Talk:Nationality law of North Macedonia

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On 21 October 2024, it was proposed that this article be moved to North Macedonian nationality law. The result of the discussion was no consensus.

Crockett government

why don't to believe in the people of Macedonia they said NO to name change in constitution voting September 30. what kind of government work against the people ? i know a lot of peoples from Macedonia whos still don't accept north and government still push that agenda if 🇺🇸 need change city name Paris Texas because of Paris France ? bunch of morons cannot be in politicians whos look only for him self Viva MACEDONIA f.. north doesn't exist 2600:1700:3300:CB50:D90E:9633:30:C2CA (talk) 12:35, 16 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 1 February 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Withdrawn, turns out there is a Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Macedonia)#Adjectival form of North Macedonia. Onlk (talk) 07:44, 2 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Nationality law of North Macedonia → North Macedonian nationality law – Literally every other such page seems to use the title format "DEMONYM nationality law", and the page was moved without discussion from the title I'm proposing. The redirect prevents this from being simply undone. See also North Macedonian passport. Onlk (talk) 23:30, 1 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: We typically use "Macedonian" as the demonym for this country. Is there any risk of confusion with other Macedonias here? O.N.R. ^(talk) 07:07, 2 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move 21 October 2024

This discussion was listed at Wikipedia:Move review on 30 October 2024. The result of the move review was endorse.

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. This discussion largely boiled down to one policy or guideline for each "side". For the support !votes, that was the argument in favor of being WP:CONSISTENT with other pages in Category:Nationality law. For the oppose !votes, that was by and large WP:MOSMAC, more specifically the line Article names, categories, and templates should avoid adjectival use altogether.. While the supporters did offer up North Macedonian passport as an exception to that rule, I find no consensus to override the community consensus formed in the 2019 RfC to avoid using adjectival forms related to North Macedonia.

That being said, the 2019 RfC did take place less than a year after North Macedonia's name change, and reliable sources could have changed to reflect a WP:COMMONNAME regarding a demonym for North Macedonia. Given this discussion and another similar, though opposite direction, RM, there could be a need to revisit that RfC in the near future. (closed by non-admin page mover) estar8806 (talk) ★ 03:19, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Nationality law of North Macedonia → North Macedonian nationality law – All in line with WP:CONSISTENT, the page should be moved as it is the only page in Category:Nationality_law that does not follow the "Country-Adjective nationality law" format. After the name change in 2019, the Wikipedia community did the 2019-RFC and based on a long list of reliable sources approved on a wider scale, it decided to use the adjective "North Macedonian" for State-associated and other public entities. I quote the decision here:

State-associated and other public entities: What term should be used when referring to state-associated entities, including governmental organisations and official ranks, as well as other public entities from North Macedonia as specified in Prespa agreement?
Option B: Both "North Macedonian" and "... of North Macedonia", where a similar form would be used for other countries. e.g. the North Macedonian Government or the Government of North Macedonia.

The closing panel agrees that there is consensus for Option B. Furthermore, noting the fact that public entities are being retitled per Prespa agreement, newer sources find "North Macedonia"-related terminology more common, and we have the existing policies of WP:NAMECHANGES and WP:COMMONNAME.

Therefore, according to the Consensus established in the RFC (and until there is a new RFC on a wider scale), the correct title for this page is "North Macedonian nationality law" because this is the format used for other countries as explicitly written in the conclusion of the RFC.

The comment of the closing panel at the top of the 2019-RFC tells us:

