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Correct syntax for imagery

Hi All

I am having difficulty with getting one of my images onto a WikiSpecies page.

http://species.wikimedia.org/wiki/Macrozamia_secunda

Feel free to edit it to make it appear properly please!

Cheers, Greg

Hi Greg, My first question is where is the image being hosted at this point? I have searched for that file name on species and commons without success, and the file needs to be, preferably on commons before it can used on Wspecies pages. Cheers --Kevmin 12:22, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

Make that: It must be on Commons to be used here. Local uploads are turned off. Rocket000 20:04, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

Hi, I think this picture must be on public domain, because it is in an Australian government's website. Then you can upload it on commons and use it here.--Professional Assassin 19:54, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

Unfortunately, they restrict usage which doesn't mix well with a completely free site such as this. IMHO, all work the public pays for should be public domain, but apparently that's a US thing only (most other governments copyright their work). Rocket000 20:04, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

hmmm they spend the public money for private usage then. That's the way their "Her majesty" wants. lol --Professional Assassin 21:32, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

Is it time to consider reopening local upload system to accommodate non-free species image until free images are found? OhanaUnited^{Talk page} 23:30, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

I think local uploads could be a good idea, given the problems we have been having at the Commons. Stho002 23:36, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

If we do, we should restrict local uploads to non-free images only. Everything else goes to Commons. We could have a "fair use" policy like en.wp. Non-free images of endangered, rare, extinct, etc. animals would be allowed if no free version exists. This helps keep the "free" part of this site in focus. (Let's just not adopt their ridiculously tedious licensing/fair use rationale system, though. ;) Rocket000 01:30, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

I totally agree with the last part. Let's just not adopt their ridiculously tedious licensing/fair use rationale system, though. :-) --Professional Assassin 02:05, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

Heh, same here. No rouge bots programmed to bug people to provide a fair use rationale that meets the standard template, just slap the non-free template and move on. And no Pokemon pictures please! OhanaUnited^{Talk page} 04:49, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

The image I want to attach is loaded into Commons at this location. As to the availability of imagery on the Government sites, frankly I think it depends on the webmaster more than anyone else. I agree, all photos taken with public money funding should be PD, but many of the photos I take when at work I take on my camera, and have been advised by legal opinion that they remain mine, unless I take them on a camera supplied by work. Gets back to the IP / ownership issue more than anything else. Cheers User:Orkology 04:36, 8 January 2010 (UTC).

Taxonomic incompatibility - Gap or worse

The class Myxini is listed as in phylum Chordata, but you cant get back from there to Myxini. I dont have the references needed to sort this out. I am working from Smith's Sea fishes 2003. which uses SC:Agnatha > C:Pteraspidomorphi > O:Myxiniformes, but this is incompatible with WoRMS which uses SC:Agnatha > C:Myxini > O:Myxiniformes. Cheers, Peter (Southwood) ^(talk): 08:08, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

Corrected: Myxini is in Craniata following Nelson, 2006. Ark (talk page) 10:11, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

Presumably that is cladus: Chordata Craniata in phylum Chordata, not classis: Craniata in phylum: Brachiopoda. I have made the changes. Seems to work, but someone should check as I am a little uncertain of some of the syntax. Cheers, Peter (Southwood) ^(talk): 12:27, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Short form binomial names

I was wondering why H. spaiens etc don't exist as redirects (or disambiguation pages for many of them) or something. Shouldn't they?

76.66.197.17 08:57, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Absolutely not! Stho002 21:40, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

In case you didn't notice, that's a typo, I meant H. sapiens 76.66.197.17 08:32, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

E. coli

S. aureus

H. erectus

D. melanogaster

C. elegans

etc...

76.66.197.17 08:35, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

In case you did notice it was a typo, and knew what I meant, why shouldn't they exist? 76.66.197.17 08:35, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

The typo was irrelevant. They shouldn't exist because it would be a huge amount of work and a complete waste of time. For example, if someone doesn't already know what genus is relevant for C. elegans, then getting a huge list of options on a disambiguation page isn't going to help. If they do know the genus, then they should search for it using the full name. In summary, "no way Jose"! Stho002 19:36, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Although it would be a lot of work, it would be a really useful starting point for people like me who'd love to help but don't have much experience.

