Talk:Chhoah-peng

No defining origin of Baobing

If you take a look at the NY Times article, it's honestly meant for an entertainment piece and no credible research was presented. Also, just because people ate "shaved ice" does not mean the Baobing today originates from there. Various Asian countries eat different types of shaved ice, just because some form of shaved ice was eaten back in Tang dynasty does not mean Baobing originates there. If anything, the Baobing (likely not even called Baobing) is significantly different from it is today. That's like saying rice was originally first cultivated in China, so any rice dishes today all originates from China. This is severely false attribution and flawed argument.

There's even some sources (although equally not credible) that explains the Taiwanese Baobing today actually came from Japanese occupation era. Furthremore, the Chinese Baobing today is very different from Taiwanese. And Chinese Wiki actually says Taiwanese baobing is being imported in China. Therefore, to avoid confusion and controversy, I've decided to remove the origin here.Jjj84206 (talk) 16:10, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

@Ephemform: I want to direct you to this discussion so we can avoid edit warring. Please note that for many of your edits, when you can present credible sources, such as Gua bao, Taiwanese beef noodle soup, Lao Gan Ma ...etc, I have no debate and have always supported your edits. Similarly, your recent new article to Taiwanese beef noodles was great. That being said, the discussion in regards to Baobing is a direct copy of our previous discussion on beef noodle soup. If you recall, you were convinced by me that just because someone adds beef in a bowl of noodles does not make it "beef noodle soup" that exists today. As a Taiwanese yourself from Kinmen, you must understand that the Taiwanese shaved ice today, despite sharing the "baobing" name (which nowadays is rarely used and most people use 剉冰), is completely different from those in China. Partially, that's because Taiwan's tropical weather allows it to gain access to abundance of fruits that can be difficult to obtain in China. Therefore, you edits to attribute Baobing to China is not reasonable, similar to your previous attempt to attribute Beef noodles to China.

Furthermore, the article that is used to prove Baobing being first consumed in Tang dynasty was not credible. There's absolutely no academic research, English or Chinese, that can accredit this statement. In fact, if you look at the history section of Bingsu (Korean shaved ice), you'll see that some sort of ice dessert was already been eaten in China 3000 BC. That's way before Tang dynasty, so why are we saying it first emerged in that period, purely based on an entertainment article? Furthermore, the iced dessert consumed in the past is vastly different from those today. Just because I mix ice with honey does NOT make it Baobing. Unless we can have concrete evidence in classical Chinese documenting the exact ingredients, the way it's made, the fruits it contained, the sauces it used, and how it's exactly passed generations after generations from China to Taiwan, then you cannot say Baobing originates there.

In fact, the Chinese Wikipedia explains that Baobing was created in Taiwan during Japanese rule when the technologies to make shaved ice was brought to Taiwan. Then, Baobing is exported to China. I find this theory to be much more credible because shaved ice isn't easy to make. There are credible sources that explain how huge blocks of ice was "shaved" to produce Kakigōri (Japanese Shaved Ice), this is very similar to how Baobing is made. In contrast, there's no documented source that explains ice in China was made the same/similar way.

Furthermore, most Taiwanese media credit Baobing to Japan. However, Wikipedia is neutral, I do not find those articles credible so I've chosen to use "East Asia" as region (this was the solution we agreed upon back in Beef Noodle Soup debate), instead of calling it Taiwanese. I ask you to please stay neutral as well. Please assume good faith in my edits. I'm not against you but some of your edits really do seem biased such as this one.Jjj84206 (talk) 05:34, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

I further reviewed the two links you deemed as credible research. Upon careful examination, they do not meet Wikipedia standards as Wikipedia:Reliable sources:

1. "Classic Chinese Cuisine" by Nina Simonds: the below official description of the book indicates that this is clearly a cookbook with no emphasis nor research on Chinese food history. Furthermore, her past works were all cookbooks. She may be a good cook but definitely not credible here.

