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Please Merge with Industrial Metal

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This "subgenre" was clearly "invented" to describe one or two bands that never maintained any popularity. Please see this as a reason to merge this article in to the article for Industrial Metal, as a subcategory. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.243.180.105 (talk) 15:00, 28 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Right, because Rammstein selling over 15 million records worldwide clearl isn't maintaining any popularity at all. --Veyneru (talk) 19:06, 9 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
while the "never maintained popularity" bit is ludicrous, the essence of his message still holds true. "neue deutsche härte" is not a genre, just a media labeling of german industrial metal/nu metal songs by specific bands. this really doesnt deserve an article of its own --92.193.9.243 (talk) 22:13, 8 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, but the idea that NDH even remotely resembles nu-metal is laughable. I can't get my head around the idea that anyone would think that nu-metal bands like Linkin Park, SOiL, Taproot etc have any sort of resemblance to the likes of Rammstein and Oomph! They both gained popularity in the Anglosphere around the late 1990s/early 2000s, but that's literally it. Oh yes, and nu-metal is occasionally spelt with an umlauted U as well. Eddiehimself (talk) 23:27, 27 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Did you ever listen to Industrial metal? NDH is completely different. It uses electronic elements, yes, but these elements aren't (Electro-)Industrial. Most NDH bands, such as Rammstein, use Techno-/Dance elements or elements of some other Electronica styles. It's unrelated to the classical Skinny Puppy/Ministry harsh electronic sound.

Moreover, the riffs are different... more like Alternative/Groove metal riffs, less traditional Thrash metal/Noise rock.

"Dance Metal" isn't Industrial metal. And that's a fact. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.134.20.174 (talk) 19:52, 11 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

NDH might be a subgenre of Industrial Metal, but it certainly is notable by itself. NDH is unique because it plays on the guttural qualities of the German language, combined with a deep male voice, to produce a distinct type of vocal sound within the Metal genre. Trying to dismiss NDH as being simply the "German version" of Industrial Metal is culturally ignorant: if we were to go down that path for the rest of Wikipedia, we might as well get rid of the page for Spaghetti and merge it into the "Italian version" of noodles. Another thing: there are already two discussion topics with this exact theme on this page. Creating a third when you could just have easily voiced your views in either of the pre-existing topics is quite frankly attention-seeking. Now I hope we can finally put this topic to bed. Eddiehimself (talk) 23:27, 27 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Untitled

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I pretty much looked at the German wikipedia article as reference. Please add whatever you feel is needed to improve this article. -Iopq 10:29, 22 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Common Characteristics

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The list is largely based on the group "NDH - Neue Deutsche Haerte" from last.fm--I can't think of a group of people who would know more about the genre. I made this list from characteristics I noticed in the most popular german bands on that list--Rammstein, Oomph, Eisbrecher, Megaherz, and Unheilig. I posted the list there first, and it seemed to be generally accepted. Leptogenesis (talk) 23:37, 19 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

A LastFM discussion is not a reliable source. I'm going to start eliminating original research. Aryder779 (talk) 15:55, 5 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Isn't this the same thing as Industrial metal?

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I always thought of Rammstein as industrial metal.

This is more specific. If you listen to Ministry (band) they have a slightly different style with different vocals like screaming instead of clean singing. Also, Rammstein tends to use low BPM, while other industrial metal bands are faster. These features are shared by many German bands. Plus, the article exists in the German Wikipedia, I just translated it with a dictionary and wrote a summary of what I could understand. -Iopq 08:58, 5 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
It might be of benefit to look at Industrial Music and look at the definition(s) there. Here are some characteristics of just Industrial music.
  1. Being created for a new generation of people.
  2. Normally a darker atmosphere.
  3. Digital editing with samples, clips, etc.
  4. Use of new, experimental, "gritty," or "hands-on" methods/technology to create the music.
  5. Music that can be called out of the norm.
So they are definitely Industrial. Next we need to see the definition of Industrial Metal. "Industrial metal is a musical genre that draws elements from industrial rock and heavy metal music. Industrial metal music is usually centered around metal guitar riffs and industrial rock synthesizer/sequencer lines, heavily distorted, very low pitched guitars, as well as harsh vocals, but in some instances can have clean vocals."
If you do more digging, you find that Ministry is under a sub-genre of Industrial Metal called Coldwave (USA) and that there are too many sub-genres to easily say something is not Industrial by comparing it to select sub-genres.
I would say it would be fair to refer to NDH as Industrial. By definition it overlaps so much it would be hard to deny that it is Industrial.
Last thing: There is a part in Industrial Metal that does refer to NDH under "Later Developments." This is quoted from there: "More recently, groups like Rammstein and Oomph! have taken inspiration from electronic music as well as industrial and hard rock to create a new genre called Neue Deutsche Härte (New German Hardness)[citation needed] or what Rammstein describe as "Tanz-Metall" or "dance metal"[citation needed]."
So the question is should we consider this an Industrial Genre? I would say it falls under that. I'll wait to see what other say about this. In the meantime, I'll clearly put in that NDH is inspired by Industrial Metal along with electronica, metal, etc. Xe7al (talk) 12:26, 1 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Why is there even this category in the first place, while reading it, it was ALL the same as [industrial] to me ?! --67.212.22.44 (talk) 11:51, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

