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Houseguests section

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Should all the neighborhoods that exist in LA be listed as Los Angeles or be listed per the source. I believe that it should be listed per source but figure it's better left up to discussion. TheDoctorWho (talk) 04:50, 11 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Per WP:NOR, we must go with what the independent reliable sources say. OfficerAPC (talk) 12:58, 11 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
It's not "original research" to fix a consistency error that is instantly verifiable by the linked Wikipedia articles. If the source had a misspelled word, would it be "original research" to fix the misspelling, when it is abundantly clear from the context what the correctly-spelled word should be? Iscoak (talk) 17:56, 11 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The source mixes neighborhoods and cities, when the standard formulation for indicating a location is [city, state]. The Wikipedia articles for these neighborhoods are Studio City, Los Angeles, Toluca Lake, Los Angeles, and Venice, Los Angeles. It's only through a redirect that the source's misleading/incorrect formulation "[neighborhood], California" links to the actual articles. If a houseguest lives in a neighborhood of Los Angeles, then his/her residence should be indicated as "Los Angeles, California" – why is this an issue? If the source had a misspelled word, do we copy over the misspelling, or do we correct it? Iscoak (talk) 08:09, 11 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Celebrity Big Brother 1

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NOW WE KNOW THAT THERE WILL BE A SECOND SEASON. THERE SHOULD CELEBRITY BIG BROTHER 1 PAGE. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.204.40.149 (talk) 11:08, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

These users saying the page should be renamed ‘Celebrity Big Brother (US season 1) are incorrect. The Big Brother Canada 6 Page doesn’t say ‘Big Brother Canada (Canadian season 6) or Big Brother (UK series 18). — Preceding unsigned comment added by DanniellaWestbrook (talk • contribs) 23:57, 18 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The reason behind that is WP:NCTV, which we previously said was superior to Wikipedia:WikiProject Big Brother when discussing the article title. OfficerAPC (talk) 14:34, 19 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 15 May 2018

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The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Page moved. Consensus was for the originally proposed title and not the secondary title. (closed by non-admin page mover) -- Dane talk 21:28, 27 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]


Celebrity Big Brother (U.S. TV series) → Celebrity Big Brother 1 (U.S.) – To match currently named articles or Celebrity Big Brother (U.S. season 1) per NCTV. The series was officially renewed for a second season making this the first season. It should therefore be moved to avoid confusion and per disambiguation standards. If moved this article will be redirected to Big Brother (U.S. TV series). Also note initial discussion above at 1?. TheDoctorWho (talk) 02:37, 15 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Survey

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Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.
Also, if the requested move happens, then this move must also occur:
List of Celebrity Big Brother houseguests (U.S.) → List of Celebrity Big Brother 1 houseguests (U.S.)

