Wiktionary:Tea room/2022/June

discussion rooms: Tea room • Etym. scr. • Info desk • Beer parlour • Grease pit ← May 2022 · June 2022 · July 2022 → · (current)

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platinum jubilee

I hate to be a party pooper, but is platinum jubilee (and coordinate terms like silver jubilee, ruby jubilee, etc., as well as entries like diamond anniversary and diamond wedding) not sum-of-parts? We do not have an appropriate adjective definition for platinum yet, but compare golden (“relating to a fiftieth anniversary”) and diamond (“of, relating to, or being a sixtieth anniversary; of, relating to, or being a seventy-fifth anniversary”). Thought I would raise the issue here to get some views before making any RFD nominations. (Pinging @LlywelynII who appears to have created many of these entries.) — Sgconlaw (talk) 22:28, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

Poop away! Seems to be a clear SOP to me. Overlordnat1 (talk) 11:31, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

Agree. SOP --Jonathan Webley (talk) 12:40, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

So long as we have the appropriate entries under the first word, they're all SOP. Theknightwho (talk) 21:28, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

The only question I have / thing I can see that might save them, is whether the longer phrases came first and pass the WT:JIFFY test. But I suspect if any phrase came first, it was "...anniversary", not "...jubilee", so yeah, these seem SOP. - -sche (discuss) 23:12, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

ḏrt

If the hand hieroglyph 𓂧 represents d, and the cobra 𓆓 represents ḏ, for example in the word "say" that is spelled 𓆓𓂧 (cobra + hand) and transliterated ḏd ... how come the word "hand", spelled using the hand glyph, is transliterated ḏrt and not drt? Was the word pronounced drt originally or in some dialects, only to shift to ḏrt? (If it was always ḏrt, why is it the glyph for d-as-opposed-to-ḏ; why not use a d-word to represent d?) - -sche (discuss) 22:05, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

The main spelling is phonetically d + t, but the alternative form is ḏr + r + t (the intermediate r is a phonetic complement). Also, 𓂧 on its own is apparently a logogram for ḏrt (which makes sense since it depicts a hand), so the reading could just be ḏrt + t.

Oh, I just noticed the footnote here, which says that the word used to actually be read dt, but it was revised based on Coptic ⲧⲱⲣⲉ (tōre). That looks like a more satisfying answer. 70.172.194.25 17:18, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

Yep, the hand glyph in the word for hand is being used a logogram for ḏrt rather than a phonogram for d (which is also why there’s no r glyph in the word, and why the most common way to write it ends with glyph Z1 (the vertical line), which is usually used to mark out logograms). (In regards to the footnote you mention, note that what Gardiner says about the word formerly being read dt is talking about an error made by modern Egyptologists, not the original Egyptian reading of the word.)

The reason why the hand was chosen to represent d is a matter of some debate; Gardiner (at the link you provided) gives one suggestion (‘from the old Semitic word *yad- (“hand”)’), but it’s not very satisfying. Other authors following the neuere Komparatistik school see Egyptian ꜥ as a reflex of earlier d and connect the hand to ꜥ (“arm”), making it a kind of doublet to 𓂝, but the neuere Komparatistik is far from universally accepted, and this answer isn’t very convincing either. Unfortunately, for a lot of the basic Egyptian phonograms we simply don’t know where their sound value comes from; compare the many equally unsatisfying hypotheses given at 𓅓. — Vorziblix (talk · contribs) 18:24, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

Thank you both. With 𓅓, the theories that "since it represents m, it probably came from a word for owl that started with (or at least contained) m" seem reasonable enough (even if there's no evidence for one over the other). A glyph representing d coming from a word that doesn't contain d [but instead ḏ] seems weirder, hence my wondering if it was originally drt. The possible connection to ꜥ, and of those words to /d/, is interesting. - -sche (discuss) 23:24, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

conscience

Is it just me, or is this word also pronounced /ˈkɒn.tʃəns/? ---> Tooironic (talk) 23:18, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

That's how I might pronounce it. Vininn126 (talk) 09:29, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

Many people in various countries say it like that as can be seen on Youglish [1]. The same process occurs quite often in reverse with the word bunch [2] and mince and mints are often homophones, either both as ‘mins’ or ‘mints’. Personally I use the s/sh rather than the ts/ch version of all these possibilities. Overlordnat1 (talk) 12:01, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

I think American English merges /nʃ ntʃ/ unconditionally and so the distinction never comes up .... it's a matter of analysis which is the correct underlying pronunciation. See prince for an example of where we distinguish two similar clusters. But I dont know how widespread the distinction is maintained outside the US. —Soap— 19:01, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

I definitely use nʃ with conscience, as distinct from ntʃ in (say) launcher. However, I know Brits who would use ntʃ in conscience as well. Might be worth amending the US pronunciation and having both for the UK, with nʃ coming first as I think it's more common. Theknightwho (talk) 19:43, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

It might even be worth listing three pronunciations for some of these, for example prins, prin?s and prints - like they do in Wikipedia [3]. Overlordnat1 (talk) 13:51, 6 June 2022 (UTC)

• Thanks everyone for your contributions. Listening to the audios on Forvo, it seems /ˈkɒn.tʃəns/ is a common variant, at least in BrE. I went ahead and added it. ---> Tooironic (talk) 11:26, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

That’s probably for the best. I realise we have dunsh and dunch as dialect words with the same meaning (to hit/collide) but presumably a different pronunciation too. I can’t say I’ve seen or heard the dunch form personally though, I’ve only ever heard/seen Geordies say/spell it as dunsh prior to intentionally looking up dunch on a ‘hunch’ that it might be an alternative form earlier today. Overlordnat1 (talk) 22:46, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

No, it's not /ˈkɒn.tʃəns/, and the entry you have put in Wiktionary today is just fraudulent. What it is is that in words like prince (=prints), some people preglottalise after the n. It can then be /ˈkɒnˀ.ʃəns/. The trouble with Wiktionary is that it is a dictionary that people with no academic knowledge of linguistics can edit. The Internet weaponises and empowers the uneducated. It is an editorial policy how narrow the transcriptions are to be. Unless all words like prince and mince show the glottal reinforcement too -- which is not usually found in /nʃ/ -- then it is wrong to enter it here. This has become a downmarket dictionary. Do you mark the preglottalisation of the /k/ in "dictionary"?2A00:23C8:A7A3:4801:733E:646C:63DA:CF9D 12:02, 8 June 2022 (UTC)

A related discussion took recently place here, presenting a reference to Wikipedia, Epenthesis § Bridging consonant clusters.  --Lambiam 14:25, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

It's a phonetic issue, not necessarily a phonemic one. /n/ followed immediately by a homorganic fricative (which applies to English /nʃ/ [ṉʃ]) always produces some amount of plosion by the nature of the sudden onset of the fricative. This is why prince and prints are often (or even usually) homophonous. — 69.120.66.131 01:06, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

Steps versus stairs

To my mind, steps are outside and stairs inside. Should the Wiktionary entry mention this? --217.155.28.98 10:05, 3 June 2022 (UTC)Jonathan Deane

I don’t think there’s such a strict division of meaning in most usages. — Sgconlaw (talk) 11:55, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

I think there might be a distinction in usage relating to the number, configuration, and purpose/setting of various sets of steps referred to as steps vs. stairs. Three steps do not make stairs. Typical stairs ascend a full storey. But in my idiolect there are not stairs but steps to the Lincoln Memorial in Washington DC. There definitely is something to the indoor/outdoor distinction, but it is more complicated. We also have the terms staircase and stairway. I'd be surprised if other languages had exactly homologous groups of words, so we may need to try to make an effort to tease out differences in application of these words so that we have more precise placement for translations. DCDuring (talk) 16:03, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

Hmm. Can't be that simple. Inside a building, I think carpeted ones and long flights are more likely to be stairs and stone ones and short flights are more likely to be steps! Equinox ◑ 16:17, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

A "flight of steps" a Google Books is almost always outdoors, whereas a "flight of stairs" is almost always indoors. "Fire escape" co-occurs about equally with "flight of steps" and "flight of stairs". DCDuring (talk) 16:58, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

I could have sworn I recall reading discussion somewhere adjacent to osmwiki:tag:highway=steps about how 'stairs' in a 'stairwell' were a collection of runs of 'steps' plus 'landings', but a search there isn't turning up anything relevant. Arlo Barnes (talk) 18:48, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

The phrase "landing between stairs" is extremely common, so that distinction seems too narrow. Equinox ◑ 18:51, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

I agree that the number of steps, their setting, etc., probably influence whether stairs or steps is used, but doubt we’ll find enough consistency of usage to be able to capture it in the definitions or usage notes. To add to what’s already been said, I’d probably call them steps if they are broad lengthwise, and stairs if narrow. — Sgconlaw (talk) 21:16, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

For me, steps mostly rest on the ground, while stairs can be supported by some kind of framework. Chuck Entz (talk) 23:54, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

• This looks like a job for some weasel words in our definitions. One of my favorites is "typically". If not weasel words, then usage examples biased toward what we think are more common collocations indicating outdoor for steps and indoor for stairs. — This unsigned comment was added by DCDuring (talk • contribs).