All the listed stylistic origins were part of [Industrial Metal] ; this is also listed as a derivative of it. I see no reason why it isn't a subgenre or rework of it. --DynV (talk) 23:28, 22 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

setting aside the pretentious definitions that xe7al has, industrial metal is essentially electronica & metal combined, which pretty much describes what rammstein is all about. in the end, the language used is irrelevant since the music isn't affected by that and "neue deutsche härte" just isnt a legitimate genre in itself, its just industrial metal (and fyi, this is coming from a german guy. if not even we believe this is a real genre, then who exactly do you think you're kidding?) --92.193.9.243 (talk) 22:21, 8 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

L'Ame Immortelle

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I don't see how this is stylistically connected. -Iopq 12:02, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Although L'Ame Immortelle's earlier music would be closer to EBM, their newer stuff includes guitars and that 'german hardness'. i quote 'Kraushofer and Rainer recruited Ashley Dayour as a guitarist' check out Stumme Schreie and 5 Jahre to see their new appraoch. and remember Oomph originally did not have guitars either before taking their a new approach --Sic one 18:00, 26 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

KMFDM

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How and where exactly does KMFDM fit into this genre? They've been recording since 1984 (earlier than the apparent founding of this genre) and have incorporated dozens of genres throughout their career. Each album is typically quite different (stylistically) from the previous. I'm not arguing that they be removed from the article--I'm just wondering if there is a particular album or single that tags them as NDH-metal. I'd like to incorporated this into the KMFDM article if necessary. --buck 16:47, 25 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The same can be argued about Die Krupps, who formed in 1980. --68.13.244.167 12:53, 1 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Disputed status as NDH

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One of the unregistered editors had a problem with several of the bands that I'd added to the list, so rather than endlessly changing the list I thought we could discuss it here.

All of the bands that I added to that list (excepting a_Life[Divided]) are listed on the German page on NDH, and beyond that, several of the more well known bands removed (Subway to Sally, Tanzwut, In Extremo) are often listed as NDH on German websites (amazon.de, for one) While I'll agree that Subway to Sally's earlier work is most definitely not NDH, Engelskrieger and Nord Nord Ost definitely do fit into this category, as does In Extremo's more recent releases (tracks like Horizont or Poc vecem from Mein Rasend Herz), and of course Tanzwut's work has generally been classified as NDH. Just about any track from their most recent release, Schattenreiter, could fall easily into the genre.

I'm happy to have a dialogue about this, so if you feel that I'm completely off base here I'd be happy to have you tell me why. Tev 04:26, 1 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Die apokalyptische reiter isn't NDH. --78.12.8.78 (talk) 00:10, 17 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What about Ruoska? they sound almost like Rammstein but they sing it in Finnish. −₪ÇɨгcaғucɨҲ₪ kaiden 02:09, 17 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Tev, Subway to Sally and In Extremo are in no way NDH. They are folk and/or medieval. Just because they sing in German don't automatically make them NDH, just like how bands like Die Prinzen and Ich + Ich are NOT NDH. Hydroracee (talk) 18:55, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Eisbrecher and Reifenstahl are NDH Bands as well Andy_Howard (talk) 10:56, 20 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah just because they sing in German doesn't mean they are NDH. Nena for example. Andy_Howard (talk)