Discussion

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Any additional comments:
  • I brought up this naming convention earlier this year at the project talk page as all articles for the regular seasons follow the format of Big Brother # (U.S.) currently and other versions like the British version also follow this naming convention.
There was a heavy debate of changing the format from Big Brother # (U.S.) to Big Brother (U.S. season #) and it doesn't make any sense for the regular series to use one naming convention and the spin-off to use another. Naming this article Celebrity Big Brother (U.S. season 1) is going to require a broader, deeper discussion because I essentially proposed moving all Big Brother US articles to Big Brother (U.S. season #) and all the British articles to Big Brother (UK series #) & Celebrity Big Brother (UK series #) and that was very controversial and no consensus was reached on the proposed move.
WP:NCTV is a guideline not a policy and some exceptions can occur if that is the consensus of the community. Until a decision is reached to rename over 20+ Big Brother articles to match the convention Big Brother ([Country] season #) format then this article should be renamed Celebrity Big Brother 1 (U.S.).
On the matter of Celebrity Big Brother (U.S. TV series) it should redirect to a section in Big Brother (U.S. TV series) because both shows use the same format except for the Celebrity edition the length of the show is short and the rate of competitions and evictions occur quicker than the parent show.
For a long time Celebrity Big Brother (UK TV series) redirected to Big Brother (UK TV series) until the show the grew to the point it was acceptable to split it from the parent article because it became too big. When the American version of Celebrity Big Brother reaches 10+ seasons and when there is more information specifically about the American Celebrity version itself then it can be split into its own article. At this point a Celebrity Big Brother (U.S. TV series) article would essentially be a carbon copy of Big Brother (U.S. TV series) and is not needed at this time with just two seasons .♪♫Alucard 16♫♪ 05:19, 16 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Let's be clear here: WP:BIGBROTHER cannot simply "make up" any naming scheme they choose, in contravention of WP:NCTV. WP:BIGBRO is a sub-group of WP:TV, and must follow WP:TV and WP:NCTV conventions. If someone wants to hold a mass WP:RM on this to undo the whole mess of all of the naming of the old articles, more power to them! But that doesn't justify misnaming any new BB articles going forward... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 20:10, 16 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
We should probably wait to see what its actually named when it airs because all of the regular seasons of BB have the # after the name instead of referring to them as seasons and i suspect this one will as well. Spanneraol (talk) 20:24, 16 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@IJBall: I'm just clarifying my statement above I am not using WP:BIGBRO in its current form in any shape to justify the naming convention of Celebrity Big Brother 1 (U.S.) and for you to imply or say that is wrong. I'm stating that the naming convention used needs to be consistent with the existing naming conventions used for Big Brother articles until a consensus is reached to re-align all the various Big Brother articles to meet WP:NCTV guidelines. I'm against cherry picking select articles to use as examples of how something should be done then using that example to rename 50+ articles. I tried to be proactive in this and if you read my comment above I clearly state I proposed back in March 2018 about renaming all Big Brother articles to match the guidelines of WP:NCTV I even notified WP:NCTV of this discussion on the talk page in hopes editors like yourself would comment and help but the only person that has commented on that proposal that regularly works with WP:NCTV was Netoholic. If you support naming the article Celebrity Big Brother (U.S. season 1) then that's awesome but we need to work towards a consensus on a consistent naming convention for all Celebrity Big Brother and Big Brother related articles first than making the existing mess bigger. If you actually go visit the talk page of WP:BIGBRO you will see I'm in favor of Celebrity Big Brother (U.S. season 1) but I'm not in favor of inconsistent naming conventions like making the American Celebrity Big Brother articles follow WP:NCTV while allowing the British Celebrity Big Brother articles to continue with the current Celebrity Big Brother 1 (UK) naming convention. ♪♫Alucard 16♫♪ 03:30, 17 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Nothing within WP:NCTV says one series has to be consistent with another similarly-named series in another region. In fact, it says just the opposite under WP:TVSEASON if you look at the examples for The Apprentice UK vs U.S.. The naming of season articles should be consistent only for the series they relate to. In this example, there is NO evidence of this being referred to as "Celebrity Big Brother 1" in the U.S., so we should not be using that at all. What other seasons in other series is named is irrelevant. -- Netoholic @ 03:41, 17 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Really this whole discussion is too soon as it depends on if CBS calls the second season Celebrity Big Brother 2 then in that case renaming this article Celebrity Big Brother 1 (U.S.) and the second season's article Celebrity Big Brother 2 (U.S.) would be appropriate based on the example you just gave. ♪♫Alucard 16♫♪ 05:36, 17 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps. but remember that a move to Celebrity Big Brother (U.S. season 1) doesn't preclude a future change. I can see how people want to prep this subject area for the upcoming season, and since the RM is already started, might as well go for it. -- Netoholic @ 06:58, 17 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The thing is it is WP:TOOSOON to move this article because it all hangs on what CBS calls the second season. Wikipedia is not a WP:CRYSTALBALL because moving this article to Celebrity Big Brother (U.S. season 1) would be predicting that CBS (and/or producers) won't call the second season Celebrity Big Brother 2. Just like moving the article to Celebrity Big Brother 1 (U.S.) is predicting that CBS/producers would call the second season Celebrity Big Brother 2 (U.S.). ♪♫Alucard 16♫♪ 02:45, 20 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This is incorrect. The series is not known as ‘Celebrity Big Brother (U.S season 1) either. The series was called Big Brother Celebrity. The page should be renamed ‘Celebrity Big Brother 1 (US)’. As renaming the page ‘Celebrity Big Brother (U.S season 1) is incorrect.DanniellaWestbrook (talk) 23:54, 18 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 28 May 2018

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The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