I think there are definite distinctions, even though there is a huge overlap. In a use like “the steps leading to the podium”,^[4][5][6] you cannot substitute “stairs”. Here, and in many cases, I think of “steps” as the plural of “step”, as in “the three steps leading to the podium”.^[7] In contrast, “stairs” is somewhat uncountable, although it can function as its own plural, as seen in “either of two stairs”.^[8][9][10] instead of using “flights of stairs”.^[11][12] If you can immediately count the number of steps just by glancing at the steps, they are unlikely to be referred to as “stairs”. For a sequence of steps to be called “stairs”, the number of steps, and therefore the vertical distance bridged, has to be considerable.  --Lambiam 13:04, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

One can find "one stair" and "two/three... stairs" with stair meaning step. I think that stairs or steps is only very rarely used with a singular verb, whatever the definition; never in my idiolect. DCDuring (talk) 16:37, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

• And then, to keep things interesting, we also have stairstep... 😆 </gleefully_flinging_a_wrench> ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 19:11, 7 June 2022 (UTC)
  • From now on I am referring to everything as stairsteps. bd2412 T 19:33, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

I also spot a few cites of google books:"stepstairs". Oh dear! - -sche (discuss) 22:42, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

• Does stopper belong here too as a kind of stoop or buffer or is it just an ascending plane, ie. #9 "A playspot where water flows back on itself"? I can't explain succinctly why this matters. (found via Ger. Steppdecke where comparison to stopper "bung" seems to be implied).
• As regards Ger. Steiger, akin to stair, this is well relevant to the initial question pertaining to insides (sorry @DCDuring). That is a shaft for utilities or the conductors themselves, cp. Steigleitung and coincidently (unrelated to ladder) Leiter ~ Leitung (“conductor, duct”). This should of course remind of chimneys inasmuch as the architecture is concerned. On the other hand, the sense of connecting levels appears no less pertinent, that is summarized succinctly in the given definition of stairs.

The iconic fire escape from New York cinema deserves a notable mention, by the way. ApisAzuli (talk) 12:39, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

I presume you’re referring to the external fire escapes that lead to a landing with a ladder that people have to lower and climb down in an emergency? They certainly seem to be more common in America than elsewhere but I think they would be included in our existing senses, so there’s no need to create a new sense at our fire escape entry. Overlordnat1 (talk) 00:47, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

loll

The second and third definitions of "loll" are given as follows:

• 2. To hang extended from the mouth, like the tongue of an animal heated from exertion.
• 3. To let (the tongue) hang from the mouth in this way.

However, I do not understand why "from the mouth" is mentioned specifically, for you could "loll" your head on, say, someone's shoulder as well. If you look at the examples themselves, they, perhaps for this very reason, mention "tongue" explicitly: "loll" does not necessarily entail only the tongue:

• 2. ". . . With lolling Tongue . . ."
• 3. ". . . teeth glittering, tongue lolling."

Merriam-Webster and Cambridge Dictionary both do not restrict "loll"'s usage (in this context) to the tongue. — This unsigned comment was added by Cobalt.overshoot (talk • contribs) at 07:52, 4 June 2022 (UTC).

I agree. Also, the quote about cattle ‘lolling their way’ probably means they’re moving slowly, a special case of the ‘act lazily’ definition - I see no reason to assume their tongues are out. Overlordnat1 (talk) 13:57, 6 June 2022 (UTC)

King's Own and Queen's Own

...as used in the names of many British regiments. Just type "King's Own" into Wikipedia and you'll see what I mean. But what do these terms mean? --Jonathan Webley (talk) 12:43, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

heaumeau

Is this presentation of sense 2 ideal? It seems to me that this is typically use as a generic insult in a much wider sense, akin to how gay is used by the unenlightened. By extension I think it is not so much the case that this spelling is offensive, but that this spelling is often used in offensive senses or in offensive statements.
As an aside this type of spelling supposedly originates from the defunct forum Alt0169.com, so perhaps it can be found on archived pages of that site. ←₰-→ Lingo ^Bingo _Dingo (talk) 16:46, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

That translation of the quote looks wrong to me: "Not only is Marc Overmands gay, the entire team of Dicky should drop the soap." is a more literal translation and to me that sounds quite harsh actually. I agree, this doesn't seem to be a separate sense. Thadh (talk) 19:18, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

Yeah, it seems like the senses could be merged, to just define it as an alternative spelling of homo (with whatever context labels appropriate); that entry already covers the "general slur" use, so pseudo-duplicating it here but with (incorrectly?) narrower wording is bad. - -sche (discuss) 23:29, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

On the last point, I might be mistaken, but I feel like the spelling is mocking the "fabulous" aspect of homosexuals? In which case I think there's a slightly greater derogatory component there? But I'm not sure how to represent it in labels. Thadh (talk) 09:40, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

@Thadh While such overtones or undertones are possible, but this is also just the usual affected blog slang spelling that was first seen on Alt0169.com and then spread to GeenStijl and Retecool. Compare val deaut and the rare feauteaumeaudel. I think it is difficult to establish anything definite; it was mainly applied on words that bloggers and commenters wanted to mark, so it was not used for entire statements like leetspeak often was. ←₰-→ Lingo ^Bingo _Dingo (talk) 10:53, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

In that case I agree, we should get rid of the labels in the alt spelling entry. Thadh (talk) 11:28, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

Pronunciation of swaffelen

Someone has added /ˈʒʋɑfələ(n)/ as the transcription for southern Dutch. Does this really exist generally in such a large range or is it distributed more locally, if at all? @Rua, Morgengave ←₰-→ Lingo ^Bingo _Dingo (talk) 17:00, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

Here, in unmistakably southern Dutch, I clearly hear /s/. I’m not sure what the rules are for the “Belgisch kampioenschap zwaffelen”,^[13] but I imagine that people who spell this this way pronounce the term with /z/ and not with /ʒ/. --Lambiam 12:30, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

Please help add the singular of jammies

I want to add a sense of jammy we don't have, as an attributive singular just like pajama is, and paralleling words like sunglass. A usex could be such as Did you put your phone in your jammy drawer? As it stands now we link from jammies to jammy but nowhere on the jammy page is there anything about pajamas. Im sure most English speakers could figure it out, but a learner at a low level of fluency might think that the primary sense is "gun" or even "penis". My eyesight isnt very good and so I cant figure out how to work with the formatting ..... in this case I figured the better thing to do would be to ask for help instead of creating a messy entry. Thank you, —Soap— 18:48, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

@Soap: Added. This should have been at Wiktionary:Requested entries (English). J3133 (talk) 20:40, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

"Elsewhere" as verb

I have found this sentence: "Let us elsewhere ourselves."

The Enigma of the Warwickshire Vortex by F. Gwynplaine MacIntyre  position 8718 in The Mammoth Book of New Sherlock Holmes Adventures (ebook), published by Robinson →ISBN

— This unsigned comment was added by Prparga (talk • contribs) at 07:29, 6 June 2022 (UTC).

Thanks for the alert. We'll keep an eye on this; for inclusion in the dictionary we require two more uses in permanently recorded media (see Wiktionary:Criteria for inclusion § General rule).  --Lambiam 12:36, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

Someone should probably create Citations:Elsewhere. I’d do it myself but I’m not sure how best to format the cite, given that there’s no page number but a position number (8718) instead. Overlordnat1 (talk) 22:54, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

We know that this occurs on p458 of the hardcover version (→ISBN),^[14] even though GBS keeps this specific snippet under a shroud. The name of the story is “The Adventure of the Bulgarian Diplomat”, written by Zakaria Erzinçlioglu.  --Lambiam 23:51, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

How can we be sure it’s part of “The Adventure of the Bulgarian Diplomat” rather than “The Enigma of the Warwickshire Vortex”? Overlordnat1 (talk) 21:38, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

fivescore

I don't think this is a noun. Also, the quote should be correctly formatted. Pious Eterino (talk) 09:12, 6 June 2022 (UTC)

It appears in some archaic writings ([15], [16], [17], [18] and [19]). King’s speech seems to be considered as containing the words ‘five score’ rather than the word ‘fivescore’ here though ([20] and [21]). I can also find one use of five-score [22]. Overlordnat1 (talk) 11:18, 6 June 2022 (UTC)