Also, a disambiguation page will help those unfamiliar with genus names if it also provides a common name. People who don't know the full binomial might be more likely to be searching under a common or folk name anyways.

Standard changes in the name section?

Botanists tend to like full citation of names, with the reference of the original publication, rather than taxon + author + year.... me included. I propose that the name section of an article should look something like this: [[1]]. 1. "Name", with full citation of the name (rather than split between the name and reference section).

2. Synonyms with full citation. They could be written in chronical or alphabetical order. I use alphabetical but others use chronical as I find it easier to view, but chronical might be better from a scientific point of view...?

3. "References" is to me where I got the information from. I don't belive we all go back to the original publication of each name... so I list which sources I have viewed.

Comments please... Epibase 23:05, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Comments:

1. Don't like it - the publication details should go in the references section, where they can be cited IN FULL, with DOIs, etc. Keep the Name section as simple as possible
2. Yeah, I can't decide on alphabetical or chronological either! Probably doesn't matter too much. Only alphabetical is well-ordered - there may be several names with equal priority, and while determinations of priority may change, alphabetical never changes ...
3. My approach now to References section is to separate "cited sources" from "additional references", and mark things as "not seen" when this is so. The original publication reference will be in "cited sources", and may be "not seen", and if old and obscure may be a less useful reference than some of the later "additional references" (which may be very useful modern revisions) ... Stho002 23:18, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Thank you, good points... but the synonymous names should be with references attached to them? Would be very complicated tranfering all to References. I clean up the name area but keep references attached to synonyms. I'll stick with alphabetic until otherwise decided. Later on, it would be a good thing to reverse the help article. Epibase 12:22, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

• >but the synonymous names should be with references attached to them?

this is unclear, and doesn't sound like what I meant. I mean that the synonyms should be in the Name section, but the original references for them (and for the valid name) should be in the References. In other words, just don't put references in the Name section... Stho002 19:39, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

That is would, in my view, be a very confusing reference list. Why not stick with the traditional way of listing taxa as most databases do? Epibase 21:13, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

I prefer to keep the References in full at the bottom and the Name simple, like Stho002. The Names and Synonyms should easily relate to a Ref below. Some Refs are very long and would over-complicate the Names section, so adding a short version would just be duplication. I think synonyms should be in date order, as often this best explains a series of name/genus changes and you can see the development of taxonomic thinking over time. For example, a species first descriped in Papilio might later be allocated to Polyommatus, once that idea had developed, and then later to Hypolycaena as further sophistication comes in generic classification. This progression is far more logical in date order than in alphabetic order. Regards. Accassidy 17:01, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

An IDEA: Using Wikispecies to Identify Food Plants by Countries in Which They are Adapted to Grow

I am currently working on a project being run through Rotary International called Learn/Grow. (See www.learngrow.org) The project is meant to help people identify edible plants (both native plants that grow wild and cultivated crops) that are adapted to grow in the areas in which they live. The idea is that if people consciously cultivated food plants that were adapted to grow in the ecosystems they inhabited they'd spend less time, effort and money to produce food for themselves, their families and their communities. Having a list of all the local plants that could be used as possible food sources is an excellent resource for those concerned about food security in a particular area.

The database which is the current centerpiece for the project is years from completion. It also does not contain as much rich information as does Wikispecies. I was wondering if there was a way we could create a specific global interface in Wikispecies just for information about food plants? This is a completely not-for-profit philanthropic action and it has been established that there is a clear need for this type of information to be both organized and accessible to people in developing countries with food security issues.

Learn/Grow has been very popular in Papua New Guinea, and we now have documents specific to Solomon Islands. I am in the process of working on food plant documents for Haiti. Wikispecies offers the unique aspect of having already created a successful forum for both interdisciplinary and international collaboration. Botanical or agricultural collaborators - even those working in developing countries - would have instant and full access to more data than than the present database could provide them even if it was completed, and if they were so inclined, could easily upload valuable information as contributors.

If we could create an interface which would link food plants listed in Wikispecies according to specific countries and their nutritional values it would be a tremendous resource for both this project and anyone else interested in food plants or in improving food security. Right now, I find I can look up individual plants but cannot easily pull up lists of food plants for a country.

What would need to be done to make this a reality - or is there already a way to access the information without doing this? If you have any suggestions or comments, feel free to e-mail me directly at the e-mail address listed below.

