Talk:City of Angels (Thirty Seconds to Mars song)

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City of Angels (Thirty Seconds to Mars song) is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so.

This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on May 21, 2015.

Article milestones
Date	Process	Result
September 16, 2014	Featured article candidate	Not promoted
November 16, 2014	Guild of Copy Editors	Copyedited
December 24, 2014	Featured article candidate	Not promoted
February 21, 2015	Featured article candidate	Not promoted
March 25, 2015	Peer review	Reviewed
April 30, 2015	Featured article candidate	Promoted
Current status: Featured article

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Songs

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Songs, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of songs on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.SongsWikipedia:WikiProject SongsTemplate:WikiProject Songssong

Thirty Seconds or 30 Seconds?

The answer is obvious. Yes, all of the material the band have released up until the "Night of the Hunter" promo has been released under 30 Seconds to Mars. But from the release of "Up in the Air" in March of this year, their material released thus far and their presence in media and online have been under Thirty Seconds to Mars. This is evident on their official website, Facebook page, Official Universal Records page, newly furbished iTunes discography and their Amazon.com and co.uk discography. I could pull out more examples, but I think you get the point!
RazorEye ⡭ ₪ ·o' ⍦ ࿂ 13:17, 29 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

How many times should we discuss about this? The majority of third-party sources use "30 Seconds", so "Thirty Seconds" should remain a redirect to it per WP:COMMONNAME. Read previous discussions here. Find a consensus before moving the article again.--Earthh (talk) 13:46, 29 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Genre

If Billboard describes Love, Lust, Faith and Dreams as an experimental record, and then says that the overall album experimentation shows up on the song, it appears a good source supporting the experimental rock genre. I'd encourage users to assume good faith and I'd like to invite User:Y2kcrazyjoker4 to discuss here about the issue. Thanks, Earthh (talk) 18:18, 25 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

First of all, I hate the word "experiment" in a musical context. People tend to misinterpret it all the time. True experimental music pushes the boundaries of what is considered traditional music in the first place through "unconventional time signatures, instrumental tunings, unusual harmony and key signatures, compositional styles, lyrical techniques, elements of other musical genres, singing styles, instrumental effects or custom-made experimental musical instruments." On the other hand, popular music critics tend to use the word "experimental" hyperbolically to refer to a musical departure or any relatively new sound for a group. If this record was truly experimental, I would expect numerous critics to be offering up numerous explanations for how the album is pushing the limits of what is music, rather than simply describing different musical influences. Also, to simply say an album's experimentation shows up on a song says nothing about to what extent. For both those reasons, I think the Billboard is insufficient to support calling this song "experimental". Y2Kcrazyjoker4 (talk • contributions) 18:36, 25 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

In Do or Die, the genre is clearly considered an influence according to its source. We're talking about an influence and unfortunately we don't have a large number of available sources. It seems that you want a review like this, but you can't remove sourced content just because you think its sources are not sufficient (or because you hate the word "experiment" in a musical context). Few days ago User:Tezero reviewed this article for FAC; nothing wrong was found for the experimental rock genre. I suggest you restore what you removed and seek consensus before making edits that are likely to be controversial. You talk about numerous critics who don't consider "City of Angels" as an experimental song, so I'm kindly asking you to include in the article all the genres which they consider. Thanks, --Earthh (talk) 20:12, 25 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

