Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Aizō Tōge

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Hopefully, some of the sources mentioned in this discussion can find their way into this article. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 22:03, 19 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Aizō Tōge

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Lost film, stub article contains no more than Film infobox and one source. Robert Kerber (talk) 17:25, 5 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. No source on when it was released. Sarrail (talk) 17:44, 5 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

If it's important, these two sources give the release date [1] [2]. The first is from the distributor, Nikkatsu, and the second is from a film database run by the government's Agency for Cultural Affairs. Dekimasuよ! 01:53, 6 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

None of the major sources (Kinenote, production company website, Japan Cinema Database, film literature) is able to give a synopsis or reviews of Aizō Tōge. All they state is that the film once existed, and when it was intially released. The Nikkatsu page even states: "Due to the lack of materials for pre-war works (before 1942), the content of the data on this website is not necessarily accurate." At present Aizō Tōge does not meet WP:NFILM.--Robert Kerber (talk) 09:03, 6 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Film-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 18:11, 5 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Film and Japan. Shellwood (talk) 18:11, 5 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Japan-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 18:11, 5 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
This should be a keep; there are sources available in Japanese on the production of the film and its position in the work of Kenji Mizoguchi, who is still considered one of the most important directors in Japanese film. It was Mizoguchi's last film with Nikkatsu, which is a dividing line between his early career and his more mature and independent work. I am not sure I will be able to put sources together during this AfD, but here are a few prospects: around page 60–70 of 「紫陽花や山田五十鈴という女優」by Kinen Matsumoto (2003) on cinematography, p. 284 of「日本映画作家論」by Akira Iwasaki (1958) on Mizoguchi and Nikkatsu, 「溝口健二・全作品解說: 「愛憎峠」・「折鶴お千」」(Explanation and Analysis of All of Mizoguchi Kenji's Works (Vol. 12): Aizō Tōge and The Downfall of Osen, Tsutomu Saso, 2016). The last one in particular is clearly in-depth coverage based upon magazine and newspaper reports from the time of release. Dekimasuよ! 01:53, 6 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

There seem to be about 100 pages of coverage on this film in the last source. Dekimasuよ! 03:08, 6 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Dekimasu The topic here is Aizō Tōge, not Orizuru Osen, of which, contrary to the former, a print and re-release reviews exist. None of the sources you cite seems to be able to give a synopsis or reviews of Aizō Tōge from the time of its initial run. The Nikkatsu page even states: "Due to the lack of materials for pre-war works (before 1942), the content of the data on this website is not necessarily accurate." No-one questions Mizoguchi's importance, I in the least who has worked on various WP entries on his films, but at present Aizō Tōge does not meet WP:NFILM, and your presumption that it is a "guiding line" is WP:OR as long as you can't cite a source for this. See a similar case here with a lost film by Naruse. Best, Robert Kerber (talk) 08:50, 6 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

If this was unclear, the book is called "Aizō Tōge and Orizuru Osen" and there are 100 pages specifically on Aizō Tōge along with 300 pages on Orizuru Osen. The 100 pages on Aizō Tōge include information on its plot and reviews from its initial run. On the dividing line, note that we have cited a quote in our Osaka Elegy article stating that "Mizoguchi himself named Osaka Elegy and Sisters of the Gion as the works with which he achieved artistic maturity." Osaka Elegy came out after Orizuru Osen, and Aizō Tōge was the only film he produced for Nikkatsu after returning from being attacked. This may not be sufficient for adding to the article now, so I haven't done so, but it is relevant information for the AfD. As I said above, I am not sure I can do what's sufficient during the AfD, but it's unfortunate because sources certainly do exist, and the Tsutomu Sasō book is likely the best option in order to find a comprehensive selection of them. I probably can't get my hands on it within the week. (The Nikkatsu site is not really necessary; there is ample documentary evidence of when the film was released.) Dekimasuよ! 23:52, 6 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Along with Dekimasu's last source, a search through National Diet Library reveals additional possible offline sources that would make this film meet WP:GNG. Jumpytoo Talk 04:33, 9 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, if anyone has access in particular to #4 and/or #10 there, those look to be very good sources for the article. Dekimasuよ! 04:56, 15 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 17:25, 12 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Weak keep based on substantial book coverage identified in this discussion. Weak keep as not able to check sources so assuming WP:AGF Atlantic306 (talk) 19:21, 17 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.