Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Clan Martin

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was merge to Clan Cameron. Stifle (talk) 23:15, 9 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Clan Martin

Non notable Scottish Clan. Article was deleted by Wikipedia:Proposed deletion and is back. The reasons then are much the same as the text is the same, article is not notable Czar Brodie (talk) 23:58, 22 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Notable sept of the Cameron clan. I have added a citation. Colonel Warden (talk) 17:22, 23 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

comment: I think the question is not if MacMartin or Martin exists as a Scottish surname, or is part (sept (social)) of a clan, but whether "Clan Martin" is a clan in its own right, and can be listed as such. Yours ever, Czar Brodie (talk) 17:35, 23 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

No, the question is whether this article should be deleted. Per WP:BEFORE, there seem to be good alternatives to deletion and so we should not as deletion is only for hopeless cases. Colonel Warden (talk) 17:37, 23 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The article has been about for several years before it was deleted and recreated, it was tagged etc, but the author deleted the tags. Having some knowledge of clans I suspect the article is a hoax. A good and complete list of clans can be found in the archives of [myclan.org], an old site of the Standing Council of Scottish Chiefs. Clan Martin in my view is suspect. I have looked far and wide (internet, books), and posted a query at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Clans of Scotland#Clan Martin for a second opinion. My investigations found that the internet sites that mention Clan Martin seem to have got their info from the wikipedia article (eg electricscotland.com). However Wikipedia is about references, not the truth, and under those guidelines my thinking is that Clan Martin is not notable. Accordingly I think I have followed WP:BEFORE. Note also, Clan Cameron has many septs: Chambers, Chalmers, Clark, Clarke, Clarkson, Cleary, Clerk, Dowie, Gibbon, Gilbertson, Kennedy, Krywonis, Leary....Martin, Paul, Sorlie...in all 46 names; should they all become clans? Yours ever, Czar Brodie (talk) 19:05, 23 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

What you are implicitly arguing for seems to be merger or move rather than deletion. Our editing policy is to keep material and develop it rather than delete it totally for some imperfection. Colonel Warden (talk) 21:53, 23 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

No, sorry I was not clear. I am arguing that the article be deleted. Our threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability. The article in my view is not notable and a probable hoax. I think moving much of the unsourced information to another place will benefit nobody. Yours ever, Czar Brodie (talk) 22:36, 23 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

comment Brodie's point is there isn't a recognised 'Clan Martin', like this article is trying to present. But there is a historical Martin sept associated with Clan Cameron which has been commented on in books describing Clan Cameron. Within the table of contents of Moncreiffe's book he's got Clan Cameron listed as "Cameron (MacGillonie, MacMartin)". According to Moncreiffe, the Cameron 'Martins' were a sept of the MacGillonies; and that an early Cameron married a MacGillonie heiress, thus inheriting the lands occupied by those two families. Information along these lines is already within the Cameron article (though right now it looks pretty close to being copy-and-pasted from the Cameron website). The stuff about 'official clan mottos', the 'second wave' of 'Dal Riadic emigrations' isn't mentioned by Moncreiffe at all. I don't think we're going to get a reliable source to confirm that kind of stuff. The info that is backed up with a good reference (worth preserving) is already on wikipedia.--Celtus (talk) 08:06, 24 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It seems that there's three issues here :

1. Should "Clan" and "Martin" both appear in an article name? That seems a clean "no", if the SCSC doesn't recognise them as a clan, then neither should Wikipedia. But Clan Martin and Clan Macmartin should redirect somewhere, even if they shouldn't be be articles in their own right.
2. Should there be an article on the Scottish Martin "tribe", whether you want to call them a clan, a sept, a branch or whatever? That seems to be the real point under debate. After all, we do have a few articles on the major clan septs, albeit the ones that are big enough to be alomst considered as clans in their own right. However I would note that the Cameron website calls them a "branch" of the Camerons rather than an independent sept, let alone a clan, and there doesn't seem to be a distinct grouping of "Macmartin of Loy" or somesuch. Thus I'm not quite sure what you would call such an article, although some of it might belong in Martin (name).
From what I can tell of the history, the Martins formed a confederation with the Camerons in the 14th century, and the two clans merged by marriage (and driving the Martin leaders into exile) in the 1430s. What separate "clan-like" identity they had disappeared over the next century or so. At that stage the Highlands were still pretty much in the Dark Ages, you're relying on distinctly unreliable chronicles and ballads to record oral history. WP:V is a real problem for anything in the Highlands before the 16th century - and that's all you've got for the Martins. Conversely, if you can verify any of the early history, then it belongs as much to Clan Cameron as it does to an independent Martin "tribe", so you'll be putting it in the Cameron article in any case.
3. The current content of the Clan Martin article. Huge WP:V problems (I think that's what Brodie meant more than notability?), none of it belongs in Wikipedia until it can be verified from WP:RS.

