Talk:Forage cap

Etymology

I had always assumed that a forage cap was so called because its shape lent itself to use in the field for collecting fruit, eggs etc. Cross Reference (talk) 13:48, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

Always round in shape

This is a sweeping statement. Forage or undress caps took many forms until standardised in 1813. In the Napoleonic wars, some regiments wore fore and aft forage caps, similar to the convict cap of the 1850s (eg 68th Durham Light Infantry, see: http://www.68dli.co.uk/contdata222.htm) Others wore long triangular caps like nightcaps: (eg 33rd Yorksire West Riding Regiment, see: http://www.33rdfoot.co.uk/gallerymain.htm)

Origin needs better explanation

Saying it was "worn by British cavalrymen when collecting forage for their horses" isn't really a satisfactory explanation. Did they actually use the hats for collecting the forage in, which seems likely? This needs to be explained better but I can't find any good resources for it online.Gymnophoria (talk) 13:22, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

151.170.240.10 (talk) 15:36, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

Yes the wording is a bit ambiguous but it is taken from the section on forage caps in W.Y. Carman's "A Dictionary of Military Uniform". Carman was Deputy Director of the National Army Museum in London and a recognized expert on historical topics of this sort. The caps would have been too small to carry more than a handful of forage but what Carman means is they were originally worn by cavalry troopers when doing any work duties in barracks or around the stables for which full-dress helmets or hats would have been unsuitable. I will reword this passage to try and make it clearer.Buistr (talk) 22:25, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

kepi/forage cap

"The kepi widely worn during the American Civil War is sometimes mistakenly referred to as a forage cap."

Not so. On the contrary: the cap worn by many soldiers during the American Civil War, especially on the Union Army, was based on the 'forage cap' introduced in 1858, intended for wear with the 'sack coat' as part of working dress while carrying out fatigue duties. Together these became the basic working and campaign dress of most Union volunteers during the ensuing conflict.

During the Civil War this form of cap was produced in numerous styles by officers' clothiers and contractors. The design did in general terms resemble, and was arguably inspired by, the French 'bonnet de police a visière' of the 1850s - which had been nicknamed 'kepi' by French soldiers (possibly originating among Foreign Legionaires, from the German 'kappi' ).

In particular, a certain low-crowned form of cap, neater in appearance, which was worn by officers and later adopted by the US Army in the 1870s, had a markedly French 'look' and so might justifiably be be described as 'kepi-style.' However, the peaked cap familiar from the Civil War was not a 'kepi' as such, nor was it termed so.

This statement is not only inaccurate and consequently irrelevant to the introduction, but is contradicted by reference to the M1858 forage cap in the body of the article. It would be better excised JF42 (talk) 15:31, 26 February 2018 (UTC)

Bonnet de Police/Garrison cap

"in 1915, the Bonnet de Police was reintroduced as the Garrison cap."

I regret to say this statement is nonsensical. Is it being suggested that the French referred to their new headgear in English?

The Bonnet de Police with hanging flamme had been reducing in size during the first half of the C19th century until in the 1850s it had assumed a fore-and-aft shape with turned-up flaps and only a triangle of piping representing a vestigial flammeon one side of the crown This worn by Garde Imperial units and other units. At the turn of the century, some units also adopted a for-and-aft cap in the style of the contemporary British 'Field Service Cap. In 1915 a plainer bonnet de police was introduced for general wear in the trenches in the same 'horizon blue' as the new field uniforms. Unsurprisingly, this was not known as a 'Garrison Cap,' but was nicknamed 'le calot' (a general term for a small hat without brim or peak/visor).

This statement ought to be revised. JF42 (talk) 15:47, 26 February 2018 (UTC)

This article needs substantial revision

I could continue commenting on the errors I am encountering in this article but they are so numerous as to render that excercise pointless. Whoever draughted this originally shows little knowledge of the subject, either in basic facts or terminology, let alone a factual time line, and evidently doesn't have sufficient understanding to distinguish, for instance, between officers and other ranks, or between branch of service.

For now, as an indication of the problem, I shall list further statements that are either incorrect or so vague as to be meaningless, :

During the French Revolutionary Wars, French soldiers made their own forage caps from the sleeve of an old coat. Known as the Bonnet de Police, these caps resembled a nightcap

From the 1840s until World War II, French troops wore the blue and red kepi

The German army was the first to use the peaked cap,

After World War I, the German Wehrmacht used a variant of the garrison cap called the Feldmütze, before adopting the Austrian-style ski cap of the Gebirgsjäger.

in lieu of the cumbersome Shako

Always round in shape

many years later the idea of a peak was transferred from the shako to give the forage cap a smarter appearance

These crude but effective forage caps

The Kilmarnock Bonnet style of forage cap was replaced in Scottish units by the glengarry in 1848,

I could go on but I am losing the will to live.

I am genuinely bewildered. Why would anyone bother to write an article on a subject about which they appear to know or understand so little?

JF42 (talk) 16:06, 26 February 2018 (UTC)