Mary Wharton; Burke Rotary Club; District 7610; Virginia; [email protected]

replied by email ... Stho002 19:52, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Put your answer in here too. We want to know it... :) --Professional Assassin 01:22, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

I just advised her that she could if she wanted to create lists of species in her user space, like this:
User:Whar10/Food plants of Haiti
and link the species in the list to the main Wikispecies pages. Stho002 01:34, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

hmmmm.... right. --Professional Assassin 23:17, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Template confusion

The template Template:sgsp was manipulated by User:Arachn0 at 18 Dec. 2009, and this causes many errors in a lot of pages.

Originally this template was meant to be used for species which have subgenus, in the form of Genus (Subgenus) species. But User:Arachn0 changed it so it addresses now the form Genus species. This makes a lot of links unusable.

Currently Template:sbgsp can be used instead of Template:sgsp, but I think the change User:Arachn0 has done isn't proper, and it made a lot of confusion. It should be restored back to its original usage.

Mariusm 12:32, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

I support not having subgenus in species page names, which was possibly what User:Arachn0 was trying to achieve(?), but it needs to be made consistent Stho002 19:48, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

Me too. It shouldn't have been changed just like that because it broke a lot of links but I've been creating redirects to fix the links because they should exist anyway. The traditional form of Genus species is what most people would expect the pages to be called (the name section can use the subgenus). Rocket000 22:31, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

If we don't need subgenera in the species why do the authors this in their books and bulletins? (See ZooKeys 32: 1-82 (2010). We started species.wikipedia after original information. So with subgenera in the species like template sgsp. If people change every time the templates after their minds they create chaos. Everybody have add there contributions after original templates. PeterR 12:47, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

I agree we should standardize to Genus species but not in this brutal way!! This change broke the links to perhaps hundreds of pages!!! What are we going to do about this??? No one has the time to search for them, and repair them! I suggest as a first thing to restore the template to its original code, and then we'll see what to do next. A template like sgsp shouldn't be touched like this because it affects a lot of pages ... and it must be urgently be protected. Mariusm 05:24, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Well, I'm creating redirects to fix these. There's not that many left. I find them by checking what pages use the template. Here's what's left: User:Rocket000/sg (the red links). Rocket000 12:58, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Rocket, your search isn't adequate. Look please at the orphaned page list Special:LonelyPages. There are listed about 2200 pages affected by this template change! They themselves don't carry the sgsp template, but are linked by this template in the subgenus pages.

Before making such a drastic change, the minimal thing to do is discuss it and reach an agreement, and see how to reasonably and carefully implement it. The way it was done is certainly un-productive confusing and harming.

Rocket, are you prepared to fix all those 2200 pages? What about changing the help text to reflect the new policy? What about voting on such cardinal issues? Who can make such a decision? Mariusm 05:41, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

I realized my search wasn't adequate after posting.. but it's not all of those pages. Yes, I could be prepared to fix them all. I almost finished writing a bot to do it, but I guess it's not needed now. Rocket000 10:04, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Turned template back. But the problems remains. When You making new page from red link caused by template:sgsp, the title of the page will be Genus (Subgenus) species. 99% of users are not make the redirect from Genus species title. However the page Genus species may be existed before. What can we do? --Arachn0 09:02, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

That was I problem I kept running into. There was many times duplicate pages on the same species. Rocket000 10:07, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, Arachn0. I made two new templates: Template:sgsps and Template:sgspslast to be used for species in the format Genus species. These will display on subgenus page as G. (S.) species and the format to use is {{sgsps|G|enus|S|ubgenus|species}}.

Lets use it, and leave alone the sgsp template for the time being.

By the way: When changing or updating templates of this importance, please include documentation as the nature of the change and the new usage (enclosed by <noinclude> and </noinclude>) Mariusm 05:30, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

It works! Super! Thanks!!! --Arachn0 14:31, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Vandalism by JarlaxleArtemis

Please delete the user page User:Tristan Miller 2 and block the user. That account was created by long-term vandal JarlaxleArtemis. —Psychonaut 13:16, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Main Page upgrade

I would like to propose an upgrade to the MAIN PAGE, which looks very outdated and dull (if not ugly). My suggestion is to change it to this. The the species-of-the-week article will be upgraded every fortnight or so. My intention is to make this change at February the 15th.

