Talk:Sydney Grammar School

2004

"two-thirds of the incoming Year 7 at College St. are from the two Preparatory Schools"

I was just wondering. If the Prep schools are about 140 boys per year, and main school is 200 boys per year, wouldn't that make the Prep schools be providing about HALF of the year 7 intake? Just curious. I realise it could be that the Prep schools have more boys at Grade 6. Yes come to think of it that seems highly likely: how very unusual for a primary school to be top-heavy. (attard); as —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 220.253.42.5 (talk • contribs) 16:56, 9 December 2004.

Correct

there are actually 180-190 boys per year in College Street. I'm a student there! Although there 140 boys in year six inluding both prep schools, about 10-15 of these would leave Grammar. The reason why there are more students in year 5 & 6 is because ten pupils enter in year 5 by acheiving good results in the entrance exam DaGizza ^{Chat (c)} 09:54, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

Its actually about 44 who enter in year 5, and class sizes in year six are between 21 and 25

NB: Class numbers at Edgecliff: T-1 1-1 2-1 3-2 4-2 5-3 6-3

I know you are not probably not going to return to this discussion but for those who will read sometime in the future need to be taught the real facts. In the St. Ives Prep school, only ten or so people enter. It appears that you were referring to Edgecliff, where I have less knowledge about and I trust that you are correct. Gizza^{Chat ©} 09:16, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

In fact the Sydney Grammar School Prep Schools COMBINED have approximately 144 students per grade. Each one has 3 6th grade classes of about 24 students. Methalos (talk) 09:11, 4 May 2009 (UTC)Methalos

Neutrality of the "Evaluation" section

I thought it was fairly obvious that the section wasn't neutral, but I'll explain:

• "Such achievement ranks Sydney Grammar as one of the best secondary schools on the continent." - Which ranking of schools would this be referring to? Wikipedia is not the place to evaluate how good a school is.
• "Sydney Grammar is the most academically proficient private school in NSW" - reference? I would've thought that would be James Ruse...

Those are the only two things I object to. So either the section needs a npov warning, or those two parts removed/edited. If you can provide a reference for the second part, then that's fine. I'm removing both, for now. - James Foster 08:22, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

James Ruse is a selective public school. I think the comment that SGS is one of the better schools in Australia is a fair comment although you are right to correct the wording. You can only really rank schools based on external assessment marks and this is no indication of actual academic proficiency. Razol2 13:31, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

its a very simple issue...leaving certificate results tell us this. (thats the HSC in New South Wales) SGS is also the only academically selective (as in you have to pass a test to get in) private boys school in NSW...and possibly Australia (though i need to research this).mpearse 23:41, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Re:Neutrality of the "Evaluation" section

Firstly, Sydney Grammar School is rated the top ranking boys private school, and the second top ranking private school in Sydney by the SMH HSC 'rank' each year, year in year out. James Ruse is NOT a private school, it is public, but selective, likes Sydney Boys High. It isnt verifiable that it is the best school academically on the continent of Australia, there is no Australia-wide rank, for all we know, Launceston High, or Wagga Wagga Boys High School could be the best, but they arnt. This is Sydney, the most competitive city academically, with the most private schools, the best schools, and the smartest students. If Grammar does well here, it does well across the country.

In Summary: SGS IS the most academically proficient private school in NSW according to the SMH HSC ranking published yearly, and since JRHS isnt a private school your example is void

SGS is among the best secondary schools on the continent because it does so well in Sydney, it must do so well nationally. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Monkeytrumpets (talk • contribs) 13:20, 26 September 2005.

Bold text REPLY I will identify who I am before I make any comments. Firstly, I have just moved to NSW after teaching overseas for 5 and a half years, including teaching in an IB world school. And I am an Australian teacher who has taught in Australia for approximately two and a half years. And all have been excellent schools!

I must question where is the basis for stating that Sydney has the ¨smartest students¨. Have you done an IQ test and compared the average IQ of Sydney students to the average IQ of students in every other capital city across the country? And why limit it to capital cities. Why not consider regional centres as well. Generalisations are wonderful, but when you are talking about things like that - I really think that you should be referring to verifiable facts!

