Talk:Shawnee on Delaware, Pennsylvania

Shawnee on Delaware, Pennsylvania has been listed as one of the Geography and places good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Review: March 31, 2014. (Reviewed version).

Indigenous peoples of North America Low‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Indigenous peoples of North America, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Native Americans, Indigenous peoples in Canada, and related indigenous peoples of North America on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Indigenous peoples of North AmericaWikipedia:WikiProject Indigenous peoples of North AmericaTemplate:WikiProject Indigenous peoples of North AmericaIndigenous peoples of North America
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Ethnic groups Low‑importance

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Ethnic groups, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of articles relating to ethnic groups, nationalities, and other cultural identities on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Ethnic groupsWikipedia:WikiProject Ethnic groupsTemplate:WikiProject Ethnic groupsEthnic groups

Low

This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

WikiProject Ethnic groups open tasks:

Here are some open WikiProject Ethnic groups tasks:

Meta-tasks:
- Place the {{Ethnic groups}} template on the talk page of articles within the scope of this project.
- Resolve the disparity in importance rankings among different ethnic groups
Articles about ethnic groups that currently have issues needing resolution:
Start an article:
- Wikipedia:WikiProject Ethnic groups/Article requests

Feel free to edit this list or discuss these tasks.

Pennsylvania Low‑importance

	Pennsylvania portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Pennsylvania, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Pennsylvania on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PennsylvaniaWikipedia:WikiProject PennsylvaniaTemplate:WikiProject PennsylvaniaPennsylvania
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Shawnee on Delaware, Pennsylvania/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Caponer (talk · contribs) 22:27, 27 March 2014 (UTC) This is a very interesting subject, and I look forward to reviewing this article in the coming days. -- Caponer (talk) 22:27, 27 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

Is it reasonably well written?
A. Prose is "clear and concise", without copyvios, or spelling and grammar errors:

B. MoS compliance for lead, layout, words to watch, fiction, and lists:
Is it factually accurate and verifiable?
A. Has an appropriate reference section:

B. Citation to reliable sources where necessary:

C. No original research:
Is it broad in its coverage?
A. Major aspects:

B. Focused:
Is it neutral?
Fair representation without bias:
Is it stable?
No edit wars, etc:
Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?
A. Images are tagged with their copyright status, and valid fair use rationales are provided for non-free content:

B. Images are provided if possible and are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions:
Overall:
Pass or Fail:

Dr. Blofeld, this article looks like it definitely meets the criteria above for Good Article status! I've conducted a thorough review and have a few suggestions and comments that I'd like to share with you here. These are merely suggestions so please let me know if you have any questions about or issues with the below comments! -- Caponer (talk) 01:21, 28 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

In the first sentence within the lead, should there be some mention that the village is unincorporated?

Done

What would you think of adding a sentence from the Location section to the first paragraph of the lead? Perhaps a mention of its relation to the Poconos and the Shawnee Mountain Ski Area.

Agreed, yup

Done

Also, the mention of the "largest red cedar tree" in Pennsylvania seems like a notable factoid to place in the lead at a place of your choosing.

Agreed, yup

Done

Under the Location section, you may want to link The Shawnee Inn & Golf Resort to "Shawnee Inn golf course."

Done

For the Location section, you may also want to look up what USGS topographic map covers the Shawnee area so that you can use it to source a lot of the locational information. Just as an example, take a look at the USGS reference I utilized in Old Pine Church#Geography--I found the Bushkill USGS map that covers Shawnee here It's available for free download. Here's the reference:
- Bushkill Quadrangle, Pennsylvania – New Jersey (Map). 1 : 24,000. 7.5 Minute Series (Topographic). United States Geological Survey. 2002. OCLC 859323170.

Unfortunately link says 500 internal error and shows up nothing. Perhaps it's only available to people in the US? I can ask @Rosiestep: to look at it if you like. I think I can add a few more nearby places for reference from google maps though.♦ Dr. Blofeld 11:19, 28 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Link says 500 Internal Server Error for me, too. --Rosiestep (talk) 14:27, 28 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Capitalize mentions of "island" in "Shawnee island and Depuy island."

Done

Wikilink Seabee under History section.

Done

This may be an American English thing, so it is merely a suggestion, but after "In 1913" and "In 1904," should there be a comma?

Done♦ Dr. Blofeld 11:08, 28 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - Sorry to chime in here, but I've been interested in place GA's for a bit. I do have a question, the history section seems to be close to just sprinkling factoids and other pieces of information without much sense. This section "Lime, produced by burning limestone, was used to neutralize acidity and improve the fertility of the soil. One of the local farmers built a lime kiln into a slope on his property; the kiln on John Turn Farm is well-preserved and is listed as a historic place.[7][8]" is really just hanging with no explanation or connection. Then it bounces to "Charles Campbell Worthington", with no reason and bounce around a bit before getting to WCSD-LP (104.9 FM) in the next paragraph. In fact, I am more shocked by this rampant changing than anything else, it seems that the Worthington and general articles in the area got put together with some snippets of local history. This is not what I really expect from a GA... it doesn't even detail the history, administration or even population. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 02:28, 28 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

