Talk:DOMELRE

A fact from DOMELRE appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 2 September 2021 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that DOMELRE (pictured) was the first domestic electrical refrigerator in America?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2021/September. The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/DOMELRE.

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Theleekycauldron (talk) 00:30, 27 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

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Comment or view
Article history

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DOMELRE refrigerator c. 1914

... that DOMELRE (pictured), an American invention from 1913, was the first domestic electrical refrigerator? Source: https://www.ashrae.org/about/mission-and-vision/ashrae-industry-history/domelre-first-electric-refrigerator and others linked

ALT1: ... that DOMELRE (pictured), the first domestic electrical refrigerator from 1913, was also the first to offer an ice cube tray? Source: https://www.ashrae.org/about/mission-and-vision/ashrae-industry-history/domelre-first-electric-refrigerator and one more source in the article --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:58, 2 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Ink wash painting
Comment: Two other pd images available if the chosen one doesn't render well as a DYK thumb.

Created by Piotrus (talk). Self-nominated at 03:47, 2 August 2021 (UTC).[reply]

General: Article is new enough and long enough
New enough: Long enough:

Policy compliance:

Adequate sourcing: - See "Hook cited"
Neutral:
Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:

Hook eligibility:

Cited: - I think the source doesn't say that strictly. It does say that The DOMELRE was the first successful, mass marketed package automatic electric refrigeration unit and says what DOMELRE stands for, but it doesn't say that this model was "the first domestic electric refrigerator" or something to that tune. That said, this claim seems to appear for instance here, so please include the source in the text.
Interesting:

Image: Image is freely licensed, used in the article, and clear at 100px.
Freely licensed: Used in article: Clear at 100px:

QPQ: Done.

Overall: The article is new and long enough to proceed to the DYK main page list. The sourcing, apart from the claim that it is the first domestic refrigerator ever produced (which is easily fixable, as mentioned above), is adequate. No plagiarism or neutrality issues detected. Hook is very interesting, it's just the source that doesn't quite say the thing presented in the hook, but again I was able to confirm it in other sources. Picture is good to go; QPQ check positive. Overall, the only problem is the "first domestic fridge ever" claim, but there are sources saying that, so when this small issue is solved (and that should literally take less than a minute), the article will pass the review. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 15:35, 7 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Szmenderowiecki, Apologies if I misunderstood your argument, but please look at [1] again if you please - it says it was the "first electric refrigerator" clearly (in the title/heading). Domestic is an uncontroversial qualification supported by many other sources (ex. [2] and [3], both already cited). Regarding [4], I am not sure what it says that other cited sources don't, and I'd also caution against using it since it comes from a commercial company, so it is not academic and possibly promotional (not that I expect they are wrong about DOMELRE, but in general it is not best practice to use such pages as a source unless we really don't have better sources - but here, we do). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:21, 8 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

My point was that that particular source you pointed to did not say "domestic", and I just wanted to make sure that either you have other sources already quoted to support that, or that you could find some other ones not yet mentioned in the article (the best my cursory Google search yielded was that company's webpage). Since you do have these, I now have no problems to say the nomination

Passed for me.

PS. IMHO it would have been better to cite the Food Engineering Reviews paper in the first place (or actually any other source which says "household refrigerator"), because it says that unambiguosly and is an even better source than a statement on a professional society's webpage; and to be sincere, I was only looking as ASHRAE webpage to confirm that claim and not the article's sources. Anyway, good job. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 03:17, 8 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Szmenderowiecki, if you wish to pass this nomination, you have to use the proper tick icon (the recognized DYK icons and their codes are above the edit window) or the bot does not recognize that the review has been completed successfully. The icon should be placed at the beginning of your comment so it can easily be found. Thank you. BlueMoonset (talk) 03:20, 17 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

My bad, I've fixed it. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 03:42, 17 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

To T:DYK/P5

As the source makes clear…

…the DOMELRE was the first successful, mass marketed package automatic electric refrigeration unit. note all the differences between this and the article’s claims. Qwirkle (talk) 14:12, 2 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

A “first” which improved on the ones before it?

