Talk:John Kennedy Toole

Adding a new section?

Do contributors to this page think it's appropriate to add some sort of section regarding Toole's influence on popular culture and music? Perhaps such a section would be more appropriate on the A Confederacy of Dunces page?

I recently added a link in the Bibliography "Works about Toole" section but it was removed because it was deemed out of place in the list of otherwise scholarly works (sorry if I made a faux pas – newbie here).

I wouldn't press the point except for the fact that the work in question is a song by the late Jimmie Spheeris, who knew Toole in New Orleans and included a song entitled You Must Be Laughing Somewhere on his final album. Jimmie's final album was completed on the night he died and not released publicly for 16 years. There are some striking parallels between the publication of Toole's novel and the release of Jimmie's final album — I can't help but think readers would find this interesting. Again, I don't want to press this and would appreciate comments.

Jimmie was a friend and I've been making updates to his Wiki page lately. He and I had several conversations regarding Toole over the years. Documentation would be difficult to prove, but the song lyrics speak for themselves.

Thanks, Art101 18:33, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, the biggest problem which got your addition to the article removed is that the "works about Toole" section you added it to was part of the "Bibliography" section, where it didn't fit in with other biographic reference books.

While in some cases references in other media have been added to articles (sometimes under a "trivia" section-- a practice some editors disparage), in this case I'd lean towards not adding it to the article. Your information is interesting, but I see the reference is already explained on the Jimmie Spheeris article while I don't see it adds much to the understanding of John Kennedy Toole. Furthermore, the song lyrics you link don't mention Toole by name, and a quick google search for the song title + John Kennedy Toole or Jimmie Spheeris + JKT both only got me one link, to the same NPR story-- this suggests that the reference to Toole in the song is not famous. Thank you for asking. Cheers, -- Infrogmation 20:15, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your clarification

Thanks, Infrogmation. I'll refrain from the temptation to add anything to the Toole page and concentrate on expanding Jimmie's Wikipedia page.

Art101 23:27, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Flannery O'Connor?

I was wondering how Toole could have met up with Flannery O'Connor the night he died (in 1969) when she had died in 1964? Clearly there's something wrong.

Sontag12 —Preceding comment was added at 19:13, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for catching that! I'll go back and see where that came from. How strange. Brandoid (talk) 00:16, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

I did a little more research. I believe that I misinterpreted a text. I have reviewed several others, and it appears that John Kennedy Toole visited the home of then deceased writer O'Connor. I will revise my addition. Brandoid (talk) 00:25, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Succumbing to Deafness?

Toole's father worked as a car salesman and mechanic before succumbing to deafness and failing health...

He succumbed to deafness? Wow, must have been a particularly malignant form of deafness.... And, if he "succumbed" to it, then "failing health" might be a bit of an understatement.... rowley (talk) 20:35, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Military Service

According to Selective Service, the Vietnam War draft lottery began in 1970. The Korean War draft ended on 1950. This article states that Toole was drafted in 1961, and served 2 years.

Can you please clarify?

http://www.sss.gov/lotter1.htm

173.70.172.98 (talk) 06:38, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

There was a peace time draft at the time; see Conscription_in_the_United_States#Cold_War_and_Korean_War. The sss link you reference is about a reinstatement of the draft lottery during Vietnam, which was to get more troops troops in addition to the already existing draft. Infrogmation (talk) 23:41, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Section removed

==Scholarly disputes over certain aspects of Toole's life==

"Toole's biographers, Rene Pol Nevils and Deborah George Hardy, have suggested that a factor in Toole's depression was confusion about his sexuality and identity. In their biography, Ignatius Rising: The Life of John Kennedy Toole, they tracked down and interviewed many of Ken Toole's acquaintances. While one friend suggested that his domineering mother left no emotional room for any other woman in Toole's life (although he did date some women exclusively in his lifetime), others have disputed the suggestion that he was a homosexual, including David Kubach, a longtime friend who also served with Toole in the army. According to Kubach, the authors of Ignatius Rising were not personally acquainted with Toole, and "not knowing him makes a big difference."

References

Joel L. Fletcher, a close personal friend of Toole's, wrote a memoir of his life and times as a friend of the Toole family titled Ken & Thelma, and he found Ignatius Rising to be "an appalling piece of work". Nicholas Polites (another of Toole's close friends) wrote to LSU Press claiming that "so much of the information I provided has been embellished, distorted, and outright fabricated.""

The reason I removed the section is while skimming through both books I noticed there are severe discrepancies I will have to sort out before I feel this can even be discussed here. It seems like all the principal witnesses are complaining in Ken & Thelma that Ignatius Rising is nearly a work of fiction. I'll read both books over the weekend and incorporate what I can. Oh, boy I was hoping this would be much easier. Quadzilla99 (talk) 10:12, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

References

I'm eliminating the discussion of Toole's supposed homosexuality. Toole may or may not have been gay but there is nothing but supposition in Ignatius Rising and the one witness who claims to have first hand knowledge is a self-admitted drug addict who says he barely remembers the 1960s but claims to have had a sexual relationship with Toole twelve years previous after seeing him on the jacket of the book. He has no corroborating evidence and even the authors of Ignatius Rising admit he couldn't pick Toole's house out when they drove him to the block Toole lived on and pointing at the house for him.

