User talk:Liedes
What makes you think that Finnish kohtalo should be a descendant of Κλωθώ? They sound distantly similar, but that does not make them related. --Hekaheka (talk) 18:33, 17 December 2017 (UTC)
- The shared semantics (per kohtalotar) and auditive similarity. Just didn't dare to mark it as an ancestor either... Is there a practice for marking up obvious but unclear interlinkage? --Liedes (talk) 18:46, 17 December 2017 (UTC)
- Wiktionary is not a media for speculative linguistics. As I wrote above, mere auditive similarity is not a proof of anything. One should be able to show the process and intermediate steps of "Κλωθώ" becoming "kohtalo". In practice you should be able to quote a reliable source in which someone else has made this conclusion based on their research. You appear to be Finnish. If so, you will be able to read (for fun, my intention is not to mock you) the Finnish Wikipedia article about late Sigurd Wettenhovi-Aspa, who drew interesting conclusions of phonetic similitudes, see subtitle "Pseudokielitieteelliset teoriat". --Hekaheka (talk) 19:55, 17 December 2017 (UTC)
- More seriously, the discussion pages of individual entries are available for all sorts of discussion. Also, individual words can be discussed in the Tea room. The problem is that there are not many people in the English Wiktionary who would be capable of saying anything about the origin of Finnish words. Perhaps the corresponding group (Kahvihuone) in the Finnish Wiktionary would work better [1]. --Hekaheka (talk) 20:14, 17 December 2017 (UTC)
- As history of language and history in general are always more or less speculative, Wiktionary is unavoidably so, too. Other than that, I accept your point. --Liedes (talk) 20:24, 17 December 2017 (UTC)
- Yes, true. All "reconstructed" word forms are speculative in the sense that there's no way to know for sure. --Hekaheka (talk) 20:39, 17 December 2017 (UTC)
- As history of language and history in general are always more or less speculative, Wiktionary is unavoidably so, too. Other than that, I accept your point. --Liedes (talk) 20:24, 17 December 2017 (UTC)
- More seriously, the discussion pages of individual entries are available for all sorts of discussion. Also, individual words can be discussed in the Tea room. The problem is that there are not many people in the English Wiktionary who would be capable of saying anything about the origin of Finnish words. Perhaps the corresponding group (Kahvihuone) in the Finnish Wiktionary would work better [1]. --Hekaheka (talk) 20:14, 17 December 2017 (UTC)
- Wiktionary is not a media for speculative linguistics. As I wrote above, mere auditive similarity is not a proof of anything. One should be able to show the process and intermediate steps of "Κλωθώ" becoming "kohtalo". In practice you should be able to quote a reliable source in which someone else has made this conclusion based on their research. You appear to be Finnish. If so, you will be able to read (for fun, my intention is not to mock you) the Finnish Wikipedia article about late Sigurd Wettenhovi-Aspa, who drew interesting conclusions of phonetic similitudes, see subtitle "Pseudokielitieteelliset teoriat". --Hekaheka (talk) 19:55, 17 December 2017 (UTC)
Hi! Commenting this: Konsa miä suissuin suin lummee, suin lummee, päin vettee.
