jayron32 01:44, 27 June 2013 (UTC)
Thank you all for the clarification and the advice. I've asked her for a source (not sure if she'll respond) and rephrased the article to something that will work until a good source is found. ~Adjwilley (talk) 04:08, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

Update:...after digging into this some more, and after receiving an email from a person who knows the subject, it seems that the online sources have it wrong as well. The person I'm communicating with has volunteered to obtain a signed letter from the subject and to publish it online as a "primary" source. My concern is, will this "primary" source be able to trump the "secondary" sources that seem to have gotten the details wrong? ~Adjwilley (talk) 00:16, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

There is an essay at WP:Inaccuracy that discusses this issue.  The WP:DUE weight assigned to the primary and secondary sources is a function of editorial opinion.  The first question is whether the primary source is a WP:RS for the information being considered.  Unscintillating (talk) 12:39, 29 June 2013 (UTC)
If is just the children and wives that are in question then you could probably delete the whole family section as undue and contentious. He isn't notable for his family life. If someone doesn't like removing it then just change it to X number of wives and X number of children. I don't know why that tabloid bit is in his article about one of his sons. It belongs in the son's article if one exists.--Canoe1967 (talk) 18:12, 29 June 2013 (UTC)
@User:Unscintillating, thank you, that is the page I was looking for. @Canoe1967, I may end up doing just that. Thanks all! ~Adjwilley (talk) 15:46, 30 June 2013 (UTC)
  • Correct information always trumps incorrect information. It is better to have unsourced correct information rather than sourced error, if you are convinced that the error is an error. This is where the policy of IAR comes in. If it's wrong, and you know it's wrong, fix it. Fix it in a sourced way if you can; but fix it regardless. Carrite (talk) 15:00, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Allegation that Adam Lanza edited Wikipedia

There is no way that the identity of the individual who used a pseudonymous account that has not edited for years can be confirmed or denied. The information simply is not there. Risker (talk) 21:49, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Investigative report finds Adam Lanza - Sandy Hook serial killer - edited Wikipedia.

"Mass Murders Captivated Online User Believed To Be Adam Lanza".

"Between August 2009 and February 2010, the same user name linked to Lanza made revisions to 12 Wikipedia entries about massacres across the world during the same 2009 to 2010 time frame as the gun website and gaming chat-room posts. One entry meticulously specifies the weapons Kip Kinkel used at the age of 15 to kill his parents before going on a shooting spree at his Oregon high school, where two were killed and 25 were wounded in May 1998."

Is there a policy about Wikipedia edits made by mass murderers? -- Green Cardamom (talk) 05:14, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

What kind of policy are you hoping to find? postdlf (talk) 05:19, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
concerning criminals editing on subjects related to their crimes. -- Green Cardamom (talk) 06:19, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
(ec) So what should we say? "If you are a criminal, you may not edit articles on subjects related to your crimes"? Even if such a policy would do any good, and it's hard to imagine that it would, in the time period you speak of, I am unaware of any crimes Lanza might have committed. So what then? --Trovatore (talk) 06:39, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
But what's the policy you are looking for here? If you have reason to question an editor's judgment or neutrality, then review their edits to see if they are verifiable and NPOV and/or notify other editors on the affected article's talk pages. That's just sound judgment; you shouldn't need a written edict somewhere to tell you that, or any "policy" specifically tailored to this particular case. So, no, we do not have "a policy about Wikipedia edits made by mass murderers." postdlf (talk) 06:37, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
...and this is all assuming you're not talking about someone using WP itself to threaten or commit a crime or harm to others, correct? Because that would be a completely different situation than merely discovering after the fact that someone who committed a heinous act had edited WP years ago. postdlf (talk) 07:04, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
Provided he hasn't edited articles related to his crimes (do they have internet in prison?) then there is unlikely to be a WP:COI violation. Most editors edit within their area of expertise so that isn't really a concern in itself. We do have policies against "outing" editors though, so hopefully editors won't try to identify him. Betty Logan (talk) 07:20, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
It's basically public information now so outing can't really be a concern - first page of my first Google search. And you're crazy if you think editors aren't going to try and figure it out; our species is obsessed with violence and the perpetrators thereof . Sædontalk 23:04, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Does Wikipedia have a (generic) ethics policy (of any kind)? -- Green Cardamom (talk) 07:40, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

The WP:Five pillars is as close as it gets. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 07:46, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
Other than policies regarding conduct, no. I don't think it should either; everyone is entitled to edit Wikipedia regardless of their political views, personal perception of society, religious beliefs as well as any other possible discriminants as long as their edits comply with Wikipedia's editing policies and guidelines. YuMaNuMa Contrib 07:50, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
I've occasionally thought that having an ethics policy, along the lines of a professional code of ethics, would be a good thing, but I can't see one being accepted. What there is of a code of ethics is embedded in the policies, guidelines and terms of service. - Bilby (talk) 08:15, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