Die Krupps isn't NDH. They are as mentioned above EBM(Early) and Industrial Metal(later) FredrikJambren (talk) 14:29, 21 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

What should be considered NDH

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Should we only be counting bands that come from German speaking countries, or bands that sing in German, or...? Lately there have been some additions that, while stylistically they qualify as NDH, are either singing in an unrelated language or are from a country that doesn't have German as an official language. Any thoughts? Tev 03:57, 17 June 2007 (UTC) So could Laibach be considered NDH? They're not German but they sing in German amd Rammstein site them as a major influence. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.44.226.194 (talk) 21:57, 16 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Well, seeing as NDH means "new German hardness", it would make sense that NDH bands speak German, if not come from a German speaking country. Laibach could be considered NDH according to certain characteristics, but since many of the major NDH bands were created in the 90's, should bands from the 90's/2000's be considered NDH, or bands that fall under that category in general?71.212.184.18 (talk) 07:11, 23 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

IPA?

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As this is German I wouldn't wonder when a lot of people have problems pronouncing it so phonetics would be very useful.

In Extremo, Subway to sally....?

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I always thought that was folk-metal.....at least In Extremo

I am sick of re-editing the NDH list to exclude these two bands. Someone keeps changing it. They really ARE folk metal despite what some lists say when you do a google search says. People should listen to a band instead of randomly adding what they see on the list of a random website. Most of them are copied and pasted, anyway :/ --Hydroracee (talk) 19:34, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Spelling

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Why is the name of the article Neue Deutsche härte, with Neue Deutsche Härte as a redirect? The latter is the correct spelling, since nouns are always capitalized in German. As long as the name is in German, shouldn't it be capitalized according to German rules? DES (talk) 12:33, 12 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The whole term is probably a proper noun in itself anyway (like New Wave), so rendering it in a first-letter-uppercase format seems fairly reasonable. - Cyrus XIII (talk) 22:35, 15 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I believe when it comes to German nouns and such, it stays lower case - see Talk:Du hast for and example. ≈ The Haunted Angel Review Me! 23:44, 15 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, but I fail to see how this example supports a lowercasing of "Härte". The consensus on Talk:Du hast seems to be to follow standard German capitalization as opposed to English title case, yet "hast" is a verb (lowercase in German) and "Härte" is a noun (uppercase in German). See also: Neue Deutsche Welle (from which the term we are discussing here was probably derived). - Cyrus XIII (talk) 00:48, 16 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

NDH & Coldwave influences

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It is true that the Neue Deutsche Härte are heavily influenced by Industrial Metal, but that doesn't mean that it's the only genre that would describe the sound of NDH. Many different genres like EBM, Dark Electro, Neofolk, Goth, Rock and all kinds of metal music have influenced the NDH. The important thing is that the NDH has a unique sound created out of all those genres, whether German or German-oriented, the bands have created the NDH genre, and the only differences between them are influences (like Goth, Medieval, Metal etc.). Coldwave (USA) is similiar to NDH, though it has it's own sound, it should not be considered the same as Industrial Metal. A Coldwave (USA) band Hanzel und Gretyl should be mentioned, as they are from New York, but their Industrial Rock/Industrial Metal sound is heavily influenced by German language and NDH-style playing. Therefore, the Neue Deutsche Härte and/or Coldwave (USA) should never be the same as the term Industrial Metal.

--Cjepo (talk) 23:08, 3 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I still think of Industrial Metal as more of a broader genre. It stems down from Rock... Industrial... Industrial Metal... then splits off into more sub-genres such as Coldwave and NDH. It's just like you can say that Oomph! is still a rock/metal group. They are but they're also a sub-genre of that. Xe7al (talk) 01:20, 6 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
But it's important that you see that the NDH is not just a musical genre, it's a group of German or German-oriented bands who have a unique sound that just happens to be almost the same as Industrial metal! Oomph have gone through EBM beginnings, Industrial Metal and finally ended in something that sounds like alternative metal. Still, Oomph are the pioneers of NDH, and are most famous for their Industrial Metal albums and songs!