No consensus. Don't quite see general agreement for this set of page moves; however, there appears to be ample evidence that a portion of these requested moves perhaps should be granted and a portion perhaps should not. Seems to be some unraveling that's needed. As is usual with a no-consensus outcome, editors can strengthen arguments and try again after a period to garner consensus for some portion of these articles. Have a Great Day and Happy Publishing! (nac by page mover)  Paine Ellsworth  put'r there  01:34, 15 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

– It has recently been determined and seems to be a consensus that a Wikipedia policy CANNOT be overridden by a local WikiProject (in this case WP:BIGBRO). Because of this ALL Big Brother articles should follow WP:NCTV meaning all the requested moves above are necessary to align with this policy. Also note primary discussions at the following: Talk:WikiProject Big Brother, CBBUK - September 2017 Requested Move, CBBUS - September 2017 Requested Move, CBBUS - Big Brother endgame template, CBBUS - Naming of various Big Brother articles, and CBBUS - May 2018 Requested Move TheDoctorWho (talk) 05:00, 28 May 2018 (UTC) --Relisting. Steel1943 (talk) 02:16, 5 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Survey (28 May 2018)

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Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.
Please see WP:OFFICIALNAME – the "official name" isn't necessarily the best title for an article under Wikipedia naming conventions: that's the situation we have here. These need to be moved because of WP:NCTV. However, if we leave redirects at all of the current titles, it has the virtue of affecting almost nothing – even current inter-article links can be left as is (as per WP:NOTBROKEN); all that may be required, post-move, is that the leads to these articles may need to be adjusted somewhat... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 15:37, 28 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
They don't "need" to be moved.. thats your personal opinion. The common name that people will most likely search for is the one that should be used. Are you going to propose re-naming all the Amazing Race articles too? How about the Survivor articles? They have subtitles but are still just seasons of Survivor. This is a very unnecessary move request that only will serve to make it harder for people to find articles they are looking for.. why are you wanting to cause confusion? Also, despite what Dr.Who says in his nomination.. NCTV is a guideline not a policy. Spanneraol (talk) 15:49, 28 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
It's not my "personal opinion" – it's WP:NCTV: and guidelines should be followed unless there's a "compelling reason not to" (which is what this discussion is really about...). And the Survivor articles don't need to be moved – they already follow WP:AT in that they use unique article titles that meet WP:NATURALDIS. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 15:55, 28 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
NCTV is a guideline.. WP:COMMONNAME is a policy and the number is part of the name. Spanneraol (talk) 15:57, 28 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The issue is the disambiguators, as you well know, so, no, this isn't just about WP:COMMONNAME. If there was only a U.S. or a UK "Big Brother 3", then we wouldn't be having this discussion. The problem is how you've chosen to disambiguate by country, which is non-standard under WP:NCTV. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 16:06, 28 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Country is the only way to disambiguate by them.. despite it being "non standard". Both examples by the way use the country to disambiguate them. NCTV doesnt actually say it cant be done like this... as it mentions specifically the Amazing Race example. Spanneraol (talk) 16:25, 28 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
As with any policy or guideline there are exceptions but NCTV states the way that articles should be named. The header says "It is a generally accepted standard that editors should attempt to follow" so why can't it be followed? The Amazing Race example is not endorsing that format, it explains how, despite the example using another name, it maintains consistency with other articles in the format used. A better example would be Hannah Montana (season 4). That season was marketed as "Hannah Montana Forever" but instead of that name it remains consistent with other seasons. --AussieLegend (✉) 17:51, 28 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
No, Amazing Race is a better example.. because its exactly the same thing. Thats how the show is referred to.. The Hanna Montana example is completely different.. that was just a normal season of the show that had a marketing slogan. These shows are never referred to as "seasons" as there is no continuing cast or storylines.. They are essentially each separate entities and they are labeled as such in the credits and in all marketing materials.. thats how they are always referred to and they have remained consistent with other articles in that format.Spanneraol (talk) 17:59, 28 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
As I've explained below, the Australian Big Brothers were not referred to as "Big Brother 1", "Big Brother 2", etc, just as "Big Brother", so that's OR. "(season x)" isn't part of the official name of TV seasons. That's why the series name is italicised but not the season section. e.g. NCIS (season 15) NOT NCIS (season 15). This naming convention is not unusual and is followed by other TV programs that also don't have continuing cast or storylines. I think you are reading far too much into this proposal. --AussieLegend (✉) 18:14, 28 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