This discussion is probably using words defined by William Chester Minor, another murderer. Have we got a policy to prevent this? - X201 (talk) 08:43, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Jimbo used to reserve the right to ban people for "bringing the project into disrepute" simply because of who they are. I think he had pedophiles in mind when he said that. Such things can still be done by office action if something extreme is going on, like a mass murderer is actively editing Wikipedia from prison. But I'm not sure what policy the OP is searching for here. What, retroactively deleting content from Wikipedia because it was added by a guy that later killed people? Totally unnecessary, but maybe I'm misreading. Someguy1221 (talk) 10:02, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Why should we care about who edits? Let us care about the edits themselves. You can be the worst children-eating monster in the world, but if you do good edits to the wiki, you should be allowed to edit. --Cyclopiatalk 10:13, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Dealing with this would require some sort of foreknowledge about who is going to to what. Lanza likely edited prior to the shootings, since editing Wikipedia postmortem is still difficult not possible. That said, many prisons have internet (see Internet in prisons) and screening IPs would be doable, though difficult. Maybe create a Shared IP template for prisons? --Auric talk 11:03, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Why should we screen? I find it ethically disgusting to screen prisoners. For them, editing Wikipedia constructively is something positive they contribute to society, and it is maybe even something that helps bringing him back to society (following rules with other users, being polite and respectful, collaboratively constructing something). And we aim to block that? --Cyclopiatalk 11:26, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
Not to block, but to identify, as with {{Shared IP edu}} and {{Shared IP gov}}. I have no problem with prisoners making decent edits, but with the few that probably vandalize. --Auric talk 11:40, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
I'm not sure if editing information from 2009-2010 is relevant to any actual Wikipedia article I can think of. Are we going to vet and try to ascertain if every single edit to any kind of article about the human pain and misery that murder causes came from an IP or a user-account somehow associated with the perpetrator? Is every editor who contributed to crime articles going to be retroactively vetted now? Are we in danger of being outed because we watch over matters that attracts the worst kind of vile edits imaginable? Besides, where would the stated information be pertinent to this encyclopedia? The matter about the Lanza information has also been raised at the Sandy Hook Talk page, but would this information be pertinent to Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting? Why would it fit there? To me it seems to be ghoulish information that is inappropriate to the project. How about I go out and do research on the Hartford Courant and come up with a sensational headline that perhaps could state "Mass Murderer Adam Lanza Read Hartford Courant Every Day" and somehow get it published in a reliable source? Would that information be appropriate to add to the Wikipedia article about the Courant? Besides, even if this person did edit Wikipedia, did the account vandalize? Did it add unsourced information? Did it do anything that warranted any Warnings on his account? No?...then, barring a policy/guideline change or specific guidance about this issue from WMF legal, it appears to me to be none of our business. I do not know and will not do any research to figure out what the account is, but would ask if the alleged account's talk page could possibly be protected to keep any extraneous postings from showing up there with this being in the news. Shearonink (talk) 15:06, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Ok, let's clear a few things up:

  • Adam Lanza is not a serial killer, he was a spree killer
  • I say "was" because he killed himself at the end of his killing spree, so there is literally no chance he editied any articles related to his crimes.
  • We don't even know the username, and even speculating about it on-wiki would constitute WP:OUTING, and it would be a really poor idea to start stirring up suspiscions of this sort without any verification.

So I don't see anything we can or should be "doing" about the possibility that he edited some articles several years ago. Beeblebrox (talk) 15:16, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Agreed. Shearonink (talk) 15:28, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Certain infamous criminals could bring disrepute to the project for their involvement in certain subjects. The Courant investigation linked in the OP just came out. We'll see how it plays out, it could take on a life or not. Nobody has yet identified the userid in question, though it would be trivial to figure out by following the clues in the Courant, and being infamous and dead privacy is less of an issue for outing. -- Green Cardamom (talk) 15:32, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Further discussion here here (sorry, started it in two spots originally). -- Green Cardamom (talk) 15:37, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

So what do you think we should do? Revert all of his dozen or so edits made years ago, regardless of whether they were good ones, just on the basis of him later becoming infamous? Change his correct edit of "9mm" back to the incorrect ".9mm"?