Also consider fourscore which appears in (some versions of) the Bible and (some editions of) Shakespeare as quoted at our entry. We claim Abraham Lincoln said “four score and seven years ago” in the famous Gettysburg address at that entry and provide a quote from a book to support that but there are other books which quote him as saying “fourscore and seven years ago” - of course it would have sounded the same in any case, so it may be impossible to be precise about that. Overlordnat1 (talk) 11:30, 6 June 2022 (UTC)

The handwritten originals of the Gettysburg Address that I've found online all have four score, though, and the bunched spelling seems to only appear in later printed versions. It may be the reason why we arent quoting Lincoln on our fourscore page. (edit: i didnt see that we actually are quoting Lincoln.) —Soap— 11:50, 6 June 2022 (edited 14:57, 6 June 2022 (UTC))

That’s a good point but the quote is still at the fourscore entry. Perhaps we should list four score and four-score (see [23]) as alternative forms and keep it there. Another option would be to keep the quote at score, where it also appears, and delete it from fourscore. Similar considerations arise for five score/fivescore/five-score. Overlordnat1 (talk) 14:09, 6 June 2022 (UTC)

subhorizontal

Can somebody with the knowledge confirm the definition here ("Not quite horizontal in position or orientation")? I think it might mean "relating to a subhorizon", which is entirely different. Equinox ◑ 22:44, 6 June 2022 (UTC)

Probably both senses exist, e.g. "...in subvertical boreholes at depths below F.Z. 2 invariably produced horizontal or subhorizontal fractures..." seems like it's the definition in the entry, whereas plenty of cites at google books:"subhorizon" "subhorizontal" soil look like the definition you mention. How to tell which sense is meant in other less-clear contexts where it could be either, I don't know. - -sche (discuss) 00:44, 8 June 2022 (UTC)

are geological soil horizons always horizontal in the generic sense of being flat and at an even depth from end to end? I would say that perhaps the two definitions coincide in the field of geology, but only if we allow the definition of horizontal to also have a special sense. —Soap— 08:26, 8 June 2022 (UTC)

Well, approximately flat: [24]. A subhorizon might be "not quite horizontal in position or orientation", but there does seem to be a separate sense too, where "subhorizontal" specifically means "relating to subhorizon" and doesn't just describe any old thing with that orientation. Added. Equinox ◑ 14:59, 8 June 2022 (UTC)

epoch: computing vs. astronomy senses

• (astronomy) A precise instant of time that is used as a point of reference.
• (computing) A precise instant of time that is used as a point of reference (e.g., January 1, 1970, 00:00:00 UTC).

Why are these two separate senses? I'm only familiar with the computing one (it is, as far as my experience goes, the earliest date the computer can recognise, so that all other dates and times are measured by adding to that one). Equinox ◑ 22:59, 6 June 2022 (UTC)

Wikipedia gives this closely related sense: “In chronology and periodization, an epoch or reference epoch is an instant in time chosen as the origin of a particular calendar era. The "epoch" serves as a reference point from which time is measured.” This is not precisely the same as our sense 2: “A notable event which marks the beginning of [a particular period].” The instant in time chosen as the reference moment will preferably be a notable event, but this is not required. At least, I'm not aware of any notable event happening on 11 August 3114 BCE (Long Count 0.0.0.0.0). What is not explicit in these definitions is that the instant of time used as “a point of reference” serves as the zero in some system for identifying instants of time such as 18 brumaire an VIII. IMO we can unify these three senses, e.g. as

“(chronology, astronomy, computing) A specific instant of time, chosen as the zero of a system for identifying instants of time.”

 --Lambiam 10:11, 8 June 2022 (UTC)

I agree with this approach. The current entry using identical wording means that by definition they’re the same thing - both idiomatically and literally. Theknightwho (talk) 22:03, 8 June 2022 (UTC)

I had a go at updating the entry. I altered Lamb's gloss a bit on the basis that astronomical epochs seem to be used to define spatial coordinate systems as opposed to directly acting as the zero for a time measurement system. This, that and the other (talk) 03:28, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

Greyfriars

I was lazy and, fixing the formatting of an entry, assumed any aspect of Oxford notable enough for inclusion here must be one of the colleges. Not so!

Apparently Greyfriars is just a former residence private hall. Do individual halls at universities (even admittedly prestigious ones) actually merit separate inclusion here? What's the prestige criteria? How far down the US News list does eligibility go? How many buildings at Tokyo U and Peking U should be separately included? All of them? or does the OED or CED grandfather the British ones in special? — LlywelynII 11:15, 8 June 2022 (UTC)

The only other permanent private hall we have an entry for is apparently a partial entry that handles that "Regent's Park" can mean Regent's Park College, although that doesn't get a separate entry here yet on its own. — LlywelynII 12:30, 8 June 2022 (UTC)

Greyfriars, Oxford is a former permanent private hall of Oxford University - something very different to a residence hall. These operate in a similar fashion to Oxbridge colleges, but are generally a lot smaller, and can often have quirky aspects to them (such as explicit religious affiliation), and in several cases they also have a combined function as something else. They're quite clearly notable, having extensive WP pages, and in the case of Greyfriars it's also a friary - something that didn't change when it stopped being a PPH.

However, what's relevant to Wiktionary is whether terms are lexical. The reason why it makes sense for Greyfriars, Regent's Park, Blackfriars and St Benet's to have entries is because they're ambiguous (which is true whether or not we have other senses listed). The terms "Regent's Park College" and "St Benet's Hall" are not lexical, and should not have entries.

Theknightwho (talk) 12:50, 8 June 2022 (UTC)

When I went to UCLA in the late '80s, everyone knew that the departments in STEM subjects were on the south end of the campus, and those in the humanities were on the north end, so one could refer to linguists and historians as "north campus" people and chemists or engineers as "south campus". I'm sure there are similar patterns in universities all over the planet. The different buildings at Oxford have a long history and the university has had a major influence on any number of fields of knowledge, but they're still a matter of local knowledge. We have to be very careful about inclusion of local knowledge, because a lot of it is attestable via newspapers and various public records and there's just too much of it. Chuck Entz (talk) 14:20, 8 June 2022 (UTC)

I genuinely don't see the issue with it, but I appreciate it's just a matter of opinion. These things can spread surprisingly far, though, and you never know when something might come in handy for an etymology. Theknightwho (talk) 14:52, 8 June 2022 (UTC)

partouzard = orgygoer

Is there an English equivalent? I'd hoped at least one of orgymaker or orgygoer or orgier or orgydoer to be an actual word Zumbacool (talk) 00:43, 9 June 2022 (UTC)

orgiast is the word you’re looking for. Overlordnat1 (talk) 01:01, 9 June 2022 (UTC)

Dammit, that was too easy. I feel dumb... Zumbacool (talk) 01:05, 9 June 2022 (UTC)

Quite clearly the term is organist, though admittedly that can be a solo activity. Theknightwho (talk) 01:35, 9 June 2022 (UTC)

Pronunciation of puce

Every printed dictionary I have on hand and some ten results from a quick Google search unanimously show the pronunciation as /pjuːs/, not yodless /puːs/ as is currently listed. Is the latter some accepted regional pronunciation at odds with English orthography, or is this simply an error? I'm leaning strongly towards it being erroneous, but the audio file is giving me pause. Wiljahelmaz (talk) 22:54, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

Only one of the 10 examples to be found on YouGlish is yodless. Despite YouGlish tagging the speaker as American they’re clearly Australian ([25] - see hit 8 out of 10). I would always say it with the yod, and I don’t think I’ve ever heard it without, but perhaps in an extreme West Country, East Anglian or Welsh accent the yod might be dropped. Some people might be influenced to an extreme degree by the pronunciation of the French original like Americans are by the pronunciation of the originally Spanish word puma (despite what it says at our entry, it is highly unorthodox for people to say puma without a yod in Britain - I’m not sure how often Americans say it with a yod but I suspect the opposite is true in America). Actually YouGlish proves my suspicions right again, I can only find three exceptions, the British supermodel Cara Delevigne saying ‘puma’ without a yod, the Texan author Joe Galloway saying puma with a yod and one Australian using a yod and the other not on a podcast (the ‘What’s your message?’ podcast). (Overlordnat1 (talk) 00:33, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

Wrong. OED only has it with /j/. Don't trust the audio as that's by Wonderfool. Equinox ◑ 01:34, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

• Thanks for pointing out the error, E-dawg Zumbacool (talk) 16:59, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

In which case you’re clearly right to remove the audio as the only other instance I can find of it being pronounced this way is one Australian on YouTube. It’s occurred to me that Cara Delevigne and the Australian who say Puma without a yod might only be doing so to reflect the German pronunciation of the originally German brand, they’d probably pronounce puma (the big cat) with a yod. We should probably split the pronunciation for puma into two; without a yod for America (and Canada?) and with a yod for everywhere else. Overlordnat1 (talk) 01:49, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

Proto-Slavic *vòlxъ m pronunciation

Let ask an academician /etymologist/linguist/. Which would be the most likely scenario for, say *vòlxъ m? Would they pronounce, "ò" like in Russian волох IPA(key): [vɐˈɫox] with an "a" ? Or with an "o" as in Ukranian and/or in some other Slavic language, if I am not mistaken

2) Did they drop "l" as it looks like the case in Polish? Example: [ Vwoh] [pol ] Włoch POLISH > an ITALIAN vocative Włochu = Vwohfu IPA(key): /vwɔx/.

