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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 18:39, 7 October 2010 [1].

Daniel Sedin

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Daniel Sedin (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Nominator(s): Orlandkurtenbach (talk) 06:05, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This article was up for FAC a couple months ago, but was not passed due to a lack of review. It is extremely similar, in many parts almost identical, to Henrik Sedin's article, which was passed as a FA about a month prior to Daniel's first FAC. My hope is that the article gets more attention this time around. It is an extensive article that covers virtually every aspect of his career. Thanks in advance to any reviewer who takes the time to have a look! Orlandkurtenbach (talk) 06:05, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comments - Support: Good read, just a few minor things and then a support.
    • Under "Vancouver Canucks" - "He suffered the injury after being hit by a slapshot by teammate Alex Edler." Can one of those 'by's be changed, maybe 'from teammate Alex Edler'.
    • "All three goals were assisted by his brother, helping Henrik pass Alexander Ovechkin for the Art Ross Trophy" - clicking will tell you that the Ross is for the league's top scorer, but maybe a mention in the text would make this page itself more clear.
    • "Meeting the Chicago Blackhawks the following round, his production decreased to four points as the Canucks were eliminated in six games" - Possibly 'Against the Chicago....' rather than 'Meeting'.
    • Awards - some of these aren't mentioned in the text with a reference (that I could find), so a reference in the table would be good. Canada Hky (talk) 15:59, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sources comments

  • The long footnote is uncited. Such text is subject to the same rules as the article's main prose and must be sourced. You might also consider whether a general reader can be reasonably expected to understand this: "...; acquired the Tampa Bay Lightning's first overall pick for the fourth, 75th and 88th overall picks; and acquired the Atlanta Thrashers' second overall pick for the first overall pick and a conditional third-round choice in 2000." This is presumably a desciption of some sort of trading or dealing, but it needs a great deal of clarification.
  • Ref 51: What is the nature of this source. If online, why no link? If a print source, in what form? If "NHL" is National Hockey League, it should be spelt out as per other refs to this source.
  • Ref 81: Is Covers.com an appropriate source for the cited information?
    • When Henrik Sedin's article went through FAC, this same issue came up, however it was eventually deemd acceptable. There's an about page on the Covers website mentioning that the Covers Media Group has been referenced by such reliable publications as USA Today, New York Times, etc). If that doesn't suffice though, there is another reference for that same sentence in the article, so I believe I could just remove the Covers one.
  • I have not checked out the Swedish language sources.

Otherwise sources look OK Brianboulton (talk) 20:33, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Generally a good read. I'm not a hockey person at all, but I followed most of this apart from a few things I've noted. Just a few other minor things so far.

  • "The Sedins were considered top prospects for the 1999 NHL Entry Draft. Rated as the top European prospects,": Repetition of prospects, could be rephrased.
  • "two options to circumvent the usual NHL draft process, allowing them to play together..." As phrased, it reads a little like there is a rule which specifically forbids draft picks playing together, but as I understand from the rest of the article, it is just that the same team would not have consecutive picks. It may be better to rephrase this to explain that they were unlikely to be picked due to the the usual drafting process. Or something similar.
  • Further to Brianbolton above, it is confusing to read the note, but I suspect you've done all you can. However, it must still have a reference.
  • "second in team": Is this a hockey expression, or should there be "the" in there?
  • "The two brothers played on a line" and later "Canucks' third line": Sorry, don't understand!
  • "against Dan Cloutier against the Tampa Bay Lightning": Against...against needs improving. And presumably Cloutier was in goal?
  • "on a pass from the corner boards to the slot, the goal tied the game at 5–5 with 1:13 left to go in a 6–5 regulation win" First sentence which lost me. Slot? Regulation win presumably is a win in regulation time. And the time needs minutes after it.
  • "He became the first rookie to reach 20 goals on the season when he scored on March 21, 2001, in a 1–1 tie against the Columbus Blue Jackets.": Repetition of rookie from prev sentence and does this mean first rookie ever or just in that season? And the next sentence is a little clumsy and could perhaps be merged with this one.
  • "Canucks were swept": A bit jargony but I'm not too bothered.
  • Maybe say who votes on the Calder Memorial trophy: i.e. coaches, journalists, fans...
  • "In his proceding second NHL season..." Proceding? I think "following" or just leave the word out.
  • Possibly I'm missing something, but I can't see any refs for his stats in the season. E.g. "With 23 assists, he had 32 points overall. The following season in 2002–03, Daniel continued his point-scoring pace with 14 goals and 17 assists" seems uncited.
  • "The trio were dubbed the "Mattress Line" (two twins and a King) and formed the Canucks' second scoring unit": Dubbed by who? And what is a second scoring unit?
  • Minor detail, and feel free to ignore it: I'm just curious. In hockey, I assume players are awarded points in the rankings for assists.
  • "His breakout season was sparked..." What is a breakout season, it seems jargony and "sparked" seems a little too informal.
  • "the Sedins' ascent as leaders on the team": Should it be ascent to?
  • "He paced the team...": Jargon?
  • " four overtime goals..." Would "four goals in overtime" read better?
  • Could a word or two more be added to mention the team's performance in each season?
  • "as he missed the playoffs with the Canucks...": He personally missed them but the team made them, or the team missed them?
  • NHL's First and Second Star of the Week: Link?