Or are you hoping for a discussion about active accounts linked to living infamous people? Because you haven't said anything about that. I for one am finding it frustrating to try and read your mind here. So stop being coy and either say what you're thinking and what you want to happen in concrete and specific terms or drop the subject, because you're not doing a lot to guide the discussion even though you seem to want it to go somewhere. postdlf (talk) 15:49, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

  • The WP:OUTING risk here is less that we would correclty identify him than that we could incorrectly identify a user as having been Lanza. Better to leave it alone and not engage in original research. That's my nice way of saying that if I see anyone engaging in such speculation all that will result is that their edits will go down the rabbit hole in they will be indef blocked. Fair warning. Beeblebrox (talk) 16:20, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
Thank you. Shearonink (talk) 16:38, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Ok based on my readings of this thread, it seems like, in terms of Lanza, there's not much to be done until his ID is revealed in a reliable secondary source, and really only then if it becomes a public issue that impacts the reputation of Wikipedia it could be brought up by way of office action and/or Wales. Otherwise normal rules apply. Thanks for everyone who contributed constructively and civilly your knowledge on these issues. -- Green Cardamom (talk) 17:43, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

The source cited above [4] is pretty unambiguous. It says:
A revision involving the Sept. 13, 2006, shooting at Dawson College in Montreal, in which one student was killed and 19 others wounded, is quite particular about how the article posted on Wikipedia describes the firearm used by the killer.
" '9mm' was listed as '.9mm.' People say that 9mm is anemic, but this is ridiculous," the poster believed to be Lanza says in explaining his revision.
This posting can in fact be found [5].
Nonetheless, there is nothing that should be done about it. Wikipedia keeps open records. There are plenty of cities -- unfortunately -- which have invested in public surveillance systems, and if any of them were as open with the records as Wikipedia is, then you could look up the footage and say OMG some spree murderer walked past my house in 2006! but it wouldn't matter. Of course, if someone wants to look them over and check for inaccuracies to fix, they can [I think we ought to give a pass on WP:Wikistalking here], but their work is probably better spent in routine patrolling. Wnt (talk) 17:53, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
By the way - for some reason I don't understand, User:Beeblebrox revdeled a note I placed on the user's talk page warning him about the article and this discussion. I had merely repeated the information above, so that if it turns out he really isn't Lanza and logs in someday he'll know he has a very peculiar and unpleasant issue to deal with in the mainstream press. I don't see what's the matter with warning an innocent person in this fashion; and of course if he is Lanza then he won't be reading the message. Wnt (talk) 19:53, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
(ec) Let's nip this in the bud right now so we don't have to revisit this in the future with every new newspaper article. 1) What do you, Green Cardamom, think should be done assuming that the account has been identified that the now-dead Lanza used more than three years ago, and 2) how do you think that could impact the reputation of Wikipedia? You obviously have some idea or else you wouldn't think it was a concern that needed to be raised, so again, don't force us to try and guess what you're thinking here. postdlf (talk) 17:55, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
I should follow up by noting that I found another discussion at [6] by looking at where User:Beeblebrox went after revdeling my edit, and apparently he regarded something similar there as a WP:OUTING issue. Nonetheless, I think we should think carefully about what that policy means! Is it outing:
  • To warn a user of a possibly erroneous news report linking his account to a nefarious killer in the press on his talk page? (which was redacted)
  • To post a link to a diff cited in multiple news reports? (which I did above, and he left alone so far)
  • To post a link to the news story that cites that diff (as the OP did here)
  • For Wikipedia to retain the account postings (left alone so far)
I think when you're holding a hammer everything looks like a nail, and some people too accustomed to their Delete buttons might think the answer here is to delete things, but I don't think it's a solution. There isn't anywhere to stop. Any fraction of either of these discussions is more than sufficient to pull out the data - merely knowing somebody thinks Lanza was spotted on Wikipedia inevitably starts a line of research that leads to his alleged account, according to the press. Outing on Wikipedia is a bad thing, yes, but when the actual press is covering something, it's not outing any more. (There are other issues in that policy about "opposition research" to undermine Wikipedia opponents with ad hominem arguments, but they clearly don't apply to a deceased and inactive editor) And surely one of the worst ways to handle it is to allow a wide discussion of the editor's role on multiple policy and news pages, but not notification of the User that he is the topic of discussion. The solution we should adopt in this case is simply to leave everything as it is, and let Wikipedia proudly live and die by the policy of openness it chose at the start. Wnt (talk) 20:18, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
I should followup that now New York Magazine is the third source I know of to cite this, this one giving the username directly: [7] I think the three are good enough sourcing for it to be in the main article, actually. It also looks like some of the Wikipediocracy-linked sources have been putting out their own sort of blurbs about it [8] and a blacklisted Examiner article which I won't try to get away with citing just now. Bottom line: by now more has been written about this account than the 12 lousy diffs are worth. If the username is actually a reference to Biblical Cain it is an interesting state-of-mind reference point for sociologists, though. Wnt (talk) 20:34, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
Well I certainly agree with you that far more is being made of this than it warrants. It possibly speaks somewhat to his state of mind, if it was even him, that he was apparently studying other spree killers three years before his own crimes, but it says nothing about Wikipedia. How they can call twelve edits an "obsession" with editing such articles is beyond me. However, it does seem like the cat is now out of the bag, but we still have no actual hard evidence that this was Adam Lanza, and its unlikely we ever will. This is another area where the press has got it wrong. They insinuate Wikipedia 'won't tell them if it was or not for "privacy reasons" when the real is answer is of course that we simply don't have any way of knowing who anyone is unless they decide to tell us, and if that was Adam Lanza it is far too late for him to tell us anything. Beeblebrox (talk) 21:13, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
Well, if we agree the cat is out of the bag, then could you un-revdel my note, and give your assurance that it's OK for us to talk about the username directly at these discussions? (Posting about it in the Signpost or citing it at the Lanza article might be another matter because they have higher standards, but at least they should be assured that it is within their normal editorial decision-making) Wnt (talk) 21:41, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Clarification of conflict between WP:MEAT/WP:COI and WP:OUTING

