Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Novels/Crime task force

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This is talk page associated with the WikiProject Crime task force belonging to Wikipedia:WikiProject Novels. It is used as a discussion forum for the task force.

Discussion for the Crime task force

Patricia Cornwell

The novels of Patricia Cornwell could do with some work. Several of the Kay Scarpetta series in particular have been set up as separate articles, but it's hard to describe them even as stubs. Several literally consist of just one sentence. The only one that has an infobox is Predator (novel). Postmortem (novel), in particular, could do with better treatment I think as the recipient of the Edgar, Creasey, Anthony and Macavity Awards and the French Prix du Roman d'Adventure. I've tagged all those that exist so that they should now be appearing in the task force category, and I plan to work them myself when I have time, but I would appreciate any help people can provide given the scale of the work involved. Silverthorn 16:42, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Might have a lack of time for about a week as I am likely to be mostly on a wikibreak, however do keep us up to date on progress. When I get a chance I will look in on them. :: Kevinalewis : ^{(Talk Page)}/_(Desk) 09:15, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

I have been working on expanding these. All those that have been created should now have an infobox and most, with the exception of Predator which I haven't had a chance to get to yet, should also now contain more than just a brief few sentences. Only three novels in the series have not been created at all yet. It seemed better to work on improving those articles that had already been created before adding new ones. These three are:

• Point of Origin (1998) ISBN 0-399-14394-7
• Black Notice (1999) ISBN 0-399-14508-7
• Book of the Dead (2007) ISBN 0-399-15393-4

Silverthorn 12:40, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Introduction

Hi folks: I'm a fairly new editor but this is precisely the task force with which I'd like to be associated. I'm not sure what I should do now that I've found you and joined you. Your suggestions would be gratefully appreciated. You might cast an eye over my contributions to date (especially in the area of Ellery Queen novels, for which I've been creating pages) and let me know what you'd like me to do to bring them into alignment with your project. I'm inexperienced with markup so would love to have templates that I could use to help you when I make contributions. Accounting4Taste 05:37, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Hi! Welcome aboard. There are links to templates for articles in the right-hand column of this page, which sound like what you are looking for. Also, any articles that fit into this task force need to be tagged if they aren't already. The coding for that is on the task force front page, below where you signed up as a participant. If it's done correctly, you'll see a little symbol appear on the main novels project banner that says its part of this taskforce. I hope that helps. Silverthorn 10:14, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Also welcome, I've had a quick look at the Ellery Queen articles and you have made a very good start. I have added a "Novels by" category and made a few other changes on the main pages and the talk pages. You might like to have a look over them and then look at the ArticleTemplate and StyleGuidelines pages. There are plenty of tagging activity to do, article de-stubification etc. :: Kevinalewis : ^{(Talk Page)}/_(Desk) 16:24, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the welcomes. As you may have noted, I'm more interested in the older novels in this category. I've started on the task of bringing the entries I've been working on into line with the preferred format (infobox and the task force tag) -- mostly the novels of Ellery Queen and S. S. Van Dine. Do articles about mystery writers fall under the heading of this project? I'm also not absolutely sure what Kevinalewis meant by "Novels by" category. There's also one task that I've been putting off because I'm not sure how to do it, but I'm not sure if it falls within the boundaries of this task force. I want to combine Bertha Cool and Donald Lam into a single new page, Cool and Lam, without losing any of the talk page comments. Any assistance or pointers to exactly how this process is accomplished would be, again, very welcome. Oh, and where exactly can I find a list of "tagging activity, article de-stubification" that you want done? I tried to find a list of these items but it seems to be subsumed within the more general category of lists that the novel task force wants worked on. Accounting4Taste 18:10, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Before anybody wastes a lot of time answering all of the above -- I think, to spare your time, I'll thoroughly investigate Patricia Cornwell and take careful note of exactly what it is you're doing and what tags, etc., you use to do it, and THEN ask questions if I still need to. But I could still use help combining Bertha Cool and Donald Lam into Cool and Lam. Sorry about the previous spate of questions -- just chalk it up to enthusiasm about getting started on this project. If there's a better way to learn the details than from Patricia Cornwell, by all means let me know. Accounting4Taste 19:49, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

"Novels by ..." see example below (however normally stacked one on the other!

