• s1e1/2 “Caretaker”
  • s3e26 “Scorpion, pt I”
  • s6e1 “Equinox, pt II”
  • s7e4 “Repression”
  • Tollana1234567@lemmy.today
    15·
    2 days ago

    probably the caretakers array, they wouldve avoided all the other problems. if they had the foresight to make it self-destruct or planted explosives to destroy the array after they use it to return to the alpha quadrant. even Q wasnt aware of voyager being in the delta quadrant at the time.

        • Someonelol@lemmy.dbzer0.comEnglish
          6·
          2 days ago

          There’s an easy solution. Create a transporter clone and split that one back before he realizes what happened. Everyone wins (except the cloned Tuvix).

        • Autonomous@lemmy.mlEnglish
          6·
          2 days ago

          Better that than to allow her dear friend Tuvok to suffer like that. Trapped in an eternal hell of feelings and dislogic.

      • Digit@lemmy.wtfEnglish
        9·
        3 days ago

        Yes.

        Or, certainly the one that hurt the most.

        Watch Tuvix plead for his life, and tell me that wasn’t wrong.

        … And would have been great to have the rest of Voyager’s episodes continue with Tuvix.

        • Duamerthrax@lemmy.worldEnglish
          3·
          2 days ago

          It would be a way to deal with an actor who wanted off the show, but I doubt either actor would be happy about it.

        • Taco2112@lemmy.world
          6·
          3 days ago

          I didn’t say it wasn’t wrong. I just watched that episode last week and it’s definitely heartbreaking but it’s just a SciFi version of the trolley problem, either decision is potentially the wrong one.

          I think we need to clarify what is meant by “worst decision”. To me, the worst decision is the one that costs the most lives or one that prolongs their time in the Delta Quadrant, since that also potentially leads to more lives lost.

  • teft@piefed.socialEnglish
    20·
    3 days ago

    I think giving the Hirogen the ability to make sentient photonic lifeforms is probably her second worst decision. Especially since those photonics could feel pain. Imagine if she had handed them a replicator/cloning device instead. Not much difference if you think about it.

    • themoken@startrek.website
      11·
      3 days ago

      I actually just watched those episodes. Don’t think it’s her worst decision. The Hirogen had already taken Voyager and had everyone at their mercy, Janeway had to make a deal or die.

      However, I will also say I think Voyager kinda flubbed the whole holograms-are-real-people-too idea. Holograms are just visual representations of what the computer is doing with force fields. When the holograms feel pain, it’s simulated - they have no nervous system and they have not actually been harmed. The more sophisticated the AI the more realistic their reflection of “pain” but it’s not real. OR it is real, and everything you do with a holodeck character is unethical.

      • WhiteOakBayou@lemmy.world
        5·
        3 days ago

        It’s probably the latter though right? Unless you can glitch the holodeck creations to the point you are satisfied that they are not sentient I think you should assume they are. If not for the hypothetical artificial life then for your own soul. Torturing something indistinguishable from a person is the same sin on the torturer in my eyes.

        • themoken@startrek.website
          4·
          3 days ago

          Either interpretation could be correct, but it needs to be consistent.

          To me, the holograms aren’t people. People can’t be reset, copied, or restored from backup. Holograms have no body to damage and no nerves to register that damage. The computer is recognizing that a humanoid would be damaged by whatever action and making its avatar express that in a way intended to be understood by other humanoids. That’s all.

          This is different from say, Data, because even though he can be manipulated and is inhuman in some of the same ways he is independent from any other computers and, importantly, his processing of pain is a real condition. He can be harmed, and even though he may say “Ouch!” to mimic humans, the real pain is his physical response to that damage, the reality that he may be less capable than before, and the need he has for repair.

          I like the Doctor, I would treat him with respect, but if it was between him and a biological in a life or death situation, I’d choose the biological every time. I can always spin up another EMH mk. I from disk.

          • Zoot@reddthat.com
            3·
            2 days ago

            Wasnt the entire point of the doctor that he became a person because he program became more than just a program? Similar goes to the other holograms that end up becoming treated as sentient people. They aren’t simply programs/holograms that can be reproduced.

            • themoken@startrek.website
              2·
              2 days ago

              Yes, Voyager’s writers take this position, but I think it’s nonsense.

              Holograms are programs that run on a computer. They have no physical form, they are force fields and light being projected from a piece of hardware bolted to the wall to convince you they have form, but their true “self” is just data in a computer like any other program. Their experiences are database entries. They can be deleted, copied, transmitted, paused and restarted like any other program. They are incapable of doing anything that the computer they’re running on can’t do.

              Like the EMH miners that pass along Photons Be Free - total bullshit. Why simulate that much intelligence when you’ve already installed devices all over that are capable of scanning and mining ore without physical form or the capacity for misery? Just let the computer do the work.

              Or the Hirogen holograms. They’re simulating pain, and it’s fucked up the Hirogen want it that way, but does that make it unethical to hunt them? After all, when you hurt them, you’re just updating a data structure in a computer that calculated the trajectory of your phaser fire, determined it was a hit and decided to relay that information back to you as simulated damage and pain. It could just as easily make the holograms impervious to all damage.

              The Doctor can be special to the crew and they can want to keep him intact and running without pretending he’s more than a simulation - he’s designed to create rapport and they’ve bonded with him. But holograms in general? You might as well be concerned about being nice to a replicator or a navigation array, or an NPC in a videogame.

              • KairuByte@lemmy.dbzer0.com
                2·
                2 days ago

                Holograms are programs that run on a computer. They have no physical form, they are force fields and light being projected from a piece of hardware bolted to the wall to convince you they have form, but their true “self” is just data in a computer like any other program. Their experiences are database entries. They can be deleted, copied, transmitted, paused and restarted like any other program. They are incapable of doing anything that the computer they’re running on can’t do.

                Isn’t this true of humans in the world as well?

                They run on a meat computer, and are limited in their capabilities to what that meat computer and meat suit can do.

                Humans can be paused, deleted, and restarted. The many different transporter fuck ups kinda prove that. The only thing stopping it from being a norm is safeties, which have been circumvented before and will be again.

                Human memories are also manipulatable. They’ve proven to be deletable, injectable, editable.

                It really feels like your argument is “they are digital so can’t be alive.” Which seems very anti Trek.

                • themoken@startrek.website
                  1·
                  2 days ago

                  It’s less that digital things can’t be alive and more that to be alive you need to exist independent of technology that’s simulating your life for you. All biological organisms pass this test. Data passes this test. The Doctor and every other hologram does not.

                  If you want to call the human body and perception an equivalent, I’ll point out that when you cut yourself something has actually occurred to your physical body, it isn’t just your brain seeing a knife and deciding it hurt you.

                  But hey, you are welcome to disagree at which point holodecks become extremely unethical. This is, after all, just philosophy.

  • Evil_Shrubbery@thelemmy.club
    113·
    3 days ago

    Not immediately killing Tuvix on sight even before hearing the explanation what happened (they could always go down there to get another one of them flowers if it was so important).

    I had to suffer through a whole Tuvix episode (every rewatch) & that’s on her.