If you find a bunch of new editors editing an article and then you find that one of the longer term editors is using a website with a strong POV to invite these new editors to join Wikipedia, what should be done about this? Would bringing it up on Wikipedia be WP:OUTING / harassment? Or can we bring it up as it is meatpupperty / an obvious COI? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 00:37, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Linking to a website that outs an editor is outing the editor. Therefore, that cannot be done. If it's a garage-band kind of article, I'm not sure what can be done. If it's something with greater significance, the problem could be described at a noticeboard (perhaps WP:COIN), with a general statement that there is an influx of new editors, and Google searching suggests that recruitment may be occurring. That is, a hint which does not connect the dots is ok, but anything more is not. Johnuniq (talk) 01:28, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
This sort of compulsory disingenuousness is a good argument as to why WP:OUTING is in need of serious modification. I know it's not easy — somehow it has to be done without breaking promises on which editors have already relied, and we need to protect editors whose governments are less protective of speech than Florida and the United States are. But the way it's implemented currently is just bizarre. --Trovatore (talk) 01:41, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
Leave a message on ANI along the lines of: "Given this <link to website where invites are occurring> website, I am concerned about the potential for meat-puppetry and POV abuse at relevant article name." Our admins can figure out what is going on without you actually accusing (or "outing") any specific editor. Blueboar (talk) 01:57, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
In my opinion, if the user creates an article on their band, linking to the band's webpage (even if it contains the members' real names) would not be considered outing, as long as it is relevant and not done with malicious intent. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 02:02, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
In the case KoH just described, wouldn't the user be "outing" himself?... that's perfectly fine. Blueboar (talk) 13:07, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
Sorry, to clarify: I mean that another user links to the band's webpage. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 01:42, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Singles vs. Songs

While trawling throguh some of my favourite MJ songs, I came across this old debate on the Scream/Childhood talk page. I had always thoguht it seemed rather disjointed and bizarre, so decided to investigate further. The following is probably the most intelligent analysis in the discussion, and one which I wholeheartedly agree with. If followed, this would affect Wikipedia's policies with how it approaches songs and singles: --Coin945 (talk) 12:24, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Wikipedia covers songs rather than singles, hence "You and I (Will Young song) " and "Don't Let Me Down (Will Young song)" existing separately despite being released as a double-A side entitled "Don't Let Me Down"/"You and I". 03md 17:50, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
I can't find any evidence of this last assertion anywhere in any Wikipedia guideline. Personally, I don't see anything wrong with keeping a unified article. There's no particular reason I can find why a Wikipedia article can't be about the entity that is a double-A single. I think it'd probably be more helpful to broaden the article to include discussion about why these two songs were put together in a double-A format, rather than released as two traditional A/B singles. Part of the noteworthiness of the two songs is that they were released singly in this way.
That said, there is clear precedence for splitting the article up, even if there are no rules which say it has to be split up. None of the Beatles' double-A's are done as a "joint" article like this. And from a cursory look at several other artists, like Elvis and Dolly Parton, it would appear that User:03md is correct that, in practice if not by rule, "Wikipedia covers songs rather than singles".
Perhaps the best solution is one drawn from the literary world. There are occasions on Wikipedia where collections of short stories are given an article, and then the notable short stories from that volume are also given their own articles, as with Tales of the Grotesque and Arabesque and "The Fall of the House of Usher". So, if possible, I'd like to see this article remain where it is, with most of its discussion centered around the decision to release as a double-A. Scream/Childhood should primarily answer the questions, "How well did the work sell?", "Why were these two songs released together?", "When was it released?" and other matters that pertain to the single work that is Scream/Childhood. Then, the individual songs of the release should be given their own articles, i.e., Scream (song) and Childhood (song), should no longer be redirects, but rather filled with the content of Scream/Childhood#Scream and Scream/Childhood#Childhood. I realize this isn't the way double-As are currently done, but it really should be. Double-As are notable for the very fact that they are double-As. It's virtually impossible to accurately give chart positions for the two songs arising from a double-A. The single's sales don't really apply to either "Scream" or "Childhood"; it only applies to Scream/Childhood. There's no way to tell when someone buys a double-A whether they're buying it for "Scream" or "Childhood". In fact, they're likely buying it equally for both. To the extent that airplay or (now, but not then) internet downloads figure into the formula to determine chart position, you can kinda approximate which is the more popular side, but it's really a whole different animal than a traditional A/B single. So, Scream/Childhood should definitely be preserved, even if this article is eventually split in some way to highlight the two individual songs better.
The fact that we're not currently doing this with other double-As is no excuse for the sloppiness of, say, the "Yellow Submarine" article asserting that the "Yellow Submarine" single went to #2 in the US, while "Eleanor Rigby" (the other A side) went to only #11. The reason for the discrepancy is of course airplay, but there should be an article for the single which establishes sales for the single, which would obviously be the same for both songs. Statements in the Yellow Submarine article like: "[Yellow Submarine] won an Ivor Novello Award for the highest certified sales of any single issued in the UK in 1966." are just plain silly, even if they can be sourced. Worse, the YS article goes on to say, "Despite this, it sold 1,200,000 copies in only four weeks and earned the Beatles their twenty-first US Gold Record award, beating the record set by Elvis Presley." No mention is made over at the ER article about how many singles it sold, which is ridiculous. Precisely the same number of ER singles were sold as YS ones. Put a better way, the sales belong to the combined ER/YS release, not to the songs individually.
This necessitates, in my view, a reason in and of itself for Wikipedia to start writing articles about some notable singles, and as WP:NSONGS says, one criterion of notability is Gold Record status. CzechOut ☎
— ✍ 03:55, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