{{DEFAULTSORT:Body Farm, The}} [[Category:1995 novels]] [[Category:Crime novels]] [[Category:Novels by Patricia Cornwell]]

"Detective, Crime, Mystery" novels and other prose should be tagged as part of the project.

"Hope that helps. I'll have a look at the merge issue. :: Kevinalewis : ^{(Talk Page)}/_(Desk) 08:34, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

On the merge front - seems a reasonable thing to do - In terms of actually merge unless there is some thing admins can do I thing the only way would be to rename the main article and then manually blend in the text from the main article and the talk. I know that leaves the history log out in the cold but I don't know of alternatives. :: Kevinalewis : ^{(Talk Page)}/_(Desk) 08:45, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Added categories

I've added some categories to the crime task force page -- for crime writers rather than crime novels, but still distinguished by country of origin. If this isn't the correct thing to do, please let me know. I suspect there may be more categories to add. Accounting4Taste 18:46, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

There are, but I'm not sure if "writers" should be within scope. Certainly the parent Novels project, focuses on the prose and the associated, characters, locations, etc and stops short of the biogrpaphies of the authors. That is more the realm of WPBiography. :: Kevinalewis : ^{(Talk Page)}/_(Desk) 09:28, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

I see your point about the WPBiography project. The trouble is, there are crime writers like Ellery Queen, Craig Rice and Phoebe Atwood Taylor (to name some I've been working on recently) where the information on the detective character is built into the page concerned with the author. I suppose those would have to be split out into author and character ... a lot of work. And for, say, Phoebe Atwood Taylor, there's little information available about the author, which would make for a very scanty article. Your thoughts would be welcome. Accounting4Taste 16:04, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

It occurs to me that, regardless of whether or not these pages collecting categories of writers truly belong to this project, they are useful -- I might start working on, say, Lord Peter Wimsey by going to the article about Dorothy L. Sayers (although I realize those are both quite well-defined articles already). I think I might find work to do for the task force by having these category tags on the page. Does this make sense? I don't mind deleting them if it's appropriate, no worries there. Accounting4Taste 18:35, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

I do agree that bios of writers are probably outside the scope of this project. But the bibliographies of crime writers, I think, definitely are within. For the important authors it might even be good idea to have navigational templates that list the books similar to the one in Raymond Chandler. Henry Merrivale 03:03, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Subcategories

I have created the subcategory Category:Crime fiction novels by author within Category:Crime novels at the same time decategorizing corresponding novels from Category:Crime novels. I think it helps to depopulate the mother category and keep it to the manageable size. As Kevinalewis pointed out to me, the fiction novel part of the cat name is redundant so I will correct it to crime novels by author. The reason for my stupidity is classification of authors: crime fiction vs. non-fiction crime. I also propose to create subcategory crime novel series. What do you think? If this is reasonable then it would be good if we could come up with the list of authors and series that are important, interesting, or just so numerous that they deserve it. Henry Merrivale 00:52, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Superb work, if you could ensure Category:Crime novel series is also sub/part of Category:Crime novels & Category:Novel series that would seem good to me. :: Kevinalewis : ^{(Talk Page)}/_(Desk) 10:27, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Oh yes, one thought. When placing authors categories within a genre based category you need to be conscious of their entire output. For instance, to my knowledge Agatha Christie wrote at least one Spy novel. If so then I would council keeping such an author in the wider Category:Novels by author in addition until all their output is covered by such genre categories. In this case they author would then be dropped down and in this example to Category:Crime novels by author and Category:Spy novels by author. :: Kevinalewis : ^{(Talk Page)}/_(Desk) 11:02, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Category:Crime novel series is up. Any suggestions as to what series deserve to be there? Henry Merrivale 10:12, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Nice work, no ideas currently I'll try and have a look a little later this afternoon. One thing the Category:In Death (Novels) appears to be a rather badly named cat., should it not rather be something like Category:In Death (novel series) with the disambig elements in lower case and clearly indicating the word series as many other series cats do. :: Kevinalewis : ^{(Talk Page)}/_(Desk) 10:52, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Mass removal of short story-related category tags

