Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2021 International Friendlies

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Daniel (talk) 01:11, 6 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

2021 International Friendlies

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Not needed, very crufty. It's just an indiscriminate list of all (senior, youth, men's, women's, etc.) association football international games played in 2021. I'm not aware of similar lists in association football (or any sport for that matter). Nehme₁₄₉₉ 22:12, 29 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Football-related deletion discussions. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 22:12, 29 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 22:12, 29 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. Useless page, unless we're just listing every single sports match for each year now. AdoTang (talk) 22:17, 29 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related deletions. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 22:19, 29 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - as a clear example of WP:NOT, in particular WP:INDISCRIMINATE Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 22:46, 29 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Nehme1499: @AdoTang: @Spiderone: I can get rid of all the youth matches and just list the professional men and women... This isn't useless because international friendlies gain a lot of attention and people would like to see the matches. Again I can remove the youth matches because they seem unnecessary. Mohammad (talk) 23:13, 29 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Saint.Helena.Tristen.Da.Cunha.and.Asuncion.: My position stands, even if only men's senior games are kept. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 00:05, 30 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Nehme1499: Can you explain to me, thoroughly, why? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Saint.Helena.Tristen.Da.Cunha.and.Asuncion. (talk • contribs) 00:18, 30 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Saint.Helena.Tristen.Da.Cunha.and.Asuncion.: I have already offered my explanation above, which is not only limited to the fact that there were youth, women's, men's, etc. games. Also, see the two users above's explanations as well. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 00:30, 30 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Nehme1499: How is this any different than any sports competition article? I'm putting the matches of THAT competition (not every single national team fixture, but the international friendlies which is what I think you misunderstood) so it has a meaning. I'm not just listing all games, I'm listing all games of the competition, which is what every sports article does. What am I missing? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Saint.Helena.Tristen.Da.Cunha.and.Asuncion. (talk • contribs) 00:35, 30 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Saint.Helena.Tristen.Da.Cunha.and.Asuncion.: Please, remember to sign your comments. I haven't misunderstood; the difference between 2018 FIFA World Cup and 2021 International Friendlies is that International Friendlies is not a competition, while FIFA World Cup is. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 00:41, 30 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Nehme1499: So I can't mention it because it isn't a competition? Where does it say that in the deletion guidelines? And if you say "because it isn't important" or something, then why is it streamed all around the world, covered by all tv providers, and has a lot of attention to it. Again, I'm talking about the men's senior so it is a big deal. Also, International Friendlies isn't a competition because there is no winner. That's the only reason why.

@Saint.Helena.Tristen.Da.Cunha.and.Asuncion.: I never said that if it isn't a competition it must be deleted. I was answering your question "How is this any different than any sports competition article?". Please, read Spiderone's guidelines linked above. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 00:59, 30 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Nehme1499: So what I'm understanding is, there is nothing wrong with the point of the article (International Friendlies) but the way it is written (a list of matches) is the issue. If correct then I'm not a good writer so I need someone to do that writing. Mohammad (talk) 01:28, 30 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I have an issue with both the form and content of the article. A list of hundreds of friendly games is basically just WP:Listcruft. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 01:33, 30 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Nehme1499: It's not going to be just a list, I am adding statistics and all that as we speak.Mohammad (talk) 02:01, 30 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The problem isn't that it's a list (lists exists on Wikipedia). The problem isn't that it isn't a competition. The problem is that this list is too specific and unnecessary. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 02:05, 30 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Nehme1499: What do you mean specific? And it isn't really unnecessary because it's listing the international friendlies. Mohammad (talk) 02:47, 30 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Saint.Helena.Tristen.Da.Cunha.and.Asuncion.: The issue is that it's an unusually specific, practically useless list. We don't have articles listing every single hockey game held in 1946 with scores and teams. We don't have articles listing every single race ever held on Hockenheimring with the names of every racer, their sponsors, and the winner. Your article is just a list of every single soccer match held this year and only this year. Even if these lists were somehow allowed, it'd still become very long by December 2021, and it would require weekly, if not daily maintenance for the entire year (and beyond if you count vandalism, corrections, or inaccurate information fixes). Read what everyone else has to say. We're not saying soccer isn't notable or anything, we're saying this article isn't needed. AdoTang (talk) 15:16, 30 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Delete Although the information is collected together, you can still find the same information in two other separate locations on wikipedia between the two national team season articles on wikipedia. I don't see the need for this. Govvy (talk) 09:32, 30 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - further to the other delete comments, I would struggle to see how such a list would ever satisfy WP:LISTN; these matches are not generally discussed as a group or even really referred to as a group. A friendly is just any non-competitive match between two teams and there is otherwise no connection between any of these matches. This is different from a list of matches in one tournament, where there is a clear connection between the matches and where, in some cases, the outcome of one match may have an effect on the outcome for teams not participating in that one match (in group stages or in terms of who to play against next in a knockout stage). There's no real connection between Ethiopia beating Malawi and then Oman having a goalless draw with Jordan 3 days later other than the fact that both games were completely inconsequential, which, in my view, is not enough of a reason to group them together in one list. Furthermore, I am struggling to see how this meets any of the purposes listed at WP:LISTPURP; it is not a valuable information source, it certainly isn't navigational (none of the individual matches are notable) and it does not aid in development of our encyclopaedia. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 09:45, 30 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Delete: per WP:INDISCRIMINATE and WP:NOT CommanderWaterford (talk) 09:53, 30 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per WP:INDISCRIMINATE, we don't need a separate article for this. The relevant information is (or at least could be) in the team pages for the countries. As they're friendlies and not a tournament like World Cup, Euros/Copa America, there is no link between friendlies, and so as per Spiderone, I cannot see how it would ever be able to satisfy WP:NLIST. Joseph2302 (talk) 10:01, 30 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - no evidence of notability. Giant Snowman 12:35, 30 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - just a list of friendlies, does not merit an article Kante4 (talk) 14:32, 31 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Dr Salvus 11:09, 1 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Everyone seems to think this is either useless and/or indiscriminate. I don't think it's either. In fact, if this 2021 version is the first of its kind on Wikipedia, I'm surprised. Assuming (and I may be wrong to do so, but in that case the article could probably be developed in that direction) this means only the official FIFA-sanctioned international friendlies, that's certainly a very clearly defined and finite list of matches, selected to suit the teams' objectives and carefully scheduled to fit within the specified friendly windows and around each team's other commitments; these matches also count towards official player statistics etc. And if you search for 'international friendlies', you get hits from the likes of BBC Sport, ESPN, The Guardian, etc., so clearly the term is used widely to refer to this set of matches. As for the argument that this information can be found elsewhere — sure, but that's true of most list-type articles; the whole point of lists is that they pull together information that is easier accessed as a list: if you know that, say, Luxembourg played a friendly against Israel in 2002, you can find that eg. in the article Luxembourg_national_football_team_results_(2000–2019), but what if you wanted to know who played friendlies against Israel that year, how easy would it be to find that information without a list like this? Finally, I don't think this is WP:CRUFT, as in "important only to a small population of enthusiastic fans": these are national teams we're talking about, not a bunch of mates playing Sunday morning footy in the park, with the matches televised and widely reported in the press. In short, I think this list is useful, the subject is notable, and with some improvements (mostly ensuring that only the official friendlies are included, and that the information is properly sourced) the article should stay. And similar articles should be created for earlier years. --DoubleGrazing (talk) 07:25, 2 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - totally indiscriminate to bundle together all friendlies played by all nations in one year. There literally isn't anything unifying this random selection of matches other than that they were not competitive matches -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 08:00, 2 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.