DOMELRE (an acronym of Domestic Electric Refrigerator) was the first domestic electrical refrigerator is almost directly contradicted by DOMELRE contained a number of innovations not found in prior domestic refrigerators. Qwirkle (talk) 15:34, 2 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. It's a bit weird. I propose authors to clarify it. AXONOV (talk) ⚑ 15:54, 2 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

A big part of this is the equivocation found in the article and some of the sources. Contemporaneously, a refrigerator was an icebox. Qwirkle (talk) 16:03, 2 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Qwirkle and Alexander Davronov: I don't really see a contradiction in here. Prior could have run on gas (I mean, natural), for example. While I was reviewing the article for DYK, a cursory look did not yield such contradictions. However, as a deeper look in the sources showed, "prior domestic refrigerators" is something that Piotrus inserted while there were no comparisons in the sources cited between DOMELRE and possibly other refrigeration units (which fact I happened to overlook), so simply removing these three words solves the problem without impacting the factual accuracy of the article. I have confirmed in other independent sources that DOMELRE is indeed THE pioneer. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 17:13, 2 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Szmenderowiecki I am fine with removing the phrase "not found in prior domestic refrigerators", although common sense-wise, this is what the concept of 'innovation' implies. [5] states for example "The DOMELRE featured a number of innovations". Logically, those where innovations compared to prior similar products, which can be common sense-wise described as "domestic refrigerators" (and yes, they existed, but where non-electric, or non-domestic, User:Qwirkle notes the icebox and indeed iceboxes where the main type of product - understood as refrigerator - back then). PS. Regarding the hook, the following clarification should be sufficient: " that DOMELRE (pictured), an American invention from 1913, was the first commercially succesfull domestic electrical refrigerator?", with the source for commercially successful being the book found by Andrew (linked below). _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 04:15, 3 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Szmenderowiecki Ping re the revised hook? _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:26, 6 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I'm fine with the new version, though it appears it will no longer appear on DYK, or at least I don't know if hooks return to DYK after being retracted for corrections. That said, I'm OK with it. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 02:31, 6 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Szmenderowiecki I'll ask at Wikipedia_talk:Did_you_know#Hook_pulled:_DOMELRE. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 06:53, 6 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Refrigeration Nation indicates that there were several domestic models in the period 1910–15 but that they were too bulky, being based on industrial models. The DOMELRE was the first to "survive its infancy" but still sold only 525 units. Andrew🐉(talk) 17:41, 2 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Here's a picture of the earlier Montclair, which makes it clear that it was electrical too. Andrew🐉(talk) 17:54, 2 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Andrew Davidson Good finds. Page 137 is helpful, noting that "the first household refrigerator" depends on the definition of the concept. Perhaps " the first commercially successful domestic electrical refrigerator" term might be better, since as that chapter makes clear, they have been prior attempts, but they were seen as unsuccessful. DOMELRE, on the other hand, was a commercially successful milestone. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 04:46, 3 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The source makes it fairly clear that the product was not commercially successful; it just wasn't an immediate failure. The first model only sold 525 units and the second model, Isko, sold only 1,500 so that the company went bankrupt. The first commercial success seems to have been GE's Monitor Top, which sold over a million. Andrew🐉(talk) 10:50, 3 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Andrew Davidson There is success and there is success. It was more successful than the devices from years prior which seem to have not sold at all, or if they did, the numbers were so small they didn't get recorded. This device was recorded as selling well enough to be described as "a quick hit", "successful" ("first successful, mass marketed package automatic electric refrigeration unit"). The book you found states that it was "the first to survive its infancy". It's v2, Isko, sold three times as much, and then GE bought the patents, and released a v3 (or v4, whatever) that sold millions. How to describe this and not be misleading? It wasn't the first "commercial" product. "Successful" is ambiguous. We could quote the book directly for the hook, maybe "was "the first electric household refrigerator to survive its infancy"?" Although it's quite subjective which quotation we prefer. Any preferences? _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 07:04, 4 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This was technology that was merely a smaller version of a well-established larger commercial predecessor. There were tens of thousands of people who could kludge together a mechanical refrigeration unit for an icebox by the time this “invention” was created. We have an example provided of a substantially similar earlier version commercially sold. Perhaps, just perhaps, we should listen to what that says about any source that claims this was an out-of-the-blue original. Qwirkle (talk) 15:35, 4 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I prefer to focus on what the reliable sources, cited here, say. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:26, 6 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The “reliable sources” contradict each other, and sometimes themselves. Qwirkle (talk) 15:47, 6 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Qwirkle Which is why the article provide quotations with attribution (in the form of references). What else would you have us do? Deciding which source is 'correct and best' would be ORish/editorializing. When reliable sources disagree, we inform the reader about this. Also, I am not sure they contradict anything, it's all a matter of terminology (defining what a refrigerator is; you yourself made a good point that some understood it as an icebox too, while others think of it as a modern fridge running on electricity). _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 04:23, 7 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]