- Massacre of Brzostowica Mała (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)
First, my vote count suggest 'no consensus' rather than preference delete (merge 1, Delete 6, Keep 7), so this should've been either relisted or, well, closed as 'no consensus'. Second, deleting admin (User:Sandstein) main rationale was the lack of English language sources, but so what? His opinion that " controversial issues in WP:AC/DS topic areas do require good sources in more than one (non-English) language in order to allow as many editors as possible, and not just a few or those possibly associated with one side of a conflict, to assess the content" is npt present at the AC/DS page. It is the closing's admin own view and goes against WP:NOENG. If a controversial topic has no English sources, it doesn't matter, certainly it is not a sufficient reason for deletion. For cases where neutrality is disputed, ditto - we have {{NPOV}} that suffices for tagging content disputes. The topic, i.e. 1939 massacre in the village of Brzostowica Mała, is notable, and verifiable with reliable sources (it has been discussed in books and academic articles plus Polish national media (ex. [1], [2]), through sources are almost exclusively Polish, one English source I found is an English language chapter/summary in a book here; it is worth noting several delete votes were from people who concluded that no English sources -> this didn't happen. There is no doubt the event did happen, ex. see souce cited before; plus Polish Institute of National Remembrance concluded an investigation into this, closed in 2005 due to lack of evidence - for who were the perps, but there was no doubt that approximately few dozen people were killed; sources: [3]. Again, I can't believe the closing admin gave credence to the arguments like that). There is some controversy when it comes to the ethnicity of the perpetrators, but how to word such issues is a topic to discuss on the article's talk page (where there was an ongoing discussion, suddenly interrupted by the deletion). The delete arguments are sadly WP:IDONTLIKEITs, and I am surprised an experienced admin like Sandstein was swayed by them, and further, that he chose to ignore NOENG and de facto invented a new section of AC/DS (this is ArbCom's job, I think). Anyway, to summarize, the vote count does not support deletion, and this is a clear 'no consensus' case. The topic is notable and there is no valid reason to delete this article just because some involved editors are disagreeing about reliability of some sources, or other minor content issues. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 11:57, 23 March 2018 (UTC) Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 11:57, 23 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- @Sandstein:, please note that our WP:BIO about historian Marek Jan Chodakiewicz (controversy notwithstanding) was defaced by the AfD nominator himself, along with Poland's notable awards (anonymous source) during this AfD. The AfD was marred by the use of online attack pages which actually look like jokes, with typefaces screaming at 400% normal size. This is an ANI issue of major proportions. The tag-teaming at the AfD was like a flashback from 10 years ago. Please consider this !vote a nominal request on my part, because I believe that in the deletion discussion the lack of consensus was interpreted incorrectly considering the above mentioned circumstances. Please, don't bother with WP:BLUDGEON responses. Poeticbent talk 19:20, 23 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- Note - Not only was there a lack of English sources, there was a lack of Polish sources that treated this at length in a secondary INDEPTH manner. The google book linked above in English by Marek Jan Chodakiewicz was published by Fronda, and not by a reputable academic publisher, and is by a highly polemical source/author - and from the snippet view it does not appear to treat the subject INDEPTH (seems to be less than a page from the snippets)) - it also was not discussed at the AfD I believe. Most of the Polish language sources are blurbs or single sentence mentions. The PRIMARY IPN decision not to pursue this is a paragraph, leaving us with one INDEPTH source - a newspaper account in the conservative Nasz Dziennik. For historical topics to be standalone articles we typically require multiple, secondary, indepth and independent coverage - typically a few journal article or books by academic publishers covering the topic with a few pages each.Icewhiz (talk) 19:32, 23 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment. Request temp undelete. Szzuk (talk) 20:54, 23 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse I don't envy Sandstein for trying to close this, and I'm not sure I agree with the rationale, but I think the result is justifiable. The common thread running through most of the Delete comments is that the available sources (at least the scholarly ones) give the subject a passing mention in the context of a wider event or don't cover it at all. This is a good argument for deletion, or at least merging, and I don't see a convincing attempt to rebut it in the discussion. If the topic is notable I don't see why we should be considering articles in news media in order to prove it. The Second World War has a good claim to be the most analysed episode in human history and if an event is significant then I expect it would have been covered in depth by academics. Hut 8.5 21:17, 23 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse. I