It's worth noting that I never said I agreed that this is an experimental rock song, only that that's acceptable to list given the sources. I think it's as radio-friendly as anything else, but genres do change meanings. (Seriously, think of five rock bands formed in 1995 or later that Wikipedia doesn't classify as "alternative" or "indie".) And I wanted the other genre that appeared in the body text to share infobox space with experimental rock for comprehensiveness. But I don't think Earthh has done anything wrong; it's the fault of music journalism. Tezero (talk) 21:21, 25 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Plain and simple, the source provided does not call the song "experimental rock". It says "variety and experimentation" show up in the song, which is extremely vague and does not expound in any meaningful way how the song could be considered "experimental". If this song is indeed experimental, then you should have no problem finding a critic that actually calls the song such. I would expect someone trying to get this article through the FAC process to provide airtight sources and not jump to conclusions. Y2Kcrazyjoker4 (talk • contributions) 02:14, 26 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm, that's true; I hadn't spotchecked. I've gone ahead and added "arena rock" to the genre field in the infobox as I cringe whenever it's left as vague as "Rock" (only "Pop" or "World" is more so). I suppose as a last resort, one could use Allmusic's categorization of the album's genres. Tezero (talk) 03:53, 26 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Except that arena rock is not a genre, it's a performance style. Y2Kcrazyjoker4 (talk • contributions) 13:10, 27 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Arena rock is not a musical genre. I've just found an article from Rock Sound which supports the experimental rock genre, "City of Angels is an experimental rock track, heavy with symphonic influences, with tones that highlight vocal harmonies" (Ritchie, Andy (June 2013). "Love Lust Faith + Dreams". Rock Sound (174): 79.). Before adding it, I'd like to know what Y2Kcrazyjoker4 thinks about it in order to avoid edit warring.--Earthh (talk) 13:00, 28 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Once again, though, this reference/quote does nothing to expound upon the critic's "experimental rock" label for the song, which is more or less made in passing. If this song was "experimental", I would expect some kind of explanation or analysis to back that up (particularly in a FAC-quality article about a song and its composition). As it is, the song is written in the predominant "verse-chorus" form used in popular music, follows a standard chord progression, has a vocal style typical of any rock anthem, is arranged in a standard 4/4 time signature, uses typical instrument tunings, and has an oft-used lyrical technique. All of these things put it firmly out of the realm of "experimental". If you want a truly "experimental rock" song, here's an example for you - something from one of John Frusciante's solo albums. File:My_Smile_is_a_Rifle.ogg Y2Kcrazyjoker4 (talk • contributions) 14:01, 28 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I suggest you to become a professional writer for some notable music magazine so that we can use your opinion about this song (I'm just joking). During this interview, they explained that for the recording of Love, Lust, Faith and Dreams they used non-traditional instruments, including taiko drums (which appear in this song), and a particular performance technique. It seems that LLFD is an experimental rock album and City of Angels is a song on it. The real problem here is that you don't like the label 'experimental rock' for this song. I know that this is a FAC-quality article, but we can write on it just what reliable sources say. Since Rock Sound is a reliable source and is more than sufficient to support the label 'experimental rock', I'm going to add its quote and the genre.--Earthh (talk) 23:37, 28 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Using non-traditional instruments in what sense? Instruments that aren't common to rock but may be in other genres, like taiko drums, doesn't make a song experimental necessarily, it would definitely make it closer a fusion genre (in any case, a drum is still a drum). Also, I don't know what a "particular performance technique" is supposed to mean. I do know that all of the aforementioned characteristics of the song that I described above make it a radio-friendly rock anthem, which is not what experimental music is. Simply adding some synthesizers and a Japanese drum to a song doesn't make it experimental. Y2Kcrazyjoker4 (talk • contributions) 01:59, 29 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