As I have explained before the US, UK and Canada series are referred to as that.. so its clearly not OR but based on actual factual source. It's never described as a season but is the NAME of the show. You are ignoring the actual naming of the shows.. just cause Australia does things differently doesnt mean you screw up the naming of the american and british shows. And why are there no issues with Amazing Race which has the exact same naming convention? Spanneraol (talk) 20:20, 28 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
In all North American editions and in the UK, the seasons are literally called Big Brother 19 or 18. They are not referred to as seasons And the change is unneccesary and it makes the pages look uglier.
WP:OSE – the Amazing Race articles may also be misnamed, but I'm guessing no one has wanted to tackle that as long as the Big Brother articles are misnamed – if this RM passes, I'm guessing we'll want to tackle the Amazing Race next. And AussieLegend's point was almost certainly that, aside from the U.S. and UK examples, many of the others are misnamed right now because WP:BIGBRO shoehorned a naming scheme on these articles that doesn't even apply to many of the other country's editions. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 23:09, 28 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Just did a random check and CBS's official website calls the 30th edition a "season" and on Amazon Prime they list all 30 as seasons. Also (again, just a random spot check), The Amazing Race 5 should be name changed as there is a The Amazing Race 5 (Latin America). So yeah, those articles have their own issues. --Gonnym (talk) 16:03, 29 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose just because nom represents WP:NCTV as policy. It is not. It says it's a guideline, but even that seems odd since it's really a convention about television-related articles, not really the sort of thing that WP should have guidelines about. Dicklyon (talk) 15:43, 28 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
That's a rather peculiar thing to say. Naming conventions are common. See Wikipedia:Naming conventions. We use them to try to ensure consistency across the project. --AussieLegend (✉) 17:51, 28 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, finally a reasonable suggestion on your last point. Thanks for that. (If WP:BIGBRO had suggested that ages ago, this drama might have been avoided...) --IJBall (contribs • talk) 15:57, 28 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@IJBall: To be fair by the time I joined WP:BIGBRO its activity started to dwindle and for a few years it was semi-active. I honestly at the time of joining Wikipedia & WP:BIGBRO was not aware of WP:NCTV so I honestly had no clue about the mass majority of these being incorrectly named. Activity for the project didn't pick back up until a couple of years ago and most of its MOS needs to be updated. I plan on updating the project's MOS with all the recent consensus that have been achieved once the whole naming fiasco is resolved. ♪♫Alucard 16♫♪ 09:02, 29 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Also, should you change what the suggested new title is for "Bigg Boss"? All the ones titled "Bigg Boss" are Indian TV series, so that might not be the best disambiguator. Paintspot Infez (talk) 15:55, 28 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - I'm not sure about other countries but I used to watch Big Brother in Australia. I was a fan up until they evicted a suitcase in the first episode of one season, but that's another story. Here it was advertised widely, especially on the network on which it aired, simply as "Big Brother". If disambiguation was used it was generally the year so a lot of the titles seem strange and likely OR. We really should be disambiguating per WP:NCTV. --AussieLegend (✉) 17:16, 28 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
In the US, UK and Canada they have the number after the title. NCTV doesnt actually address this issue directly. Spanneraol (talk) 17:23, 28 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
And WP:COMMONNAME is supperior to WP:NCTV, which doesnt even address this issue directly. Spanneraol (talk) 20:22, 28 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, and as WP:COMMONNAME doesn't address disambiguation, but WP:NCTV does, we defer to the latter in this case. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 23:09, 28 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
That's only true of the UK and North American editions – what about the rest?... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 23:27, 28 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose in current form: This move request is too big as each regional variant needs to be reviewed and to see what each broadcaster/production company calls each season. If a regional varient doesn't give each season a special name then WP:NCTV guidelines should apply by default. Versions like Big Brother (U.S. TV series) however that use individualized names for each season need to be discussed in a separate move request since WP:NAMINGCRITERIA which is policy would override a guideline. ♪♫Alucard 16♫♪ 04:06, 29 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support majority of proposal, Oppose some I researched all the articles in more detail and noted my findings in my sandbox (which I posted in the section below). IJBall suggested I support the parts of this proposal that should be moved so I'm changing my !vote to Support for the majority but I object the following 7 special cases below for different reasons. I give one case Weak Support also noted below.
  • Strong Oppose All articles relating to Big Brother Africa since the show's official title is Big Brother Africa renaming the articles to Big Brother (Africa season 1) would be incorrect. I would support the move for these articles if they all were moved to Big Brother Africa (season 1) instead since I couldn't find any reliable sources supporting the current names.