More to follow. --Sarastro1 (talk) 08:52, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Addressed all the above issues as best I could. I could not find a reference for exactly who came up with the Mattress Line nickname. As these things usually go, it was either a broadcaster or someone in the media, but if it's a big deal to have it in there without a reference of such, it could be easily removed. In regards to citing season stats, I haven't actually found it in common practice to do so. I've passed a couple other NHL players' articles into FA and neither required reference for stats. However, this can also be taken care of if it seems to be a big issue. Orlandkurtenbach (talk) 23:10, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Don't worry about the mattress line attribution. Personally, I think such an extensive collection of stats needs referencing just like anything else. --Sarastro1 (talk) 09:43, 27 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

More comments

  • "third in tournament-scoring behind Henrik and Milan Kraft": Sounds clumsy. What about simply "third highest scorer in the tournament behind..."
  • "At the World Championships, Daniel and Henrik both recorded five points as the youngest players on the squad": Perhaps reinforce that this is the senior championship. And "as" does not make sense: the two elements are not dependent. Their scores are not connected to their age. What about "At the senior/mens World Championship, Daniel and Henrik were the youngest players on the squad and recorded five points."
  • "Sweden again did not medal...": I don't consider medal a verb; I would much prefer "achive a medal" or "manage a medal", but I won't insist.
  • Playing style: All good, but any comments on their effectiveness, judgements, opinions, etc. And anything about why he is a good goal-scorer, or how he is able to do it?
  • The career statistics section has no ref, which I understand is standard in hockey articles. However, I think it needs a ref just to prove that you haven't made it up (which I'm sure you didn't!)

I don't see any major problems here, although I think parts may need a copy-edit. I understood most of it, which impressed me as I know very little about the sport, and it was readable. Some of the season summaries dragged, but I think that is unavoidable and not a huge problem. --Sarastro1 (talk) 20:57, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Let me know when you have finished tweaking. --Sarastro1 (talk) 09:43, 27 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comments –

