Talk:Missa solemnis (Beethoven)

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This is not quite... encyclopedic

The plethora of opinions presented throughout this entry, coupled with esoteric insider references, give this article the feel of one single critic's style and assumptions. It is not a fitting tone or style for an encyclopedia entry (I didn't bother myself to throw up the dozens of 'citation needed' markers that this article currently needs, among other things...) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.25.157.129 (talk) 20:28, 22 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, this is very subjective. Let us try and fix it a bit. Cugel 13:20, 28 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I fully agree with fugel. Let's do something about it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.190.253.150 (talk) 04:05, 3 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The contention "[t]ogether with Bach's Mass in B Minor, it is the most significant mass setting of the common practice period" (my italics) is emblematic of what the original poster of this objection is objecting to. We need a whole new article.

208.87.248.162 (talk) 15:01, 6 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

An entirely new article is probably a bit much. When an opinion is attributed to a specific person (e.g., Adorno, Tovey), it's enough to say what book that came out of; it shouldn't be too difficult to find the books. But it might be more fun to rewrite the whole thing from scratch, and I won't stop you. James470 (talk) 23:28, 6 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The Adorno quote comes from this book --66.130.125.90 (talk) 01:47, 26 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I took the liberty of changing this sentence to Together with Bach's Mass in B minor, it is often considered to be the most significant Mass setting of the common practice period. It may still be a little too strong (Even when only considering his immediate predecessors, it leaves Mozart's Mass in C minor and Haydn's late Masses), but it should in any case be preferable to the earlier version. Sirion123 (talk) 17:59, 17 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"My greatest work"?

I deleted the claim that Beethoven called the Missa his greatest work - and the necessity for a citation - on the ground that the quote is taken out of context. The full letter can be found at Gutenberg.org (http://www.gutenberg.org/files/13272/13272-h/13272-h.htm) where the context looks more as if he means the greatest of what he's working on at the time rather than the greatest of anything he' done.

Vienna, April 6, 1822.

MY DEAREST AND BEST RIES,--

Having been again in bad health during the last ten months, I have hitherto been unable to answer your letter. I duly received the 26l. sterling, and thank you sincerely; I have not, however, yet got the sonata you dedicated to me. My greatest work is a Grand Mass that I have recently written. As time presses, I can only say what is most urgent. What would the Philharmonic give me for a symphony?

Deschreiber (talk) 18:35, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

His visitor Edward Shulz published an account in 1824 of a day spent wtih Beethoven in late September 1823. After providing many details of Beethoven's preferences in music, he wrote: "His second Mass he looks upon as his best work, I understood." https://books.google.com/books?id=6a5kDQAAQBAJ&pg=PA153&lpg=PA153&dq=beethoven+impressions+by+his+contemporaries+%22second+mass%22&source=bl&ots=p1_HOpN-dv&sig=ACfU3U1Dno0zq8PrVcmAbmZjPSCXHPeuTw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjjqszNiPLhAhUrjVQKHZduBt0Q6AEwAXoECF8QAQ#v=onepage&q=beethoven%20impressions%20by%20his%20contemporaries%20%22second%20mass%22&f=false

I would probably want to include this in the article unless somebody has a serious objection. Something like: "At least one contemporary visitor reported that Beethoven considered the Missa his greatest work." David Couch (talk) 05:45, 28 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

What else do we know about Edward Schulz? What weight should we place on his opinion? -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 06:40, 28 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Dubious

Supposedly Beethoven's Missa Solemnis is rarely performed. I've heard it live in concert twice without having to leave the country, and I own three different recordings. James470 (talk) 00:22, 14 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Overreaching

"...his simultaneous interest in the theme and variations form is more than absent." That's goin' some! I have removed "more than." Opus131 (talk) 06:30, 15 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Toscanini Performances

This section seems as if it doesn't belong. I don't know that many consider the Toscanini performances to be the best; Klemperer and Gardiner seem the favorites these days. I think this section should simply be removed but will wait for comments. Opus131 (talk) 06:42, 15 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Seconded. 85.69.199.214 (talk) 19:33, 24 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'll remove it now then. We should probably have a section in discography at some point... Opus131 (talk) 06:16, 12 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Dedication

At least according to Thayer's biography, it isn't just dedicated to Archduke Rudolph but was at first intended to be performed at his (1820) installation as Archbishop. (Wasn't done!) (Again if Thayer &c have not been superceded by more recent research, the (Haydnesque...) way in which Beethoven offered the work to three or four (more?) publishers (again, before it was quite done) and requested subscriptions to manuscript copies of the score from nobles (mostly leaders, but Galitzin, who'd already asked Beethoven for some quartets by this point and was now asked to serve as a gobetween with the Czar(ina?), bought one himself and produced the premiere as noted... Schissel | Sound the Note! 03:12, 16 June 2016 (UTC) Schissel | Sound the Note! 03:12, 16 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The translation given here ("return") is bad. The dedication means: "(It comes) from a heart - may it arrive again in a heart / in hearts". --Rabanus Flavus (talk) 19:17, 31 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Influences

"Gregorian melodies, of course, continued to be used in the Mass throughout the eighteenth century; but by Beethoven's time they were relatively rare, especially in orchestral Masses. The one composer who still used them extensively is Michael Haydn, in his a cappella Masses for Advent and Lent. It is significant that in some of these he limits the borrowed melody to the Incarnatus and expressly labels it "Corale." In the Missa dolorum B. M. V. (1762) it is set in the style of a harmonized chorale, in the Missa tempore Qudragesima of 1794 note against note, with the Gregorian melody (Credo IV of the Liber Usualis) appearing in the soprano. I have little doubt that Beethoven knew such works of Michael Haydn, at that time the most popular composer of sacred music in Austria." -Michael Spitzer https://books.google.ca/books?id=rTQrDwAAQBAJ&pg=PA123

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ScKK17UPSYg&t=5m49s ( Et incarnatus est from Michael Haydn's Missa Sancti Gabrielis, MH 17 ) Does Beethoven's mass exhibit Michael Haydn influence? Wikiwickedness