This is definitely of interest for anyone in the Short Story Task Force. An editor is going around removing books from the various short story-related categories. The rationale being given is that the book is not a short story. Yet the editor is not replacing the category with an alternative. And the categories themselves simply say "X short stories" - which should apply to collections as well as the individual pieces themselves. I've asked the editor to explain himself before I start reverting the ones on my watchlist. But I thought I would give folks a heads up on this. For an example, check the edit history of Saint Errant, a collection of detective short stories that have been removed from the related category. 23skidoo 11:27, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Surely in this case the thing would be to replace Category:Detective fiction short stories with possibly a new Category:Detective short story collections (I'm not sure about the "fiction" element of this it is largely redundant). :: Kevinalewis : ^{(Talk Page)}/_(Desk) 12:41, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

The other category in the example does a appear to be dispensable. :: Kevinalewis : ^{(Talk Page)}/_(Desk) 12:41, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

also this probably should be discussed on the task-force talk page. And the debate maybe referenced here. :: Kevinalewis : ^{(Talk Page)}/_(Desk) 12:44, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

So moved. :: Kevinalewis : ^{(Talk Page)}/_(Desk) 12:48, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Actually investigating further these have arrived under Category:Mystery short story collections by virtue of the Category:Short story collections by Leslie Charteris and is that not a more appropriate home than "Detective fiction". Just a question. :: Kevinalewis : ^{(Talk Page)}/_(Desk) 12:54, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Just to add my 2-cents, I didn't realize there was a substitute category created, so my "complaint" above was probably in error. Still, it's probably worth bringing to people's attention that there are some redundant categories out there. 23skidoo 12:41, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Mystery films

I recognize that the Crime task force is part of the Novels project. At the same time, I've just learned that there is a category of mystery films and I'm wondering if a link might somehow be included within the Crime task force. I guess what I'm asking is, is this task force about crime, or about novels? Accounting4Taste 16:35, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

The combination - strictly speaking, taking the lead from the parent project "Crime narrative fiction prose". But a few associated interests shouldn't harm unless they become the main focus. :: Kevinalewis : ^{(Talk Page)}/_(Desk) 16:53, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

"Associated interests" -- very well put, and thank you. I ask because most people associate Charlie Chan or Boston Blackie with mystery films more than they do mystery novels (to give some examples). I will add a section on the main page called "Associated interests" (and of course if someone feels strongly about what this should be called, by all means change it or even delete it). Accounting4Taste 16:57, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Deletion discussion that may be of interest

The crime task force members may care to look at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of fictional amateur detectives, which is up for deletion. I want to add that I'm not encouraging anyone to have an opinion which matches/does not match my own, which is for deletion -- if there's a good point to keeping this list, I'd like to know about it so I can change what's left of my mind ;-) I just think that the more opinions we get, the better the final decision will be, and it occurred to me that this task force's members might have an opinion as to the utility of this list. Accounting4Taste 23:07, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Ellery Queen

My New Year's resolution, in Wikipedia terms, is to bring Ellery Queen to FA status. I've asked a couple of editors to give this article the once-over and let me know what might need to happen. If anyone in the Crime task force has comments to offer, they would be welcome (I think I'd find them fastest on Talk:Ellery Queen). Thanks in advance, and happy new year! Accounting4Taste:talk 21:52, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

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Articles needed

I am planning on creating (over indefinite future period of time:) an articles on missing Gold Dagger and Edgar Award winners. I rate all of them as of at leas Mid importance, which I believe is reasonable given the relative importance of the awards.