I have a number of further questions to ask of the original contributor. 1. "Sydney has the smartest students"? Is there a national education system that I was unaware of? lol. I know that I have been away for awhile - but how can you make sweeping, generalizing statements like this?

I must apologize, but it is extremely difficult to judge whether or not the results in Sydney Private Schools are better than those say in Melbourne Private Schools or Brisbane Private Schools for that matter. That comment comes across as a rather elitist remark - that really has no basis whatsoever. So if your reference to the smartest students was based on comparing results across the country (assuming that the HSC system was a national system) then it would have validity. However, it was not based on that. Could you please tell me how you reached that conclusion. Did you do a nationwide study or has one been conducted that I am not aware of? By the way, I am not agreeing or disagreeing with the statement, just that it is one without basis. Sweeping statements are wonderful to make, but verifiable data is what really counts!

2. "Sydney has the best schools". I am not saying that they do or don't. However, what makes an exceptional school? It is obvious that the author above is talking about the best overall average HSC results in the Sydney area. That is wonderful.

Firstly, I am imagining that Sydney Grammar is a selective school. How can you possibly compare a selective school where academic merit is a very important part of the selection process to a non-selective school. I am sure that they get the pick of the best and brightest minds in Sydney. I sure hope that they get the best HSC results. It would not make sense if they didn't! Yes, I am aware that people are admitted for other reasons (I am guessing) like exceptional musical talent or exceptional sporting prowess etc. But on the whole, I am sure that academic talent is one of the key factors why most students are accepted. Please tell me if I am wrong.

Anyways, let me move on from discussing particular schools. That is besides the point as far as I am concerned.

Obviously - the original comments were made on the assumption that HSC results can tell you how good a school is! I believe that an excellent school has a lot more to do with producing wonderful, honest, caring individuals who are going to make a difference to the world (and that academics is not the only thing - although an important part). I quite frankly would rather employ a student graduating from University whose grades were not quite as good, but was obviously intelligent - and was a well-rounded individual!

Now this comment is slightly off-topic, but I am not going to apologize for it. It relates to education and that is the most important thing. Firstly, I believe that the Australian Education system needs to be nationalised. It is about time! So that there is greater consistency in education standards throughout the country.

Whether or not it is the HSC system, the VCE system or whatever the system. I personally would state (by the way - I studied in Queensland - and would have to say that I believe that the HSC system is better - but that is just a personal opinion)that the International Bacclaureate Program is the way of the future. This is not a biased perspective, as I have no reason whatsoever to promote the IB Program - have just seen education in many different systems including the public, private and international education systems in a number of countries - and believe that the IB Program is the best one around for 2 important reasons (there are others, but these are the most important ones):- 1. The IB Program is aimed at creating a well-rounded individual, not just an academically strong individual. Community Service is an important part of the IB Diploma. There is a lot more to be said, but I will leave it there.

2. The IB Program is a truly international program and provides a huge range of subject offerings. It also would allow for students to graduate from Australian High Schools with a more global perspective. I believe that this is extremely important if Australia is to continue its strong growth as a nation. We can no longer be as inward-looking as we are in many ways. I have just come back from overseas - am an Australian - and have experienced it first-hand applying for jobs in this country. I have been quite frankly shocked at the close-minded view of many employers in Sydney. And who you know is just as important as what you know many times. I am not just talking about Sydney and this is actually referring to a career outside of education. I would suggest that the majority of them were educated in Australia (however, that is just a well-educated guess). The interviewers who were from overseas were much more open-minded.

And finally, the IB Program would allow students to study in the country of their choice without any difficulties regarding conversions of grades etc. They could choose to study at Yale, Harvard, Oxford, Timbuktu, wherever. And the majority of quality universities in the world understand what a particular IB grade means. So that means that you no longer have to limit yourself to undergraduate study in Australia. Why not study overseas / if that interests you - and you/your parents have the funds (unforunately - study in many parts of the world is prohibitively expensive). The best University in Peru costs $11,000 U.S.D. per year. And Peru is a third world country. That is a scary though.

That is all. Hope that has been food for thought. Sorry for digressing from the Sydney Grammar School line of thought - but I wanted to address several of the statements made - and wanted to add some related ideas while I was taking the time to make this post. Cheers to making the Australian Education system even better!!!! By the way, I think that we should be proud of the Australian Education System, it is a strong one. However, there is still room for a great deal of improvement!!!! Cheers. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 210.10.180.204 (talk • contribs) 10:23, 18 February 2006.