I urge everyone to express their ideas and suggestions (for example, there's another possibility which looks like this.) I think the main page is our "face", and should be treated with more care and consideration. Please feel free to comment or criticize.

Mariusm 05:54, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Is that supposed to be a mandatory design & code for all languages? If yes, I'm against and will post reasons later on (I don't want to spam with them now), if not, do whatever you want with en main page, since I have plans on redesign too, so I can use them on cs page then... ;-)
— Danny B. 18:48, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

Marius, I like the gallery idea of your first option, but there is a lot of white space at the top of the page - maybe a bit too much. The second option is better from this white space aspect, so if you could have the gallery of links in this one I think it would be much better. Regards Accassidy 16:49, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

I think you did a very fine job with the first one. In any case, a visual refresh will be nice. I suggest making a template for all the formatting so it would be easier to update the other languages as well (not that we necessarily have to). Rocket000 20:08, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the feedback. I'll see how to incorporate the mentioned ideas in the future revisions. Meanwhile, the Main Page (only the English version) has been changed to the proposed format. I hope it will make us look a little nicer... Mariusm 17:56, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

I am not convinced that it was the best idea to switch in this state. Especially Main Page should comply to web(design) standards and guidelines such as accesssibility, usability and correct semantics. This one does not. Besides, I don't know what screen resolution you use, but apparently some higher, very probably widescreen. Narrower resolutions have more or less serious issues. Abuse of (nested) tables for creating of frames causes another issues. That's from code point of view. The design point of view can be of course pronounced subjective, however usage of framed boxes is couple years obsolete design process (besides it causes unnecessary waste of space), massive waste of space, especially by header - the important content lies outside viewport, inconsistent design of content sections. Random inequal horizontal distances between images. Are those subject to periodical exchange? If not, they are inconsistent. No obvious key of their selection too. Honestly, I do not think this was currently the promotion. :-/
— Danny B. 00:41, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Hello Danny. I'm glad you're concerned with the look of WS. It means you care for the site. But to sit back and criticize just isn't enough for me. So please roll up your sleeves and show us your vision of how the Main Page should look like. Mariusm 05:20, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Mentioning of siting back and criticize isn't fair so much from you. :-/ You in your first post called for comments and criticism, so I did comment. Actually, if I wanted to criticize only, my post would look waaay so different... I just totally in neutral way mentioned the issues the current design and code have or cause. I don't think that pointing to imperfections and shortcomings is sitting back and criticize. We have a proverb saying "more eyes see more". So I just mentioned things which apparently have been missed. Furthermore I've added some hints or catch-up points from which one can start. I also asked directly or indirectly several questions, so answering them would be handy for the next development. Anyway, I can recode the current thing instantly, but that will solve only one third (the others are general conception and design) of it. And since I do not have so much time to recode everything all around, I'd prefer the discussion on issues described in my previous post first before coding. I've said couple objections and suggestions (aside of mentioned questions) so I think the ball is on your (and others) side now to put your/their five cents in. Then we can start to work on first mockups and drafts.
— Danny B. 18:29, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

More vandalism

The Animal Lover is back. Seems to have got round the block. Can an Admin redo the block please? Accassidy 18:40, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

We now have Animal Lover 3 posting rubbish!! Another block please, or perhaps something more fatal for him? Accassidy 19:14, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Undiscussed changes to Wiki markup tools

Somebody is modifying these without prior discussion of notification! Stho002 00:14, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

at least the REDIRECT should be reverted back to how it was, as it is worse now Stho002 00:18, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

This may be related to the recent changes that are being implemented in the mediawiki software used by all the projects. I have turned of my beta toolbar status on en:wiki due to the very buggy nature of the changes.--Kevmin 02:42, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Block

Can someone please block User:The Animal Lover 4... writing pervert messages and blanking pages Epibase 19:03, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Call for proposals for Wikimedia UK initiatives

Hi all. The Wikimedia UK board has been putting together a budget for the next year (You can see this, and help with its development, here) and we have some money left over. We are looking for proposals for projects/iniatives with budget requirements in the range of £100-£3000 (GBP). These projects can be either online or offline, but they should be primarily focused on the UK and they must further the objects of Wikimedia UK (broadly, to collate/develop/spread freely licensed material).