'"Repeatedly singled out as one of the all-time cookbook bibles, Classic Chinese Cuisine is a thorough introduction to the basics of Chinese cooking, covering all the essential techniques, ingredients, and cooking utensils, with more than 225 recipes, step-by-step illustrations, and full-color photographs. Nina Simonds has an unerring eye for the most approachable and delicious dishes in the Chinese repertoire, from Crispy-Skin Duck and Hundred-Corner Shrimp Balls to Lemon Chicken Wingsand Dry-Cooked String Beans."'

2. "Food in History" by Reay Tannahill: again, cannot access, but if you have a link of how she came to the conclusion that Baobing (not just eating ice) was from China, then I may change my mind. However, based on her past works it seems like they were non academic in nature. She's also by no means a Chinese history expert. I did a search on Reany Tannahill with Baobing and found nothing. Please note that you must have read the book or can gain access to the source of material prior to making such edits. Furthermore, one thing to mention is that, if there's not even Chinese or Taiwanese authors, scholars, or food historians that can exactly pinpoint Baobing's origin, I highly doubt how Westerners you pointed out can possibly come to such claim that Baobing is from China. Like I said, most historians would say that "some sort of iced desserts was consumed in ancient China", but you have no evidence that it was called "Baobing", and no evidence to say such is the Baobing we eat today. Jjj84206 (talk) 07:15, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

Link

I noticed the link to Baobing on the page Kakigori was missing, so I added it in. Apologies if one already existed, but I couldn't find one. I've incorporated some information from the Chinese-language article, as well as some original material. The nature of the article is not controversial, but my original material is essentially first-hand observation, so I'll look for some official English-language sources to insert into the page. Uomo E Le Rovine (talk) 14:17, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Almond junket

What is "almond junket"? 76.189.141.37 (talk) 01:00, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

Any relation to Bing guo?

I wanted to improve Bing guo which has been unsourced since 2013, but I've struggled to find any RSs to satisfy WP:V or WP:N. I thought since this is a related dessert, it would make a good merge redirect, but after reading through the discussion and edit summaries here, I think that might be a controversial decision.

Bing Guo has the claim is that it's a Beijing specialty, but based on the few images that come up in (English-language)Google, it's less "almonds and lotus" and more beans and tofu pudding, which indicates that it's probably a more varied and possibly wide-spread dessert, and possibly a very generic name for one. It would also be immensely helpful if anyone familiar with Chinese-style ice desserts can find something I can't (reading Mandarin and evaluating Chinese sources etc).

Pinging users who were recently working on this article @Kazuha1029: @Ephemform:. Your input is much appreciated. Cheers, Estheim (talk) 16:25, 21 September 2021 (UTC)

Re-ping for @Ephemform:. Estheim (talk) 16:27, 21 September 2021 (UTC)

Hi, thanks for pinging. I can understand why you're unable to obtain reliable sources. I did a search on Bing Guo and found nothing in both English and Chinese. If you google image, it actually shows up something completely unrelated. In China/Taiwan, I've never heard anyone refer Bing Guo as Baobing. So it's possible it's a completely different dessert (if the ingredients are almonds and lotus). That being said, the notability here is in question, I think it's only a matter of time someone requests it to be deleted. I also want to point out that there's no source that this dish is of Beijing origin. As someone who's familiar with food, I have actually never heard of this dessert. I do not think it's a good idea to redirect it here. Thank you.Kazuha1029 (talk) 22:58, 21 September 2021 (UTC)

@Kazuha1029: Thank you so much for looking into this. After reading your comment, I thought about it more (actually too much, because I had to stop and make Black sesame soup because reading about Chinese desserts for hours is really torture lol) and I eventually found a Beijing Tourism site with a near-perfect copy of the text. Since I couldn't figure out who really copied who, I've just put it to AfD because it can't qualify for a PROD without being 100% proven, and the extra drama doesn't help notability. Feel free to comment at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Bing guo. Cheers, Estheim (talk) 20:21, 22 September 2021 (UTC)