Talk:The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power

To Change the Main Image

Now that the second season of the Rings of Power has begun airing, I wonder if the main image of this page should be changed to the title card as it currently appears. I suggest this be done if only due to the fact that the newer title is much better looking than the previous one. Aatmik Dutta (talk) 04:30, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

Per MOS:TVIMAGE, we don't usually update the image each time the series' credits change. The article needs to reflect the whole history of the show and at the moment the new title card has only been used in two episodes. - adamstom97 (talk) 06:18, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

I see.

But I, and I'm sure many other enjoyers of the show, would much rather have the newer title card be representative of the entire show than the one used in S1. Aatmik Dutta (talk) 06:11, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

Unfortunately, we don't make decisions based on what enjoyers of the show would rather have. You either need better reasoning for this change or a lot more support from other editors. - adamstom97 (talk) 06:55, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

I just want to mildly protest that there's really no policy reason why the main image couldn't be changed to reflect the new season--but, as you say, it would require a consensus. Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 23:46, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

Fair enough. Aatmik Dutta (talk) 16:44, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

Approach to the cast lists

Background and proposal

Hi all, I have been thinking about whether we need to change our approach to the cast lists for this series since the second season started airing with some differences in how actors are credited compared to the first season. I thought it best to write out everything I have been considering and post it all here to see if anyone else has any opinions on the best way forward.

Some general context: Usually for television articles, per MOS:TVCAST, we would expect to see: a list of main/starring/series regular cast members from all seasons at this article; those from the first season at the S1 article along with any recurring or otherwise noteworthy guest stars from those episodes; the same at the S2 article; and the cast list in the infobox of each episode article would have a list of the guest stars from that episode. However, this series does not credit any actors as main/guest/co-star/etc. A similar situation has happened with the MCU shows on Disney+ and a unique approach was decided on for those articles that is detailed at WP:MCUTVCAST. It relies on the fact that some actors are credited in the main titles sequence and equates those to starring cast members and all other actors to traditional guest stars.

Crediting details for the first season: Each episode has one cast list in the end credits that lists all of the episode's actors in order of appearance. The showrunners have mentioned in interviews that there are 22 series regulars in the season, but no actors are credited as such onscreen. This Deadline article from just before the season was released has a list of 23 cast members which line up with the 23 character posters that were released for the season. Those posters can be seen on Amazon's press site under 'Key Art'; note that Joseph Mawle is listed in the Deadline article but the poster for his character is not labeled on the press site like all the others, presumably because he left the series before the first season was released and has since been recast for the second season. 38 cast members, including those 23 in the Deadline article, were officially announced by Amazon during the casting process for the show: 1 2 3. Some of those actors only have small roles in the first episode but others have recurring roles throughout the season.

The current approach, developed for the first season: The full cast list for each episode, minus any minor background characters that do not have a name (i.e. "X as a Southlander", "X as a warrior Orc"), are listed in the infobox of each episode article in order of appearance per the credits. The S1 article lists all 38 of the officially announced cast members plus Ken Blackburn—the one actor in the season not announced by Amazon who plays a character from Tolkien's lore—in order of appearance per the credits. This article lists all 23 cast members from the Deadline article in order of appearance per the credits.

Crediting details for the second season: Firstly, Amazon officially announced 18 new "recurring" cast members for the season, 1 2 3. Three noteworthy guests were also announced before the season premiered (Jim Broadbent, Olivia Williams, and Jack Lowden). Each episode lists the actors in the end credits, but with a different format from the first season. While there are still no actors in the opening title sequence, there is now a list of actors that get billed similar to the main-on-end sequence in a film before the actual cast list is shown. For example, the first episode of S2 gives single billing on screen—in order of appearance—to Charlie Vickers, Morfydd Clark, Robert Aramayo, Benjamin Walker, Daniel Weyman, Ciaran Hinds, Markella Kavenagh, Megan Richards, and Charles Edwards (all members of the 23 actor list that we currently have at this article, except for Hinds who was announced as a new recurring cast member for S2). There is then a series of names that are grouped together, like with supporting characters in a film: Jack Lowden, Ben Daniels, Sam Hazeldine, Nicholas Woodeson, Geoff Morrell, and Amelia Kenworthy (also in order of appearance and all announced as new recurring cast members for S2 except for Lowden, as mentioned, and Morrell who returned for the episode from S1). Finally there is the actual cast list which includes all the other actors in the episode, in order of appearance, including Zates Atour who is one of the new recurring cast members.

Reconsidering the current approach: As the new cast members were announced for S2, I expected that we would use the same approach as with S1: list the full episode cast list at each episode article, list all the pre-announced cast members (plus those returning from S1) at the S2 article, and only update the list at this article if we get something definitive along the lines of the Deadline article and characters posters for S1 (so far we have not). And that is what has been done currently. However, the change in onscreen credits for S2 is making me think that we need to reconsider this approach, because it certainly appears that there is a main billing list, a supporting billing list, and then an additional cast list that includes some noteworthy actors but not many. It may make sense to use an approach similar to WP:MCUTVCAST where we treat those with single billing as series regulars, those in the grouped section as guest stars, and those in the end credits list as co-stars who would only be included if found noteworthy by reliable sources. The main thing making me hesitate is that the cast members who Amazon announced as "recurring" are spread throughout all three groups, plus some of the 23 actors that we have in this article are included in the supporting list for S2 rather than the main. I am also concerned about applying the typical TV terms of "Main", "Recurring", and "Guest" where they are not supported by the series or reliable sources. But I do think a change could be warranted.