Edited the "Today" section because of misinformation and concerns about neutrality. SGS isn't second to JRAHS in HSC performance, but roughly in the top 5 or 10 schools in the state. JRAHS is clearly number 1.Recurring dreams 02:27, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

NPOV

Adding to my previous comment, while I dont doubt some of the article was a tad biased, SGS is one of the best private schools. Furthermore the day's minor war over neutrality is a little petty, especially the NPOV notice. It's just an article on a school, not Palestinian terrorism. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by [[User:Monkeytrumpets |Monkeytrumpets ]] ([[User talk:Monkeytrumpets |talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Monkeytrumpets |contribs]]) 13:30, 26 September 2005.

I didn't really think of it as a "war over neutrality". I put the NPOV notice there initially because I wanted to bring the section to someone's attention, but didn't feel like changing it at the time. The other stuff you stated above is fine, as long as you realise some of it was just opinion. If it's ranked #1 by SMH, then just say that, rather than saying it is "the best school". Although it being the best school may actually be a fact, you still shouldn't state it in a way where it looks like opinion. State who regards it as the "best school", in this case, saying SMH does would be fine. (and a reference for this sort of claim would be good, too) - James Foster 08:30, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

Yes actually one must admit that it's too vague to say it's the "best school". Best in what way? You're quite right. Let's not say that it is the "best school". But SGS is objectively known to be the top in academic performance: I don't think there's really any controversy there. The controversy would be in relation to other matters. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Attard (talk • contribs) 21:22, 2 October 2005.

Crest + Photos

Can someone get a good copy of the school crest, and some good photos of the school and put them up, that'd make the article look a lot better, especially with a crest in the info box. Thanks —The preceding unsigned comment was added by [[User:Monkeytrumpets |Monkeytrumpets ]] ([[User talk:Monkeytrumpets |talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Monkeytrumpets |contribs]]) 11:34, 28 September 2005.

I downloaded a newsletter from the Grammar Website and took a printscreen of the logo. It's now up and running. I'm not too experienced with all the formatting but it seems to look fine the way I've done it anyway. Enjoy. mdmanser 23:43, 21 October 2005 (AEST)

If someone could get some photos from the recent book, "Inside Sydney Grammar School", onto the website, that would be really good. andrew rickert 08:12, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Levels of Importance

Just a little note to everyone to suggest that the SGS page not become cluttered with less important information. The University Chancellors, for example. In Australia, Chancellor is an essentially ceremonial role. Vice-Chancellor is the person actually in charge of the University. Also, are we certain that all the people in the 'Notable Alumni' section are actually significant and important people? I will assume that they are, but ask people to consider the issue.(attard)23:04, 1 January 2006

• The list of extra-curricular clubs is also becoming a spot for every man and his dog to add a name. Someone should go through and keep only the most notable clubs (eg. historical Cadets programs, strong chess team). Harro5 21:24, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

Why? Wikipedia has enough space to include as much detail as possible. As long as the clubs are organised, they should all be included in the list. Aussie-boy

That's not necessarily correct. All information on Wikipedia needs to be verifiable. So the criterion for inclusion is whether there is an independent source that we can point to that says that these clubs exist. enochlau (talk) 08:34, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes it is - if u go through the list of clubs i can tell u the name of a person in each.

All of the clubs are verifiable. And while I'm here, can I just point out to 'attard' that university hierarchies are a fair bit more complicated than they seem to think.Snell 12:46, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Merging J. T. Vallance article here

To read or take part in this discussion, please see the comments here. Harro5 06:59, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

• This discussion has now ended with a resulting redirection of the page to SGS and a paragraph on Vallance added to this page. Harro5 21:25, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

Headmasters

Well seeing as though a new "Headmasters" section has been added of late, I'd imagine it'd be appropriate to start a compilation of every headmaster that has ever been at Grammar. I found an article on Albert Bythesea Weigall, and if my memory is correct, he was the second headmaster ever at Grammar, after W. J. Stevens. If anyone knows any more, put it in here. http://gutenberg.net.au/dictbiog/0-dict-biogWe-Wy.html —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mdmanser (talk • contribs) 12:47, 24 October 2005.