- I'm not convinced of the utility of adding heavily dialectal usage examples. This is, after all, the Finnish section of an English dictionary meant for English-speakers. Many users have only a limited knowledge of Finnish, and dialect is going to confuse them. I'm a Finn, and I had to read the line three times before I understood it. Your example might better fit the Finnish Wiktionary, IMHO. --Hekaheka (talk) 18:33, 19 December 2017 (UTC)
- Ja tajusin vasta, että tuota tekstiä ei taideta nykyisin laskea edes suomenkieliseksi... --Liedes (talk) 20:04, 19 December 2017 (UTC)
- To me it provided interesting insight into variation of the phrase, especially on the "suin" part. Can you help me how to formulate it in the Finnish wiki ... to not get removed? :P --Liedes (talk) 20:09, 19 December 2017 (UTC)
- Olen tehnyt kovin vähän suomi-wikiä. Sielläpä se näkyy jo olevan "suin päin" artikkelissa sinun lisäämänäsi. Nyt on varmaankin parasta odottaa, mitä tapahtuu. Formaatti ainakin näyttäisi olevan ok. Jos joku poistaa sen, niin kannattanee tiedustella häneltä syytä, ja mitä sillä voisi poistajan mielestä tehdä. Mahdollisesti se sopisi myös esimerkiksi "konsa" -sanan käytöstä. --Hekaheka (talk) 23:38, 20 December 2017 (UTC)
Mitä tarkoittaa "alaannu"? --Hekaheka (talk) 07:45, 29 December 2017 (UTC)
- Alkanut. Illat pimenevät ja minäkin olen ottanut kuusikymmentätuumaiseni taas katselun alle. Nurkassa kyhjöttävä pikseliläjä on kuitenkin suoltanut tänä syksynä niin paljon kyyneleitä, että minua on alaannu puistattamaan koko rakkines. Nopiaa on. luonto alaannu viheriöimähän.Tuomikin pukannu lehteä niin nopiaa notta. Akka vaan on alaannu pistää vastaan ettei pihaan saisi tuoda enää mitään. De laval footbath solution 500 aineella on ruiskupullosta ruiskuteltu lehemien sorkkahan etupuolelle kruununjuurehen ja siitä ylähäpäin n.10cm.nyt on alaannu usiampi märkimähän karvan rajasta sorkan etupuolelta.onko liemet menny väärähän paikkahan vai liemes vika vai liika tihiä käsittely? --Liedes (talk) 17:49, 29 December 2017 (UTC)
- Ovatkohan tälläiset murremuodot tarpeeksi hyvin attestoituja? Periaatteessahan näitä voisi lisätä yhden jokaista heikkoasteista taivutusmuotoa kohden (esim. jalka : jalaat, jalaassa, jalaasta, jalaalla…), mutta näitä ei ole taidettu juurikaan käyttää kirjakielessä. Suomi on olevinaan "well documented language", joten murremuodoistakin pitäisi pystyä esittämään kolme kirjallista tai pysyvää verkkolainausta toisistaan riippumattomista lähteistä. Yksittäisten taivutusmuotojen kanssa tämä voi tehdä tiukkaa.
- Periaatteessa olisi mahdollista ehdottaa, että murremuotoja käsitelläänkin Limited documentation language -periaatteeiden mukaan, mutta tähän pitäisi saada muulta käyttäjäkunnalta laajempi hyväksyntä.
- Tällä hetkellä meillä ei muuten ole vielä edes kunnollisia kategorioita suomen murremuodoille. CAT:Regional Finnish tunnistaa vasta stadin slangin, hämäläismurteet, ja hieman epämääräisen kategorian "Finland Finnish" (lähinnä viranomaistermeille). Luokassa CAT:Finnish dialectal terms on puolestaan paljonkin kamaa, mutta pelkkä määrite "dialectal" ei yleensä ole kovin hyödyllinen. (Muistaakseni "regional" ja "dialectal"-luokkien yhdistämisestä on joskus ollut keskustelua.) — Jatkokeskustelu kannattanee siirtää suomen kielen yleiskäytännefoorumille eli Wiktionary talk:About Finnish. --Tropylium (talk) 10:52, 17 January 2018 (UTC)
- Kannatan suuresti. On todella typerää kohdella suomen kieliä yhtenä blokkina kun muutaman sadan puhujan finnomurteille on omat lokeronsa. Yritin joskus etsiä että mistä voisin lisätä murrelokeroita, mutten kai onneksenne osannut. --Liedes (talk) 10:59, 17 January 2018 (UTC)
Some comments:
- Where do you get the sense "top of an oven" to the Estonian paas from? It's not mentioned in the Wiktionary entry, nor does the quite comprehensive Estonian web dictionary Eesti keele seletav sõnaraamat [2] recognize it. If it is an archaic or dialectal sense, it should be labeled as such.