WP:HOTCAT on as a default

There is now over twice as much support to remove WP:HOTCAT turned on as a default as there was support of the initial proposal. WP:SNOW. -Nathan Johnson (talk) 00:08, 30 June 2013 (UTC)
Done. Legoktm (talk) 00:15, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

In this discussion last year a very small group of users discussed turning HotCat on by default and the discussion was closed with a decision to do so for all registered users. In the intervening months some problems have occurred as result of this, mainly the accidental creation of categories by users who see the + at the bottom of the page and assume, as is the case on many other websites, that it is a way to add a comment of their own. This results in their message not getting across and an admin needing to delete the useless category the unsuspecting newbie created. They don't even know they were using a gadget/tool/whatever. Therefore it is proposed that this decision be reversed. 22:39, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

  • Support As proposer. This decision was made with the support of only four users. It never should have been closed the way it was, and I am flabbergasted that it was actually done. Time to reverse this well-intended but naive error. Beeblebrox (talk) 22:38, 29 June 2013 (UTC)
  • Support I too have seen newbies mistake it for an "add comment" feature. I am not aware of any IP editors using hotcat, and a logged-in user who really wants it can enable the gadget for themselves. Chris857 (talk) 22:45, 29 June 2013 (UTC)
Well whaddya know, we've already got more support for undoing it than there was for doing it in the first place. Beeblebrox (talk) 22:59, 29 June 2013 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
  • Addendum In turning HotCat off by default, HotCat appears to have been turned off for everybody, including people like me who had it enabled in the Gadgets tab. I've advised one person at the helpdesk to just manually re-enable it, but we might want to post a central notice about the phenomenon. Acroterion (talk) 13:33, 30 June 2013 (UTC)
  • Comment. I'd like to see a proof that this was indeed a serious problem. The nom didn't even mention a single thread in which this was discussed, he just made an assertion that there is a widespread problem. For all we know, this might have been a very rare occurrence; and one that could be solved by adding a warning message to people using it for a first time or such. PS. Anyway, with all due respect, you are all missing the point. Turning on was supposed to make it easier and more friendly to add categories, both for new and old editors. Before we turn this off we should look at the stats for category creation and maintenance; I offer a counter-argument (backed up by as much data as the nom in this thread offered for his position) - that new editors were helped much more by this tool than confused. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 19:19, 30 June 2013 (UTC)
The thread that motivated this was WP:AN#Eyes please. Looie496 (talk) 19:43, 30 June 2013 (UTC)
    • Several of the supporting posts indicated that they had seen the issue arise - I certainly did. As for adding 'warning messages', that is the last thing we need to be doing with new users. The user interface is too complex as it is. And as for looking at stats, I have to wonder how many users have encountered this confusing interface and given up trying to edit at all? AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:33, 30 June 2013 (UTC)
    • It's obviously fooling new editors into thinking that it's a way to add content, which is a failure of the interface. I'd not oppose an easier-to-understand version, but it's been a continuous problem for months and it's resulted in many new editors getting bitten for adding categories to user pages on which they're trying to communicate, creating categories containing the text of an article and general trouble. There's nothing wrong with HotCat per se, but there is a failure of the UI design. Wikipedia is hard enough for new editors to use without adding a feature that leads them down a blind alley. Acroterion (talk) 19:49, 30 June 2013 (UTC)
      • See this [9] and this [10] for concerns expressed earlier. Acroterion (talk) 20:05, 30 June 2013 (UTC)
        • I posted a link to this thread for the editor whose block was discussed in that second archived discussion, with an apology. We should be happy that we didn't lose a contributor because of the block; he still contributes occasionally. The interface can be daunting for infrequent editors; my husband, who contributes intermittently, still needs assistance when performing editing functions which are more complex than text insertion or simple formatting. Without my assistance and encouragement, he would have taken one look at the editing interface and decided not to try. Horologium (talk) 16:22, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
Exactly. I had seen this more than once, as had others, but because we did not realize HotCat was now on by default (somehow the four users who made that decision did not do a good job making sure everyone else knew they did it) we did not put it together until yesterday. I did not take notes on every time I saw a weird category being created in the last 8 months and I doubt anyone else did either. This isn't about not liking HotCat, I personally find it to be a very useful tool, but these users didn't even know they were using it and had no idea what it was. And then they got lectured because we all thought they turned on HotCat and then used it in this clueless way. That's not a good thing. I'm sure this was done in good faith, but there was not enough participation in the intial discussion, which as far as I can tell was not advertised as an RFC or listed at CENT as should be done for any sort of site-wide change, and it had unintended consequences. Beeblebrox (talk) 19:59, 30 June 2013 (UTC)
Yea, this explains a new user question/issue I had a few months ago. His comments clearly showed that hotcat was turned on and the user had no idea what it was and what it did. All he knew was he had buttons that allowed the creation of any category link he wanted. I don't recall the details, but this was the guts of the discussion. Vegaswikian (talk) 20:54, 30 June 2013 (UTC)
Another example: A newcomer tried to leave me a message on my talkpage, using Hotcat, 10 days ago. –Quiddity (talk) 22:10, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