Merging Headmasters Articles with SGS article was not advisable

Really sorry to be making this comment after discussion has ended, but I'd just like to say that I disapprove of the merging of the Headmasters' articles with the SGS page. I think some of the Headmasters are definitely important enough to warrant their own articles. But they should not be on the main SGS page because a visitor to the SGS page may very well not be interested in all this arcane biographical information about the headmasters. After all, they visited the page for the purpose of learning about the school, not the life and times of the headmaster. (attard - 2 January 2006)

Evaluation section

This section was extremely POV. I've bolded the POV stuff below, and italicised stuff with no references to verify claims (including unnamed people).

Sydney Grammar is the most academically proficient private school in NSW, let alone of the GPS schools, as measured by consistent performance in the Higher School Certificate.

Supporters of the school would suggest that it provides a truly intellectual grounding. Detractors of the school however, would argue that it provides a "spoon-fed" education without true independence of thought, and that its excellent examination results are merely a reflection of the extraordinary quality of the intake. Supporters would respond that this issue is lessening with time under the current Headmaster, J.T. Vallance. Dr. Vallance claims that the aim of the School is not exclusively to achieve high academic results in the HSC, but to prepare students for life by giving them a "liberal, humane, pre-vocational education", and that the diversity of the School's music, sport and extra-curricular programme is a testament to this philosophy.

Irrespective of which camp is correct, there can be little doubt that Sydney Grammar is both the most extreme and the most exceptional example of its type of school in Australia.

This section should not be re-added without references, a re-write and prior discussion on the talk page. Harro5 23:29, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

• Grammar actually is the most academically proficient private school in NSW, let alone of the GPS schools and that is measured by consistent performance in the HSC. So I think that can be legitimately mentioned. The idea of an evaluation is unnecessary though. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 60.225.76.92 (talk • contribs) 03:56, 2 January 2006.
  • Fair enough. If someone can find a rankings list like like Victorian one add it, but otherwise this is a good start. The rest should be left on the scrap heap for the moment. Harro5 07:29, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
    • The recent HSC results may be used. DaGizza 13:44, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
      • http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2005/12/16/1134703611489.html Sydney Grammar came 7th in the state, the best performing private school. monkeytrumpets 12:08, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

High Court Judges

This arose out of a discussion at Talk:Fort_Street_High_School#Count_of_High_Court_Justices. The claim that there have been 12 high court judges attend seems to be unfounded. See the list at User:Enochlau/High Court Judges. There are 7 confirmed, with 4 with unknown high schools, but since Crennan is female, that leaves at most 10 Grammarians as high court judges. Any comments? enochlau (talk) 14:01, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

All I know is that 3 of the current High Court Judges are from Sydney Grammar. DaGizza ^Chat 04:21, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

That's not possible either. Gummow is from Grammar, and the others I have schools for except for Heydon and Crennan, but Crennan is female, so that's at most 2? enochlau (talk) 04:30, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

The 12 figure came from Crikey.com's website I believe... 60.225.76.92 12:43, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Could someone please tell me how this is relevant? I fail to see the relevance of this particular point. By the way, High Court Judges are appointed by the government and are not always appointed because they are the best judges out there!!! Some may be, but politics and the old boys network plays a big part!!!! It is important that we are realistic about these things!!! I couldn't really care whether all of the High Court Judges were educated at Sydney Grammar or Nirvana State High School. It really has nothing to do with it.

I didn't go to Sydney Grammar High School. However, I assure you that life experience and what you put into your education plays just as vital a role as where you went to school!!! And your upbringing!!! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 210.10.180.204 (talk • contribs) 10:29, 18 February 2006.