The list is currently here. Should it be also duplicated on the task force page? What do you think? and please join me in creating articles! Henry Merrivale (talk) 05:28, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

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Proposed Occult Detectives Task Force/Work Group

I've recently proposed to the WikiProject Council that there be a task force for WikiProject Horror created to deal with occult detectives in fiction and film. If this work group gathers enough support to be created, there would be some overlap between your task force and mine. As such (should my new task force be approved), I would like to work closely with your core membership to ensure standardization of articles.

In addition, some of your membership may have an interest in the occult detectives subgenre. Those interested should please view my official proposal here, then please add to the discussion and/or sign your support for this task force's creation.

As I am not a standing member of your task force, please forgive my intrusion into your discussion area and direct any/all communication towards my talk page. Thank you. Hornoir (talk) 14:44, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Not a problem. Although our main focus is the literature itself rather that the in-universe character element (which wikipedia encourages as a focus - real world element that is!) I am sure you will get co-operation from here. :: Kevinalewis : ^{(Talk Page)}/_(Desk) 15:48, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

For clarity, my proposal (while under the name occult detectives) is meant to encompass not only the characters themselves but also the stories written regarding occult detectives and authors who made notable careers in the subgenre. I would have termed the task force Occult Detective Fiction, but I didn't wish to exclude films in the subgenre from the purview. Thank you for the reply. Hornoir (talk) 18:18, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Genre crossover novels

The cry of 'Articles needed' (above) raises the question: what types of novel does this task force claim/disdain? When I look at the 'reds' on the lists of Edgar and Gold Dagger winners (ie novels for which there are still no articles), I find that the only three I own are by authors usually associated with espionage or thrillers. To be specific there is a Robert Littell story, along with two by Eric Ambler (the latter's works are very thinly represented on Wikipedia).

I will doubtless find time at some stage to take a look at these three omissions regardless, but it would be nice to know whether you crime guys feel this sort of thing is under your umbrella. Personally, I don't draw a hard-and-fast distinction between crime/thriller/mystery/spy stories. If there's an intrigue to untangle, I don't much care if it's a cop, a gumshoe, a spycatcher, a salesman or a nautical engineer who is caught up in it (Ambler's protagonists usually fall into categories like the last two). But I know that view is not universally shared. I am sure there are some crime fans who are horrified that John Le Carre was awarded his two Gold Daggers. Views?

Over time I should also like to take a look at Manuel Vazquez Montalban's series featuring the wonderful Barcelona-based gourmet gumshoe Pepe Carvalho. At least eight of these have been translated into English over the last 25 years (that is to say, I already have eight such editions on my bookshelves), and I have yet to find an article on any of them. Again, does this task force feel inclined to support work on translated authors? Grubstreet (talk) 14:59, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Crossover is a bit of a problem, what I would say is that the scope is the place to iron this out. However crime scope would to mean mean, a novel where the main theme is criminal acts or activity, perpetration or fighting. Translated authors yes just depends if they are notable; and that probably mainly in the English speaking world!. :: Kevinalewis : ^{(Talk Page)}/_(Desk) 16:36, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for the response. Vazquez Montalban is considered important enough for there to be a WP biographical article about him (though I think this overlooks his placing at No 26 in The Times' 50 Greatest Crime Writers list in 2008), and his private detective is the subject of a reasonably lengthy WP fictional character article. So I doubt if there will be much of a notability dispute. The only pressing absence on WP is even the stubbiest plot synopsis of any of the novels, including the seven currently in print in English.

Re-examining 'Scope', I think most Ambler stories sit somewhere in there, even if the transgressions involved and the mysteries to be untangled are more likely to be a faked death, a coup d'état or gun-running (not necessarily crimes, technically speaking), rather than a heist – though he did arguably formulate the 'museum caper' genre with Light of Day, filmed as Topkapi. (The film has a WP article; the CWA Dagger-nominated novel does not!).

