Talk:Q477155

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Autodescription — Senat of the Free and Hanseatic City of Hamburg (Q477155)

description: regional government of the free city and state of Hamburg, Germany
Useful links:
See also

WikiProject Germany

Organization as a class

[edit]

@Oravrattas: can you please stop this? @Epìdosis, Infrastruktur: what can be done? CV213 (talk) 00:04, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I tend to think that instance of (P31)state government in Germany (Q314729) is more precise than subclass of (P279)state government in Germany (Q314729) for this item: it seems to be a single instance of the concept. --Epìdosis 08:44, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
+1. --Kolja21 (talk) 19:43, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@CV213, Epìdosis: No, this is the class. The instances are Second Senate Tschentscher (Q95995340), Senate Tschentscher (Q51077569), Senate Scholz II (Q19802169) etc. Please stop setting it back to being an instance. Oravrattas (talk) 08:58, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Where is you evidence? VIAF, ISNI and the VIAF sources disagree. The other items you mention are just other organizations or group of humans that act on behalf of the Senate of Hamburg. Just because the members of musical group change, the musical group isn't a class. CV213 (talk) 15:37, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Kolja21: as you are from Germany, can you have a look at that one? Normally items that are VIAF (Corporate) = ISNI (Organization) are P31 of a subclass of organization (Q43229) in Wikidata.

Oravrattas created an abnormal situation for exactly five ISNI-Organizations, all of them from Germany:

  1. Senat of the Free and Hanseatic City of Hamburg (Q477155): 0000000122428313
  2. Senate of Berlin (Q540130): 0000000112818262
  3. Government of Saxony-Anhalt (Q1450377): 0000000090422901
  4. Government of Schleswig-Holstein (Q1687183): 0000000098562634
  5. Government of North Rhine-Westphalia (Q1761666): 000000010946482X

@Epìdosis: Only few other ISNI-items have no P31, namely anonymous (Q4233718): 0000000423864522 and five humans created by bots from a Czech database, which sometimes is the source of problematic inserts. CV213 (talk) 15:32, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@CV213: this is how every other jurisdiction in the world is modelled in Wikidata. If you want to change that, please start a discussion at Wikidata:WikiProject every politician or a suitable equivalent. Or is there something sufficiently different about these cases that mean that Senate Tschentscher (Q51077569) instance of (P31) Senat of the Free and Hanseatic City of Hamburg (Q477155) is less true here? (NB: Please ping me on replies, as I do not get notified otherwise.) Oravrattas (talk) 08:26, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Please also note that I did not "create" this situation. The P31 on Senate Tschentscher (Q51077569) was created in March 2018 by @M2k~dewiki:, and has been unchanged since. In such cases the target of the instance of (P31) should itself be a class (as per the constraint warning currently display on that item noting that Senat of the Free and Hanseatic City of Hamburg (Q477155) should have a subclass of (P279) statement) Oravrattas (talk) 08:32, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I did not "create" this situation - the most recent creations of the desribed situation causing at least one constraint violation each:
  1. HH 2024-02-24 07:13 https://www.wikidata.org/w/index.php?title=Q477155&diff=2085564835&oldid=2082259095 by Oravrattas
  2. BE 2024-01-13 10:23 https://www.wikidata.org/w/index.php?title=Q540130&diff=2052647626&oldid=2040642203 by Oravrattas
  3. ST 2024-02-24 07:11 https://www.wikidata.org/w/index.php?title=Q1450377&diff=2085563667&oldid=2084948207 by Oravrattas
  4. SH 2024-01-05 08:37 https://www.wikidata.org/w/index.php?title=Q1687183&diff=2045935264&oldid=2044660731 by Oravrattas
  5. NW 2024-02-19 07:19 https://www.wikidata.org/w/index.php?title=Q1761666&diff=2081257324&oldid=2080613173 by Oravrattas
CV213 (talk) 14:49, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
this is how every other jurisdiction in the world is modelled in Wikidata - counter example to prove the claim to be wrong: Government of the United Kingdom (Q6063). CV213 (talk) 14:50, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@CV213: As I asked before, please ping me on responses - it is very rude to continue to not do so. Can you please point to where the constraint violations you're referring to are visible, so I can try to understand this better? After your reversions of my changes, presumably to your preferred versions, there are now constraint violations on the instance of (P31) statements on all the items that are instances of Senat of the Free and Hanseatic City of Hamburg (Q477155), Senate of Berlin (Q540130), Government of Schleswig-Holstein (Q1687183), Government of Saxony-Anhalt (Q1450377), or Government of North Rhine-Westphalia (Q1761666) - such as Third Haseloff cabinet (Q107982879), Wegner senate (Q117392970), Second Wüst cabinet (Q112675933) etc etc etc. Do you have a proposal on how to resolve those?
In terms of the UK example, I suspect it might point us in a workable direction, in that there are twp separate items for the instance and the class: Government of the United Kingdom (Q6063) and Cabinet of the United Kingdom (Q112014). Perhaps we need a similar split here? Oravrattas (talk) 15:41, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Oravrattas: where did you asked that before? Cannot remember. CV213 (talk) 21:47, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I now see it "(NB: Please ping me on replies, as I do not get notified otherwise.)". Sorry, didn't read that part before. CV213 (talk) 01:00, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Oravrattas: yes, they should probably be instances of cabinet. From a human-world: a human gets a job as US president, so he has role=US-president for some time. The UK cabinet C1 has the role UK government for time T1. Maybe one could use subjectHasRole. Or via instanceOf. Since the cabinets only have that role and only exists for that time - different from humans, that can have different roles over their existence. So, the human-world-example doesn't fit well here. CV213 (talk) 21:53, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@CV213: I'm having a lot of difficulty in understanding this argument. There's a fairly basic modelling rule that if X is an instance of Y, then Y should be a subclass of Z, rather than an instance of Z. We have lots of instances of Senat of the Free and Hanseatic City of Hamburg (Q477155) so unless and until those are changed to something else, then Senat of the Free and Hanseatic City of Hamburg (Q477155) should itself use subclass of (P279) rather than instance of (P31). Oravrattas (talk) 01:22, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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