Talk:as such

Sources for "as such" meaning "therefore"? I cannot find a single dictionary or style manual that confirms this definition or usage. (124.100.181.211 08:48, 23 November 2015 (UTC))

Pretty common: some of these search results use it this way: [1]. Equinox ◑ 20:30, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

RFV discussion: June–July 2019

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as such

Adjective sense:

1. As it should be, as described

   The budget was not allocated as such.

I don't understand what this is getting at, but we at least need to verify a sense that is adjectival. Mihia (talk) 23:15, 23 June 2019 (UTC)

cited, but I agree that the definition needs work. Kiwima (talk) 05:00, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

The first adverbial definition seems to fit, more or less. One of the usexes for it seem more appropriate for the adjectival use, and the usex for the adjective seems more appropriate as an illustration for the adverb. Andrew Sheedy (talk) 23:03, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

Presently the alleged adjective sense looks like this:

1. Per se, by itself, in itself, in and of itself.

I'm not a big fan of popular music, as such; I much prefer opera.

To me, none of the definitions seem adjectival, and neither does the use in the example sentence. There are also some quotations, none of which I recognise as obviously adjectival uses, though I must admit that I don't really understand what some of them mean. @DCDuring, I see you commented on this at the tearoom; what's your view on the present definition? Mihia (talk) 20:13, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

I have found this term difficult. It is entries like this that most benefit from the PoS header Prepositional phrase. It is telling to me that so many of the definitions are prepositional phrases. I parse as such as a prepositional phrase: as#Preposition ("in the capacity, character, condition, or role of") + such#Determiner (referring to something previously mentioned). In some of its uses it has grammaticized. Grammatically, it does seem to me to be often modifying or referring to nouns, though sometimes verbs, clauses, or sentences. Using the Prepositional phrase header eliminates duplication of definitions and also makes syntactic analysis, which can be difficult as well as controversial, less essential. DCDuring (talk) 22:24, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

Thanks, having a single "Prepositional phrase" header seems like an excellent suggestion to me. If no one objects, I will do that. Mihia (talk) 17:57, 26 June 2019 (UTC)

• I had a go at redoing the entry. This is another case like if only, where it is hard to know where to draw the line between SoP/literal and idiomatic. Clearly we don't want to include accidental or non-constituent juxtaposition of "as" and "such" such as "I took a taxi as such a lot of people were waiting for the bus", yet on the other hand I feel it is worth including the usage like "This is a valuable artefact and should be treated as such", e.g. to help English learners distinguish this sort of use from the others. Mihia (talk) 20:56, 28 June 2019 (UTC)

RFV-resolved Kiwima (talk) 20:21, 7 July 2019 (UTC)