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Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/The Ruptured Duck (B-25)

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. There seems to be consensus that what (relatively little) content there is specifically about this aircraft is better suited for inclusion in the parent article.  Sandstein  09:57, 11 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The Ruptured Duck (B-25)

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The Ruptured Duck (B-25) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)
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Non-notable aircraft. one of sixteen in the Doolittle Raid, none of the others have an article. Most of the article makes very little mention of the actual aircraft and gives no indication of individual notability. Sections of the article repeat information from pilot's Ted W. Lawson article and the Doolittle Raid. Notability is not inherited from either the pilot or the raid. The Doolittle Raid article already says as much as needed on the Ruptured Duck. MilborneOne (talk) 16:04, 3 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Aviation-related deletion discussions. MilborneOne (talk) 16:09, 3 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions. MilborneOne (talk) 16:10, 3 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep In what possible way is the encyclopedia improved by deleting articles like this?
A rationale of "Not notable, because other potentially related articles don't exist" is nonsense (and an experienced editor should know better).
As to basic notability, this is a 70 year old aircraft that's still recognisable by its name. Does the nominator really claim that it doesn't meet WP:GNG? Andy Dingley (talk) 16:42, 3 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
(Comment) I cant see any evidence that the actual aircraft is any more notable than the others in the raid that requires it to have a stand-alone article. If I felt it met the GNG I would not have raised the AfD! Nothing in this article that cant be (or already is) in the Doolittle or Lawson article. MilborneOne (talk) 17:41, 3 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
There are a vast number of articles that are "not required" - pretty much anything that's not on the "vital articles" list. However not having a requirement to do something is a long way from being compelled to, or it even being a good idea to, delete something that does now exist.
"Being required" is an irrelevance here. The only question is, "Is it permitted?" Andy Dingley (talk) 11:06, 4 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Where is the requirement for the aircraft to be the subject of a work for it to meet notability? The requirement per WP:N is 'significant coverage'. Andy Dingley (talk) 21:12, 3 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The why did a reputable museum, in possession of a perfectly significant B-25 with its own history, chose instead to display the aircraft under a "false flag" (something that's hugely controversial in museum circles) as this particular aircraft? Andy Dingley (talk) 11:06, 4 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Besides being Lawson's aircraft that is prominently described in both his book and the film adaptation, the "The Ruptured Duck" was chosen to commemorate the Doolittle Raid at the Pacific Aviation Museum, and appears as the example for artwork, models (both in scale and in electronic versions). "The Ruptured Duck" also appears as the subject of a stamp issued to commemorate the Doolittle Raid. A macabre connection is that Doolittle Raider David Thatcher is one of the last survivors and in recounting his story aboard aircraft #7, "The Ruptured Duck", he essentially links the story of the aircraft and its role in the raid to his personal recollections. Finally, the choice of the "ruptured duck" symbol for the aircraft nose art was important as it represents a highly esteemed U.S. military award, officially the National Defense Lapel Button issued to personnel honorably discharged from service. FWiW Bzuk (talk) 14:42, 4 November 2012 (UTC).[reply]
  • Weak Delete - Per nom. No reliable sources cited to give indication of notability, merely primary sources, models and pins, which of themselves don't provide notabilty as required by WP:N. The article itself is more about the raid and the crew, which can be, and probably are,covered elsewhere. The article does claim notability for the subject, so if the citing issues are addressed on time, I would support it being kept. - BilCat (talk) 16:25, 4 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The interesting suggestion that the markings/scheme of The Ruptured Duck was specifically chosen at the Pacific Aviation Museum, led to a contact with the curator and staff at the museum. The curator indicated that the aircraft itself was to be a representative aircraft, essentially a display piece that would dramatize the Doolittle Raid. In choosing the colors and markings, the choice was to portray in his words, the most prominent or "best known" of the B-25s in the raid. When asking for a direct quote, the curator indicated that he would respond via email. The very colorful markings were recreated by an actual wartime illustrator who was brought into the museum; the nose art is now further recreated by other artists, again choosing this scheme over all others in the Doolittle Raid. FWiW Bzuk (talk) 19:42, 5 November 2012 (UTC).[reply]
That's original research, and we can't cite that in the article. However, if it were to be published in a reliable source such as a book or newspaper article from a reliable publisher, it would be usable then, Know any authors? ;) - BilCat (talk) 02:57, 11 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak keep - The topic meets WP:GNG, but the article focuses on everything but The Ruptured Duck. For example, "Doolittle chose the relatively new B-25B." - that focuses on Doolittle. A sentence "The Ruptured Duck was chosen by Doolittle" focuses on the main topic, namely, The Ruptured Duck. The section on Preparations for the Doolittle Raid should only focus on how The Ruptured Duck was prepared for the Doolittle Raid. The Origins of the name section focuses too much on Lawson and not on the plane. The Doolittle Raid section should be limited to The Ruptured Duck's role in that raid. The Crew of The Ruptured Duck should focus on the plane as well. Instead of "Ted W. Lawson was the pilot.", it should be "The Ruptured Duck was piloted by Ted W. Lawson." Ted W. Lawson's birth date of 7 March 1917 listed in the article has no relevance to the plane. There appears to be no effort in the development of the article to focus on the plane. This has lead to using source material for its content on everything but The Ruptured Duck. I iVoted weak keep because the topic does meet WP:GNG but deleting the article and starting from scratch to focus on the plane is a viable option. -- Uzma Gamal (talk) 10:12, 10 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • delete, article isn't about the aircraft. --Shorthate (talk) 21:46, 10 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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