The deadline for proposals is the end of this month (i.e. 0:00 UTC on 1 March 2010). You can find more details of the requirements, and how to submit proposals, on our blog. Thanks. Mike Peel 23:07, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Block for Animal Lover 10

I have blocked The Animal Lover 10: The final account, even though he supposedly apologises for all the vandalism, because we would be foolish to trust him ... Stho002 05:24, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Problem with user

I seem to have a problem with this user named Stho002, he is getting on my nerves and I haven't done anything wrong, like he is telling me that i shouldn't welcome new users on this site, as I was trying to be nice, can an admin. do something about him? Lakevin 16:23, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

We're not Facebook. This is not the site for socialization. Your account has shown types of vandalism[2][3] and it has exhausted our attempt to assume good faith. Yes, there is a problem with user, but that user is yourself. OhanaUnited^{Talk page} 20:16, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

You know what, the problem is this site, I am actually... The Animal Lover, I made this account two months ago, and guess what... The Animal Lover is not only 1 person, it's more than one, that means if a user under the name of The Animal Lover gets block for a day, another person for example, a person i know, creates an Animal Lover account to continue to vandalize, that means if you block me on day, another person becomes the animal lover the same day under a different computer. I have created many accounts on this site. I AM THE ANIMAL LOVER!!!!, and don't fuck with me bitches!!!!!! Lakevin 21:35, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

Animal Lover socks

Admins please be vigilant looking out for potential socks of Animal Lover. The new user User:Random-5000 looks a bit suspicious, but they have yet to make an edit. Stho002 04:38, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

I have decided to block this user as a precaution - still no edits. Stho002 20:19, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

Looks like that's a valid move. This account has already been blocked on English Wikipedia. OhanaUnited^{Talk page} 20:22, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

Time for m:Steward requests/Checkuser? Rocket000 22:19, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

Animal Lover is probably using a proxy server with dynamic IPs Stho002 22:24, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

Usually, they can usually figure it out. If anyone, vandal or not, is using a open proxy, the proxy will be blocked. They aren't allow to edit Wikimedia sites. Rocket000 04:09, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Requested CU at meta:Steward requests/Checkuser#The Animal [email protected] OhanaUnited^{Talk page} 06:34, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Hey Im the REAL Animal Lover here, i just wanted to say that im not using proxy servers with dynamic IP's, the users are copy cats, people that are following my succes, they are doing what I usually be doing, thats vandalizing this site, and as I said before, they are people that are followers, The Animal Lover is not one person, I'm not the only Animal Lover, there are many,thats all i have to say. Making love to Animals 02:09, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Watch User:Champak256 as a possible sock. Stho002 03:19, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

I have to go for today, but please watch this new user User:Kiwigurl, in case it is another sock. Stho002 05:03, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

CheckUser result is out. All admins please act accordingly by block all confirmed cases and watch any accounts that are listed as "possible". OhanaUnited^{Talk page} 18:27, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

To all admins: IP range 198.36.23.0/24 has been pre-emptively blocked for 6 months as demonstrated to be the origin of TAL and its sockpuppets. It only affects anonymous users since we have already fished out and blocked all TAL accounts. The only users affected will be any genuine contributions by IP users from this range. However, so far no genuine contributions were made from this range. Furthermore, IP result reveals that the contribution comes from a high school, which belongs to Syracuse City Schools system in New York, USA.Click here and enter "198.36.23.0" in the textbox to see the IP result It's unlikely that a scholar will be contributing from this range in the next half a year. OhanaUnited^{Talk page} 07:27, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Discussion of interest

Hi all. There's currently a discussion at Commons—albeit not a very substantial one—that compares Wikispecies to other projects. Thought you might be interested. Regards, –Juliancolton | ^Talk 19:58, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

To all users on Wikispecies

Hello Wikispecies users, most of you may have known a certain user. That certain user name is The Animal Lover(TAL). Well here is the truth, I Am TAl. Yeah... that's the truth. For the past couple of months, I have been vadalizing this site, writing nasty stuff about animals and say bad stuff about the users. Most of the socks were created by me, while 2 of them, Sarcholio and AL11'sback, were created by a friend. The reason I am writing this is because one of the admin found where I lived, and find the ip adress that belong to my school. My real name is not Ben Curtis, or I'm not a college student from Canada. I'm actually just some high school student. So all I want to say is sorry for all the vandalism I caused, and I also wanted to say sorry to the users and admins who tried so hard to keep me off this site. I have learned my lesson. I have learned from my mistakes. I am really sorry. This is not a joke. Again... I'm sorry. I will not fool around this site anymore. I hope everybody forgives me... Thank you. BenCurtis45 21:28, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