  • Strong Oppose All articles relating to Big Brother Brasil after researching this version the broadcaster does name each season by number and refers to each season by its full name (i.e. Big Brother Brasil 12) or its abbreviation (i.e. BBB12).
  • Strong Oppose For Portugal's Secret Story articles only. The broadcaster does name each season by number and the number is included in the official opening titles for each season after the first. In my sandbox I have an alternate proposal for these articles based on the official name from the broadcaster.
  • Oppose for Big Brother (Finnish TV series) because the broadcaster did use years to name each season. The broadcaster keeps archives of the official website used for each season (http://www.sub.fi/bigbrother2007/ just change the year to see the site for each season) which refers to each individual season by year. The program mainly goes by Big Brother but it also has a secondary official localized name Big Brother Suomi. So an easy way to resolve this one could be using the alternate localized name for all articles and add the year. An example would be moving Big Brother 2 (Finland) to Big Brother Sumoi 2006 so that it is naturally dismabiguated.
  • Oppose for Big Brother (Bulgarian TV series) articles because the broadcaster did use numbers to name the regular edition from seasons 2-4. The articles relating to VIP Brother & Big Brother All Stars are named after the year they air when no subtitle is present. So for example renaming all VIP Brother articles to use the format VIP Brother 2006 would be correct and no further disambiguation is needed.
  • Oppose for Gran Hermano (Spanish TV series) because the broadcaster does use numbers to name each individual season for both the regular and celebrity editions. A quick look at the websites for the show confirms this except in the few years where they use a subtitle. An example of this would be the eighteenth season which was given the name Gran Hermano Revolution.
  • Oppose for Big Brother (U.S. TV series) because CBS does name each individual season by number with the exception being the seventh season was named All-Stars and the ninth season was named 'Til Death Do You Part . The logos for Seasons 2-6, 8 & 10 include the number as part of the name and using the Wayback tool to pull up archived versions of the official website also support this. The first season was retroactively renamed to Big Brother 1 in the special episode of the seventh season. Since CBS redesigned their website they now alternate if they used the individualized name (i.e. Big Brother 19) or may refer to a season like Season 19. When CBS talks about individual contestants from a past season taking part in another show their press releases uses the individualized name not Season x (See this press release where CBS uses the individual names for recent seasons (i.e. Big Brother 18) and not (Big Brother Season 18). What needs to be discussed in this case (and in the case of Gran Hermano (Spanish TV series)) is how to disambiguate these since there is no guidelines about this.
  • Weak Support for articles relating to Big Brother (Australian TV series). This one I spent more time researching than all the others but the names of the article must be changed like AussieLegend suggested. The show was never referred by either Network Ten or Nine Network as Big Brother 5 for example but simply advertised as Big Brother. When watching some episodes from the Australian series if the host on-air needed to disambiguate a season they didn't go Season 4 on air instead they referred to a season as Big Brother 2004. Starting with the fifth season during the season premiere the host would typically welcome the live audience by calling the then current season by its year. An example of this would be Gretel called the fifth season Big Brother 2005 on air. So either naming the articles under the current proposal or by year would be correct here. The reason I gave this one Weak Support is that I don't see any problem with the current proposal but the issue could be brought up again down the road if another editor feels that naming them by year is more appropriate. What is clear they must be moved as the current titles violate WP:OR as I couldn't find any sources (either directly or reliable third party) naming the seasons by number. ♪♫Alucard 16♫♪ 23:28, 29 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
FTR, I'm not going to change my !vote in favor of the entire proposal (because, like Netoholic, I think we need to untangle the entire WP:BIGBRO "naming convention" mess, first), but I would certainly be interested in follow-up RM discussions for a lot of the cases you've outlined here. The first two of your examples, esp., seem straight-forward, and I'd likely support a RM along the lines of what you propose... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 23:34, 29 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support all - I've read all the recent discussions and there is no proof that the WP:COMMONNAME of -all- these seasons use specialized names formatted as "X Big Brother #". I think that method was used by editors of the project to keep some reasonable level of consistency as all these franchises grew. To clear up some mistaken assumptions - WP:NCTV's WP:TVSEASON section does NOT dictate that you must use "(season #)" format - that's just a default when no specialized season name is used. We have some series which use specialized names (like Survivor U.S.) and others that don't and use "(season #)" names - the key is to figure those out series-by-series. So, while I am absolutely sure -some- of these seasons use specialized naming, I see this mass move as necessary shotgun approach to align with the default recommendation of WP:TVSEASON. If it goes through, then individual series later can be handled via RM and we can look at the evidence of specialized common names one at a time. -- Netoholic @ 04:37, 29 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per NCTV -- Whats new?(talk) 06:39, 29 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