To further illustrate my point, here are some more reviews from critics. Drowned in Sound says: "Third song 'City Of Angels' is the nadir; a limp, soulless slab of soft-rock that even Gutterflower era Goo Goo Dolls would consider toothless." Contactmusic.com says: "'City Of Angels' finds the trio in a less aggressive mood as they move toward U2-style stadium rock and particularly beneficial to the song is Leto toning down his vocal delivery." AltSounds says: "Not to be different or anything, but 'City of Angels' is by far my least favorite song - it's just trying too hard to be stadium level epic and whilst it actually kind of achieves it, I again am reminded of U2, not the early days great band, the shitty stadium band that wrote the same song over and over." musicOMH says: "while City Of Angles is the sort of corny ballad that makes 30 Seconds To Mars such a love-them-or-hate-them band". CraveOnline says: "'City Of Angels' is one of my favorites in this salad of pretentious delights. Thirty Seconds To Mars stretch their ballad muscles here, which really means there's very little music playing when Leto begins his narrative about the quite desperation of Los Angeles... Attempting 'atmosphere' with clunky piano, synths and random drum strikes, Leto opens his notebook and allows more winning words to escape". If I can gather anything from these additional quotes, it's that there is no consensus on how to label the song, and that there are many more negative reviews than the article lets on. Y2Kcrazyjoker4 (talk • contributions) 14:32, 29 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Look, I'm writing just what reliable sources say; if Billboard says the overall album experimentation shows up on this song, and then Rock Sound calls this an experimental rock song, I put this in the article. I would not consider the "soulless slab of soft-rock" which Drowned in Sound talks about since soft rock is a radio format - related to pop, rock and jazz (oh, 30STM is a jazz band!) - which doesn't exist anymore. The "stadium rock" of Contactmusic and AltSounds is a synonym of arena rock (which is not a genre - as you also said - so I wonder what's the point of these quotes). "ballad" is not a musical genre. I'll focus on the critical reception later on the FAC - you quoted three negative opinions which don't seem to be so relevant when you have almost universally positive reviews. However, I'll work on it.--Earthh (talk) 18:27, 6 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"Experimentation" and "experimental music" are not one and the same. The Billboard source should not be used to source a genre for this song because it does not explicitly call the song "experimental rock" or "experimental music". More to the point... because critics regularly abuse the word "experiment"/"experimental" to describe any artist's attempt to incorporate other musical influences into their sound, a reference for the genre (a pretty controversial addition to make, IMO) really needs to provide some meaningful description of how this song pushes the boundaries of what can be considered rock music, rather than making a drive-by mention of the word. Otherwise, it provides no value and doesn't have any legs to stand on. I'll return to the above quote I already used to further make this point: which of the following does this song actually employ and are there any sources that back that up? "unconventional time signatures, instrumental tunings, unusual harmony and key signatures, compositional styles, lyrical techniques, elements of other musical genres, singing styles, instrumental effects or custom-made experimental musical instruments" Y2Kcrazyjoker4 (talk • contributions) 14:21, 8 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

You're removing sourced content which is most definitely considered disruptive editing. There's nothing wrong with that source, Rock Sound is considered professional for music reviews and basing your edits on your point of view constitutes original research. I reverted your edit one more time; if you continue, I'm forced to ask administrator attention and seek dispute resolution. Moreover, your disruptive editing might prevent the article to reach the FA status.--Earthh (talk) 14:46, 8 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I'm far less concerned with the article's pending FA status as I am making sure it is in a deserving state to reach that status. As it stands, I think anyone who has heard this song would probably scratch their head at the notion that this is an "experimental rock" song. You still have not answered my question: what source out there supports the current genre by addressing any of following elements of an experimental rock song? "unconventional time signatures, instrumental tunings, unusual harmony and key signatures, compositional styles, lyrical techniques, elements of other musical genres, singing styles, instrumental effects or custom-made experimental musical instruments". To my ear, this song is as radio-friendly and straightforward as a rock anthem gets and I find none of the above in the song. I think most critics would agree, since none have identified these qualities in the song. Y2Kcrazyjoker4 (talk • contributions) 14:14, 11 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, but this really doesn't matter. I remember critics calling this band both hard rock and alternative rock, and then progressive rock and emo, which are out-and-out contradictions. Wikipedia is based on sources and if these inconvenient situations happen, it's the fault of music journalism. A lot of critics talk about greater variety in the song and album, they talk about non-traditional instruments and unusual performance technique, I suppose they related all this to the experimental rock genre.--Earthh (talk) 16:24, 13 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

What non-traditional instruments are you talking about? What "unusual" performance technique are you talking about? None of this is discussed in the article, probably because no critics have identified these items in the song. Also, what is your point about contradicting descriptions? Just cherry pick one because someone agrees with it? Cite them all? When situations like this arise, the most sensible thing is not to debate the merits of each subgenre or description but rather go with a broad genre everyone can agree with (e.g. simply "rock"). Y2Kcrazyjoker4 (talk • contributions) 15:28, 18 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with you, proceed with the edit.--Earthh (talk) 15:37, 3 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Copy-edit

Hello! I've just completed a copy-edit as requested on the GOCE requests page. I wanted to bring attention to the "who?" and "clarify" tags I've added to the music video synopsis section so that they aren't missed. Who because it's unclear if the subject is Haywood or her mother, and clarify because "living rough" is vague. kara❈talk 03:03, 12 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Brandy Aniston

There's a Wikipedia article about Brandy Aniston, and the porn actress appears in the City of Angels music video. I don't think she's in the credits and there aren't many sources mentioning that it's actually her. Does that prevent us from including her in this article? --Rose (talk) 05:25, 21 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, I found a news story from what seems to be a reliable publisher called XBIZ. --Rose (talk) 05:33, 21 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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