Proposal - If any material from the Clan Martin article can be verified by reference to WP:RS, place it in the Clan Cameron article, otherwise delete it. Clan Martin and Clan Macmartin to be made into redirects to Clan Cameron, and add a link in the Cameron article to Martin (name). If verified material about Martin ever threatens to overwhelm the Cameron article, we can think again about breaking out a "sept"-type article, but in the mean time I think any material about the Martin "tribe" should be subject to WP:REDFLAG. Le Deluge (talk) 15:03, 27 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Disagree on a point in the Proposal: Clan Martin is simply not notable as a Scottish clan. Redirecting as such does not seem logical in my view. Examining the use of the term "Clan Martin" finds that it is notable as a Canadian term used to describe the political party of Paul Martin, the 21st Prime Minister of Canada. See RCI, Le Devoir, Canoe, Radio Canada, WSWS, LNC...etc. So I think redirecting the link to Clan Cameron is not appropriate. Deletion seems the best course of action. Clan Cameron already notes that Martin is one of its septs. If an article is needed, which I do not agree is the case here, Martin (sept), seems more appropriate, i.e. like Gibson (sept) or Taylor sept. However as matters stand in my view, Martin (sept), would have little verifiable information that could justify a seperate article. Yours ever, Czar Brodie (talk) 11:13, 29 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, MBisanz ^talk 02:31, 30 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Merge any verifiable material to Clan Cameron and redirect. Alternatively, if there is no verifiable material, Delete. All information must be verifiable. Don't get sidetracked by notability or how someone else would classify or treat it. Drawn Some (talk) 03:14, 30 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Merge and redirect to Clan Cameron, per Drawn Some. --Clay Collier (talk) 03:17, 30 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
MergeUnless and until there is a precedent for each sub-clan to be found notable. Collect (talk) 10:43, 30 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Brodie, the existence of a redirect is not a statement of what "Wikipedia" thinks about a subject, it's merely a courtesy to assist those who don't quite know what they're looking for, to find an appropriate article. The presence of an "article" is closer to your idea of "accepting notability", not a redirect. And a redirect also thwarts those who view a red link as a challenge - if this is left as a red link, we'll be going through this again every few months for ever. "Clan Martin" is a real world usage, however incorrect that usage may be. So we need to have something as an entry under that name, even if it is only a redirect.Le Deluge (talk) 13:44, 30 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Tweak. On further research, although the (Mac)Martins of Letterfinlay that merged with the Camerons in the 15th century were a "proper" clan (with a chiefdom that persisted for about a century after the merger, it's a bit like Chattan/Mackintosh), it seems that there are at least two other groups of Martins in Scotland (in Skye and the Lothians), plus some "sporadics" that were named as people became Christian. And there's also some Martin families in Ireland which people might refer as "clans". On the other hand MacMartin seems to apply pretty exclusively to the MacMartins of Letterfinlay. So I've redirected Clan MacMartin directly to the Cameron article, and propose that Clan Martin redirects to Martin (name) and let people disambiguate themselves there, I've added a brief note already. Any verifiable material in the current article probably goes into the Cameron article. Le Deluge (talk) 13:44, 30 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment-that sounds more sensible than redirecting to Clan Cameron but I'll leave it to those of you knowledgeable in this area. Drawn Some (talk) 17:32, 30 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

suggestion based on the above opinions: ~~Merge the following text (with reference) to Clan Cameron~~:-

~~The MacMartins are said to have been amongst the most loyal and valuable followers of Lochiel. In the 1745 Jacobite Uprising, the MacMartins were "out with" Lochiel's regiment.^[1]~~ [just now added said text to Clan Cameron, see Clan Cameron#18th century & Jacobite uprisings, 3rd para]

and redirect Clan Martin to Martin (name). Yours ever, Czar Brodie (talk) 01:17, 8 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

With reference to the motto: "Hinc Fortior et Clarior", mottoes belong to individuals. A clan chief may lend his motto as part of a crest badge, this designates the wearer as a follower of that clan. As far as I can see, Martin is not a clan. I do not see why one of the mottos registered by a person by the name of Martin would be kept or merged. Mottoes do not designate a clan, rather a clan chief designates a motto. Nor is it clear why this motto is chosen from the many Martins who registered one. Is the editor insinuating that the Martins of Sligo are the Chiefs of Clan Martin? If so references would be needed to shew the Martins of Sligo to be of the Chiefly line (and Martin to be a clan...). I have not found any evidence of this. As matters stand, I do not think this information relevant to Martin as a sept (would only be appropriate to Martin as a Scottish clan). Martin as a sept has the motto of the clan for the crest badge, i.e. "Aonaibh ri cheile" for Clan Cameron. My thinking is that the motto "Hinc Fortior et Clarior" should not be merged as it is not relevant. Yours ever, Czar Brodie (talk) 14:14, 8 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

^ Iain Moncreiffe, Iain Moncreiffe of that Ilk, David Hicks (1982), The Highland Clans, pp. 48–51, ISBN 9780091447403{{citation}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)

[1] Iain Moncreiffe, Iain Moncreiffe of that Ilk, David Hicks (1982), The Highland Clans, pp. 48–51, ISBN 9780091447403{{citation}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)

[1]