Talk:Pale of Settlement

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Danny, what is the Russian word for which "Pale" is the translation? It might be worth mentioning that Pale is an Anglo-French word (from the Latin palus, a stake, related to palisade and to paling), that the original Pale was the "English Pale" around Calais in the 15C, and that the term was then transferred to the area of English settlement in Ireland in the 16C. (Hence the expression "beyond the Pale.") I'm curious to know who decided to apply this word to Russia, and when. Adam 16:12, 8 Nov 2003 (UTC)

The expression "beyond the pale" probably did not come from either the Irish nor the Russian Pale. The Oxford English Dictionary says "The theory that the origin of the phrase relates to any of several specific regions, such as the area of Ireland formerly called the Pale (see sense 4b) or the Pale of Settlement in Russia (see sense 4c), is not supported by the early historical evidence and is likely to be a later rationalization." --ABehrens (talk) 16:52, 28 June 2019 (UTC)

Hi, Adam. I checked with our historian of Russian Jewry, who gave me the Russian term: cherta osedlosti. According to him, cherta means literally "line." As "Pale" the term has been around for at least one hundred years. It appears in the 1916 translation of Dubnow's History of the Jews in Russia and Poland. My guess would be that they borrowed it from the Irish incident, but as of yet I have no evidence to back that up. Hopefully Jtdirl or some other Irish specialist can enlighten us more. Danny 03:25, 11 Nov 2003 (UTC)

According to the OED, earliest use of "Pale of Settlement" in English is Russia and the Jews : a brief sketch of Russian history and condition of its Jewish subjects, 1890. --ABehrens (talk) 16:52, 28 June 2019 (UTC)

An email from a colleague at work: I did not find an answer yet, but I found out that the full name was "cherta postoiannoi evreiskoi osedlosti" - "Pale of the Permanent Jewish Settlement." I have an article in Russian with me which tells about the formation of the Pale. It does not give the name who and when coined the term, but provides a lot of interesting information. We can look at it together. As you can see, the answers are on the way. Danny 02:50, 12 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Stranger yet, google translates in Serbian Черта́ осе́длости as "The devil's traits", in Russian as "Damn sadness", Czech or Slovak as "fertilizers", Kyrgyz or Kazakh as "damn the sedentary", and Hebrew and Yiddish as "port services"

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Hi, excuse me for not creating a new section on this talk page. I don't know how to do this as I am not a regular contributor. If anyone here knows how, please fell free to do so. I am writing to point out a few serious mistakes in the text. Firstly, there is the reference to Russia's "military and diplomatic maneuvers" as having started in 1791. In fact the first chunks of territory that later formed part of the PS were annexed by Russia following the First Partition of Poland in 1772. This first chunk included small pieces of Russian territory proper (as we would call it today) but most of it was territory presently found in Belarus. The Second Partition is what the date of 1791 corresponds to and this is when the bulk of the Jewish population was absorbed into Russia. The Third Partition, liquidating the Polish-Lithuanian state altogether, came in 1793. The PS corresponds largely to former Polish-Lithuanian territory taken over successively in the three partitions. South-Eastern Ukraine's inclusion on the map of the PS was most largely due to the fact that this was the only territory in Russia prior to the three partitions that had a sizable Jewish population. This area had also been part of the P-L Commonwealth until 1667, when it was acquired by Russia at the Treaty of Andrusovo. The second error is the reference to those territories "largely Catholic and Jewish population". This is misleading as both Catholics and Jews were a small minority in all regions of the Pale of Settlement. In its northern half, the population (Belarussians were, by far, its largest component) was predominantly Eastern Orthodox. The Lithuanians and Poles were this area's only Catholics and came a distant second. In the southern half, the bulk of the population was Ukrainian and either Greek Catholic (most of them) or also Eastern Orthodox. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.36.175.147 (talk) 09:45, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

(Added belated new section for this comment. NewkirkPlaza (talk) 03:29, 26 November 2020 (UTC))

Ad hominem attack

In an anonymous revision (re: Khazars). Real brave — I must say.