Is there such thing as comparative evidence on phonology/pronunciation of a reconstructed language? Flāvidus (talk) 02:34, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

@Flāvidus: I wouldn't even bother so much to find it out. akanye is a feature of the standard and modern Russian (and Belarusian) but there are dialects, which were much more prominent in the past. First signs of akanye appeared around the 14th century, according to some sources but it's nowhere near the common and the only pronunciation and applied only to Russian with 100% certainty.

As for your other question (e.g. "olo"/"oro" vs "la"/"ra", etc. in East Slavic languages), this feature is called полногла́сие (polnoglásije, “pleophony, polnoglasie”) and there are too many examples where East Slavic terms have more vowels than any other cognates in other Slavic languages and the Proto-Slavic itself. Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 07:29, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

Polish underwent a lot of metathesis with liquids and vowels, whereas more Eastern Slavic languages added a vowel, as Anatoli already mentioned. It is written with an o because it was most likely spoken with an o, with a falling tone at that. Wikipedia has some great articles on Proto Slavic phonology as well as sound changes from Proto Slavic to modern Slavic languages. Vininn126 (talk) 12:32, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

I would add that *vòlxъ is more or less an etymological fiction. At the time of Proto-Slavic (c. 500 AD), this term would have been pronounced more like *valxu. The sound changes /a/ -> /o/ and /u/ -> /ъ/ date to the Common Slavic period that, strictly speaking, post-dates Proto-Slavic. The reason why *vòlxъ is reconstructed is because all Slavic languages underwent these two sound changes (and several others during the Common Slavic period), but by that point, some dialectal changes had already happened, e.g. the change of /al/ into either /laː/, /la/ (→ /lo/) or /ala/ (→ /olo/). The existence of /a/ not /o/, for example, in Proto-Slavic is known for certain by transliterations of contemporary Slavic names into Greek. Benwing2 (talk) 00:13, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

Notably Polish has many more cases of "o" where the majority of Slavic languages (excluding East Slavic polnoglasie) have "a", as in *golva - Polish głowa, Czech hlava, Bulgarian глава́ (glavá). --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 02:58, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

5K

It's been proposed to me that 5K be set as Word of the Day when we reach the 5,000th WOTD. However, I'd like to check if editors feel it is sum-of-parts. — Sgconlaw (talk) 13:04, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

It isn't a sum of parts. It's a product!

It's missing a unit, too. So it seems to be even less than a sum of parts. In the defined context it seems to be a recurrent proper name, and not fictional either, so maybe that needs an update. ApisAzuli (talk) 11:10, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

It doesn't require a unit, because K is an abbreviation for kilometre(s). Thus it seems SoP to me because it's 5 + K (kilometres). Not sure why you think it should be a "proper name" (do you mean proper noun?), though. — Sgconlaw (talk) 13:52, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

See proper name, there is no real difference.

Don't worry, I am wondering about proper nouns for a while now because of the entirely arbitrary capitalization. If Winter is the personification of winter, if that's how you choose to split the difference, then 5K is the baby reincarnation of the Marathon myth, where Μαραθών itself is a typical proper noun. So this is just my gut feeling as someone who doesn't run on a weekly basis. Someone else might think of it as a distance, in which case '5000 meter' surely is SoP.

But, why does K stand for kilometer, where did you take that idea from? It usually stands for kg because that's a standard unit, and then it is /ki:/, in contrast to the 5k audio. ApisAzuli (talk) 05:11, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

@ApisAzuli: er, because 5K means a 5,000-meter (5-kilometre) race? Obviously K doesn’t refer to kilogram or any other unit in this context. — Sgconlaw (talk) 06:16, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

I'm not sure how the road race part is obvious from the name. You're assuming a lot of contextual knowledge here. Theknightwho (talk) 06:55, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

@Theknightwho: that’s a good point, that the fact it is a race is not obvious from the name (though the distance is, in my view). But then that fact should just be captured in the definition of K. It doesn’t seem like there in anything particularly significant about 5K; you could have 1K, 2K, 10K, and so on. — Sgconlaw (talk) 07:11, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

Beyond that, there's a difference between the 5K, the 5000 metres and (yes, really) the 5,000km race. Theknightwho (talk) 07:15, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

@Sgconlaw Just spotted your edit. I don’t think it make sense to have that under K, because that gets used more widely to just mean “kilometre” (which I agree should be an sense of that, as it’s widely used informally). If someone said “I’m doing a 7K on Saturday” I would not immediately assume they meant a run, as it’s nonstandard, so I’d probably ask for clarification: for all I know it could be standard in some other sport I’m less familiar with. Only 5K and 10K carry the immediate connotation. Theknightwho (talk) 12:40, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

Unless we want to unleash a mini-onslaught of SoP entries and be compelled to educate newbies about CFI, I think we should not make it a WOTD. I do agree with the arguments for including it. DCDuring (talk) 13:34, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

@ApisAzuli, DCDuring, Theknightwho: OK, I don't think we'll feature it as WOTD. Will leave the possible SoP issue to be sorted out another day. — Sgconlaw (talk) 15:33, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

devil (nautical)

From the entry “Between the Devil and the Deep Blue Sea” in Scholastic Dictionary of Idioms:

In the early 17th century the heavy plank fastened to the side of a vessel as a support for guns was called the devil. Sometimes a sailor had to go out onto this plank to do repairs to the boat. In heavy seas he would be in great danger of falling overboard and drowning because he was between “the devil and the deep blue sea”.

I have struggled to verify this sailor's speak sense, which is not mentioned on the Wiktionary entry for devil, nor is there any etymology listed on between the devil and the deep blue sea. All I have found are some online posts by laypeople which refer to the aforementioned etymology of the idiom, with lots of variation in how it's described. But these people also seem to be confused about the nautical meaning of devil. More problematic is that the description cited above seems to refer to the gunwale, and this is not something sailors would have stood upon like a plank during ship maintenance—but even if they did, they wouldn't be between it and the sea, so the book's etymology doesn't make sense under scrutiny. Perhaps devil was indeed a synonym of gunwale, and sailors hung from it, or climbed alongside the boat underneath it? But that doesn't seem right either. I suspect that there was a real nautical term devil, but that authors not familiar with it butchered its definition as the etymology was handed down over generations. Needless to say I am not familiar with nautical speak, let alone 17th-century jargon, so I would appreciate any help in researching this. — 69.120.66.131 21:27, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

The OED has a similar (but non-identical?) sense: "13. Nautical. Any of various seams in the planking of a wooden ship, esp. either of the long seams running along the keel, which are considered difficult to caulk. Now historical and rare." They go on to say that it is sometimes suggested as the origin of the phrase "the devil to pay and no pitch hot". They give four citations but they are all mentions, not uses, taken from other dictionaries and reference books. Equinox ◑ 01:17, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

OED (1897) provides the definition "The seam which margins the waterways on a ship's hull", citing Smyth (entry "DEVIL TO PAY [...]"). This is followed by an alternative definition, which may or may not be equivalent, "a seam between the garboard-strake and the keel", citing Funk & Wagnalls.

I'm not sure this is the right sense for "between the devil and the deep blue sea", but it seems superficially plausible. (Wrote this comment before noticing the other one was posted.) 98.170.164.88 01:17, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

spitting image

Same source as the above. Is there any reason to suppose an old meaning “likeness” for the word spit? And which etymology would that sense belong to? (Apologies if this is better suited for the etymology scriptorium, but I think it should be kept with the above.) — 69.120.66.131 21:41, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

This sense definitely exists. There's already a relevant sense on spit: "A person who exactly resembles someone else (usually in set phrases; see spitting image)", supported with quotations. It's also in a bunch of other dictionaries. Some early examples: 1805, 1818, 1824. I did not search very hard for earlier examples.