  • Lead: "he has appeared in two European Junior Championships, two World Junior Championships, four World Championships." Missing "and" after last comma?
  • Modo Hockey: No need for two Brynas IF links in this section.
  • Vancouver Canucks: "Canucks general manager Mike Gillis travelled to Sweden to visit the Sedins, where they agreed...". The order of this seems a bit off. Is "Gillis visited the Sedins in Sweden, where they agreed..." closer to what the intent is?
  • International play: "in the corresponding NHL season, he was third among Swedish players in points despite missing 19 games". But I thought he led the league in scoring. Is this at the time of the Olympics?
It was his twin brother Henrik that led the league in points "three goals were assisted by his brother, helping Henrik pass Alexander Ovechkin for the Art Ross Trophy as the league's leading point-scorer."--Mo Rock...Monstrous (talk) 13:19, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks very much for pointing those out. I've gone ahead and corrected them. Orlandkurtenbach (talk) 08:23, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Fair support Weak oppose: The article overall is great, but I found many issues with prose and overlinking. After these are resolved, I'll probably support:
  • Found way too much blue: line (twice), Modo Hockey (twice), season, vice principal, wing, prospects, penalty shot, empty net, Todd Bertuzzi (twice in fifth paragraph of Canucks), game winning goal (which should be "game-winning goal"), talent agency, NHL draft (three links spread across different terms), Wiktionary links to "playmaker" and "cycle", bachelor's degree, psychology, various teams are being linked more than once, and I haven't checked player names other than Bertuzzi. There is likely much more. Also, first use of Sweden is not linked, second is.
    I've removed the double links throughout the body of the article. I kept double links that are first linked in the lead though. I distincly remember reading somewhere that links in the lead are an exception for double linking, but if I'm wrong, I can remove those as well. In regards to linking such terms as penalty shot, game winning goal, playmaker and cycle: I think these qualify as jargon, specific to hockey or sports in general, that the average reader would find difficult to understand, thus making the linking necessary. Orlandkurtenbach (talk) 09:53, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Problems still stand. Empty net isn't jargon, game-winning goal is very straightforward and not jargon (doesn't link to a dedicated article either, and still isn't spelled correctly), NHL Draft is linked the second time not the first, as is Sweden and Detroit Red Wings, and some names are still linked twice (use the search function, CTRL + F, to find them all). EricLeb01 (Page | Talk) 01:06, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Fair enough. I removed the links to empty net and game-winning (also added that hyphen). Linked Detroit Red Wings the first time and removed the second time. I linked the first mention of Sweden in the article, but kept the second one, as it is a link to the Swedish national team, rathe than the country. I changed the wording in the prose though to make the difference evident though,. I also removed double links throughout the article for Naslund, Crawford and Burke. Orlandkurtenbach (talk) 07:55, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm not the most experienced with BLPs, but shouldn't the subject be referred to by his last name (unless, of course, Henrik is mentioned in the sentence)?
    I was not sure of this either. Standard BLPs do in fact refer by last name, but I thought this was somewhat of an exception. Because Daniel and Henrik's careers are so interwtined, they have always been referred to by their first names in the media to more easily distinguish the two. Henrik's article was passed through FAC with the same style, so I thought it'd be okay for Daniel's as well. Orlandkurtenbach (talk) 09:53, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "...in the Le Mat Trophy Finals in 1999 and 2000; they lost both times." -> Is "; they lost both times" really necessary? It makes the sentence awkward.
    I still wanted to make sure it was mentioned that they did not win, so I rearranged the sentence a little bit instead. Hope it looks ok. Orlandkurtenbach (talk) 09:53, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Perfect from here. EricLeb01 (Page | Talk) 01:06, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "...and has led the team in scoring in 2006–07 and 2008–09." -> Why are you hiding the trophy name? Also, it's linked-to once again in the sixth paragraph of the Canucks section.