That doesnt make sense though.. why move all the articles BEFORE figuring out what they should be named? This move request should be tabled and they should be handled series by series to avoid duplicating work and just confusing the entire thing. In general I support the namings that Alucard 16 has mentioned below. Spanneraol (talk) 00:52, 30 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Moving them all to the default should be done first, and those that can demonstrate valid exceptions can be discussed individually. Even if some go back, it leaves a structure of redirects in place. -- Netoholic @ 02:14, 30 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@JFG: This request is not about how it improves the encyclopedia for the readers but weather or not the current articles are named correctly per Wikipedia's already established naming conventions. TheDoctorWho (talk) 19:08, 2 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I have read your nomination rationale carefully and I am fully aware of your intent. My point remains: everything we do should improve the encyclopedia for our readers. A systematic application of a naming convention does not necessarily help, and it is my judgment as an editor and as a reader that the blanket changes proposed would not be generally helpful. — JFG talk 19:56, 2 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support for US, UK, and Australia only. The other series have enough possible issues with naming that I can't support them in this bulk proposal. power~enwiki (π, ν) 20:04, 2 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per the WP:NCTV, WP:COMMONNAME (especially the fact that we don't make up fake proper names), WP:CONSISTENCY, and WP:Common sense. There is no such thing as Big Brother 1. Our standard naming pattern is "Title (country season X)" (when all of those element are needed for both scope and disambiguation; otherwise "Title (country)" or "Title (season X)" or just "Title").  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  13:28, 7 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    PS: It appears to me that unless the oppose comment present a rationale that trumps both the policies and the guideline I've just mentioned, this should automatically go in favor of the suggested renames, because the present ridiculous ones were very the result of recent moves, the rationales for which were cheap. I.e., this RM isn't challenging an established consensus, it's asserting standard operating procedure, and there would have to be a very solid rationale to diverge from it.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  13:31, 7 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose I've given rationale in the discussion section. As far as naming goes, they are referred to as editions and not seasons. Even CBS Express, the press branch, in its title of the press release for US version, "CBS Press Express | CBS RENEWS HIT SUMMER SERIES "BIG BROTHER" FOR TWO MORE EDITIONS. The current naming system has worked for almost 20 years. The Big Brother franchise if fragmented across the world due to the many different versions of it. I will add that Wikipedia does have a page dedicated to US seasons for user navigation and research and all major search engines list that page in the top tier of their search results. P37307 (talk) 18:02, 7 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
You seem to be opposing the U.S. part of the proposal – what about the rest of the proposal? Ample evidence has now been provided that most of the rest are currently mistitled, no matter how you slice it. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 16:32, 8 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@IJBall: I oppose all. I've looked at the other country versions problems discussed here. I've read WP:NCTV, WP:COMMONNAME. I've even discussed and conceded a thing or two below under the Discussion heading. Even in WP:TVSEASON they gave an example why the way things are done now could stand. For example, "The Amazing Race 8" was known as "The Amazing Race: Family Edition", but maintains the naming format as other seasons, the second link being a redirect to the consistently named season page. Another, ...but the article should be named in the same fashion as the other season pages. WP:NCTV concedes that the current naming format is The Amazing Race 8 in that instance. (After 8 seasons, going with The Amazing Race 8 in lieu of something else in such guidance like WP:NCTV they would have not left it open to interpretation that is ok, like proposed here. Seems like a lot of hoo ha going on after nearly 2 decades of something that was acceptable and permissible with one side interpreting one way and the other another way. I see no reason why the current naming format should be changed, although it could be. I see the guidance and evidence sliced in a different light than you do IJBall. P37307 (talk) 17:57, 8 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
However, I would urge a new guidance going forward for new shows of this type that premier at the season 1 level. P37307 (talk) 17:58, 8 June 2018 (UTC
You are misrepresenting what CBS calls it. Even in your own link CBS use "seasons" (in addition to the "edition"), as they do on their own VoD website (for which the only usage is "seasons"). In addition, the second link you provided for the Official YouTube page, has the name of the video as "Big Brother - Season 20 (Preview)", the name of the channel as "Big Brother" and the name of the playlists as "Big Brother | Season x". This makes it painfully obvious that a) the name of the show is "Big Brother" and not "Big Brother x" as some have pointed out and b) that the number after the name is a season. Making the article name "Big Brother (U.S. season x)". "Big Brother x" is just a marketing shortened name and not the official name. --Gonnym (talk) 19:04, 8 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion (28 May 2018)