We currently group this sense of spit together with the saliva sense. However, the Scholastic Dictionary entry you referenced (first ed., second ed.) adds something about possible relation to the word spirit. I don't know if this is supported. 98.170.164.88 22:07, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

I somehow missed it. Thank you. — 69.120.66.131 22:09, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

The "spit and image" > "spitting image" idea is well-attested and supported by other etymological dictionaries (example). 98.170.164.88 22:11, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

This has to be from t-glotallized from speculum, equivalent to Spiegelbild, cp. spy, spähen, bespitzeln. Last time I have checked nobody knew that, but I doubt that I am the first one to recognize. As for spirit, see likewise spectre. ApisAzuli (talk) 11:41, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

Help with citing the Commentarii notarum tironianarum (1893)

I was recently working on a page for Latin nucunculus, a word that is attested only in a table of Tironian notes (Latin shorthand). The standard reference work for these notes seems to be Commentarii notarum tironianarum cum prolegomenis adnotationibus criticis et exegeticis notarumque indice alphabetico, (1893), edited by Wilhelm Schmitz, a work that has entered the public domain in the United States and is available to read online on the Internet Archive. However, it is indexed not with ordinary page numbers, but with some system involving multiple numbers and abbreviations that I'm not too sure of. I tried to reference it the best I could, using the preexisting entry for maculentus, which also cites this source, as a model, but I'd appreciate any advice on understanding the proper format for citing this reference.

Because there is little lexical information that can be provided about this word, I'd like to add a picture of the Tironian note to this entry. Perhaps a scan of a manuscript would be best, but to start with, I was considering adding just the relevant portion of the scan of Schmitz 1893. However, I wasn't sure about the copyright status of the scan itself, as opposed to the original text it reproduces. Is it safe to assume the scan is also public domain in the United States? Urszag (talk) 01:10, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

The citation formatting currently present on nucunculus seems perfectly fine to me.

I believe most scans of public domain content should be in the public domain, per discussion here. 98.170.164.88 01:28, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

blush

Is this sense wrong somehow? "Blushing a beet red" doesn't feel very transitive, as blushing is not something being done to the red. It's more adverbial.

1. (transitive) To change skin color in the face (to a particular shade).

   When he saw it, he blushed a beet red.

   I wasn't surprised, but it was embarrassing enough that I blushed a little pink.

Equinox ◑ 01:14, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

This seems grammatically comparable to sense 5 of appear. On that entry, (intransitive, copulative) is used. Based on the definition of copular verb, it seems like the category that might fit the verb blush in this instance, but IANAG (I am not a grammarian). 98.170.164.88 01:53, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

This is an inchoative verb, like become or turn. It's not transitive because it takes a complement, not an object. It's also a copula. Syntactically, there's not much difference between "he blushed beet red", "he turned beet red" and "he was beet red"- they don't describe actions, they describe states or changes in states. Chuck Entz (talk) 03:08, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

Holocash, holocash

Oddly, these two entries have different definitions (and at least some of the citations appear to back them up). But I suppose really either could be an alt form of the other...? Equinox ◑ 02:22, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

This is one of those words (I know there are others that have come up, but I can't think of them offhand, maybe y]ou or someone else can) where, because people mostly use it to gesture pejoratively and uncarefully at some supposed link between two ideas ("Holocaust, cash! Jews are money-grubbing, amirite?!"), it's hard to write a definition that pins down a "meaning". That said, the gloss in holocash and the second half of the definition in Holocash were similar enough that I merged them. - -sche (discuss) 22:15, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

bruck

Does the adjectival sense need to be marked somehow? Perhaps as "slang" or "dialect"? Tharthan (talk) 05:14, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

Probably (MLE). 98.170.164.88 05:15, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

 Done Equinox ◑ 05:16, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

Italian imperatives of third-person-only verbs?

(Notifying GianWiki, SemperBlotto, Ultimateria, Jberkel, Imetsia, Sartma): A question for native Italian speakers: do third-person imperatives exist for third-person-only verbs like accadere, piovere, bisognare, volerci, etc., i.e. verbs that exist only in the 3rd-person singular and plural? I'm pretty sure the answer is no; it seems to me that third-person imperatives are used specifically as polite second-person imperatives (with Lei/Loro), which don't make sense with such verbs. However, several existing/old verb conjugation tables for these verbs do contain third-person imperatives, and several existing non-lemma forms of these verbs claim to be third-person imperatives (e.g. accada, accadano). I ask because my new conjugation module Module:it-verb does not generate them, and I want to make sure this is correct. Benwing2 (talk) 00:20, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

According to the way I studied the language, only second-person forms are actual imperative forms. The remaining ones use the forms of the subjunctive, in the so-called congiuntivo esortativo (“exhortatory subjunctive”). I suppose that, if you regard those forms as imperatives, impersonal verbs have them as well (e.g. (che) piova! (“let it rain!; may it rain!”)) — GianWiki (talk) 06:43, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

Imperative forms only exist for the second person. "Third person imperatives" (between quotation marks because it is a completely alien concept in Italian; no Italian native speaker would ever consider it an imperative), as @GianWiki explained, are rendered by che + subjunctive.

As for accadere, piovere and bisognare, I really wouldn't say that they only exist in the third person. They are mainly used in the third person, but if you wanted to use them in any other person, you could. If you're writing an ode to rain, you could very well say things like "acqua celeste, che piovi sulla terra" (litt.: "oh heavenly water, that rain on the earth"), "Giovanni, ma cosa stai facendo?" "Accado" ("Giovanni, what are you doing there?" "I'm happening"). Is it unusual? Sure. Impossible, not at all. The Italian dictionary Zingarelli has no problem giving the full declensions of these verbs. I think we should do the same. Sartma (talk) 08:55, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

@Benwing2 With "lei/loro" we use the pure subjunctive to express a polite request. That's not an imperative, though. It also isn't a 3rd person (it is etymologically, that's why the verb form is the same, but meaning wise it's a 2nd person and it should be given along other 2nd person forms). Sartma (talk) 13:54, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

@Sartma Thanks. If you want to include non-third-person forms of these verbs (compare also annottare and impersonal-only verbs like piovigginare), then I will see about doing so and marking them as rare. BTW is Zingarelli online anywhere? I don't seem to be able to find it. Benwing2 (talk) 01:18, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

@Benwing2: annottare and piovigginare only have the third person, so they're good the way they are (Zingarelli confirmed that too). But piovere, accadere and bisognare have all forms. To be honest, I don't really know if there is a rule to decide which verbs only have the third person and which can be used in all forms... I guess a good dictionary would tell you? I'm also not sure that it makes sense to mark them as "rare" (unless "rarity of use" something we regularly mark on Wiktionary lemmas...?) I even found a book titled "Io accado".

Unluckily Zingarelli is not available for free. I use it for work so I have my own digital copy that gives declension tables for all verbs. Sartma (talk) 09:44, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

transliterator

Hey, I'm reading transliterator and I can't figure out what this is. If I were a person unfamiliar with this term (I am), I would be lost (I am). Is this a job or a software or what? If it is a job, are there famous transliterators from history? I would appreciate an example sentence or similar where someone noted for their transliterator skills is mentioned. Unfamiliar with this line of work. --Geographyinitiative (talk) 20:37, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

It's an agent noun. The definition's a bit substandard, because it doesn't need to be a person. Agent nouns sometimes get used as professions, and sometimes those are perceived as more formal. For example, someone can be an actor (as an agent noun) without being an actor (the profession).

I'd suggest we just change it to "One who transliterates", because that also covers things like software etc. Theknightwho (talk) 23:08, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

@Theknightwho: actually, "one who transliterates" doesn't suggest to me anything other than a human person. If you want a definition that also includes software, I think it would have to be something like "A person who, or thing which, transliterates." — Sgconlaw (talk) 13:45, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

"That which transliterates"? Though I'm pretty sure it's a standard use of one (pronoun sense 4). Theknightwho (talk) 13:50, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

@Theknightwho: It should be “one who or that which transliterates”, to include both people and things (e.g., see this search). J3133 (talk) 13:52, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

Gloriously cumbersome. Theknightwho (talk) 13:56, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

We use it on many pages and I doubt you would find a better solution. J3133 (talk) 14:01, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

one pronoun sense 4 covers this and it's used in a vast number of Latin entries, but okay matey. Theknightwho (talk) 14:18, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

@Theknightwho: As Sgconlaw has stated above, one does not suggest anything other than a human person to most, and I agree. Were that not the case, as many as have added “one who or that which” would not. J3133 (talk) 14:21, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

The problem here isn't the first pronoun, but the second: who specifies a person. You can't say "the one who" about a thing without anthropomorphizing it. How about "someone or something that transliterates"? Chuck Entz (talk) 14:58, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

This feels much more natural, and I'd prefer this as the standard wording. Theknightwho (talk) 05:09, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

Yes, that sounds good! — Sgconlaw (talk) 05:27, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

Italian odiare: tu odi, tu odii, ...? che io odi, che io odii, ...?