Oh thanks for disabling one of my gadgets. Might have been smart to make a visit to VP/T, then we could have discussed about a way to make the default only apply to non-IP users. It would have been quite easy to do, and not EVERYONE would have had to re enable the gadget manually. —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 11:49, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Yep, thanks for the warning that this was going... GiantSnowman 14:47, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
Are newbies making mistakes and even adding red linked categories a problem? Or is that merely an opportunity to explain to people how a tool works? I'm one of the people who had made thousands of Hotcat edits, thought it was great that Hostcat was switched on by default, and then got opted out of it when it was switched off. Did the people who supported taking this tool away realise they would be removing it from people who opted into it and used it for years? Did they realise that some of the people who'd lose it had been trained in Hotcat and been talked through setting it, those people may not be able to work out that they can get it back by setting their user preferences. ϢereSpielChequers 14:47, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
"Are newbies making mistakes and even adding red linked categories a problem?" Yes, when it leads (as has repeatedly been the case) to complete failures of communication, and to said newbies being blocked due to nobody realising what the problem was. We may very well have lost a significant number of potential contributors through adding an inappropriate, unexplained, and misleading 'gadget' to the interface in a position where it is entirely rational to expect an 'add comment' button or similar. If we are to attract new contributors, we need to ensure that they understand the basics of communication before worrying about ease of access to category tools etc. I'd have though this was obvious. AndyTheGrump (talk) 15:00, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Proposing IPs be unable to AfD articles

IP editors (no Wikipedia account) are generally new, lack a proven track record, often do not understand Wikipedia's guidelines and procedures, lack experience. While it is good to allow them to edit articles, giving them the power to AfD an article seems unwise. AfDs can use up considerable community time and attention. It is a power. It can be abused. My proposal is: only established users with an account and track record (perhaps a month of editing) should be able to AfD an article. I had thought IP editors can not AfD an article, but I found that Urban coyote was just AfDed a few days ago by an IP. The IP did not sign their name on the talk page; there is no "articles for deletion" page created yet. Just a mess.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 12:34, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