It's definitely relevant - if Sydney Grammar does in fact have the highest number of high court judges attend, then that's noteworthy and should be mentioned in the article. Most Wikipedia articles on schools contain information on noteable graduates, and high court judges are definitely noteable. Also, the effort I took in counting the number of judges per school is not in an effort to glorify old-boys networks - it was to correct a glaring error, and on Wikipedia, we strive to provide the most accurate information possible. enochlau (talk) 10:54, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

I have no statistics on whether or not the greatest number of Australiah High Court Judges studied at Sydney Grammar. I will take your word for it - but that was not the point of my comment. I will accept those statistics. My point is the following. Schools in Australia and indeed around the world get extremely carried away when they refer to their most notable graduates!! I definitely believe that the school plays an important role, but nearly as important a role as the individual himself, his family upbringing, connections (yes - it does work like that in Australia to a large extent and it is extremely obvious) and drive. Whether or not you got the highest HSC result in a particular year cannot be correlated to your success in life. What about the self-made men!!!!

And it all depends on what "success" means for you!!! Does money and an important position in society mean that you have truly been successful? Sadly, it appears that mainstream society believes that is so. But to be honest, I really couldn't care how much money a person makes or how powerful or important they are, it is their contribution to society that counts. That is the most important thing!!!! I can assure you that your average sales person makes a lot more money than a teacher does. Does this mean that the sales person is more successful than the teacher. Mainstream society would suggest that it does mean exactly that. However, in the end - it all depends on your definition of "success". In the end, happiness and making a difference in the world mean a lot more (personal opinion) than whether or not you make more money or not. And you can't take your money to the grave with you anyway!!! If you are a student at Sydney Grammar that is making these comments about the judges (which I suspect you are) - take a brief moment to think about all of this!!! Because I assure you that in the end - it would be more worth your while to analyse the meaning of life, universe and everything as opposed to meaningless statistics about the number of judges that attended Sydney Grammar.

Back to the judges for the moment. You refer to Crikey.com as your official source. Is it a reliable source? Is this person an expert in the area or someone who thinks that they know what they are talking about? I hope that you have spent time on this at school - ie. just because it is on the web - doesn't mean that it is necessarily a reliable source. I could make up a website tomorrow with the number of High Court Judges that went to Nimbin State High School - and someone may be quoting my website tomorrow as their source! Just trying to get you to think a little bit about it. I am afraid that schools these days are all too focussed on whether or not students get a good HSC score - as opposed to teaching them to think for themselves. Not criticising you - just making a point. After all - that is what education is supposed to be about. Real thinking and analysing anything and everything that is put out there as "knowledge". I will leave it there. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 210.10.211.130 (talk • contribs) 08:51, 20 February 2006.

I don't see how your long diatribe has anything to do with the content of the encyclopedia article. Remember that even talk pages are not soapboxes. If you wish to remove the section on notable alumni or the statistics on the number of high court judges, I'm sorry that's just not going to happen. Wikipedia is not here to pass judgement on the life, universe and everything; we are here to present facts, and this is a salient fact to present.

Crikey.com was not my resource. In fact, it was the erroneous resource which I seeked to correct. I spent a few hours counting high court judges from a reputable source (Butterworth's legal dictionary) and I've tabulated it here: User:Enochlau/High Court Judges.

Oh, and another thing, I don't go to high school anymore, and I didn't go to Sydney Grammar when I was in high school. enochlau (talk) 09:26, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Too scary to think eh!!! Couldn't handle what I had to say - seems that it struck a raw nerve. A dangerous thing isn't it - thinking. You should try it sometime. Long diatribe - your opinion (not a fact) - but thanks anyway for your considered opinion.

Number of High Court Judges that graduated from Sydney Grammar School is in your opinion "a salient fact". That my dear friend, is merely your opinion. And the fact that you spend a number of hours counting the number of High Court Judges would tend to indicate that you need to take up a new hobby. Judge-counting is not something that counts as a hobby - at least not in my experience. And you tell me that you didn't go to Sydney Grammar. If not, you are either a staff member from there or have a vested interest. Otherwise, why would you bother?

By the way, my dear friend, if a student of mine ever used Wikipedia as a resource in an assignment, they would never be taken seriously. Nor would they be taken seriously in any reputable University in the Country. It is merely a "encyclopedia of facts" stated by people who often have a vested interest in the "facts" that they are stating. If noone else is particularly interested - then that particular point stands as a "fact". I don't remember that being an encylopedia - at least not according to the current definition of the word, unless the definition of the word has changed recently. It can be interesting at times, but there are still a lot of viewpoints expressed and it is most definitely not an encyclopedia by definition.