There is new consensus in this RfC that we have to accept as a community

The page was moved to the current name on 23 February 2019 (immediately after the country was renamed to North Macedonia) but before the final decision of the 2019-RFC that was made on 11 April 2019. Therefore, the decision of the Wikipedia Community of the 2019-RFC was mistakenly not applied to this page. Open Free Eye (talk) 19:21, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support per WP:CONSISTENT. I do not see why we should make an exception here. StephenMacky1 (talk) 20:15, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It wouldn't be an exception and it would follow the WP:MOSMAC policy. --Local hero ^talk 03:19, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
MOS:MAC is a guideline though, while WP:NC is a policy. The rationale was also used to rename the article North Macedonian passport. StephenMacky1 (talk) 06:27, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
And not using a demonym in the article title would not be wholly inconsistent (again see United States nationality law). Also unsure why you would support an initiative launched by a user you have accused of sockpuppetry... --Local hero ^talk 13:42, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Well, innocent until proven guilty. I think we can worry about that later. StephenMacky1 (talk) 13:52, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Understood, first statement stands. --Local hero ^talk 14:05, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. There are multiple others that do not use a demonym in the article title, such as United States nationality law. You managed to nitpick some parts of WP:MOSMAC, but neglected to provide: "Article names, categories, and templates should avoid adjectival use altogether." --Local hero ^talk 03:19, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You didn't support "Denar of North Macedonia" when I made this argument and comparison with "Nationality law of North Macedonia" discussed in Talk:Macedonian denar and apparently no other editor supported in the follow-up move review. North Macedonia is the only exception that has a proper adjective but not used, your example is not of the form "... of Country Name". The sentence you use as argument was ignored by yourself a few days ago, and this sentence is strange because it goes against the Consensus of the 2019-RFC that explicitly says we have to use "North Macedonian" where a similar form would be used for other countries. After all these, I am not sure who nitpicks what. Cheers! Open Free Eye (talk) 07:09, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. Thanks for reminding us that you are a single-purpose account (just here to add an -n suffix to "North Macedonia" wherever possible), in addition to likely being a sock-puppet. --Local hero ^talk 13:40, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Dear, I will receive your comment with good faith and as a good chance to study even more material about WP:SPA and WP:SOCK, so a big thanks for that. But I cannot find a positive way of seeing your accusation for being a single-purpose account or a sock-puppet just because you disagree with my well-supported proposals for reaching consensus. You should encourage new editors to get familiar with policies and teach them how to do it. I don't think I have made any mistake for deserving you accusation. At a first glance, I understand SPA as someone who is not neutral, makes edits in a narrow topic and follows an agenda. Your edits are limited to North Macedonia (narrow topic), you are consistently inconsistent (not neutral) with your arguments and you overlook wikipedia policies (following an agenda). Do you call yourself a SPA? SPA is also someone who is not here to build an encyclopedia. Do you think your own way to interpret community consensus although you know very well the relevant wikipedia policies shows that your top priority is to build an encyclopedia? The lack of valid arguments make you looking for excuses. Any editor interested in my edits can check them and figure out if my edits are in a narrow topic (3 edits related to Albania, 2 edits related to Greece, 2 edits related to North Macedonia), if they are neutral (my first edit in Wikipedia was reverted by an administrator and I was asked to start a move request and since then I started another two because my edits are about title changes), and if I follow an agenda (always trying to reach consensus and use wikipedia policies; I have asked help multiple times and I appreciate the help I received although most editors never responded to my questions). I don't think I should apologize for being interested in topics of 3 countries in my first number of edits. Perhaps if you start accepting wikipedia policies and stop contributing excuses, I will find more time to spend on other articles, than repeating the same policies to you. You don't help new editors making progress, you know...! Please use your arguments within the scientific spectrum, consider community consensus 2019-RFC, and any personal matter is welcomed for discussion on my talk page. Cheers! Open Free Eye (talk) 18:35, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose per Local hero, WP:MOSMAC. Dank Jae 17:08, 24 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Double standards by Local hero, who first strongly opposed "Denar of North Macedonia" but here strongly defends "Nationality Law of North Macedonia", and this is very well expected by someone whose edits are made to remove "North" and blames me for doing it although I have literally 0 edits doing it. Anyways, thanks for your comment. Cheers! Open Free Eye (talk) 20:38, 24 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Y Support obviously, I want to add a comment. The main question has a clear answer from a scientific point of view, the argument per Local hero about exception for "articles .... etc" was rejected in the recent move request for moving "Macedonian denar" to "Denar of North Macedonia" and also in the move review. StephenMacky1 who supports this request has opposed to "Denar of North Macedonia", showing a scientific and consistent approach to the discussion. Local hero who also participated on both move requests shows double standards that do not help us building encyclopedias. I would be very surprised if double standards consensus is found after having clear and very fresh consensus for WP:MOSMAC interpretation and policies. Cheers! Open Free Eye (talk) 20:46, 24 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Per WP:RMCOMMENT,

Nomination already implies that the nominator supports the name change, and nominators should refrain from repeating this recommendation on a separate bulleted line.

Thanks. --Local hero ^talk 03:00, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support - the fact that there's one, that is, one (1) exception to this rule is not a good reason for this article to also deviate. The proposed title is more concise and there's no reason to oppose it. MOSMAC is a mere suggestion; WP:AT controls. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Red Slash (talk • contribs) 21:40, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Well that's not totally accurate. There are 12 "exceptions" (Bosnia and Herzegovina, Dominican Republic, Luxembourg, Myanmar, New Zealand, North Macedonia, Northern Cyprus, Northern Mariana Islands, San Marino, Solomon Islands, Somaliland, and United States). Also, "North Macedonia nationality law" would be just as concise (or, one letter more concise I guess). Given there do exist several exceptions, I can't imagine why we wouldn't agree one should exist for North Macedonia, the mother of all demonym arguments. --Local hero ^talk 22:46, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.