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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by David Fuchs via FACBot (talk) 1 July 2024 [1].

George Floyd (American football)

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Nominator(s): Therapyisgood (talk) 15:18, 21 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Proudly nominating this article for FAC. Instead of PR, I'm hoping an England or UK-based editor can take over where TRM left off before the last FAC was archived. Therapyisgood (talk) 15:18, 21 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Pinging everyone who commented at the first two FACs: @Sdkb, Buidhe, Nikkimaria, Jimfbleak, Mike Christie, and The Rambling Man:. Therapyisgood (talk) 02:12, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Missed some: @Kavyansh.Singh and AryKun:. Therapyisgood (talk) 02:13, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Image review - pass

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The article uses 2 images ([2] and [3]) from old newspapers from 1977 and 1981. Apparently, the images were published without a copyright notices next to them, which could mean that they are in public domain in the US. These two images were already present during the first FA nomination, where Buidhe raised concerns that there may be a general copyright notice for the newspapers as a whole that covers the images. @Buidhe: has that concern been resolved? Phlsph7 (talk) 09:04, 25 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't recall. (t · c) buidhe 15:50, 25 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the timely response. I'm not an expert so I'll probably have to ask at the notice board.
@Therapyisgood: I had a look at the specific newspaper pages on which these images appear and I did not see any copyright notices. From what I understand from the previous image review, you had a look through the newspapers and the other pages did not contain any relevant copyright notices either, is that correct? Phlsph7 (talk) 08:01, 26 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Phlsph7: Yes, that is correct. If someone wants to go through all the pages and finds something different from what I found, that would be OK, but I went through all of them and found no copyright notices to speak of. Thank you for bringing this up. Therapyisgood (talk) 23:32, 26 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It seems like there is a strong case for them being public domain but since I'm not an expert and the issue was not resolved in the last image review, I asked at the noticeboard just to be on the safe side. Phlsph7 (talk) 08:22, 27 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As long as we can say confidently that there was no copyright notice in the newspaper, we should be fine. Typically, it would be either on the front page or in the masthead. - Jmabel | Talk 14:15, 27 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Just a note that the photos seem to be agency photos of sorts - File:George Floyd playing for Hernando High School, 1977.jpg is marked in the source as a "Tribune Photo" while File:George Floyd Latches Onto the Ball.jpg is sourced to "Herald-Leader". As omitting the notice from comparatively few copies in a low circulation newspaper does not necessarily void the copyright claim, some more research may be needed. Felix QW (talk) 19:44, 27 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Felix QW: I get your point. What kind of research do you have in mind so we can reasonably exclude this possibility? Phlsph7 (talk) 07:49, 28 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I am not sure, since I am not an expert on the subtle points of American copyright formalities – hence the cautious phrasing as a "note". I just always avoid uploading agency images under a no-notice rationale in the first place. Felix QW (talk) 14:53, 29 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Phlsph7: I cut the images altogether. Therapyisgood (talk) 23:26, 29 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sorry to see the images gone. I'm not sure that this step is strictly speaking required but given the controversy here, we are on the safe side this way. Phlsph7 (talk) 07:25, 1 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

PCN02WPS

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Comments to follow. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 23:24, 29 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Lead and infobox

  • Recommend switching the way the links to the Jets' seasons are displayed: I think including "the team's" in the link to the 1982 season and "Jets'" in the '84 link make it more clear that you're linking to their season rather than the overall NFL season.
  • "EKU" is used without any explanation; of course, I know what you're referring to but it would be helpful since the full name "Eastern Kentucky University" isn't given in the lead and therefore it might be a little harder for unfamiliar readers to make that connection
  • "into the College Football Hall of Fame, and the hall of fame" → remove comma
  • "and Hernando High School; in 2009, EKU named" → Recommend splitting into two different sentences

Early life

  • "attended Hernando High School, and played " → remove comma
  • "Hernando finished as Gulf Coast (GC) Conference champions" → is the "GC" abbreviation used in sources? I find it very strange to exclude the last "C" since many well-known athletic conferences include it (ACC, SEC, MWC, AAC, etc.)
  • "Leopards' punt returner, and played on offense" → remove comma
  • "had a seventy-two yard punt" → add hyphen between "two" and "yard"
  • "during the season, and finished the year" → remove comma