Are there editors out there screening content and frantically checking whether you counted the number of judges correctly? Somehow I doubt it. You refer to your comments as an encyclopedia article. Now that is a scary thought. So every man and his dog in the street can write an article for this "encyclopedia" on whatever topic they felt like - regardless of whether or not they are considered to be an expert!!! You are an absolute genius. Go ahead, continue writing your "factual" articles for the "encyclopedia". But I wouldn't put it in your resume that you wrote an article for an encyclopedia. Because you will not be taken seriously!! That is all. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 210.10.216.157 (talk • contribs) 06:46, 21 February 2006.

WP:NOT a soapbox. enochlau (talk) 09:18, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, it is for judge counters!!!! Keep up your expert opinions!!!!! Did you do a PhD in Education or was it Judge Counting. Unless you are a qualified expert, then you should not be making ¨salient facts¨ - for all the world to see in an ENCYCLOPEDIA!!! I would suggest that you are not, then maybe just a hobby as a judge counter would be better. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 61.68.29.108 (talk • contribs) 08:48, 22 February 2006.

How could the number of high court judges graduated from Sydney Grammar not be a 'salient fact'? Is being in that position a matter of opinion? Stop digging, my friend. Snell 12:44, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Author

I wouldnt mind knowing who writes the page about Grammar. Are you a student or a teacher? I know you're not some random because there's pictures from within the school in the entry. BTW I'm a student there in Yr10 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 60.225.88.25 (talk • contribs) 08:08, 14 February 2006.

Wikipedia is a collaborative effort, with hundreds of contributors. As for this article, it seems User:Monkeytrumpets took the photo, and it's also on this site according to the image description page. Harro5 08:25, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Infobox

Might I suggest using the more standard Template:Infobox Aust school box for this article? Harro5 20:52, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Fine by me. Gizza^{Chat ©} 09:08, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

I disagree. The current secondary school infobox is used standardly across GPS, CAS and ISA schools and therefore should stay. It is the most comprehensive infobox there is as per below, while the Aust school infobox is quite limited in its capacities and not very streamlined. Cheers, Jpeob 00:37, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Extra curricular list?

Would it be better to list the activities? That way it will look neater and there is more space to add further activities. Gizza^{Chat ©} 11:12, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree. But what format would we use? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Monkeytrumpets (talk • contribs) 07:32, 10 March 2006.

harro5 has deleted the list and replaced it with a rather frugal summary. I do't think this is necessary, as Wikipedia isn't limited by the confines of a volume. Why not list the activities and clubs? Snell 12:39, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Failed GA

I agree it's one of the better school articles in wikipedia but still needs work. Article needs more refrences and the 3 extrenal links refrences scattered though out thw need to be fixed to footnote form per WP:CITE. I'm sure the article can be expanded a little more also, like the History section stops in the 1860s. Also the lists need to be converted to prose style. Thanks --Jaranda ^{wat's sup} 17:43, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Why do the lists need to be converted to prose? That just makes them harder to read. Snell 12:40, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Template:Infobox Aust school private

This infobox is the most suitable for the school. I'll do it myself when I have time but anyone bold enough to do it sooner than me is of course allowed to. Gizza^{Chat ©} 10:13, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

I disagree with the proposed use of the Infobox Aust school private on Sydney Grammar School and , indeed, elsewhere. The Secondary school infobox is used standardly across the board for GPS, CAS and ISA schools as the best infobox for the respective - and indeed, all - schools. Purely because the Aust school private infobox is there does not mean that it is the best one to use for private schools: the current "Affiliations" line is better than "denomination"; "slogan" is very crass; "key people" rendered inspecific when compared to the wide options in the secondary school infobox such as "Headmaster", "Principal" and "rector"; "num_employ" is the same as "faculty" in the SSI; "revenue" is irrelevant; "products" crass and unspecific yet again (of course the products are students!); while all the rest of the lines are in the Secondary school infobox.

Cheers, Jpeob 00:21, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

School Feature articles

These four schools are FAs. They are good starting points for the Grammar article.