(Notifying GianWiki, SemperBlotto, Ultimateria, Jberkel, Imetsia, Sartma): Hi. I'm confused a verb like odiare. Hoepli [26], which is generally trustworthy, says "tu òdii o tu òdi" and similarly it says that the singular present subjunctive is "òdii o òdi". Treccani [27] doesn't say; it just says "òdio etc." DiPI [28] has a subentry that appears to refer to odii but I'm having a hard time interpreting what it says. Olivetti [29] has only odii but I'm somewhat skeptical of this dictionary's reliability. The "Dizionario di Orthografia e Pronuncia" (DOP) would probably shed a lot of light but it seems to no longer exist online (or did it move? If so does anyone know its new location?).

I was under the impression that verbs in -iare with stressed i take -ii, e.g. inviare: io invìo, tu invìi, etc., but that verbs with unstressed i take just -i in the second person singular and the singular present subjunctive. Am I wrong here or is odiare an exception in having tu òdii? Are these forms with -ii archaic or otherwise stylistically differentiated from forms in -i? Are forms in -ii available for every verb in -iare, e.g. studiare, mangiare, lasciare, invecchiare, scoppiare, abbaiare, abbracciare, abbreviare, lanciare, baciare, tagliare, cambiare, variare, etc.? Or maybe only those verbs in -iare where the /i/ is actually pronounced? Or maybe only a small or large subset? Thanks for any help you can give and any light you can shed. Benwing2 (talk) 07:02, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

As far as I know, odiare → tu odi. I've seen forms like odii chiefly used as plural forms of odio (noun) (even though the correct form is odi, or better yet odî), or even archaic spellings like odj. — GianWiki (talk) 07:22, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

@Benwing2: Zingarelli gives òdi as the usual form, and òdii next to it, marked as literary (both for present and conjunctive forms). I don't remember ever reading odii as a verbal form (or if I did, I might just not have noticed that it was spelt with two I's...), but I would definitely never write it with two I's. Sartma (talk) 11:36, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

@Benwing2: Oh, I forgot to reply to the second part of your question. I checked the inflections of all the verbs you listed and only variare has an alternative form varii, marked as rare, next to the usual vari. I don't think there is a rule here, it must be a question of "we found these forms in the corpus of Italian literature we examined, so we need to indicate that they exist". They are definitely not spellings taught in Italian schools. I guess we can add them as alternative forms, just to recognise their existence, but I wouldn't personally do so in a declension table. Sartma (talk) 11:52, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

@GianWiki, Sartma Thanks. I won't include them in the conjugation table but maybe add a usage note about these forms. Benwing2 (talk) 00:43, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

Missing sense of tongue (verb) or noun tonguing?

In the song Wellerman there is the line "One day when the tonguin' is done we'll take our leave and go." Is this synonymous with or related our nautical sense listed as a noun definition of tongue, or is it something else? Acolyte of Ice (talk) 09:52, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

Were the boards that made up the hulls of sailing ships joined by tongue and groove? DCDuring (talk) 15:16, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

I didn't find anything for the last millennium, when they may have used shiplap instead. DCDuring (talk) 15:30, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

See “tongue”, in The Century Dictionary […], New York, N.Y.: The Century Co., 1911, →OCLC. and “tonguing and grooving”, in The Century Dictionary […], New York, N.Y.: The Century Co., 1911, →OCLC.. DCDuring (talk) 15:35, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

Synonyms

I would suggest that if two words refer to the same thing but if both are non-generic terms for it (that is if both belong to different registers), then they should not be stated as synonyms of each other. If one of them is the common term for it, I think only then a synonym of different register can be added. Refer to this entry. In this case, one word is a common slang/vulgar word, and other is a nonstandard/regional term. ·~ dictátor·mundꟾ 11:43, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

Qualifiers are your friend for this. Theknightwho (talk) 13:52, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

Sure, but this should apply only when one of the words is a common term. But if both are non-generic terms, then even using qualifiers, it’s really misleading and looks bad. ·~ dictátor·mundꟾ 15:45, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

Sure - I agree with that. Theknightwho (talk) 17:16, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

@Inqilābī I generally agree with you and suggest you take this to the Beer Parlour. In general we need to be careful with synonyms of different registers, particularly when one of the registers is offensive, vulgar or derogatory. Benwing2 (talk) 00:56, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

Can you give an example where qualifiers won’t do?  --Lambiam 09:20, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

based

The entry for the adjective sense of (internet slang, originally 4chan) praiseworthy; admirable feels less than ideal at the moment for a couple of reasons:

• We don't mention the association that the term has with the alt-right. I notice that that sense was deleted back in 2019 on the basis that it could be folded into the general sense, but I'm not sure that that's entirely accurate. At least for a while, the term was certainly used as a dog whistle, even if it's become more widespread.
• We currently give the usage example "based and redpilled". Frankly, I don't think we should be repeating highly politicised slogans just because they happen to be common collocations, particularly when:
  • There is nothing that indicates the actual implications of that slogan.
  • The entry at red pill also doesn't do a particularly good job of signposting this either (e.g. no usage note in the verb section), and implies that it is far more benign than it really is.

At best the combingation is misleading.

Theknightwho (talk) 02:12, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

I agree, we should add a qualifier (alt-right slogan) and/or "translation" to it. Or perhaps re-add it as a cite? At least there will be some surrounding context. – Jberkel 08:02, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

Wasn't this discussed before? Wiktionary:Tea_room/2021/March#based_and_unbased. I don't think this deserves too much attention, because it is a moving target. ApisAzuli (talk) 08:50, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

I am of course not opposed to factually accurate qualifiers; my sole concern was that I didn't want to remove correct information (the fact that "based and redpilled" is a collocation is undeniable) from that page.

As to the qualifiers: I actually, by and large, agree with the label (Internet slang, originally 4chan) given in based. It appears to me that based has found wide-spread adoption in non-right-wing (i.e. either left-wing or apolitical) circles (leftypol, ContraPoints, this deleted meme) and based and redpilled too though to a (much?) lesser degree. I think we could do with a usage notes section that explains the transition from it being far right lingo to an (innocuous?) main stream Internet word (which is where we are at today from what I can tell). Pinging also @WordyAndNerdy who has proven to be well-versed in online political discourse. — Fytcha〈 T | L | C 〉 10:46, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

I discern three possible senses that could fit under Etymology 2. The first – "not caring what others think" – seems to be the source of the other two. The alt-right sense seems to have emerged on 4chan around 2014 with Gamergate. As a prominent example, Christina Hoff Summers, a libertarian feminist, was dubbed "Based Mom" after she aligned with Gamergate. I would probably define this sense more narrowly: "admirable for rejecting liberalism or left-wing values." It's somewhat synonymous with the later coinage unwoke, but I think the concept of praiseworthiness is baked into its meaning. The third sense I would suggest is a more generalized "admirable or praiseworthy" one. This seems to have grown out of ironic use or reclamation within progressive spaces. WordyAndNerdy (talk) 11:39, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

• Just a comment: The "alt-right" tag seems inaccurate. It is commonly used among socialists/communists online as well. ---> Tooironic (talk) 03:03, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

  Yes, but they in any case have appropriated it from DR memers. ᛙᛆᚱᛐᛁᚿᛌᛆᛌ ᛭ Proto-Norsing ᛭ Ask me anything 12:36, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

• I've always thought of this word as a 4chan (later spread elsewhere) synonym for "awesome". Usage by political edgelords != political word? —Fish bowl (talk) 22:37, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

want to...

I'm rereading Pride and Prejudice (1813), and I have come across a sentence in which Elizabeth says, "Last Christmas you were afraid of his marrying me, because it would be imprudent; and now, because he is trying to get a girl with only ten thousand pounds, you want to find out that he is mercenary." (Chapter Twenty-weven) As I understand it, Elizabeth is teasing her aunt, Mrs Gardiner, who wishes to see "him" (Wickham) in a good light. I understand this sentence to mean "Wickham has gone after Miss King instead of me because she has come into a fortune, but you don't blame him, because her fortune is only ten thousand pounds". In other words, the words "you want to find out that he is mercenary" actually means "you lack the ability to see him as mercenary". That of course is very different to the meaning of "you want to ..." today. I think "want" was not used to mean "wish" back then. Am I right in my interpretation? Can we add this meaning to the article? Eric Kvaalen (talk) 16:07, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

@Eric Kvaalen: I read Pride and Prejudice a very long time ago so I don’t recall the context of the quotation, but just looking at it in isolation it seems to be a straightforward use of want to mean “to desire or wish for (something)”. Elizabeth is insinuating that her aunt is prejudiced against Wickham; she is constantly trying to find fault with him, and so she wants (desires, wishes) to find out that he is pursuing Miss King only for her money. — Sgconlaw (talk) 16:38, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

@Sgconlaw: Well, I think it's the opposite! Take a look: Pride and Prejudice Eric Kvaalen (talk) 17:28, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

@Eric Kvaalen: I have read the relevant page, and my opinion remains unchanged.