Collegiate career

  • I was going to recommend using |upright for the image in this section but, and this will sound stupid, I can't find the picture in the code. It doesn't show up in any individual section so I have no idea how it's there. Some explanation would be helpful (more so for my curiosity/confusion than anything).
  • "Against Jackson State in November, had sixteen tackles" → missing word (he had sixteen tackles)
  • "win the 1979 NCAA Division I-AA football championship" → recommend another link to the championship game since it's only previously linked in the lead
  • "to the Second-team" → does "Second" need caps here?
  • "composed of the second-best players in the conference" → "the second-best players in the conference" seems a very ambiguous explanation; recommend "the second-best players at every position..."
  • "fourth-most on the Colonels, and he led the team" → Oxford comma used here but not with "sixteen tackles, one interception and one fumble recovery" - either way is fine, just should be consistent
  • "sixteen seconds left in the game as EKU won 24–20" → sounds like EKU won the game at the same time he picked off the pass with 16 seconds left, recommend changing "as" to something else
  • "against the Broncos" → "against Boise State" (update note at the end of the sentence too)
  • "Floyd was in the school's record book no fewer than eight times" → is the exact number not known?

Professional career

  • "of the 1982 NFL draft, with the 107th" → remove comma
  • "John Rowe of The Record described Floyd as a "hard hitter" in July" → this sentence sticks out just a bit; was this in context of his mini-camp/training camp/offseason performance with NYJ or just a review of him as a college player?
  • "Floyd appeared at both safety spots (both free safety and strong safety)" → repetitive use of "both", recommend nixing the second
  • "Bill Verigan of the New York Daily News" → is there a reason "New York" isn't italicized? The publication's WP article seems to give the whole title italics
  • "late October, and became a starter" → remove comma
  • "Paul Needell of the New York Daily News" → ditto as above

Personal life

  • Lots of "Floyd" in the first few sentences; most of these can be changed to "He"
  • "major at EKU, and wanted to teach" → remove comma
  • "He married his wife in March 1983" → Any chance her name could be found?
  • "As of 2023, Floyd is a defensive backs coach for Conner High School in Kentucky" → the previous sentence says he is employed at Boone County; does this mean he is employed at Conner too?

That's all I've got for prose. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 00:05, 30 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@PCN02WPS: comments responded to. Therapyisgood (talk) 19:49, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Nice, happy to support. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 15:41, 8 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Coordinator comment

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More than three weeks in and just the single general support. Unless this nomination makes significant further progress towards a consensus to promote over the next three or four days I am afraid that it is liable to be archived. Gog the Mild (talk) 16:59, 14 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Harper J. Cole

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  • Floyd attended Hernando High School, where he was selected for The Tampa Tribune's all-area football team in all three of his varsity years, composed of the best high school football players in the area. I'm not sure you need the last part of this sentence "composed of..." as it contains nothing that cannot be deduced from the rest of the sentence.
  • Also with "The Tampa Tribune's" you aren't italicising the apostrophe and the s (this happens a few times during the article). Unless there's a Wikipedia convention to the contrary, it seems like the whole word should be italicised, even if part of it isn't wikilinked.
  • I believe the convention is listed at Template:'s: "Using this template avoids wikicoding issues that may occur when 's is used after a italicized word e.g. USS Ticonderoga's. It includes inline CSS "padding-left:0.1em;" to provide some separation from the previous letter. This prevents the italicized text from crashing into the apostrophe" Therapyisgood (talk) 01:37, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • After missing the entire 1983 Jets' season While technically correct, it isn't standard to put a possessive apostrophe on "Jets" in this context (as indeed, the article itself does not).
  • during the 1985 NFL preseason, where teams played exhibition games before their regular seasons began. No need to explain what the preseason is; it's tangential to the article, and curious readers can always follow the wikilink.
  • Not done, though I'm open to hearing others' opinions on this outside of WP:NFL. Also I disagree with your assessment "curious readers can always follow the wikilink" per MOS:NOFORCELINK ("Use a link when appropriate, but as far as possible do not force a reader to use that link to understand the sentence. The text needs to make sense to readers who cannot follow links. Users may print articles or read offline, and Wikipedia content may be encountered in republished form, often without links.")
  • the hall of fame classes of EKU and Hernando High School Usually a hall of fame class refers to a specific year (class of 2024 being the players inducted in 2024, for instance). If you're not giving a year, then simply "the halls of fame of EKU and Hernando High School" would be standard.
    Changed as suggested. Therapyisgood (talk) 01:03, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • and made The Tampa Tribune's (TTT's) all-area football team, composed of the best high school football players in the area. As above, the explanation seems unnecessary.
  • a seventy-two-yard punt return Touchdown lengths are always written with numbers ("72-yard").
  • he earned TTT Hernando County Player of the Week for the performance on September 30 No need to add the date here; it adds confusion as to whether we're still talking about the game with North Marion.
  • named to TTT all-area team Either "TTT's all-area team" or "the TTT all-area team."
  • Before the 1980 season, OVC football head coaches voted Floyd to the preseason All-OVC Team. No need to specify the preseason as you've already said it was before the season.
  • as of 2020, he holds or ties five school records Can we get more recent than 2020?
  • In an article about the Jets' training camp Wikilink training camp here, as it's the first time it's used (you're currently linking it in the next sentence).
  • The Jets waived Floyd in October 1985 (an NFL process in which a team releases a player and makes him available to all other NFL teams) No need to explain the term "waived" as you have it wikilinked.
  • Not done per MOS:NOFORCELINK ("Use a link when appropriate, but as far as possible do not force a reader to use that link to understand the sentence. The text needs to make sense to readers who cannot follow links. Users may print articles or read offline, and Wikipedia content may be encountered in republished form, often without links.")
  • He taught physical education for eighteen years at Bellevue and Boone County High Schools and, as of 2020, works as an assistant principal at Boone County High School. As of 2023, Floyd is a defensive backs coach for Conner High School in Kentucky. Would his post at Conner High School not imply that he no longer has the Boone County job, or could he work for both?