• Caulfield Grammar School (Australian)
• Hopkins School
• Plano Senior High School
• Stuyvesant High School

Gizza^{Chat ©} 23:59, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Fees

This article states that At $20,826 per annum (for Forms I - VI, non-boarding ), the tuition fees are the highest of any secondary day school in the country, however, Haileybury, Melbourne states that it has tuition fees ranging between $16,000 and $21,000 (Prep to Year 12) per year for day students.. are there sources to back up the claim that SGS has the highest annual non-boarding student fees in Australia?Loopla 06:10, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

---

not unless you went through every secondary school... however it has been established that Sydney is the most expensive city to live in, so presumably school fees would also be highest there. Bearing that in mind, I went on a few school sites to find fees (and this is for 6 yrs of tuition, non boarding)

Cranbrook: $121230 Reddam: $101620 Kings: $117853 Shore: $108210 Riverview: $94455 Newington: $116952 Trinity: $112570 Kincoppal: $91478 PLC Pymble: $103950 PLC Croydon: $108230 MLC Melbourne: $101825

SGS: $124956

Also, there is the fact that SGS includes camps, exursions, extra curricular activities (besides private music lessons) in the fees, while some schools charge extra. However, based purely on the stated fees, its clear that Grammar is the most expensive so far.

I couldnt find Scots, Kambala, Abottsleigh, Knox, Ascham, SCEGGS, but once these are established I think it will be safe to conclude that SGS is the dearest

---

That still doesn't deter the fact that there is at least one other school in the country claiming to have higher tuition fees. I strongly suggest that the section is re-worded to: "At $20,826 per annum (for Forms I - VI, non-boarding ), the tuition fees are the highest of any secondary day school in Sydney" untill further evidence is provided to suggest otherwise. Jason McConnell-Leech 05:10, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

One of the highest can be used until a reliable reference is found. Gizza^{Chat ©} 06:54, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

According to this article by the SMH, "Annual fees for senior students this year (2007) will be as high as $21,117 at Cranbrook, $20,967 at Kambala, $20,913 at King's and $20,826 at Sydney Grammar". Therefore, One of the highest, rather than the highest should definately be used in this article. Loopla 04:11, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

---

Except..... those schools charge different fees for each year level, and overall grammar is still the most expensive —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.172.146.245 (talk) 06:21, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Sydney Church of England Grammar School

Sydney Grammar School should not be confused with Sydney Church of England Grammar School. I really do not see the point of this statement in the lead. I don't think the two are commonly mixed up, and no other schools including the Sydney Church of England Grammar School have such a qualifying statement in their lead. Will remove. Recurring dreams 08:04, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree and thank you for removing the statement. Adding the statement may ironically confuse the reader even more! Have a nice day. Gizza^{Chat ©} 10:58, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

WP Schools Assessment

(Top/Start) I have given this article a rating of Top Importance and start class. It is nearly a B-class, it just needs some tidying up, and more references. Top importance given the extensive alumni, the history of the school, and its place in Australian education. Twenty Years 05:00, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Not Selective School

As per Selective school (New South Wales), even though SGS may select students based on academic ability, it is not a selective school, which in NSW is restricted to government schools to which entry is achieved via the selective schools test. 124.184.116.235 (talk) 09:51, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

The school requires students to gain over a certain mark in an entrance exam before they are considered for admission (enrolment details are here). I shall change it to Selective school rather than Selective school (New South Wales) if it helps. The New South Wales article is clearly not broad enough (or incorrectly titled) and only covers government selective schools, when there is clearly atleast one independent selective school in the state. Loopla (talk) 10:10, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Auditorium

In 2007, the headmaster announced the construction of a new auditorium at the College Street Campus. Perhaps this should be given a mention?Thevas (talk) 10:18, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Palladium

I'm not sure about the (old) Palladium building being a postal sorting office - it may have been, but it used to be a roller skating rink (whence the name), with the floorboards being laid such that their long edge was always in the direction one traversed the room (i.e., they formed an ellipse). When the classrooms were put in this led to some of the classrooms having floorboards that were not in line with the classroom walls. This building was replaced in the mid-seventies by the New Palladium building, with the gym on the top floor (which used to get unbearably hot, even in winter) and the library on the ground floor (which flooded the first time there was major rain, due to the courtyard outside having inadequate drainage). As I recall, there was also a brothel visible from the windows of some of the classrooms in the new Palladium, on Yurong St..... we weren't allowed to go out there, or even to Beppi's :-( Incywebb (talk) 07:44, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Subjects Offered