It's a tiny village Chris. And a very comprehensive account of it from what I can see. History and landmarks is sufficient IMO for such a place. Show me the sources which document its local administration, sport, culture, transport etc like you'd see in a city article of mine like Aalborg and I'll add it. Find me a population figure and I'll add it. We can only go on what is covered in sources and most sources barely mention anything about this place which is why it might look like fact collecting. Msambweni doesn't have any history or other information about it in sources either. If there's no other information which can be used to fill it out I'm not sure how you think it can be improved. My feeling on this is that it's barely more than a hamlet and has a fairly decent enough coverage of its history and landmarks, even if it might look a bit sporadic in parts. I agree on the lime and radio standing out though so I've refactored the structure to make it look less so. We have minor US roads on here passing GA all the time which are completely devoid of history and real information other than a route description using maps. A lot of the smaller US localities/unincorporated communities barely have more than a few scraps in google books on them. I'd say relatively speaking this is pretty decent for such a small place, you can't possibly compare it to a large US city or town.♦ Dr. Blofeld 10:44, 28 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

ChrisGualtieri, I appreciate your taking the time to review and comment on this article in this GAR forum! It is always great and much appreciated to have another pair of eyes on an article's review, especially those of an editor of your distinguished calibre. I concur with Dr. Blofeld that smaller, less populated, and/or unincorporated communities should be judged by a slightly different set of criteria than those of populated places that are larger, more populated, and have substantial governmental structures. You'll notice that I almost exclusively create and maintain articles related to West Virginia, mostly because it does not have a robust editor presence here, and its local histories haven't been as well documented or publicized as local histories elsewhere in the United States. West Virginia is a predominantly rural state that consists of a patchwork of communities like Shawnee on Delaware. It is possible for a smaller community to be represented by a Good Article when that article has made a noticeable attempt to encompass all the available knowledge/information of that place in a well-written format. If it is impossible for a smaller community like Shawnee on Delaware to have an article reach Good Article status, thousands of Wikipedia articles illustrating small communities throughout the United States have no opportunity to reach for a higher classification, even if their content is comprehensive. For this reason, I mirror Dr. Blofeld's feelings regarding every state highway (and in some cases, county highways) receiving a rubber stamp through the Good Article review process because there is a brief history, brief route description, and a listing of intersections. I picked New York State Route 326 randomly from the GA transportation list as an example... and there are hundreds more like this, and it has far less information than Shawnee on Delaware. Shawnee on Delaware meets GA criteria, but I admit that it certainly has room to grow should additional information become available regarding its history and culture. Again, I appreciate your insight on this issue, and I am glad that you shared your thoughts here! It looks like Dr. Blofeld has addressed most of your concerns regarding the flow and content of the History section. Thanks again! -- Caponer (talk) 12:12, 28 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Dr. Blofeld, ChrisGualtieri does raise a good point regarding the government that I neglected to mention in my comment above. Would it be possible to add in a blurb regarding the fact that Shawnee on Delaware is subordinate to the local government of Smithfield Township, Monroe County, Pennsylvania and the county government of Monroe County, Pennsylvania? It may not have a municipal or governmental structure of its own, but it does fall under the leadership of these administrative districts. Is this doable? -- Caponer (talk) 12:17, 28 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Yes that would be worthy of mentioning, I've added a short paragraph. Can somebody find a population figure? I agree that would be good if possible.♦ Dr. Blofeld 12:32, 28 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I added the population, and there is plenty of data which seems to come from good sources at

http://www.usa.com/shawnee-on-delaware-pa-weather.htm which covers the basics of almost any city or other area. Other data from http://zipcode.org/city/PA/SHAWNEEONDELAWARE lists the income data and household value. You have numerous entries on the HAER and other historical and important details - each of which is fast becoming my Wikipedia research focus - numerous buildings are all detailed in the records. Just go to here and look around a bit. The River School house was constructed in 1888 and was demolished sometime after 1970, but the properties its connected to are historical itself (HABS PA-1164) and north of it several more are all detailed including from the 1700s. Numerous barns, still standing, are indicative of the style and should at least be mentioned. Just quick google searchs get a bunch of stories, some better than others, that contribute (and are backed up by HAER and other documents) here and a good one here, a scrap or two here. Yes, its a small town, but put it all together and you could get a fairly good "history of" page out of it. The historical conservation group is not really online well, but it is here. Already, massive changes to the structure and flow of the area has been made, which is great. As the issues get resolved, I think it becomes more and more of a GA in terms of thoroughness and usable data. Keep it up! ChrisGualtieri (talk) 15:01, 28 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Great, feel free to help add new stuff.♦ Dr. Blofeld 16:34, 28 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

- I did add the population, but I'll leave it to you to tweak the rest. I am quite pleased that the changes were so quick and effective. I think Wikipedia needs more coverage of HAER documented places, but I'm going to go with the National Register of Historic Places for now. I don't want to get bogged down and updating another geographical area I am unfamiliar with! ChrisGualtieri (talk) 16:38, 28 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The source you say which is good above is actually about the tribes not the village. The first source is good though I'll take a look at that.♦ Dr. Blofeld 17:25, 28 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

@Caponer: I've added new info from those sources, should be OK now. ♦ Dr. Blofeld 21:29, 28 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I like it now! This is very much improved and a much better overview with a few possible jumping points for future coverage. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 05:37, 29 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Dr. Blofeld, you've done an outstanding job! This article now easily meets the criteria for GA status and I hereby pass it! -- Caponer (talk) 04:12, 31 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Dr. Blofeld and Rosiestep, regarding the above broken link, the USGS makes it hard to link to any of their sites as the addresses are always changing. If you go to The USGS Store and click on "Map Locator & Downloader" and search for the Bushkill PA/NJ map, you should be able to find the above map. -- Caponer (talk) 04:18, 31 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]