Proposal for a new approach: I think this balances the different crediting styles of each season and what our reliable sources cover.

• This article would list the 22 cast members credited on Amazon's press site (all 23 from the Deadline article minus Mawle) plus Hinds, Peter Mullan, and any other cast member that gets single billing in S2
• The S1 article would have two cast lists: "Starring", which covers the 22 cast members; and "Supporting", which includes all the other pre-announced cast members plus actors who recur in 3+ episodes
• The S2 article would have three cast lists: "Starring", which covers the cast members who get single billing; "Supporting", which covers the cast members who get grouped billing; and "Other" (open to alternative suggestions for this heading), which includes any of the end credits actors that are found noteworthy either by being in the pre-season announcements, playing a Tolkien character, or recurring in 3+ episodes
• The actors listed at this article would be removed from the infobox of each episode article just as a series regular is not expected to be in the infobox for a traditional show's episode article

I have mocked-up what the new lists at the season articles would be in my sandbox. The S2 section is based on the credits through episode 204 and will likely expand as the rest of the season is released.

- adamstom97 (talk) 13:17, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

Thoughts?

I am hoping to get opinions on whether others feel a change is unnecessary, my new proposal is the way to go, or some other alternative. Thanks, adamstom97 (talk) 13:17, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

• I'm not a watcher of this series, but everything you laid out sound reasonable to consider. Sounds like you want to take an approach similar to The Crown (see say The Crown season 2 as a season example). That series had a large main cast list credited in the opening credits, though certain episodes had single, "featured" guests credited there, so the articles here have been formatted as such. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 16:01, 7 September 2024 (UTC)
• Support adamstom97's proposal, since it seems structured, logical, and provides for each system, separating them appropriately. there is probably no catch-all sysetm for both season 1 & 2, so this is the best proposal for this so far. YodaYogaYogurt154 (talk) 15:26, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

Thanks to those who responded above. As we are days away from the second season ending and interest in the articles likely dropping off for the next few years, I am going to go ahead and implement my proposal now in case that triggers any more feedback. - adamstom97 (talk) 15:22, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

I have now made these changes. - adamstom97 (talk) 17:59, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

Pretty good modification. Adar seems to be on odd ommision.--☾Loriendrew☽ ☏(ring-ring) 18:17, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

I assume he would have been considered a starring cast member if Mawle wasn't recast based on how things were looking in the lead-up to season 1, but at this point we have Mawle's name being left off Amazon's press site and Hazeldine is definitely in the supporting category for season 2. - adamstom97 (talk) 18:41, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

• Comment - Even though they don't list the principal cast in the opening credits, any single credits for most of the episodes end with Peter Mullan getting an "and" billing after everyone else was listed first. Should something like this be done for this page and the pages for the seasons? I'm just asking here. --Rtkat3 (talk) 14:09, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

  It is unusual for TV, but a lot of films include "and" or "with" for significant cast members. It is not something that we usually include in our cast lists. - adamstom97 (talk) 15:18, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

  What would be the right resolve for the show's infobox then? --Rtkat3 (talk) 16:47, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

  I'm not sure what you mean by that. - adamstom97 (talk) 17:10, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

  You did take down the starring part of the infobox since they don't list the cast in the intro like they do with some of the shows. Perhaps we can re-add it to the cast list while the episode's cast list gets sorted in it's guest-starring section from those who are listed in the other grouping of the end credits. Wouldn't you agree? --Rtkat3 (talk) 14:50, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

  Are you saying we should add actors to the series/season infoboxes, or that we should add other actors back to the episode infoboxes? - adamstom97 (talk) 15:12, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

  Add the principal actors to the series infobox and the season infoboxes as a way to sort them from everyone else. Any new principal actor can be added in to the main page as the series progresses. Did I leave anything out? --Rtkat3 (talk) 15:32, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

  I would argue that there are too many to include in the infoboxes considering there are more than 20. I don't think there is a standard cut-off for cast members, but generally when a particular infobox field gets too long it is standard to leave them for the body of the article to explain (i.e. more than four or five editors). - adamstom97 (talk) 16:14, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Eliminating opinionated bias

This show is the subject of much controversy, and as such, this page is plagued with edits made by people with ulterior motives and agendas. For example, stating "the second season met with lower viewership than the first season", without any citations. It is possible that many of these edits are done to manipulate and shift public opinion negatively to pressure Amazon into cancelling the show moving forward. Whether the statements made are positive or negative, they should be supplied with evidence in order to pass as facts. This way we can eliminate bias of any kind.

We need more citations to ensure no bias. Broad generalized statements like "low viewership and negative critical response" without citations is the same as saying "the show is crap, but I can't say that on wikipedia, so I'll say it in a way that it'll pass the site's rules". 49.47.1.90 (talk) 19:53, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

The sentence you have provided is from the lead. The lead does not require citation to be present when the content is already sourced within the article itself, per WP:CITELEAD. You can find the source for that particular statement under "Viewership". Everything in this article has been sourced properly. -- Alex_21 _TALK 20:09, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

Cast

Adar, one of the principal characters (even more so in 2nd season) is missing from the cast list. The fact that the actor was changed between seasons is not reason to leave out of of the main characters.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  07:53, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

There is already a section above about the cast list and how it was determined. Feel free to contribute your thoughts to that discussion. - adamstom97 (talk) 07:56, 7 October 2024 (UTC)