    My rationale behind that was that the Cyrus H. McLean is not a major trophy at all, but a team award. I thought I'd leave the specification for the body, allowing the lead to be more of a summary. If it's a major issue though, I'll change that. Orlandkurtenbach (talk) 09:53, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    I think it would be best to clarify and de-link the second usage. EricLeb01 (Page | Talk) 01:06, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Done. Orlandkurtenbach (talk) 07:55, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "...as a top player on the club..." -> on or in?
    Changed. Orlandkurtenbach (talk) 09:53, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "He recorded a four-point game ... in the deciding game..." -> Consider rewording to "He recorded four points ... in the deciding game", if it doesn't change the meaning.
    Done. Orlandkurtenbach (talk) 09:53, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The 2000–01 NHL season was Daniel's first season for the Canucks." -> You mean with the Canucks?
    Done. Orlandkurtenbach (talk) 09:53, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In the game, Daniel and Henrik became the fourth pair of twins to have played in the NHL." -> I don't know how to explain it much better than this, but it sounds like you're implying that that was the only game they "became the fourth pair of twins to have played". I think that detail should be placed elsewhere, or rephrase the sentence.
    Sorry, I'm actually unsure what the concern is. I removed "In the game" if that helps. Orlandkurtenbach (talk) 09:53, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    It's fine, your change fixed it perfectly. EricLeb01 (Page | Talk) 01:06, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "He became the first rookie in 2000–01 to reach 20 goals..." -> Beginning with this sentence, three consecutive sentences begin with "He".
    Changed the second sentence in that sequence. Orlandkurtenbach (talk) 09:53, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    I still take issue with the overuse of "he" in such a short span, but at least its transparent now. EricLeb01 (Page | Talk) 01:06, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "...as Henrik had been named to the First Team" -> Is "First Team" supposed to be capitalised?
    "First Team" is intended to be short for "First All-Star Team" in this instance, which I thought was proper enough to be capitalized. Orlandkurtenbach (talk) 09:53, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    The article for the All-Star team confirms your claims, so I suppose it is. EricLeb01 (Page | Talk) 01:06, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "...many sequences with Henrik off the cycle." -> While the word "cycle" is linked to a Wiktionary entry (as noted above), I think this sentence should be clearer for readers not familiar with hockey terms.
    I'll live with the links. EricLeb01 (Page | Talk) 01:06, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • The Vancouver Canucks section takes up my entire screen (1920 x 1080), which probably means it should be trimmed or separated into sub-sections. Just my two cents.
    I could divide it chronologically: ie. "2000-04" and "from 2004"? Orlandkurtenbach (talk) 07:55, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Yeah, that's along the lines of what I would have suggested. Go for it. EricLeb01 (Page | Talk) 21:06, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Maybe I'm just being picky, but the final two paragraphs of the International play section are consistently following a "Daniel participated here... Sweden loses... Daniel made this many goals" pattern. It's sort of bland, but again, it might be just me.
  • Is the Transactions section necessary when the information is present in the prose?
    It's part of WP:Hockey's MoS, but I don't object to removing it if it's a huge problem. Orlandkurtenbach (talk) 07:55, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    If WP:Hockey agrees, then I don't have an objection to it. EricLeb01 (Page | Talk) 21:06, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I also copy-edited a bit as I went along. EricLeb01 (Page | Talk) 23:27, 4 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Some issues still stand. Penultimate suggestion doesn't have to be addressed to get my support. EricLeb01 (Page | Talk) 01:06, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Still one issue, but the main reason for me not completely supporting is that, as noted by my second-to-last suggestion, I don't find the prose to be as fluid as I would like it to be. I don't know if it's just because it's a sports bio, but nonetheless. Regardless, I lend you a fair amount of my support, and I will second a quick look-over by a fresh pair of eyes. Good luck! EricLeb01 (Page | Talk) 21:06, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Prose not comfortable yet.

