Talk:Charn

In Response to the Commentary

I may be mistaken, but as I understand it (and if I remember correctly), if Jadis is considered to be the offspring of Lillith and a giant, then she would not have any of Adam's blood in her. Lillith was created as Adam's first wife as an equal (as opposed to Eve, who was created from Adam's rib). When Adam did not treat her as such, she rebelled and left. Perhaps, in Lewis' mythos, she left from our world to Charn where she progenied the race to whom Jadis belonged. -Iavas

I have found evidence to suggest this, and cited it in the article. Although it is possible that Lewis was unaware of this "Other World" element of Jewish folklore, it is unlikely. Consider removing the chronology comment? -Elecid

Queen reference to Lilith

The Nephilim term is often mistranslated as "giant" in Biblical text.

Although Lilith was considered to be a dominant female figure in lore and legend, it has roots similar to the Nephilim. There is a theory that the Nephilum were offspring of demons (fallen angels called Watchers that were originally designated to teach and protect people but decided to revolt). God seeing the rebellion against Him and the destruction of the pure blood-line of Adam, bound these Nephilum into an abyss. It seems to coinside with the state of Charn's enchantment where Jadis is left in a decaying world in a frozen chained-up state.

This then brings about the mystery of the bell that Digory rang, waking the Queen of Charn from her spell. There's a hinted prophesy that in the end times of Earth the abyss will be opened, the chains released, and the Nephilim will once again roam the earth.

That said, with the Queen having giant blood in her, she is being directly associated with the Nephilim - something that Lewis would have been aware of. Lewis also made a distinction between a Son of Adam and a Daughter of Eve. Apparently, Jadis could have been a daughter of Adam and not a daughter of Eve.

In a political aspect, Jadis could have been representing another "giant" - namely Nazi Germany.

The progression in the hall of images appears to follow a contrast to the common (and strongly contraversial) Socio-Darwinian beliefs of the progression of man from a primitive to an enlightened state. CS Lewis' take is more scriptural. The human race is actually becoming more corrupt and tortured in each progressing generation - not more understanding and peaceful. This will continue down to the point where the human race will become soul-less and not mindful of guilt. In this regard, Jadis represents the final representation of any sin-laden race: to put aside all concern and guilt for the sake of control and power. He saw this first-hand with the Nazi movement and the Holocaust in WWII.

The stark likeness of Jadis and Nazi Germany is alarming. They were both "white" supremists, powerful and violent. Though Germany's colors were (and still are) black red and gold, the Nazi flag was predominately red (the entire color of Charn where Jadis ruled). The only animal associated with the Nazi (that I know of) is a bird, which is stronly tied to Lilith legend. Considering the industrial mechanisms within the Nazi movement that involved disassociation with emotion to invoke fear and loyalty, it could definately be said by many that the Nazi movement didn't have a drop of real human blood within it.

Don't forget that in the Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe, the children were taken from a world in conflict with Nazi Germany in World War II into a world in conflict with the White Witch. Even the period where the White Witch enters Narnia (from the Magician's Nephew) is speculatively close to World War I on earth, also blamed on Germany. So as the earth was gaining closure to the first world war (Sir Arthur Conan Doyle likely just finished his final Sherlock Holmes collection circa 1930) and the earth's opression of Germany would then coincide with Narnia's opression of the White Witch.

Charn a Ecumenopolis?

The article Ecumenopolis mentions Charn as a possible example of a world-spanning city. Can anyone confirm this from the book? Carcharoth 19:00, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Found the book. It says: "...on the earth, in every direction, as far as the eye could reach, there spread a vast city...". Later quotes also seem to imply that Charn was large ("the wonder of the world"), but not world-spanning. So I'm removing it from the Ecumenopolis article and adding to Megalopolis (in fiction) if there is such a list or article! Carcharoth 19:05, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Giants in Chains

According to what I remember of my studies as well as the Grigori article here on Wikipedia, the fallen "Watcher" class of angels, called the Grigori, were indeed responsible for breeding with humans, thereby creating the giant and destructive Nephilim, and then teaching humanity the art of cosmetics, weaponry, and other such 'evil' civilizational skills (echoing the legend of Prometheus, Loki, the Coyote, and other such Trickster figures of earlier religions). However, when humanity cried out for help, God sent the Great Flood to wipe out the Nephilim, saving humans and animals through Noah's Ark (yet again, echoing earlier flood myths, many of which are almost identical). He then chained the Grigori in the "Valleys of the Earth". Therefore, it was not the Nephilim that were chained (they were utterly destroyed) but the fallen angels. --Iavas

sources

The entire article is, at present, without sources other than book text; the Commentary section especially needs this, as we cannot say without references that Jadis comes from Lilith, or that Lilith spawned with a demon, or that Adam was or was not involved. I've left in some of the more direct references to the book, but we need some literary analysis or letters from Lewis or something to describe the actual thinking process. Another fact that needs checking, is the idea that Lewis did not have the White Witch's true origin in mind when he wrote TLTW&TW, as Mrs. Beaver's story could be just popular myth of Narnia. -- nae'blis 20:14, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

I highly doubt that there is anywhere written a direct genesis of the White Witch's mythical genesis, but the possibility of her being a daughter of Lilith and connected to the Nephilim are not necessarily problematic, as both are (according to most) undesirable. I doubt that Lewis would have sweated too much over which story was true. Mrs. Beaver could be, as you imply, presenting an unreliable account. More than likely, Lewis had a vague idea, but wanted to create her mythos at a later time. If anyone can find a direct statement from Lewis as to whether he had her origin in mind or not, please add the citation.--Elecid 01:47, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:

• Charn (city).jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 09:21, 9 January 2020 (UTC)