“But my dear Elizabeth,” she added, “what sort of girl is Miss King? I should be sorry to think our friend mercenary.”

“Pray, my dear aunt, what is the difference in matrimonial affairs, between the mercenary and the prudent motive? Where does discretion end, and avarice begin? Last Christmas you were afraid of his marrying me, because it would be imprudent; and now, because he is trying to get a girl with only ten thousand pounds, you want to find out that he is mercenary.”

— Sgconlaw (talk) 18:40, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

@Eric Kvaalen I think the confusion here is coming from the word "only". It doesn't mean that Miss King's fortune is "only ten thousand pounds" (i.e. small) - it means that Miss King is "a girl with only ten thousand pounds" (i.e. that's the only thing she has going for her, from Wickham's perspective). Theknightwho (talk) 02:43, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

MW 1913 has "To feel need of; to wish or long for; to desire; to crave." Webster 1828 has a similar definition. DCDuring (talk) 18:32, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

I suppose you folks are right. Now that I've found a PDF of it, I checked and found that there are about a dozen other places where "want to" is used and the ones I checked do mean "desire to'. I find the passage in question difficult to understand. Mrs Gardiner does seem to desire to think well of Wickham. She says later, "I should be sorry, you know, to think ill of a young man who has lived so long in Derbyshire".

Apparently "want to" did mean "desire to" in 1813. But in 1611 the King James Bible never used the word "want" to meant "desire". There are many places where the Greek has the verb meaning to desire or wish, but the KJV always uses "will", "would", "desire", or something similar. For instance, the "Golden Rule" in Matthew 7:12 says, "all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them". People think it means "what you would have them do unto you", like a conditional, but it really means "what you want them to do unto you".

While we're at it, can someone explain to me why Elizabeth says, near the end of Chapter 29, "I am not one and twenty"?

Eric Kvaalen (talk) 08:38, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

@Eric Kvaalen: Elizabeth is saying, "I am not yet 21 years old." — Sgconlaw (talk) 13:12, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

@Sgconlaw: Well, I don't really understand why she says that. She would then be agreeing with Lady de Burgh that she is not more than 20. I don't see the point of it. Maybe it's just a way of saying "Yes, I am 20." A bit earlier she says her youngest sister "is not sixteen", which I suppose is just saying she's 15. Like when we say "She's going on 16" or "I'm going on 21". (By the way, four daughters between the ages of 15 and 20 seems a lot!) Eric Kvaalen (talk) 15:49, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

@Eric Kvaalen "I should be sorry" is an affectation. It would have been socially unacceptable for her to openly express desire that Wickham is bad (or to make a direct accusation), so instead what she's doing is expressing regret (which is socially acceptable) as a way to draw attention to a concern that other people didn't actually have in the first place. It's a good example of the very thing the novel is named for, in fact. Theknightwho (talk) 13:07, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

Just to add: the second time she says she's sorry, she's being intentionally ambiguous. What Mrs Gardiner is actually doing is expressing regret that Derbyshire's reputation might be damaged by someone like that having lived there so long (another example of pride and prejudice in tandem). Again, it might need a bit of attuning to, because it's another common sleight of hand in the UK (even if people wouldn't use that precise phrasing these days). Theknightwho (talk) 13:14, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

(Another addendum) - remember that Mrs Gardiner is ultimately trying to comfort Elizabeth here (essentially "you didn't want him anyway"), with a bit of "I told you so" thrown in. Elizabeth's using irony (sense 3) as a retort to the second bit, but she's being somewhat good-humoured about it because she recognises the good intentions. It's a miscalculated move on Mrs Gardiner's part, though, which is why the conversation goes downhill. Mrs Gardiner has no incentive to think good things of Wickham, in any event. Theknightwho (talk) 13:28, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

Well, maybe. Thanks. Eric Kvaalen (talk) 15:49, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

quality of -ei in Italian 1sg conditional, e.g. vorrei, sarei

(Notifying GianWiki, SemperBlotto, Ultimateria, Jberkel, Imetsia, Sartma): Hi. User:GianWiki posted on my talk page about the conditional ending -ei; he believes it is -èi whereas I currently have -éi in {{it-conj}}. The current pronunciations of vorrei and sarei disagree; the former has vorréi but the later sarèi. My -éi is based on DiPI, see [30], which has -éi for the passato remoto ending, and I would assume that the conditional is in origin the same ending. However, I am not completely sure, and DOP appears to be no longer online; that is a good source for "traditional" pronunciations. Can a native Italian speaker comment? Also it would be great it someone could review the accents I put in pages like amare and insistere that use the new {{it-conj}}. Benwing2 (talk) 02:02, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

OK, Hoepli agrees that it is -èi. I changed the module accordingly. Another question though ... I know that the verb form dà of dare (3rd singular present indicative, 2nd singular imperative) has a written accent on it in normal usage, and dò of dare (1st singular present indicative) can, although do without a written accent is more common. What about sdarsi? Do the forms sdo and/or sda have a written accent? I am guessing the answer is no, and that's what my module implements, but I'm not sure. I know that ridò and ridà of ridare do have a written accent, but that's expected because the forms are multisyllabic with final stress. Same question concerns the imperative dì of dire; what about sdire, does the imperative sdi have a written accent? (For that matter, does sdi exist at all? sdire itself is archaic so this may not be easy to answer.) Benwing2 (talk) 06:20, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

Treccani lists the second-person singular imperative form of dire as di’ (with an apostrophe), with dì as a secondary choice (which can also lead to confusion with the noun dì (“day”)). Di’ is likely the best choice. — GianWiki (talk) 07:37, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

One final question, about forms like 1st singular fò of fare, and similarly rifò of rifare, (sod)disfò of disfare/soddisfare, liquefò of liquefare, stupefò of stupefare, etc. Hoepli [31] says fàccio or fò are equally good and Treccani [32] actually lists fò before fàccio, but I gather fò is literary, archaic or regional, so I marked it as such in the conjugation table of all these verbs. Is this correct or are there additional nuances? I know for example that disfare has a common form dìsfo (note the position of the accent) and similarly soddisfare has soddìsfo, and that these forms aren't archaic; and liquefare has forms like lìquefo that are common but proscribed, so there are definitely some subtleties. Benwing2 (talk) 07:12, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

@Benwing2: you're right. fo is indeed literary or regional (Tuscan). Zingarelli gives it as "rare" and spells it without accent. Definitely not standard Italian. I wouldn't say it's archaic, since you still hear it from people speaking regional Italian (mainly in Tuscany), but it's clear to everyone that it's literary/not standard.

As for the 1st singular indicative of the other verbs you mentioned:

• rifare: rifàccio, but Zingarelli also gives rifò (I consider the second regional, though)
• disfare: dìsfo, but Zingarelli also gives disfàccio (wich I would never, ever say, it sounds a bit ignorant, like you don't know it's dìsfo) and disfò (wich I would also never say, since it sounds like a 3rd person past, like lui disfò - even though apparently the correct form would be lui disféce)
• soddisfare: soddìsfo, but Zingarelli also gives soddisfàccio (that I never heard and also would never use) and soddisfò as "rare".
• liquefare: I say liquefàccio. But Zingarelli says: lìquefo, or, more correct but less widespread, liquefàccio. I would consider lìquefo to be wrong (sounds quite ignorant to me), but if Zingarelli gives it as the most widespread, I guess we can do the same... sigh.
• stupefare: I never use this verb in the first person, it's not generally something people "do". Zingarelli gives stupefàccio and stupefò.

Sartma (talk) 09:42, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

@Benwing2: Zingarelli gives dò as "rare". I wouldn't even put it in inflection tables. In contemporary Italian it's spelt "do". The accent is not needed because it can't really be confused with any other word. The only reason dà is spelt with the accent is to clearly differentiate it from the preposition da (even though it's a bit silly, but that's a story for another day). I never heard sdarsi before. Zingarelli gives it as "Tuscan" in its first meaning of "to stop applying yourself to something", and "rare" in its second meaning of "to do something profusely". It says that it's conjugated like dare, but then in the inflection table it puts accents for everything so one can't really know. I wouldn't personally put an accent, since neither "sdo" nor "sda" can be confused with anything and are one syllable words ("can it be confused with something else?" is the main reason in Italian to write the accent on words that wouldn't normally need it).