IP's can only create pages in talk namespaces so they cannot create the AfD page, but there is nothing preventing them from adding an AfD template to an article. WP:AFDHOWTO currently has a procedure for IP's. You should post a notification to Wikipedia talk:Articles for deletion. There may be discussions in the archives but I don't know. PrimeHunter (talk) 12:47, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
Good idea about the WP Articles for deletion page. Thanks.  Done--Tomwsulcer (talk) 12:56, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
I've completed the AfD creation process for Urban coyote on behalf of the IP. AndyTheGrump (talk) 13:10, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
Regarding the more general question, as long as Wikipedia permits anonymous editing by IPs, I think that preventing an IP from nominating an article for deletion would be inconsistent with other permissions. And while it is true that many IPs lack experience, others may have been editing for years, and undeserving of restrictions. I would suggest that if restrictions regarding AfDs are to be proposed, it needs to be done in the context of a broader debate on the merits of IP editing. AndyTheGrump (talk) 13:17, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
Inconsistent, you said? As far as I remember, IPs can’t create articles. What is wrong with disallowing them to start AfDs, the opposite operation? This permission offers not lesser possibilities for trolling. I even think that IPs’ possibility to redirect an article is too permissive, because a redirected article (unlike a blanked one, that appears at Special:ShortPages) can remain undetected. Incnis Mrsi (talk) 15:06, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
You should choose a page for the discussion and link to it from the other. Starting a separate discussion at Wikipedia talk:Articles for deletion#Proposing IPs be unable to AfD articles is certainly not what I had in mind. PrimeHunter (talk) 13:39, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
I just noticed that. I added a note to the AfD talk page linking here. No sense in having the discussion in more than one place, this one is older, so I directed it here with a simple note. Jguy TalkDone 15:13, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

I haven't ever seen such a high volume of AFDs from IP editors to make it a problem we need to legislate away rather than deal with them one at a time. postdlf (talk) 13:34, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

It could be a huge problem, if a few IPs figure that they can disrupt Wikipedia with seemingly legitimate but time-consuming AfD nominations. Wikipedia could be thought of as an open system easily attacked by a virus.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 17:58, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
I don't like this part: 'My proposal is: only established users with an account and track record (perhaps a month of editing) should be able to AfD an article.' of your original post. What are we going to say about Mr. New Guy who AfD's an article that clearly meets the criteria for deletion (e.g. fails WP:V, N, BIO, GNG, etc.)? "Sorry, you do not have enough edits/time at Wikipedia. Speedy keep this article because the editor nominator is new."? Anyone with an account should be able to XfD. If you wanted to restrict it to "more experienced" editors, then perhaps only autoconfirmed users (10 edits and/or 4 days) could XfD. A month just seems too long and seems POINTy. Jguy TalkDone 13:47, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
  • Yeah, don't really see this being a significant enough problem that we need a specific rule against it. If the AFDs are good, they get discussed and deleted (or not) just like any other nomination. If the AFDs are hopelessly unlikely to pass they can be removed as disruption or simply WP:SNOW closed. If we had scores of IPs starting pointless AFDs to the point that is was disruptive to have to clean them up, I'd agree, but we don't, and that's never been a significant problem in my memory. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 14:22, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
The 10 edits or 4 days could be a suitable alternative for a month waiting period.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 17:58, 3 July 2013 (UTC)


IP editors -- no Wikipedia account -- are generally new, lack a proven track record, often do not understand Wikipedia's guidelines and procedures, lack experience. While it is good to allow them to edit articles, giving them the power to AfD an article seems unwise. AfDs eat up considerable community time and attention. They often result in much battling. Being able to AfD an article is a real power. It can be abused. I propose that only established users (account; track record of perhaps one month of edits) be able to AfD an article. I had thought IP editors can not AfD an article, but I found that Urban coyote was just AfDed a few days ago by an IP. The IP did not even sign their name on the talk page. The problem is compounded when IPs can not create the deletion discussion page.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 12:54, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