Baltics

What was the status of Jews in Baltic regions, other than Lithuania? I.e., how was it in what is now Latvia, Estonia an Finland? mikka (t) 02:20, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Life in the Pale

Although the article directs you to History of the Jews in Poland and History of the Jews in Russia and the Soviet Union, those articles really don't say much about life in the Pale. Therefore I added a few paragraphs, which could of course be expanded. The reference to Sholom Aleichem as being the portrayer of "Life in the Pale" is pretty ironic, since he satirized religious Jews, who made up a large proportion of the Pale population. Yoninah 21:43, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Western Russia? & map reliability altogether

Looking at the map, it looks as though the border of the Pale corresponded fairly well to the present-day border between Belarus and Russia, and that in the Ukraine the border of the Pale was well to the west of the present day Ukraine-Russian border. Was there really very much of western Russia within the Pale of Settlement? john k 18:09, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

This map does not provide sufficient detail to be reliable or coherent. At the very least, the borders of the variously coloured fields should be defined (i.e., those territories should be named). The actual 1905 source map is referenced as an "other version," so the missing data is definitely available. Without it, the map could be argued to be misleading, and thus should be deleted. 68.148.52.166 (talk) 04:19, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

Jew outside the Pale

History of the Jews in Latvia claims that descendants of Jews who were resident in the Baltic provinces before they were annexed to the Russian Empire were permitted to remain legally, as were a few others. Can we get a section on this? (I've added it to my to-do list, but realistically, I don't expect to get the majority of my to-do list done ever.) --Quintucket (talk) 08:22, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

incomplete

You need to discuss registration, passports, and what happened to people caught outside the Pale -- jail, expulsion, exile to Siberia, what? You need to discuss why poverty was rampant -- was it a case of supply, was it a case that the Pale included no arable land, what? You need to discuss cases when Jews got permission to live outside the Pale; this was crucial in the Mendel Beilis trial, the transcripts of which I'm translating from online. 71.163.114.49 (talk) 15:25, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

Since you are obviously a specialist in this area, why not contribute something to the article yourself? Bluap (talk) 17:01, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

Support for the poor

It is said: "Lithuanian and Ukrainian Jews supported as much as 22% of their poor populations."

What does that mean? Does it mean that 78% of the poor population had to do without support? Does it mean that 78% of the population was not poor?

It's not possible for me to find out what is meant, because this assertion lacks any citation - someone apparently pulled it out of their fundamental orifice. MrDemeanour (talk) 11:34, 1 May 2016 (UTC)

I guess it is about the poorest of poor. But there is a footnote. Anyway, I agree it is strange number: What is "poor"? - üser:Altenmann >t 03:17, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

The focus of this article is on the hideous treatment of the Jewish population in the Pale of Settlement. I find, though, that the severe economic oppression also effected the poor, non-Jewish population as well. My entire Lutheran family fled the region for Cleveland, Ohio, USA in three shifts, from 1892 to 1898. I in no way want to diminish the pain visited upon the Jewish people, but hey, they were all in it together.

Thank you for your time, Wordreader (talk) 00:28, 2 May 2021 (UTC)

Changes on map

Changes which were done on September 24nd 2017 are not correct. Livonia and Courland were never part of Pale of Settlement. Congress Poland was also not included into Pale of Settlement. Velirand (talk) 11:46, 28 September 2017 (UTC)

Why couldn't Jews farm?

"Most Jews could not engage in agriculture due to the nature of the Pale"

What does this uncited statement mean? This area is nowadays known for its agriculture (e.g. Belarus, Ukraine). Why couldn't it be farmed during the time of the Pale? Or were Jews prohibited from farming?

I really feel this needs clarification.

Marchino61 (talk) 05:30, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

Glad I'm not the only one who nooticed this very strange claim.

There is a long history of the Imperial Russian government trying to entice jews to turn to agriculture, and offering huge economic incentives to move into the area of modern Ukraine.

There is even a Wikipedia article on the topic. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_agricultural_colonies_in_the_Russian_Empire

At the very least, this silly claim needs to be struck from this article. More appropriate would be to reference the article on jew agricultural colonies and mention how the Imperial government tried very hard to get the jews to take up fieldwork, obviously within the Pale of Settlement. 96.237.143.207 (talk) 21:35, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

Reference to extent of pogroms

There is a [reference needed] in the section "Jewish life in the Pale", end of second paragraph, mentioning the extent of the pogroms of 1881--1883, and 1903--1907. I suggest "The Gates of Europe: a history of Ukraine" by Serhii Plokhy, 2021, Basic Books, ISBN 978-0-465-09486-8. Pages 189--191 mentions the extent of death, injury, and damage in the 1905 pogrom in particular in Kyiv, and that pogroms also took place in Katerynoslav and Odesa: "Thousands were injured, and tens of thousands of Jewish homes and enterprises were destroyed." TEBco (talk) 03:32, 13 May 2023 (UTC)