As for the imperative of dire, the modern form is only di'. Zingarelli give dì as "disusato" (no more used). I wouldn't put it in inflection tables, maybe just a note saying that you might find it written like that in some old book (but then again, you find any sort of oddities in old books, so I'm not really sure where to draw a line). Of sdire, Zingarelli gives it as "archaic" and doesn't even give the conjugation table, lol. I never heard that verb, we only use disdire these days. I don't know what the imperative would be, to be honest. If it's like disdire it would be sdici, not sdi. I think you can just give it a pass on adding the inflection table for this one. It's not modern Italian anyway... Sartma (talk) 08:49, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

@Benwing2: Oh, just noticed that we have sdici on Wiktionary already. Sartma (talk) 08:50, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

@Benwing2: I forgot one thing about imperatives: the imperative of dare in modern Italian is either dai or da' (with the apostrophe indicating that the -i has dropped). The same is true for fare (fai or fa'), andare (vai or va'), stare (stai or sta'). Forms with the accent like dà are given as "not used anymore" by Zingarelli. I wouldn't put them in inflection tables. Sartma (talk) 09:57, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

@Benwing2: I noticed that at the moment under dare we give dà' as imperative. That's definitely wrong. There should be no accent on the a of da'. Sartma (talk) 10:02, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

@Benwing2: I found a whole paragraph in Zingarelli on when to write the accent on words. It clearly says that it's wrong to write the imperatives of fare, andare, dare, dire and stare with an accent, but they have to be written with the apostrophe, since it's a case of truncation, exactly the same as mo' for modo, po' for poco, ca' for casa, etc. Sartma (talk) 10:16, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

@Benwing2: I checked the accents on amare and insistere. They look alright to me. The only thing that I find a bit strange is the two versions for the 3rd person of the conditional, one with -èbbe(ro) and one in -ébbe(ro). The second one is clearly regional. I'm not sure it should be there... Sartma (talk) 12:12, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

@Sartma Thank you very much for your detailed comments. I'm in the process of incorporating them into the conjugation tables. Some comments:

1. -ébbe(ro) comes from DiPI, which lists -èbbero, -ébbero here: [33] and also in the pronunciation for ebbero itself: [34] DiPI uses various symbols, and if you hover over the "Varianti di pronuncia", it says the first pronunciation is la più consigliabile and pronunciations after a comma are abbastanza consigliabile. Generally DiPI seems reliable, and the pronunciation with high-mid /e/ agrees with the audio pronunciation given for vorrebbero here: [35] That said, if this is a regional pronunciation, I can mark it as such in the table or leave it out.
2. The indication dà' is not to be taken to indicate that the accent should be written; the convention I've used is that I mark the stressed syllable in all words, even monosyllabic words (since the accent may be necessary to convey the quality of e and o), and in monosyllabic words, there's a footnote if the accent is written in normal text, indicating this. You can see an example of this in the table for dare, where the 1sg present indicative has dò twice, where the first one links to do and the second one to dò, and the second one has footnotes "Less common" and "With written accent on monosyllabic verb". Granted, this may be confusing, and there may be a better way; for example, Treccani under fare [36] writes "(pres. fo 〈fò〉 [radd. sint.] o fàccio, fai [ant. faci], fa [radd. sint.; ant. e poet. face], facciamo, fate, fanno; ..."). Possibly some indication for monosyllabic words like fo〈fò〉would be best. I am also thinking of changing the indication of syntactic gemination to use a following superscripted asterisk with an explanatory tooltip; this is already being used in the pronunciation section, see do for an example.
3. As for stupefare, that was intended to stand in for all the remaining compounds of fare. Apparently that is not a good example. There are several others: contraffare, ricontraffare, sopraffare, strafare, prefare, sfare, artefare, putrefare, torrefare, tumefare, assuefare, riassuefare, mansuefare, dissuefare, rarefare, tepefare, satisfare (obsolete, not sure if you can comment on it), benefare (obsolete), perfare (obsolete), misfare (obsolete). Maybe you can comment on (some of) these.

Benwing2 (talk) 01:24, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

faceless metaphorical senses

2. Having or revealing no individual identity or character; anonymous. 3. Having or revealing no individuality, personality or distinctive characteristics.

How are these really different? The "corporation" usex was under sense 2, but I moved it under sense 3, because a corporation isn't anonymous (every large corp has got a name), it's merely lacking personality. Should we merge? Equinox ◑ 05:18, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

меньше: confused and confusing?

меньше (menʹše) has two Adverb sections and one Adjective section. Russian Wiktionary simply says that is both, being the comparative of the adverb мало (malo) and the adjective малый (malyj). Here, however, we have an second adverb section, defining it as “under, below”, without specifying the sense, so that one could easily take it to mean “spatially below” (a sense ru.wiktionary does not mention). Is this a mistake, and should we simply scrap the second adverb section? The second adverb section was introduced in this edit on 2019-02-03 by @Benwing2, who normally seems highly reliable, but maybe this was a slip. PJTraill (talk) 09:44, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

@PJTraill I took a look at the history. The "under, below" text was there from almost the very beginning but as a synonym of "less than". Somehow in the process of editing this I gradually separated this sense from the "less than" sense, probably out of confusion. I think we should remove it and I'll do so. Benwing2 (talk) 00:39, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

tokus

I think that toches is the wrong primary spelling. When I starting writing this I thought tokus should be the primary spelling, but now I think there's an argument to be made for tuchus too. In any case, I didn't make any big changes myself because I'm brand new here and I'd be overturning existing consensus.

Assorted evidence:

• Merriam-Webster has tokus but not toches.
• Collins has tokus, tuchis, and tochis but not toches.
• Google books was inconclusive. It has more results for toches than tokus, but I didn't see anything relevant from either search when I glanced at the first couple of pages of results. (Most results for the former that I looked at were either a misspelling of touches or referring to the Louisiana city of Natchitoches. For the latter, almost all of them used it as a name, many in the context of the Ohio court case Railway v. Tokus)
• When searched the OED (using their "quick search" option, not the advanced search of their corpus), tokus redirected me to tuchus whereas tochis just said "no dictionary entries found".
• In light of the OED result, I searched Merriam-Webster and Collins for tuchus. Collins doesn't have a page but MW does, and it's better fleshed out than their tokus page to boot.

Anyway, I'm not sure what to make of all this and I'm brand new here, so I was hoping some more experienced editors could sort this out. Thanks, WallAdhesion (talk) 18:52, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for spending time doing the digging. We are probably going to support any spelling that has got a serious weight of usage (clearly we can't exist just by copying what other dictionaries say). There is something to be said regarding which entry should be the "main" one (hopefully the most common) that we redirect others to. We usually support forms that have got plausible citations (see WT:RFV): if they all look dodgy or possibly erroneous (e.g. we can only ever find foreign-looking author names) then we might drop it, or at least call it rare or non-standard. Equinox ◑ 19:04, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

@WallAdhesion, Equinox I have never seen the spelling tokus. The spelling toches seems influenced by the original Yiddish spelling, which is logical, but my pronunciation is /ˈtʊxəs/ and I have never heard the primary pronunciation /ˈtɒxəs/ that we give. So I think it should be under tuchus. Benwing2 (talk) 00:44, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

@Benwing2 I think I'm also convinced it should be under tuchus.

A Google Ngram suggests that "tuchus" is the most popular lately. And when I spot-checked the first 20 recent Google Book results for "tuchus", about half were legit (most of the rest being Yiddish inside of otherwise English books). For "toches" I saw one out of twenty that looked like this usage, with the rest mostly Yiddish or Natchitoches, Louisiana. For "tokus" I think four of the first twenty I looked at were right. So the true number of each ("toches" and "tokus") seems like a smaller percentage of a smaller total.

While I'm typing about Google Book results, I'll add that when I looked at 19th century results for "toches" I saw a bunch of Natchitoches, what looked like French, and some failed OCR of the word inches, but nothing remotely relevant. So I think we can discount the older dominance of "toches" in the Ngram as noise.

@Equinox hopefully that qualifies as sufficient non-dictionary evidence. (Sufficient regarding which form is the main one, anyway — I wasn't even thinking about which alternate spellings we should support. That sounds like a whole can of worms I don't want to open.) WallAdhesion (talk) 02:02, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

white privilege

Better? I'm not convinced. [37] Equinox ◑ 19:10, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

Wikipedia's first sentence seems pretty good:

White privilege, or white skin privilege, is the societal privilege that benefits white people over non-white people in some societies, particularly if they are otherwise under the same social, political, or economic circumstances.

Benwing2 (talk) 00:47, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

(PS Sorry if I introduced any problematic wording there [38]; I was merely trying to restate the definition after I consulted the English Wikipedia article. I am not an expert on this subject.) --Geographyinitiative (talk) 00:54, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

That sounds like an academic definition. The normal-use definition seems more SoP to me. DCDuring (talk) 01:42, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

What is a "cork mould"?

From corking pin: A large pin used to attach a woman's headdress to a cork mould.

- What exactly is this "cork mould"? Some framework, make of cork, to maintain an elaborately-shaped headdress? Maybe some additional explanatory sentence is needed, because it's so unclear. --CopperKettle (talk) 04:31, 18 June 2022 (UTC)