My reasons for this can mostly be found in the postscript of Ken & Thelma, where Fletcher and several others dispute parts of the book. I can go into more detail if necessary. I feel from reading both books most of the questionable parts in Ignatius Rising are in attempts to make a case Toole is gay because he never appeared to have had sex with a woman and perhaps in the characterization of Toole's mother, especially after his death. The second problem doesn't really relate to this article thankfully, since her behavior after he died isn't hugely important to his biography but it might to Confederacy's article. Quadzilla99 (talk) 08:39, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

There's also some discussion of Toole's sexuality in the chapter titled Doonie in Ken & Thelma which indicates with somewhat circumstantial evidence he may have been bisexual, it's interesting but mostly second hand stories that are somewhat vague. One is reports of him making lewd comments about women the other is a possible attraction to a male friend. Quadzilla99 (talk) 11:21, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

It's too bad there isn't something more definitive out there to document whether this writer was gay or not. I was always under the impression he was. The loneliness and alcoholism he experienced is what many closeted men from his era succumbed to, and putting that alongside the fact that he had no physical interest in women...well, wasn't he either gay, or had a neutered sexuality?? (I'll leave the Marilyn Monroe mania and his devastation by her death out of this.) (Though, um...)

I guess someone could be lonely and alcoholic, and either intimidated by or indifferent to women, and be completely non-sexual...but, are there very many people out there who have a neutered sexuality?? I certainly don't know any! EDIT: It looks like there's an essay/article here (http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-165575195.html) on Toole's sexuality, and how it's reflected in his work.If someone's interested in the subject, perhaps they can gather some insights there for the entry. I don't know if the the Southern Literary Journal is a respected source to cite or not, and I don't have a subscription to that archival system, so I haven't read the whole piece.Codenamemary (talk) 03:19, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

Article rating

Unfortunately after much work on this, myself (I was Quadzilla99) and another user have decided that due to the issues raised above, the main source used just isn't reliable enough to stand up to FAC or GA level scrutiny. I truly believe everything in here is accurate as I feel I read the book with a critical eye and left out anything which sounded like conjecture, but there's just really no way to know for sure. I'm leaving this note here in case I retire again, and someone decides to nominate the article they know to tread lightly. Hopefully a good bio comes out on him, but I don't see anything in the pipeline. AaronY (talk) 08:30, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

Abbreviated title

Is there a widespread consensus that the appropriate title abbreviation of A Confederacy of Dunces is "Dunces"? If this was customary for Toole himself, or his editors, I must agree with it. However, in my own personal experience, the word "Confederacy" is the appropriate abbreviation. If there is a rule for this practice, it is apparently that the first noun in a title would be selected. This would be Confederacy, not Dunces, and the latter occurs within a prepositional phrase.Cdg1072 (talk) 04:02, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Based on a single source?

It appears that most of the article is based on a single source (Nevils and Hardy), which does not seem ideal. I think the article should cut down its reliance on the single source for most of its content. Shreevatsa (talk) 22:19, 28 September 2016 (UTC)

Cory MacLauchlin's Butterfly in the Typewriter (2012) is mentioned in the 'External links' section but isn't used as a reference in the main text - does it contain anything that could be useful? JezGrove (talk) 23:30, 14 March 2017 (UTC)

I was the main writer of the article and I don't think Butterfly in the Typewriter was available then but I have it here now and it should be used in the article. Unfortunately, I am retired now but at the time there was only one book on the topic and to write a featured article which was my goal they wanted heavy use of book sources. Failing that anyone using web sources would be helpful if they wanted to diversify the number of sources. AaronY (talk) 07:59, 9 June 2021 (UTC)

Brain tumor ever considered?

Has the possibility that Mr. Toole suffered from an undiagnosed brain tumor ever been mentioned? His headaches and increasingly erratic behavior and paranoia might seem to render such possible. The article states he refused to see a neurologist as a physician recommended. Perhaps he had feared this possibility himself regardless if it were true and never let on. Was an autopsy performed? Perhaps not as the cause of death was obvious so what would have been the point of exploring health concerns at that point. In any event, a real tragedy and loss.HistoryBuff14 (talk) 23:33, 8 January 2019 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Flannery-O'Connor 1947.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 02:37, 14 March 2020 (UTC)

Use of the word flaunt

The phrase "... there was an openly gay contingent which flaunted their homosexuality." is pretty homophobic. Would it be better to say that they didn't hide their homosexuality? Thbpr (talk) 13:49, 20 January 2023 (UTC)