Okay the article states that we offer Standard English, when we do no such thing. Some fob included Standard English in the list of subjects offered and I am removing it now.....no-one was offered to do anything other than English Advanced for this year, and that's how it has worked for many years. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.242.89.151 (talk) 10:00, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

I am an old boy of the school, and 20 people took Standard English in my year.--60.240.34.106 (talk) 04:33, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Edit request from Sydgramhelpdesk, 11 June 2010

{{editsemiprotected}} This page has been vandalised. Please change the test in Paragraph two from liberal, inhumane, pre-vocational pedagagy to liberal, humane, pre-vocational education. Many Thanks Sydney Grammar School IT department

See Sydney Grammars Web Page, Headmasters Address at http://www.sydgram.nsw.edu.au/CollegeSt/home.html Sydgramhelpdesk (talk) 00:34, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

 Done There was a bit more vandalism than that lurking in the article, so I've reverted back to an earlier version of the article. —C.Fred (talk) 00:40, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

Pending changes

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Note that I am not involved in this project any much more than any other editor, just posting these notes since it is quite a big change, potentially

Regards, Rich Farmbrough, 00:14, 17 June 2010 (UTC).

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'The Sydneian' publications

I think that the article could do a lot better with more pictures and more on the history of Grammar. I don't have the time but would someone that could please add some pictures from some of the publications of 'The Sydneian': http://www.sydgram.nsw.edu.au/currentfamilies/publications/the-sydneian/publications/

There's especially a lot from the centenary publication in 1957 http://www.sydgram.nsw.edu.au/files/thesydneian/1950-1959/The_Sydneian_CENTENARY_1957.pdf

Pyrimethamine

A group of SGS students are getting media attention for their preparation of the medication pyrimethamine, as described in the following article: Davey, Melissa (December 1, 2016). "Australian students recreate Martin Shkreli price-hike drug in school lab". The Guardian. Retrieved December 1, 2016. Not sure whether it is worth including in some way, but here it is if anyone wants to make use of it. EdChem (talk) 02:31, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

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• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070927080732/http://www.sydneymedia.com.au/html/3039-dive-into-spring.asp to http://www.sydneymedia.com.au/html/3039-dive-into-spring.asp

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Tone of the Alumni/Co-curricular section

• 'Edit war' with TobeFree has been resolved . There was an edit war because I initially misunderstood how to comment and talk with others (first time editing), but that has since been resolved as you can see by lots of allowed edits and my talk with ToBeFree .
• Tone : It is not 'promotional' I think (like PMs, Rhodes Scholars, Music etc.), it is just stating facts which happen to accurately reflect the quality of the school (any 'promotion' one may perceive incidental to that is appropriate, it is still being objective and stating the truth). I have spent hours upon hours fastidiously checking these facts. Please note however, if one believes this is 'promotional', many many other school pages would be 'very promotional' as one could term it like Eton College and Scotch College, i.e. for Eton College, Eton has educated 19 British prime ministers and generations of the aristocracy and has been referred to as the chief nurse of England's statesmen.[4]' https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eton_College . Before one edits the tone here, please consider the viability of this applying to other school pages and the approach of schools or institutions discussing their alumni generally.

Academic Boosterism violates NPOV

Hello. I know that many of you editors are in some way related to this school, perhaps as current or former students, and want to tell everyone how great this school is. Wikipedia is not the place to do that. One of the fundamental principles of Wikipedia is to write with a Neutral Point of View (see WP:NPOV) and it doesn't do this school and favours when this page sounds like a giant advertisement. Please also avoid academic boosterism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Avoid_academic_boosterism).

As such, headings such as "Australia's Top Music School" are completely inappropriate. Please don't do this. Harry585 (talk) 12:46, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

Also heaps of primary sources that don't directly verify source Bumbubookworm (talk) 18:18, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

NPOV

Article (and this seems to be a trend over the years) contains highly biased language, as well as preference towards statistics of a certain year not providing a holistic understanding of the school's performance. Additionally, significant amounts of information does not seem relevant or substantive to the article (including the Clubs and Structure sections), Bwibble (talk) 10:07, 22 October 2024 (UTC)