--Cjepo (talk) 02:24, 6 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Merge with industrial metal

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I suggest this page be merged with industrial metal. Pages on Wikipedia tend to do better when they centralize a great deal of information, rather than breaking off into myriad specialized sub-pages. Aryder779 (talk) 19:22, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree--I like most things in the NDH genre. People keep telling me that I should like industrial metal too, but every time I listen to it (I've tried KMFDM, 16 volt, Ministry...) I never do. The main difference to me is that NDH will actually build lasting chords and chord progressions out of the non-metal instruments, rather than just playing them as random sound effects. Listen to songs like Sonne from Rammstein, Spiegelbild from Unheilig, Gott Sein 04 from Megaherz, Viel zu Tief from Oomph!, and Leider from Eisbrecher. Pay attention to the way the orchestras and other pitched instruments blend with the guitars. In my experience, you simply never get that from Industrial Metal. As a side note, I would also like to point out that none of these bands make exclusively NDH music the way I define it. Rammstein's Mann Gegen Mann strikes me as basically industrial metal, as does Wach Auf! from Oomph! and Kopfschuss from Megaherz; An Deiner Seite from Unheilig is very much a ballad, with not enough of the NDH edge; and Fanatica from Eisbrecher is too far toward dance/techno. Leptogenesis (talk) 14:49, 13 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree too-- NDH and Industrial metal are pretty similar, but they are different. Also, there are some Industrial metal bands that are not german, so its incorrect to merge those articles. --Alguzaraaa// (talk) 15:50, 5 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It may make sense to merge NDH with industrial metal because NDH is similar to industrial metal, but since NDH is definitively German, it should really stand on its own. It is a strong enough genre to not be a sub-genre. NDH also has specific elements that aren't always a part of industrial metal. 71.212.184.18 (talk) 07:18, 23 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In my opinion NDH and Industrial are quite different. Some songs from any particular NDH band may seem Industrial, but on the whole, the band is NDH. Like Rammstein's Ohne Dich is a ballad but that doesn't mean that the bad on a whole is not NDH. Leptogenesis has given some pretty good examples here, too. You'll listen a song from one of these bands and BANG! You know it's NDH. Honestly, most mainstream Industrial music otherwise sounds like a knife in my ear. It would be a shame to merge the both. --Hydroracee (talk) 19:22, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'd support a merge with industrial metal, also this is not a genre, it's a scene, and need's to be removed from band's like Rammstein and Oomph!'s infoboxes. --unsigned

as per my previous edits, i dont consider ndh to be a legitimate genre but rather a sub-genre of industrial metal for specifically german bands or bands with german sounding names and therefore arbitrary and unnoteworthy for wikipedia. that is to say: merge or delete this altogether --92.193.9.243 (talk) 22:28, 8 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Merge with European industrial metal

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New proposal -- This page should be merged with European industrial metal. The section on that page is better sourced and better written. There's not a great difference between OOMPH and Die Krupps. Aryder779 (talk) 23:00, 16 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The contents of this page are now identical with the subsection in European industrial metal. If no one has any serious objection, I will redirect this page in the next few days. Aryder779 (talk) 22:14, 22 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
There's no "European industrial metal". This is a neologism. Neue Deutsche Härte is an established genre and genre term. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.134.18.202 (talk) 13:02, 11 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I know this proposal is quite dated but... I have a serious objection. NDH is NDH and is an established genre by itself. Rammstein, Unheilig, etc. are NDH. Rammstein can be considered as Industrial too, but does that mean that most if not all of these European industrial metal bands can be considered as NDH. Would anyone in their right mind say that Godflesh is NDH? It doesn't make any sense at all to merge them, then. --Hydroracee (talk) 19:30, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Neue Deutsche Harte and Industrial Metal are NOT the same

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I'm saying truth, why? NDH is fusion of Hard Rock and TECHNO, not industrial --82.139.5.13 (talk) 12:51, 23 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

User 82.139.5.13 is absolutely right. Only deaf people believe that NDH and IM are the same thing. What has a band such as Eisbrecher to do with the music of Ministry's Psalm 69? Nothing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.134.20.174 (talk) 20:02, 11 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 18 October 2015

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The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Moved. I know that I voted and so I should not close this discussion but there was unanimous consensus for a return to the standard name. It should never have been moved in the first place. Binksternet (talk) 23:17, 24 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

New German Hardness → Neue Deutsche Härte – The page was moved to New German Hardness without any sort of discussion or explanation. Pageviews and google search results for Neue Deutsche Härte radically outnumbers New German Hardness. (Neue Deutsche Härte pageviews, New German Hardness pageviews, Neue Deutsche Härte google results, New German Hardness google results) Myxomatosis57 (talk) 11:15, 18 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
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Lead section