- Nykysuomen sanakirja does not recognize the sense "large stone floor to a cookstove" for paasi. Same comment as above.
- Use {{etyl|xx|fi}} template with caution. It makes the Finnish word a derivative of the xx language. For cognates use {{cog|xx|xx-language term||English translation, if any}}. See the etymology section of paasi for usage examples.
- Keep up your work. I'm just trying to assure the quality of Wiktionary.
--Hekaheka (talk) 22:53, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
- Itkonen, Erkki, Kulonen, Ulla-Maija, editors (1992–2000), Suomen sanojen alkuperä [The origin of Finnish words][3] (in Finnish) (online version; note: also includes other etymological sources; this source is labeled "SSA 1992–2000"), Helsinki: Institute for the Languages of Finland/Finnish Literature Society, →ISBN p. 282 paasi : ... | vi paas (g. pae) 'liuskakivi, kalkkiliuske; uunin päällys', (murt.) paasik 'kiven päällä paistettu leipä' |
- (Same source) : '(suurehko) laakea (lieden pohjana käytetty) kivi; kallio(nlohkare) ...', rinn. paade, paader (Eurén 1860), paatere (Kal; murt. harv.) id., paasikas (paik. kaakk- ja savmurt.) 'kivien välissä paistettu lohkoperuna t. -nauris', paasikainen (paik. Häme PSavo), paasika(i)s(rieska) 'veteen leivottu nostamaton leipä', paatukka, paasukka, paatuska (paik. murt.) '(paadella kypsytetty) ohukainen'
- Right, I don't have good clue of the semantics of the templates. Just trying to copy what I see in other entries...
- Thanks.
- Sources in SSA for paasi are: Ganander 1787 NFL 2 303a (sm paatinen ~ vi paene), Ahlqvist 1856 WotGr 143 (sm ~ va vi), Kettunen 1938 LivW 309 (+ li), SKES 1958 450 (+ KA), Koivulehto 1986 CILT 38 288 (< germ).
- --Liedes (talk) 23:42, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
- If I may, you shouldn't use the
{{etyl}}
template at all; it's deprecated. Please use{{der}}
instead. Thanks! --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 10:37, 17 January 2018 (UTC)
- If I may, you shouldn't use the
hepo & co.
[edit]I invite you to discuss this bundle of words instead of just continuing edit-warring; I've started a thread at the WT:Etymology scriptorium, if you want to give more arguments than will fit into edit summaries. You seem awfully dead-set to treat hopo as a primary base for all sorts of things, even though there is just about no evidence for this (including not even attestations in regular use). --Tropylium (talk) 10:24, 17 January 2018 (UTC)
- No I genuinely thought the murresanakirja link was broken. I admit you were right. You have better grounds for now. I have a suspicion about hevonen, but my skills are not good enough to look into that. --Liedes (talk) 10:54, 17 January 2018 (UTC)
- I would prefer that you'd only enter things that you are sure of. I'd also challenge the wisdom of entering archaic dialectal forms in English Wiktionary. I'd think that the Finnish Wiktionary would be a more proper place for them. English Wiktionary should mainly contain entries that are at least remotely relevant to non-Finnish users. --Hekaheka (talk) 11:54, 19 January 2018 (UTC)
- Archaic terms might be relevant to Estonian users. --Liedes (talk) 12:08, 19 January 2018 (UTC)
- I would prefer that you'd only enter things that you are sure of. I'd also challenge the wisdom of entering archaic dialectal forms in English Wiktionary. I'd think that the Finnish Wiktionary would be a more proper place for them. English Wiktionary should mainly contain entries that are at least remotely relevant to non-Finnish users. --Hekaheka (talk) 11:54, 19 January 2018 (UTC)
Are you sure these are correct nominatives? None of your citations are in nominative singular. "Kiukuval", "kiukual" etc. might be just dialectal inflections of something else, like "kiuas". --Hekaheka (talk) 11:50, 19 January 2018 (UTC)
- Yes I am. There were also not unclear examples. The less clear inflections clarify the semantics. --Liedes (talk) 12:11, 19 January 2018 (UTC)
- Hmm.. I checked Suomen murteiden sanakirja [4] and it actually says that there some mentions from SE Finland. --Hekaheka (talk) 12:18, 19 January 2018 (UTC)
Löytyisiköhän toinenkin esimerkki tai muu evidenssi siitä, miten "temmellä" liittyy tulen sytytykseen. Nythän meillä on tämä:
- Tuok[oate] tult[a] tuoh[uksella] / Temmelkoate tervaksiss[a].