The people who contribute regularly to this site do so because they are interested in the biology of our planet and in making a positive contribution to this community. Whether we are editors, Admins or whatever, we are just ordinary people like you but we want to do something constructive with our spare time as it gives long-term satisfaction. Being a vandal also gives satisfaction, but only in the short term and at the expense of others. Obviously you understand IT and have been clever enough to use it in a destructive way. Your apology is accepted by me; other will speak for themselves. However, I would like to urge you to study hard at school and learn more about the world so that some time in the future you will be able to be a welcomed and positive member of the community rather than just a nuisance. Then you will be proud to tell us all your real name. Accassidy 12:44, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

New namespace

What do you guys think about creating a new namespace called Authority: and moving all the author pages to this? Of course, we can leave the redirects so we wouldn't have to change the current links in use nor would we have to type the full name out in the future if we don't want to. This way we can separate author pages from taxon pages. The main reason for doing this would be so we get an accurate count on all the taxon pages we have. It won't really require any work after moving the pages. Rocket000 02:41, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

against - there is little point, and it could disrupt things. Knowing how many taxon pages (at every level) there are isn't important. More useful would be knowing how many species pages there are ... Stho002 03:00, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

We can do that two ways. 1) Create a template, something like {{Species}}, which would be used in the taxonavigation in place of the hard-coded "Species", this would also add a category Category:Species (or something). 2) I can send out my bot to add this category from a list. To create that list, first I would grab a database dump, scan it for every title with a single space in it, excluding any pages that don't include the text "== ?Taxonavigation ?==" in order to remove any author names (this wouldn't be an issue if they had their own namespace). I would also remove redirects. If we go with #1, we can expand this for every rank. A lot of work (mostly bot work), but it would really be interesting to know what we have at each level. Furthermore, once all names are replaced by templates, we could auto-translate it into whatever the user's interface is... ok, I'm getting carried away, but the species category is a good idea. Also, some species are in the format Genus (Subgenus) species which I can automatically generate a list for as well. I'd be willing to this if others want it. Rocket000 03:36, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

There's another way, if you don't want to use categories (which can be hidden, btw), we can simply add a empty template to each page. It wouldn't make any visual difference on the page but we then a have a count on Special:MostLinkedTemplates. Rocket000 03:42, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

Please don't proceed with anything until we have all had time to consider this ... Stho002 03:40, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

Of course not. Rocket000 03:42, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

Yup, what Steven said. Got my hands full of things. OhanaUnited^{Talk page} 07:11, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

I wasn't asking for help or anything... Rocket000 09:33, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

Tribes under Dendryphantinae

All of the tribes under Dendryphantinae should be deleted. Please see the discussion at en:User_talk:Sarefo#Tribes under Dendryphantinae. These taxons haven't been actively used since the 1950s and are hopelessly outdated. All modern literature on jumping spiders uses a system of unranked clades between subfamily and genus. Unfortunately, I can't delete them myself as I don't have admin rights here. Sorry if this is the wrong place to post this. I couldn't find another appropriate forum. Thanks. Kaldari 16:45, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

They should NOT be deleted! The genera should all be listed under the subfamily, and the tribes listed as synonyms of the subfamily, and the tribe pages redirected to the subfamily page. This will take time, though any editor can do it. I don't see it as a priority issue ... Stho002 03:22, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

A proposal for a new page layout.

Our page layout is ugly and uninspiring--everyone can see that: a lot of horizontal rank names, and a lot of blank space. I thought of a new layout style where the top 5 or 6 ranks will be displayed horizontally instead of vertically. (look here for a demonstration page I made).

This requires only a minimal amount of work: just a very limited number of templates should be modified because all lower ranks are dependent on only those few top-rank templates.