  • There are high-value links in the opening sentence. Could you unlink "Sweden", since it's hardly a mystery, and Ornsk ... whatever it is will be the one readers will click on. It will have a prominent link to the country article.
  • "helping the club to two consecutive appearances in the Le Mat Trophy Finals, where they lost both times in 1999 and 2000." This is odd: "two consecutive appearances in the Le Mat Trophy Finals, in 1999 and 2000, where they lost both times." Please remember that English has had all of those tags stripped away, so word order is a minefield.
  • Add "since" before "recorded"?
  • "Internationally, Daniel has competed for Swedish national team."???
  • "Barnett also suggested that either Henrik or Daniel opt out of the 1999 draft, in the hope that the same team that selected the first twin would select the other the following year." Remove "same", I think. But more important, can you go through the whole text and deal with the over-occurrence of "that"? The first one here can go. "hoping the same that", there goes the second.

Ah, needs a native speaker to copy-edit. Sorry to be uncool about it. Tony (talk) 13:16, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Image review issue:

  • File:DanielSedin2009.jpg: There is no record (in the "Original upload log" section) that McPherson released this image under the GNU Free Documentation License; perhaps he released it into the public domain or there was no release in the first place? Can an administrator look into the file history here and verify it (and update the "Original upload log" section on Commons)? Furthermore, how can we verify Matthew McPherson is Mcphersonm80? Jappalang (talk) 08:59, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • The original upload on ENWP was released both CC-BY-SA 3.0 and GFDL as a self-taken photograph. As to the latter question, WP:AGF would apply, IMNSHO. I would personally find it silly to have to verify every image I've uploaded. Resolute 01:10, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • If you had uploaded as Resolute (stating "own work" or in your accounts the name credited), no one would raise issues. If someone created an account HFaas65 and uploads photographs by Horst Faas, there is strong reason to be suspicious. In short, if a copyrighted photograph existed outside the project before the image's presence here, we should verify the nature of the work. Jappalang (talk) 22:48, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I don't quite follow the problem with the image here, but if it'll help move this FAC along, I can simply remove it from the article and replace with another one. Orlandkurtenbach (talk) 22:50, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The user has also uploaded File:Erik Ersberg.jpg, which gives a profile for Matthew McPherson at http://www.flickr.com/wattifoto. However, the profile does not say anything about whether Mcphersonm80 is Wattifoto aka Matthew McPherson. Wattifoto's photographs are all copyrighted (All rights reserved) and Flickr allows private photostreams. Hence, someone allowed access to a private photograph (or before it was made private) could upload to Wikipedia while claiming to be that Flickr user. The best way for a Flickr account and a Wikipedia editor to let us verify their identity is either through OTRS or to state their Wikipedia user identity on the Flickr profile. None of this is evident with Mcphersonm80, hence the suspicions. Jappalang (talk) 01:11, 7 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yet more comments

I did a full copyedit of the article on request, and have the following comments:

  • "The following season in 2002–03, Daniel continued his point-scoring pace with 14 goals and 17 assists." - I have no idea what this means. What "point-scoring pace" did he continue?
Clafiried this in the prose. Orlandkurtenbach (talk) 22:49, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Question for Tony1, as our resident language expert: Is it appropriate to mix first and last names like so: "He tied for third in team point-scoring with Todd Bertuzzi, behind Henrik and Näslund"? I realize that Henrik and Daniel sharing the same last name makes it difficult to differentiate between the two, but statements like this lead me to read both as last names.
Comment: I agree with you to a point, but with all the previous mentions of Henrik in the rest of the article should help with the differentiation and I think that a redundant calling as either Henrik Sedin or H. Sedin in these instances would be a detraction from the article. IMO--Mo Rock...Monstrous (talk) 03:06, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • The Star-of-the-Week awards seem out of place to me in the Awards table. They are really quite trivial in comparison to the others.
I agree to some extent, but I'd like to keep them in there to keep it uniform with Henrik Sedin's article, which passed FA with those star-of-the-week mentions. Orlandkurtenbach (talk) 22:49, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • As a personal opinion, I prefer if all of the stats tables are the same width. See Theoren Fleury#Career statistics for an example. (I also think my awards table looks better in that article, but again, matter of personal opinion)
Fixed

Hope this helps! Resolute 02:04, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Done. Orlandkurtenbach (talk) 22:49, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Done. Thanks. Orlandkurtenbach (talk) 03:21, 25 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Prose looks much better than it was for the previous nomination. But I still see a niggle or two:
    • "Sweden failed to earn a medal once more, finishing in fifth place." ... "Again, Sweden failed ...". Then you don't need the awkward "once more" in the middle of the sentence, nor the "again" in three seconds' time.
    • I don't get this sentence: "He finished with nine points in nine games, tied for fourth in tournament-scoring." The connector seems to be missing from the middle.

I dare not look further; but I suppose it's passable in terms of 1a ... just. Tony (talk) 12:47, 24 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think I addressed the above issues. Thanks for the review. Orlandkurtenbach (talk) 03:21, 25 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm still confused as to what's going on with the image. It's still in the article...is Jappalang okay with it? Karanacs (talk) 13:57, 28 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I am wondering the same thing. Orlandkurtenbach (talk) 22:30, 28 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Orland, as the nominator you either need to follow up with Jappalang or remove the image. You've had a week since I left the original note - I'm really tempted to just archive the nomination. Karanacs (talk) 13:16, 5 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I removed the image for right now since it's still in debate. I did not want to see the article fail over one disputed image. If the issue is cleared up please replace it. Cheers.--Mo Rock...Monstrous (talk) 02:56, 6 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I've requested a definitive answer from Jappalang in regards to the image. Orlandkurtenbach (talk) 22:38, 6 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
No image issues remain with the removal of that photograph (I have further explained what troubled me about that photograph above). Jappalang (talk) 01:11, 7 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note, an unnecessary sea of blue links. Unless Sedin is specifically mentioned in all of the "Season" articles, why are they linked? This is a frequently irritating and unnecessary feature of sports articles. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:37, 7 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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