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The lead section doesn’t have to be that’s vague, It is considerd a fusion genre, not just a subgenre of rock music. ~SML • TP 12:34, 23 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Include the bands Richthofen and Seelenwalzer to the bands list

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Here is my suggestion for creating a new Wikipeadia entries for the bands Richthofen and Seelenwalzer. The entry explains why these bands should be considered as part of Neue Deutsche Härte genre. Richthofen was one of the first bands from this scene signed to a major label and the debut record is reissued in 2019 alongside a new successor project called "Seelenwalzer."

Richthofen (Band)

Richthofen was a German Neue Deutsche Härte industrial metal band founded in 1997 by producer and guitarist Andy Classen. The bands name references the prominent German air ace Manfred von Richthofen (1892–1918), also known as the "Red Baron". Founded in 1997 the band recorded two albums and was disbanded in 1999.

The first album published with the Sony Music subsidy GUN-Records in 1997 was named Seelenwalzer a word play on soul and walz. After protests by the Richthofen family the band was legally required to drop the name and ultimately disbanded without publishing the fully recorded second album Mondo Bizarre. While the first album was influenced by Rammstein with a more death metal approach the second album was heavily inspired by the movie Dead Man and made extensive references to country music. GUN-Records objected to this stylistic choices and together with the controversy over the band name dropped the band from the label. The second album remains unpublished.

In 2019 the original Seelenwalzer album is being reissued with the label Massacre Records Here the band-name has been changed to the title of the original album Seelenwalzer. Together with members of the original Richthofen line-up Andy Classen has founded a new band under this name and recorded an album named Totgeglaubt - german for "believed dead". Totgeglaubt is being published with Massacre Records in May 2019.

References

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http://seelenwalzer.com http://metalmaximumradio.com/2019/02/25/seelenwalzer-signs-with-massacre-records/

Requested move 16 March 2020

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The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not moved — Wug·a·po·des​ 22:21, 10 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]


Neue Deutsche Härte → Neue deutsche Härte – Per MOS:GENRECAPS, music genres are not capitalised, unless the genre name contains a proper name such as the name of a place, or in this case the demonym "Deutsche" or "German", therefore it will read as "neue Deutsche härte" (or "new German hardness"). Hiddenstranger (talk) 20:56, 16 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I must have been unclear. (What was unclear in the words "otherwise" and "would be"??) The whole phrase is a name, which should not be changed. de:Neue Deutsche Härte. Period. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:11, 17 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
It's a name of a music genre, not a name of a person or place; in English, "new German hardness" would not be capitalised per MOS:GENRECAPS; @In ictu oculi: How about the rename to "Neue deutsche Härte" as you suggested? ~ Hiddenstranger (talk) 09:34, 17 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't suggest that. The name of a music genre is still a name, no? Do we have to be more German than the Germans? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:43, 17 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
My question was to the user @In ictu oculi: ~ Hiddenstranger (talk) 11:02, 17 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Themes of NDH

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What's all this in the themes about featuring shock topics like "necrophilia and sexual abuse of children"? I've listened to quite a bit of NDH and although it can get sexual at times, I've never heard anything like this. I feel like the source in question (a German book that I can't track down online) may be referring more to death metal or other genres. If someone could provide an exact quote from the book or some other evidence to clear this up that would be great because this just seems a little bizarre to me. WingsOfBone (talk) 02:52, 18 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Dissolution of Soviet Union

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I'm wondering if there is a good case to be made about the influence of the 'Dissolution of the Soviet Union' on NDH? I couldn't find any references to capitalism/communism/east-west/'berlin wall' in the wiki or the talk page. My reasons for suspecting an influence are: the timing (early-mid 90s reformed Germany), a lot of 'western' imported themes and ideas in NDH, the emergence of an art scene is common in times of transformation. I'm wondering if the lack of reference is a deliberate omission because the association is simply not there/not a strong one, or because it hasn't been explored fully.

If the latter, I would be prepared to research further and contribute to the Wiki, as it's an interesting area of exploration for me. I'm keen to hear what you think, so please leave your thoughts. Freshfdgeehtsj (talk) 10:44, 28 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Neue_Deutsche_Härte&oldid=1210795674"