WP:AGF covers a lot of ground here. If the IP provides a rationale, as this one did, then we generally complete the AFD steps on their behalf, as a pro forma gesture of good faith. If the nomination is obviously flawed ("This article on a tv show should be deleted because it was a stupid show" or "This article should be deleted because the main editor is an asshole", etc), then I'll remove the AFD tag and advise the user. But I would do the same with an incomplete nomination from a registered editor (and we get those too). Put another way - what would change if this inexperienced editor went and created a login and THEN nominated the page? How would that be different, if they had a valid rationale for deletion? UltraExactZZ Said ~ Did 13:03, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
As long as Wikipedia permits anonymous editing by IPs, I think that preventing an IP from nominating an article for deletion would be inconsistent with other permissions. And while it is true that many IPs lack experience, others may have been editing for years, and undeserving of restrictions. I would suggest that if restrictions regarding AfDs are to be proposed, it needs to be done in the context of a broader debate on the merits of IP editing. AndyTheGrump (talk) 13:28, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
Generally I agree that discussion about IPs being able to make AfD nominations should be in the context of a broader debate on IP editing. Regarding the question by Ultraexactzz, I am thinking that not merely creation of a login account gives a person the power to nominate; rather, there should be some period of waiting, perhaps a month, when the community can get a sense of how responsible the IP is, before the power is granted. My general concern is that there is an imbalance here: it takes only perhaps a minute to nominate an article for deletion, but it can result in a week's worth of bickering, back and forth, actions by third parties such as administrators or reviewers. In short, one inexperienced user can cause a huge amount of fuss for experienced users. It could lead to bigtime abuse. The principle that editing privileges become greater as a user contributes more, and develops a track record, is well established at Wikipedia. Users who learn the guidelines, edit responsibly, and who do so over a period of time, get greater privileges such as rollback rights, possibly become administrators. So I think it is thoroughly consistent with Wikipedia policy to withhold power-privileges (I see AfD nominations as one of these) until users demonstrate a commitment to Wikipedia and some understanding of its guidelines and procedures. An IP, dissatisfied with an article, can tag it with notability, original research, or other problems, and suggest on a talk page that the article should be deleted; but letting an IP nominate an article seems like giving too much power to a neophyte. True, some IPs have edited for a long time, but then why can they simply not take the logical step of getting a free account, and edited under that?--Tomwsulcer (talk) 17:45, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
  • My suggestion: If an IP or new user creates an AfD, and the AfD receives no "delete" !votes from established users, then any admin can speedily close the AfD. Of course, there is a lot of discretion in determining 1) who is a new user, 2) who is an established user, and 3) even if the first two conditions are met, whether the AfD should be speedily closed or if the nominator actually has a point; which I expect the reviewing admin to exercise. This allows us to deal with the case of IPs or new users creating actually legitimate nominations, by simply choosing to allow them. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 00:34, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
Interesting. I still think this leaves open the possibility for serious abuse, since the fuss over the deletion discussion takes up much time and thinking and checking by community members who probably have better stuff to attend to. In this case of Urban coyote, the gripe was not whether the article should have been deleted, but whether the content of it should be merged into the article Coyote. In my view, this is an instance of the community spending much time and attention on a non-subject, and the possibility exists that an IP or group could cause considerable fuss here at Wikipedia by proposing massive numbers of AfDs with borderline rationales.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 00:46, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
I'm far more bothered by the registered or even experienced editors who waste time at AFD on matters that should have been dealt with by normal editing or nominate an article in complete ignorance of a clearly applicable policy or guideline. I see plenty of those all the time. I see very few IP-originated AFDs, and few within those that are plainly disruptive. I find it unlikely that IPs slapping AFD notices on articles will ever be a prime method of vandalism and disruption compared to other kinds of disruptive editing, nor do I think we are so unable to deal with it if it did become an issue that we need a prophylactic rule, rather than just reverting the AFD notices and not completing the nominations that the IP can't complete anyway because they can't create the AFD discussion page. postdlf (talk) 01:07, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict)*Concurring with postdlf, I think this is a solution looking for a problem. I frequently come across established editors disrupting the AfD process, especially by making mass nominations that have no other purpose other than to pursue a deletionist agenda - especially when they are well aware that the outcome will be 'keep' or at least 'redirect'. If they want to change deletion or notability guidelines, there are other venues. There are also trolls and socks who disrupt the process. I'm not quite sure where the stats are, but I seem to recall that IP users account for a significant number of constructive edits, and many of them are highly knowledgeable. It's their prerogative not to enjoy the advantages of a registered account. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 01:37, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

I am persuaded by Postdlf and Kudpung and others that a rule banning IPs from making AfD or XfD nominations is not needed. I have had only tangential experience with deletion reviews and did not see the broader picture. Thank you for your thinking.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 08:41, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Where Is Featured Article Review described?

I hope that this is not considered a stupid question. Where is the policy for the review of articles to be Featured Articles described in detail? I can see various articles on Featured Articles, but none of them describes the procedure itself (the peer review, et cetera). There is a minor problem, which is that the featured article today (Thursday, 4 July 2013), apparently got into Featured Article status without a decision on what regional version of English would be used. In this case, Battle of Quebec (1775), the answer should have been Canadian English, and a template should have been applied to the article talk page to specify Canadian English. Since this wasn't reviewed, a Canadian or British editor correctly corrected the spelling of defense to defence, and an American editor made a good-faith correction. If the review procedures don't address deciding the version of English, they should do so. Where exactly is the procedure for peer review of articles proposed for Featured Article status described? Robert McClenon (talk) 01:32, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Featured article criteria and Wikipedia:Peer review. That's the best I can offer. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 01:42, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
Thank you. I've posted to the peer review talk page to offer the opinion that a necessary step of peer review is identifying the variety of regional English. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:24, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Copyrights

See Template talk:PD-signature and Template talk:PD-ineligible, where we are discussing whether the threshold of originality licensing templates should either match {{PD-signature}} in requiring an check of the country of origin to see if it complies to the PD standards of that country or not, or match {{PD-ineligible}} in not caring if the country of origin's rules of the threshold of originality (or special copyright protections) is met or not, only using the US standard, and whether the template should be so named to indicate that only the US standard has been checked. -- 76.65.128.222 (talk) 03:44, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

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