just read the Polish wp page and it says the official investigation into this massacre 15 years ago was closed due to lack of evidence. There is a big pov template on the page. The closers first sentence basically says "is this verifiable" and I can't see how it can be given the official investigation was closed. If this article was called 'Massacre Investigation' or similar there would be no problem. Szzuk (talk) 21:23, 23 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- I was disappointed by the regrettable premature closing of the "Massacre of Brzostowica Mała" article (which, as I suggested on its talk page, should have been retitled "Brzostowica Mała massacre", analogously to other massacres such as the Malmedy massacre). Most accounts of notable crimes begin with fragmentary, confused, and inconclusive information (the Watergate scandal comes to mind). The very fact that the Brzostowica Mała event has been a subject of considerable interest in Poland makes it notable. Werewolves and vampires have their Wikipedia articles, though, as those articles make clear, such folkloric beings have never even existed. Jack the Ripper has his Wikipedia article though, as in the case of the Brzostowica Mała massacre, the perpetrator remains unknown (and is a perennial subject of interest). And, as other editors have noted above, the language of the sources is not a controlling consideration; bilingual editors can provide, confirm, or correct English translations. Less notable topics than the Brzostowica Mała massacre are available for consultation on Wikipedia. Thank you. Nihil novi (talk) 00:18, 24 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- How is a 19th century mystery serial killer who has been analyzed for over 120 years comparable to an incident which has only been mentioned in bits and pieces? The canonical five and countless sources are testaments to the Ripper's legend and, more importantly, notability. That is the only thing from your argument I will address; the vampires and werewolves part is just pure nonsense.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 01:50, 24 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment. I can't believe we are still hearing arguments 'but there are not enough sources, this is not notable/verifiable'. This event has been discussed in at least several sources, through the extent of this is not always clear due to limitations of Google Books snippet view. Clearly, some sources dedicate at least several sentences to this event, and likely, paragraph or multiple ones (And yes, 99% of them are in Polish - but WP:NOENG makes it irrelevant). :
- Marek Jan Chodakiewicz: [4]: "On the night of 17/18 September 1939 r., urged on by the Communist Zak Motyl (Motek Zak?) of Brzostowica Wielka, a pro-Communist criminal gang led by Koziejko and Ajzyk (Icchak?), consisting of Belorussians and Jews, attacked the estate of Brzostowica Mała near Grodno and the nearby village Brzostowica Mała, where the administrative authorities were loca- ted. It appears that they slaughtered a large number of, if not all, the ethnic Poles in those localities. This massacre..."
- Polish historian pl:Krzysztof Jasiewicz in [5] (in Polish) called this "likely the best known massacre in the North-East Kresy" ("do bodajże najgłośniejszego mordu na Kresach Północno-Wschodnich doszło z 17 na 18 września 1939 r. w Brzostowicy Małej w pow. Grodno ")
- a brief mention of the massacre is [6]. pl:Dzieje Najnowsze is a peer reviewed journal by a reliable academic outlet (pl:Instytut Historii im. Tadeusza Manteuffla Polskiej Akademii Nauk) and the author is another reliable Polish historian pl:Mieczysław Bielski
- Institute of National Remembrance has spent ~5 years investigating this event. It has concluded ([7]) that there is insufficient evidence to identify the perpatrators, or most details conclusively, but has accepted the fact of the massacre with dozens victims as a fact. I think one or two IPN sources were present in the article, and I might have cited another one on the talk page, but the article is gone and I can't easily find them (they are in Internet Archive and not easily google searchable)
- pl:Marek Wierzbicki (historyk) in [8], page 66, seems to dedicate at least few sentences to this
- one more book by one more Polish historian pl:Wojciech Śleszyński mentions this: [9]
- yet another book, this one by [10] (can't find his bio), [11], discusses this at similar length at least; this author discusses this topic in another book too: [12]
- [13] on p.370. That said, the author (pl:Ryszard Szawłowski - KL is a pen-name) is called by pl wiki a amateur historian, nonetheless he is cited in a number of other sources, and the review of his book in what seems an academic outlet at [14] is positive. Also his name is sometimes spelled Richard, and there are mentions of "Richard Szawlowski, a young professor of the University of Calgary who has studied the communist world for a long time" - but those may be two separate people
- [15] - another brief mention, through this one is in a minor if seemingly peer reviewed Polish journal ([16] through this may be because it name has changed [17]). Couldn't find a bio of the author but she has published several books on history: [18]
- I limited myself to academic sources. I am not (re)listing Polish media, but this event has been discussed at length in several if not 10+ Polish media outlets, and mentioned in passing in more, and that alone should be enough to establish its notability, too.