Harper J. Cole (talk) 16:25, 26 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Therapyisgood:? Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs talk 11:13, 31 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@David Fuchs: I'm working on them, albeit very late. Therapyisgood (talk) 01:45, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Harper J. Cole:, thanks for the review, comments responded. Therapyisgood (talk) 01:57, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Therapyisgood Thanks! With regard to writing the touchdown lengths as numbers; if I'm honest, it was my instinctive reaction that they're written that way. I did find this from AP, though. [4] Also, I searched for "seventy-two-yard touchdown" on newspapers.com for the years 2000-2024 and got 3 results, while "72-yard touchdown" gets 14,997 results.
I've no objections to the other non-changes. Harper J. Cole (talk) 19:26, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Harper J. Cole: now changed. Therapyisgood (talk) 20:56, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks; I Support nomination. Harper J. Cole (talk) 15:37, 6 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Source review

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Little to say here, but I wonder what makes www.mydigitalpublication.com a reliable source? Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 10:42, 9 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Jo-Jo Eumerus: thank you for the source review. mydigitalpublication.com is just a host for The Eastern Magazine. The Eastern Magazine is an alumnus publication of Eastern Kentucky University. As for the magazine itself, it had a staff and a President in the year cited. I added another bit from the magazine to the article. Other than that, I can't speak to reliability, but it seems reliable. Therapyisgood (talk) 14:07, 9 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by SafariScribe

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  • This line in the Early life section, "George Floyd Jr. was born on December 21, 1960, in Tampa, Florida, and grew up in Brooksville, Florida." Can Florida be reduced to one. It looks repetitive to readers.
  • In the Early life section, you didn't leave a note of what Hernando Leopards are. Maybe add a note connecting it to Hernando High School (Florida). It may be late but it's important.
@SafariScribe: thank you for the comments, were you planning on leaving a longer review? Therapyisgood (talk) 00:10, 12 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Not really. Anyways you did a great job there. I made a few changes to the article including excluding "As of 2020, he works as a vice principal at Boone County High School in Kentucky." It wasn't explained well in the lead in the sense that it isn't necessary. Why not merge the two paragraphs of the lead to one. It's will improve readability sas they both seems to contain his awards/honors. Also, regrouping is important especially in the "personal life section", but that one wouldn't be a problem. Kudos! Safari ScribeEdits! Talk! 02:48, 12 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I have read the article and saw it was written well. Support from me though I would love to see images illustrated. Safari ScribeEdits! Talk! 02:49, 12 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose from RoySmith

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My initial impression is that this is fundamentally a non-notable marginal player who only gets an article because of our absurdly inclusive WP:NSPORTS guideline. I accept that this is the wrong forum to raise complaints about NSPORTS, but I mention this because it leads to groping for trivial material to fill up the space.