Tämähän voisi tarkoittaa myös ihan tavallista temmeltämistä tai touhuamista, koska siinä temmelletään tervaksissa eikä tervaksia.
Samaten temmelkalliota koskeva sitaatti voisi ihan hyvin viitata kallioon, jolla taistellaan tai on taisteltu:
- Kellot kirkko tapulin soittaa maan ja kaupungin: Ajan suuren tulen temmelkalliolta kipenet jo kirpoo tänne. Saartoon joutuu elämänne!
--Hekaheka (talk) 09:44, 27 January 2018 (UTC)
- Tulkitsin sen liittyvän tulusten käyttöön ja piikiven iskentään, niin kuin tuohusetkin. Täytyy vielä katsella esimerkkejä. --Liedes (talk) 09:59, 27 January 2018 (UTC)
- Kyllä taitaa olla niin, ettei tuleen liittyvää erityismerkitystä voi näillä perusteilla olettaa. Esimerkeissä sana voi tarkoittaa ihan vain jotain tuohuksen repimiseen tai siirtämiseen liittyvää.
- SKVR I3 1580. Vuokkin. Rautell n. 951. 92.
- Temmelkeä tervaksilla.
- ...
- Tuoppa tulta tuohuksella,
- SKVR II 485. Lentiera? Osonen n. 43 (s. 158). - 08.
- Tuogaa tulta tuohuksista,
- Temmelgääpäs tervaksista,
- SKVR II 487. Kipo. Karttunen n. 217. - 10/7 97.
- Tuogoa tuli tuohuksinen,
- Temmelgöö se tervaksinen,
- SKVR II 488. Suulaansaari. Bor. III, n. 171. - 4/10 77.
- Tuogoa#34 tuli tuohuksińe,
- temmelgöä se tervaksińe,#35
- SKVR I3 1580. Vuokkin. Rautell n. 951. 92.
- Valtoimenaan riehuvan tulen yhteydessä sanaa on käytetty, mikä sopii kyllä taistelukenttiinkin.
- Länsi-Uusimaa, 20.05.1924, nro 37, s. 2 https://digi.kansalliskirjasto.fi/sanomalehti/binding/1431828?page=2
- Huomattuaan jollakin taholla tulen ryöstäytyneen irti, ...
- Palovahti oli kyllä huomannut tulen temmellyksen saunan katolla,
- Länsi-Uusimaa, 20.05.1924, nro 37, s. 2 https://digi.kansalliskirjasto.fi/sanomalehti/binding/1431828?page=2
- Kiitos. --Liedes (talk) 10:30, 27 January 2018 (UTC)
- Kyllä taitaa olla niin, ettei tuleen liittyvää erityismerkitystä voi näillä perusteilla olettaa. Esimerkeissä sana voi tarkoittaa ihan vain jotain tuohuksen repimiseen tai siirtämiseen liittyvää.
Hi! I deleted, at least for the time being, this definition which you had added to "luo":
- (obsolete) a word with unknown meaning somehow referring to a place
Which usage are you looking for? --Hekaheka (talk) 07:19, 19 May 2018 (UTC)