- There is no single source where the very fact that people died there is disputed (there is some controversy over whether attribution of perps by Chodakiewicz and some others was done correctly, this is the bone of contention). But you cannot seriously say this event is not researched, not verifiable, and not notable. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 01:55, 24 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- The survey above (which includes some marginal sources quality wise) clearly shows this is a WP:INDEPTH fail. We do not build Wikipedia articles off of passing mentions. The event might pass WP:V in terms of mentioning the hrabia family was killed in other articles (if relevant). Death toll does not pass V (the IPN count was 6 in Brzostowica Mała for instance - fatalities did occur in other locations - there was a Soviet/Nazi invasion with internal revolts and turmoil concurrent to events in Brzostowica Mała). The attribution to Żydokomuna (an anti semitic canard - Judeo-Communists) probably does not pass V (and inserting such material to wikipedia should be questioned on DUE and if due - should be clearly attributed). No one has shown an academic source with more than a page. We have one liners and blurbs, all WP:BIASED from one nationality (and many of those are from hard nationalist elements in that nationality).Icewhiz (talk) 05:10, 24 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- Since when does WP:V require a death toll? Also some sources talk of dozens dead. Since when does WP:V require one then more page? And due to snippet view we are unable to judge lenght well, some of those sources MAY be over a page long. You cannot assume either way. Several paragraphs have been usually sufficient for such topics to be seen as notable. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 15:17, 24 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- It is possible to assess length in snippet view. No one has been able to produce an academic RS here with more than a paragraph, and most are less than that (one liners or paragraph fragments). Articles written and assessed for AfD per the sources we know are out there, not what may be there. This is a clear WP:INDEPTH fail.Icewhiz (talk) 21:01, 24 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- While the exact perpetrators of this crime haven't been put to justice due to time involved, the massacre is sufficiently covered in reliable sources allowing it to be described.I see no reason for deletion of the article.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 13:55, 24 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse Read the AfD and this discussion so far and given the nature of the article (potentially controversial event, verifiability based on non-English language sources, POV issues with non-language sources as per native language Wikipedia page) it seems as if the closer has taken a difficult AfD and arrived at the correct result. Furthermore, the delete or weak delete votes appear to have made better arguments, or at least have done better work on nutting out exactly what happened here, especially the thread started by Smmurphy. SportingFlyer talk 21:34, 24 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn and re-list at AFD for a better consensus to emerge, hopefully this time without the disruption that occurred last time. The lack of consensus seems pretty clear to me. ~Anachronist (talk) 07:43, 26 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse but userfy. When I first read this page, it was about a killing of 50 people on a single day in a single village, including a count (hrabia) and his family. Looking through the sources, I found none that suggested the death toll that day in that village was above 10 (if I remember correctly, the number was 6 or 8, depending on the sources), although over a series of days in a number of villages the death toll may have reached 250, although that number was said to be not accurate in the source where it was given. My understanding is that there may have been a killing of some members of the petty nobility, who may have been upgraded to the rank of hrabia or may have actually held that rank, I don't know. There are enough sources that say they existed that I feel they are verifiable, but the sources about their killing as a significant event on a particular day were a bit one-sided and may not be NPOV (I don't remember for sure, there may have been mention of the murders on both sides of the spectrum). That said, there were many sources across the POV spectrum (the spectrum is Polish nationalist academics seeking to explain Polish violence towards Jews to Western European and US academics seeking to explain local support for Soviet invasions in the region) which discuss revolts and uprisings in this village and a number of villages nearby. During the AfD, a Icewhiz, myself, and an IP edited the article, moving its POV towards the Western European and US academic direction and the focus of the article towards the revolts in general across a number of days and in a number of villages rather than a massacre on one day in one village, and Poeticbent added some sources and changed some language which moved the article's POV towards the Polish nationalist direction (I apologize if these labels are offensive, I am using them based on my understanding and my need for a quick description). Other users edited the article as well, some significantly although I don't remember who and to what effect. By the time it was deleted, the article had improved in my opinion. Given the divisive nature of the subject and the flagging interest in the AfD, putting the AfD out of its misery was not a bad decision. Sandstein's rational for closing seems fine to me and I do not think it should be overturned. In the closing, sandstein noted the possibilities of userfication.
I support using the material from this article, including mention of the murder of the hrabia and his family, in an article about the uprisings in general - either as a stand alone article or as a part of one or more existing articles. I do not think the old article should be rewritten in a NPOV form, as I don't think there was a clearly encyclopedic "massacre" in that place - there was an investigation of a particular killing as a part of a series of investigations of many killings, but the exact details are based on long-after-the-fact reports). An article on the series of revolts in general would mention a number of the more well documented particular events, noting when that documentation is more or less partisan. I still have my notes, but it would be useful to have the article itself userfied or draftified to help this work. Smmurphy(Talk) 22:32, 26 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- I am striking a particular sentence from my remark. The main source of the statement that there were a number of revolts around this period is here, a chapter by Marek Wierzbicki in a 2007 book. This is an English version of an argument he makes elsewhere and lists 16/17 locations of revolts (which does not include Skidel and lists neighboring Wielka Brzostowica but not Brzostowica Mała). I found another article from the same end of the spectrum that gives more detail and is based on Wierzbicki and on Wierzbicki's mentor, Strzembosz and a few other articles (Chapter 3 (p59-74) of this non-neutral book: Paul, Mark. NEIGHBOURS On the Eve of the Holocaust, PEFINA Press Toronto 2016). These sources give a list of villages and places. I do not know that revolts did not happen in these places, but I looked for information about pre-Soviet occupation violence or revolts and I only found evidence in one case, at Motol [19], and that case was far from a revolt and didn't strike me as encyclopedic. As such, I no longer think an article about pre-Soviet occupation communist (or Jewish or Belorussian) revolts in Poland is encyclopedic, as there I do not think there exists broad enough POV of sources on them (I'm happy to change my mind but would need evidence beyond memoirs, preferably published by an academic press or in a peer reviewed journal). Noting User:Piotrus's comment below, I still think userfication (to their userspace) would be fine. I'm unsure about eventual return to article space as a redirect to preserve article history, but weakly support that proposal, too. I think material in the article could be merged with the Skidel revolt and, maybe, with Soviet invasion pages or elsewhere. Smmurphy(Talk) 20:47, 28 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
|