Why not improve ourselves a little? Well... I would like to know what you think of this proposal. Mariusm 07:57, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

Go for it... Accassidy 17:00, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

I seem to recall suggesting horizontal taxonavigation here before, but OhanaUnited objected ... Stho002 22:22, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

I'm not a big fan of complicated templates. Plus it increases the learning curve for anyone who wishes to start contributing. OhanaUnited^{Talk page} 03:39, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

New contributors won't need to handle these templates at all. On the contrary: I suggest even protecting them, because they affect so many pages. I'm speaking only of the 5 or 6 top ranks ending perhaps at Subregnum level. Ohana, when did you handle those templates lately? I may say - never. On the other hand, new users are deterred and discouraged from the dull and uninviting aspect of our pages.

All the lower level templates--Superfamilia, familia, genus etc. will remain as they are now, so where is the learning curve you speak about, Ohana? Changes aren't always bad, you know; and I'm not suggesting here a revolution, only a moderate improvement.

I suggest voting on this, so we may see the opinion balance: Mariusm

I don't handle those templates because I have stumbled too many times on it in Wikipedia so that I'm now wise enough not to touch it anymore. These templates are all too familiar to me when I edited sport team records a year ago. Are there any working models in other databases? What do you achieve if this proposal is implemented? And why choose 5 or 6? Is that an arbitrary number or is there a reasoning behind it? According to your proposal, the "ugly and uninspiring" navigation layout will remain to exist below the "good looking" horizontal layout so it looks like the point is moot. Why fix something that is not broken? I rarely see templates get vandalized but now if TAL is reading this discussion, we just stuffed beans into his nose and gave him a brilliant idea (plus ammunition) to cause the greatest havoc on the server. OhanaUnited^{Talk page} 08:28, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

• (a) Any number of lines we can cut on the vertical interminable list is a net gain for us and it improves the readability and usefulness of the site.
• (b) I don't propose to touch the low-rank templates because it will burden the users, and add a difficulty level to editing.
• (c) The vandals are clever enough to reason about the high-rank templates vulnerability. The simple solution: protect then. No one edits then anymore (maybe only in an exceptional and rare cases).
• (d) I think there's indeed something broken here which needs a fix: the usefulness and attraction and ease-of-use of the site. This I consider to be broken.
• (e) If I need to scroll-down every page I open here to get past the vertical list to the essence of the matter, then something is feeling really wrong. Mariusm 09:15, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

One simple reason (among many others) for why not doing that:
Taxonomical navigation is logical tree. Unordered list (with or without nested items) is one of the best representations for the tree. You are trying to cut that tree about 1 (or more via other proposals) meter above ground and represent the roots and stub in shiny glass box and have the rest of the tree standing aside without any base. So instead of working with one complete piece everytime, now you would have to handle two parts of which both are predisposed for often breakages. The box is too fragile and the tree can fall anytime since having no base nor roots. (In a technical terminology: it will be much more difficult to handle and work with the data from this point further.) Please, do not succumb to polished apples which are in fact rotten to the core. Do not break existing fully working functionality with something injudicious and not thought-out.
— Danny B. 23:54, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

Well, I'm not too bothered one way or the other, but I think you exaggerate wildly! The proposal is basically only to make the top part of a list that was vertical, horizontal! I really fail to see such dire consequences from something so simple!

Stho002 00:00, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

It's of course not about the orientation only. It's way so much about the code behind. You are splitting one list (which should stay tightly consistent) to two "sublists" and on top of it even making both of them represented differently. If it really was such simple change I wouldn't care. But this is going to break many things.
— Danny B. 00:11, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

Well, I don't know much about the underlying code. If you are correct, then I may need to change my vote. My uderstanding was that we just change a few templates for the higher taxa, but if there is more to it, then I may need to rethink. However, the readability of the pages really would be greatly improved by horizontal taxonavigation ... Stho002 00:47, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

SUPPORT

• Mariusm 05:34, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
• Stho002 06:56, 14 March 2010 (UTC) (support down to level of phylum)
• Ark (talk page) 19:04, 14 March 2010 (UTC) (and without "Main page" [there are links to main page in navigation section and in logo], and without ranks [most of them will be "Cladus"]; like in Stho002's proposal, e.g. Eukaryota > Unikonta > Opisthokonta > Animalia > Eumetazoa > etc.; provisionally to phylum level).
• Accassidy 19:30, 14 March 2010 (UTC) The clades in Insecta/Lepidoptera templates are interminable; see Tarucus for example. Anything that cuts to the chase with less scrolling is welcome. I'd be happy to see the horizontal layout down to Insecta.