Looking further at the CWA lists, I can see that there are also a few Silver Dagger winners and numerous nominees that have no articles, including books that I have read and still have copies of by Liza Cody, Sarah Dunant, John Harvey and Peter Lovesey. Others are welcome to contend that certain CWA nominees are not crime/detection/mystery, but I think that I will adopt the view that a CWA commendation confers notability per se, and that these books are worthy of small articles. Whether they are recognised as 'crime' by Wikipedia is perhaps neither here nor there. Grubstreet (talk) 20:53, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

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Puzo "expert" needed

Hi all

Are there any Mario Puzo "experts" out there ?

There is a problem with some articles calling some of his novels "the Godfather trilogy"

It is possible that there are just the three novels as already stated - The Godfather, The Sicilian and Omerta - but these are also described as - The Godfather, The Don and Omerta.

It is also possible that there should be four in the series - The Godfather, The Don, The Sicilian and Omerta

In some of the infoboxes the novels by other authors are also counted in the series and I cannot think how that is possible. If Puzo did not write them how can they be included in the series. I assume these would be "spinoffs"

Can anyone help calrify the issue ?

Thanks...Chaosdruid (talk) 10:23, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

There are two existing novels called 'The Godfather Returns' and 'The Godfather's Revenge'. They were not written by Puzo but are sequels to the original Godfather novel. They are of poor quality but that is original research on my part. I hope this helps. Lots42 (talk) 07:32, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

Stub tagging and out of date assessments

Recently I have been auto-tagging articles about novels which have been assessed as stubs by WPNovels, some of the assessments of these pages are out of date, please help sort the articles and screen for out of date assessments at Category:Novel stubs, Thank you, Sadads (talk) 15:50, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Crime fiction task force articles have been selected for the Wikipedia 0.8 release

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New article on novel Donkey Punch

• Donkey Punch (novel)

I've created this new article. If you've got additional input for secondary sources, please feel free to suggest them at the article's talk page, I'd really appreciate it. :) Cheers, — Cirt (talk) 18:19, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

Self publisher adding unverifiable books to Henry Abner page

I've requested help for this on the main wiki help desk, but I thought I'd raise the issue here as well.

I don't use wikipedia much so I don't really know what to do with this problem.

On the page of crime author Henry Abner, a 'publisher' (which appears to be operating through a self-publisher, and only promotes a single book) keeps trying to add the one book that they publish, 'Relativity'. There's no reliable external source for this book having been the work of this author, and the author never worked in this genre (science fiction). That publisher's account also only exists to edit the Henry Abner page.

There appears to be a conflict of interest going on, as well as unverifiable information being added, but I don't really know how to take it from here. Would anyone be willing to help? 2A02:C7D:8E4E:2E00:108E:3F41:726:8219 (talk) 10:45, 8 July 2017 (UTC)

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Looking for one book.

Hello. I am Looking for one book. I only remember the beginning of the piece. Some guy found a derelict computer, sat down at it and started doing something, and then he saw a man with a gun walk up to the desk, they looked at each other in silence for a while, then the guy mechanically pressed the Enter button and the man shot him back. The work was read in the 1990s or very early 2000s. The piece appeared no later than the 1990s (probably earlier). I also remember that the guy was doing something enthusiastically on the computer: at first he typed without looking at the screen, but the message on the computer monitor made him do his work more slowly and carefully. The phrases went something like this. The message on the computer screen made him work more carefully. Behind the desk stood a man with a gun in his hand. The guy had never seen a real gun, except in the movies, but he knew immediately what it was. The guy's hand dropped mechanically to the Enter button, and the same second the black muzzle of the gun burst into flames, ending his life. Thank you in advance. Vyacheslav84 (talk) 06:59, 8 January 2023 (UTC)