We've got an entire section (Early life) filled with details about Floyd's High School athletic career. WP:FACR requires that the article stays focused on the main topic without going into unnecessary detail. The main topic is stated in the first sentence: "an American former professional football player". How is all this stuff about his high school play not "unnecessary detail"? What is it about Floyd that makes his high school career so interesting that it's worth devoting almost as much space to as is devoted to his professional career?

Contrast with (to pick a few players who were active back when I followed the sport), for example Phil Simms: the entirely of what it has to say about Simms's high school career is Simms was the quarterback of the Trojans of Southern High School in Louisville and graduated in 1974. Eli Manning has all of four sentences about Manning's high school play. I assume Franco Harris played high school football, yet his article only mentions what school he went to and says nothing about playing football. Troy Aikman mentions the high school he attended and that he was All-State. And looking at a couple of football FAs, Otto Graham says nothing about high school, and Billy Joe Tolliver has one short paragraph. If that level of high-school coverage made sense for those articles, what's different about Floyd that it's worth devoting almost 400 words?

I also have deep concerns about this meeting WP:FACR's "prose is engaging and of a professional standard". Even allowing for the fact that I don't find football interesting, there's very little here that I would call truly "engaging". Much of it is OK, but it's kind of a bland recitation of facts rather than telling a compelling story. Some of it is downright stilted. The "Personal life" section is particularly bad in this respect. It's a random jumble of unconnected facts. The prose itself is a succession of short choppy sentences; the antithesis of "engaging".

@RoySmith: Hello, while I respect your comments there's not much I can do about them. I disagree with your assessment of Floyd as a NSPORTS marginal player. He was inducted into the College Football Hall of Fame, for one, and for another he was covered in several publications in the 1980s and 1970s. That aside, per WP:FA?, section 1b, the article must be comprehensive and neglect no major facts. When a biography subject has received major coverage in several newspapers for his high school play, I think neglecting this important part of his career would run asunder of 1b (and the 1c "well-researched" criterion). Additionally the FA? you quote is 4, which says "It stays focused on the main topic without going into unnecessary detail and uses summary style where appropriate". If you could give me specific examples of what you consider "unnecessary detail" that would be helpful. The articles you cite are for players whose career were significantly longer than Floyd's. It would make sense that their high school sections are less in terms of coverage because they are less important to the professional careers, and more documentation has been covered about them. As far as the lead goes, I have cut a sentence on his high school play. If you have anything else to add. I will work on the "personal life" section in the upcoming days. Therapyisgood (talk) 18:54, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You're arguing that the other players did more as pros so it makes sense to not cover what they did in high school. How is that any different from saying this guy didn't do much as a pro, so we need to cover his high school career in order to have something to say about him? It only took me a few minutes of searching to find tons of coverage of Phil Simms's high school career in the local papers. Does anybody care that Simms hit Mike Burke with a 12-yard touchdown pass, leading Southern High to a 13-6 victory over Stuart High? Of course not. So why would anybody care that Floyd got two interceptions in a game against Inverness Citrus? Or that he had a 72 yard punt return against Lake Weir?
Looking through "Early life", it's almost entirely cited to The Tampa Tribune and Tampa Bay Times. These are the local papers covering the local high school. It's obligatory coverage. I would expect that anybody who makes it to the NFL was a stand-out athlete in high school. These are the kids who are faster and stronger than the rest of their age group and will excel in whatever sport they play in, so it's not surprising he also played basketball. I'd be surprised if you could find many NFL players who didn't play multiple sports in high school and were good at all of them at that level. I could see covering some of the most significant highlights (like making the all-star team), but if you devote more than a couple of sentences to this, it's just padding. RoySmith (talk) 19:44, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@RoySmith: can you take a look now? Therapyisgood (talk) 00:40, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Just acknowledging that I've seen this, but let me spend some time thinking before I reply. I'll probably come back tomorrow. RoySmith (talk) 01:40, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I searched for other NFL player FAs and looked at a few: Scott Zolak, William Wurtenburg, Jim Thorpe, Billy Joe Tolliver, Otto Graham, Chris Gragg, Tyrone Wheatley. Most make no mention of the player's high school career, and those that do generally have just a couple of sentences about some outstanding achievement. Tyrone Wheatley is the only one with significant coverage of high school and most of that is talking about his non-football sports (All-American in track, and also being on the basketball team). The parts that are about his high school football note some awards and only mentions his performance in a single specific game. By comparison, you go into much greater detail about substantiallly less significant events.
The rest of the article similarly digs deep for minor achievements. Honorable mention for defensive player of the week? Eighth most number of tackles one year and fourth most another? A single fumble recovery? Assistant coach for a high school team after leaving the NFL? Made all-conference, but only as second team? Perhaps some of these things really are noteworthy, but the overall impression I get is that of grasping for positive things to say.
And, my apologies for the harshness of this, but the "Personal life" section, while improved in organization, is still very far from "engaging and of a professional standard". Most of it is short simple declarative sentences, which gives a monotonous feel. Things like "accomplished his teaching aspirations" is just fluff. Awkward repetition ("he wanted to join ... wanted to play ... wanted to teach"). Saying "he married his wife" is almost comical. Who else (discounting the possibility of a husband) would he have married? Surprisingly, you don't tell us her name (although to be fair, I thought I saw somewhere in a previous FAC that you had originally done so and got talked out of it by a reviewer).
While I'm on the topic of prior reviews, I see you also got talked into "Hernando high school team, nicknamed the Leopards". Just saying "the Hernando Leopards" was fine. Everybody knows what that construct means. I can't blame you too much for acquiescing to this bad advice, but knowing when to push back on bad advice is useful.
It pains me to say this but I'm sorry, I just don't see any path to supporting this short of a major rewrite. RoySmith (talk) 14:36, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
PS, I found the bit about not giving his wife's name; it was in Talk:George Floyd (American football)/GA1 RoySmith (talk) 14:39, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't agree that the personal life section is bad prose. As to his wife's name I didn't include it per WP:BLPNAME (see above), nor did I include his sister's or brother's name. As to the meat and potatoes of your complaint, I will look over the article and make appropriate changes in the days to come. I also disagree on the alleged blandness of the prose overall, and will leave it up to FAC coordinators to make that determination. Therapyisgood (talk) 17:22, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sorry, but reading just the personal life section, I agree with RoySmith. The prose in this section is not up to FA standard. Gog the Mild (talk) 21:14, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The three supports disagree, unfortunately. They wouldn't have supported if they thought the prose was not up to FA standards, so I'm not concerned with your assessment of the text. Additionally you have not given specifics on how the text could be improved, other than saying vaguely it's "bland". And no, I'm not rewriting the whole thing just because a wiki mod says he doesn't like it. Therapyisgood (talk) 01:26, 15 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose

Having seen the above I thought I'd look at the personal life section to see whether there were any issues or not, and it's clear that there are. Specifically:

Personal life
  • "high school, he wanted": there's a good rule of thumb about using the subject's name in a paragraph before using 'he'; doubly so for the first mention in a section.
  • "senior year in college, Floyd": Changing the above to 'Floyd' means this can now be changed to 'he'
  • "wanted to teach after graduation before being drafted.": this is a bit ambiguous. As it's written it means he actively wanted to 1. Graduate, then 2. Teach, finally 3. Get drafted. Is that actually what the source says, or does it just say he 'wanted to teach after graduation', but that instead he was drafted.
  • "Floyd accomplished his teaching aspirations after his selection by the Jets:" This sentence could do with a bit of a rewrite, partly by deleting the quoted bit. The second part of the sentence says much of the same thing, so there's no point in repeating it.
  • "Floyd picked up coaching": 'picked up' fails MOS:IDIOM to my eye: "Floyd was employed as an assistant coach at ..." would be far better
  • The next two sentences are a bit of a mess, jumping round the dateline. Better to work through chronologically and make it clear that he has two jobs (and as it's now 2024, it would be better to check the sources to see if these can be updated.
  • "He has": New paragraph, repeat the name
  • "brother, and married his wife" bit of a comma splice that should be sorted.
  • The less said about he "married his wife" the better. I think it's too much of a stretch of BLPNAME to omit her name, but it's editorial discretion, so it's down to you and any other page stewards. Having said that, several people in this review have said the omission is a strange one.

I'll go over the rest of the article shortly to see on the prose there, but this short section isn't up to FA standard as it stands. As it's fairly short, it shouldn't take much to sort it. - SchroCat (talk) 14:38, 15 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@SchroCat: comments responded to. Therapyisgood (talk) 00:48, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That’s immeasurably better now, and I’ve struck the oppose. I made one further change: it’s just a suggestion, which I think reads better, but if you think there’s an issue with it, or prefer the previous version, feel free to revert. The rest of the article reads well enough too. I agree that there is a little too much emphasis on his college career, but as it is the background to his inclusion in professional sports (and therefore the basis for his notability), I’ll support. - SchroCat (talk) 05:02, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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