I agree with Ark that simplicity is best, and we really don't need to display the ranks Stho002 20:04, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

OPPOSE

• OhanaUnited^{Talk page} 08:28, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
• Strongly oppose - it will hardly complicate accessibility, very decrease usability and therefore lower down so much (if not even disable in certain cases) re-usability of the data on the page. Please do not apply such kind of changes, which rapidly decrease the quality of the project. Thank you.
  — Danny B. 23:21, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

this doesn't make sense, and sounds way too dictatorial. Fact is, the opponents of this proposal have one thing in common - they don't understand taxonomy ... Stho002 23:28, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

Please mind your words before writing them. Arguments ad hominem are not appropriate to the wikietiquette. Also please stay on the topic. I may not be fully familiar with taxonomy (I do know enough of the basics of the system though), however, I am very familiar with usability and accessibility aspects of the web. And this change is – when speaking about real facts – going backwards in these aspects.
— Danny B. 00:03, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

it is not an ad hominem argument to point out that the opponents of this proposal don't understand taxonomy - on the contrary it is highly relevant! The single overriding complaint I have heard from actual taxonomists about Wikispecies pages is that the long (vertical) list of ranks detracts from the useful information on the pages ... Stho002 00:07, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

a) What exactly does detailed knowledge of taxonomy got to do with this? Please provide the description of why it is "highly relevant", particularly where, on which part of the representation of the data and its coding.
b) Random people - random displays. For somebody it's long, for somebody wide. You can display the page on widescreen display, as well as on mobile devices. It won't be the same for everybody. Also mind there are couple skins available too. (And not speaking about different user agents on different systems.)
c) There are many other, better and cleverer, ways how to solve this and make the majority of users satisfied without lowering down usability and accessibility and without breaking anything. I definitely prefer any of those ways.
— Danny B. 00:25, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

a) if you were experienced in taxonomy, you would appreciate just how CRAP the current layout is, by concealing the important info at the end of a long and useless vertical taxonavigation

b) I'm not sure you understand the issue - it doesn't matter if the proposed horizontal taxonavigation spills over into two or several lines, it is just about it not dominating the whole page and hiding the important stuff

c) Ideally, I would go for a taxonavigation show/hide option, with hide being the default, but I'm not sure how that could be implemented. Stho002 03:40, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

Would you be interested in demonstrating or explaining some of those ways? I think there's something we can improve on here I'm just not sure how to do it. Rocket000 01:26, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

• lycaon 23:40, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

perhaps I will change to oppose, just to watch lycaon change to support! Stho002 00:02, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

Some issues which arise from this debate:

• The current situation isn't perfect and can be improved.
• We can never have here a unanimous agreement on anything.
• To reassure everyone, we can proceed in small increments: Modify for a starter only 10 templates (more or less), which represent 2 ranks, and see what are the implications and reactions are. Let this be for a month, and then decide what to do next. To modify 10 templates is a 10-minute work, and there will be no problem reverting this once we decide it is a no-go. Mariusm 06:18, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose. Doing this for only a few ranks will make our pages look inconsistent. Doing it for all will make them look ugly. Ucucha 16:41, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

NEUTRAL

• I'm not sure yet. I'm willing to give it try though. Rocket000 12:57, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

COMMENTS

• One thing we can do is make the "Taxonavigation" heading part of the templates at the top. That way we wouldn't need to add it to every single page. As a bonus, we can auto-translate it into the user's interface language making 'Species more multilingual. The only negative side of this is that we would either have no headings or duplicate headings for a short time while my bot (and possible others since it's a really simple task) remove the hard-coded ones. It would be for less than a day. Rocket000 15:21, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
• The example doesn't work for screens smaller than 800x600 (think mobile devices). It goes off the screen. Rocket000 15:26, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

Cryptic species complex

Hello,
I've a small question concerning the problem of the cryptic species complex : is it possible to indicate, in Wikispecies, that different species from a genus belong to a complex of cryptic species ?
Even better, is it possible to indicate that some species are considered as sister-species or geminate-species ? Thanks for your help :-) Ndiver 14:20, 15 March 2010 (UTC)