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Any additional comments:
  •  Fixed This request will continue to be considered malformed by the bot until the following redirects are corrected:
  • FTR, I, for one, am willing to discuss a specific "solution" to disambiguation issue for the U.S., UK, and Canadian editions of this franchise, provided that members of WP:BIGBROTHER acknowledge that their applied "disambiguation" scheme for all the others is incorrect (e.g. it wasn't called "Big Brother 3" in Austrialia, etc.) so we can at least fix all the foreign BB articles that are currently incorrectly named. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 23:15, 28 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Have those saying the US version doesn't have seasons, actually check that statement? I'm looking at the CBS official website for Big Brother, under "Full episodes" it has a "FULL EPISODES" title with a "Season x" drop-down menu. So it seems that the show's US creator does in-fact refer to each version as a season. Also, just from a quick search for the phrase "big brother us season 20" i found a few links in the first results which call it a season this and this--Gonnym (talk) 08:14, 29 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Gonnym: CBS names each season by number I'm not sure where "the US version doesn't have seasons" came from. (Nevermind I just noticed some new comments under the survey section and see where this came from) CBS used to include the season number in the logo from season 2 through 10. Starting with season 11 they no longer include the number in the logo but still refer to each season by the individual number. For more recent seasons CBS has used the abbreviations like #BB19 for use on social media and can be seen throughout the live episodes. This is similar to how they have named the seasons of The Amazing Race and the naming convention used for those seasons. From my understanding the issue with the American Big Brother articles is how they are disambiguated from similar titled articles. If you go and watch an episode of seasons 2-10 from CBS All Access you will see how they named the show. As per WP:NCTV the naming convention must continue even if future seasons goes by a different name. This is why the seventh season is named Big Brother 7 (U.S.) and not Big Brother: All-Stars. ♪♫Alucard 16♫♪ 08:44, 29 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
They more than just refer to each season by a number, on their website they actually call it "Season 5" and not "Big Brother 5". --Gonnym (talk) 10:32, 29 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Since they redesigned the website a few years ago to the current format when you go to watch episodes of past seasons you will see "Season 5" instead of "Big Brother 5" but if you load up an episode of season 5 you will see that the official name is "Big Brother 5" in the opening titles. They also do this with Survivor now where under "Full Episodes" the fifth season of Survivor is called "Season 5" not Survivor: Thailand but if you load up an episode you will see in the opening titles that the season is called "Survivor: Thailand". Also if you read this article from CBS.com when they discuss news about a previous contestant they say "Big Brother (Season 16) and Survivor (Season 32, Season 34)". So taking the website itself at face value without digging deeper you can find sources supporting both the current naming and the proposed naming for Big Brother and one could even make a case about moving all the Survivor articles to Survivor (U.S. season #). I can't speak for The Amazing Race right now because I have not looked into it. ♪♫Alucard 16♫♪ 23:54, 29 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
As I said earlier, I don't see any need to rename the Survivor (U.S.) articles, on WP:NATURALDIS grounds. Now, if somebody wants to go create a bunch of redirects at Survivor (U.S. season 5), etc., more power to them... But I don't think the current articles need to be moved thusly. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 01:09, 30 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I was not suggesting in any way on an RM to move all the Survivor articles. In a nutshell I used Survivor to illustrate a point that certain sections and in articles on the official website from CBS was not a good reason to justify renaming all the Big Brother articles to Big Brother (U.S. season #) because CBS is inconsistent in using the individual names for each season. I was using Survivor as an example because with that show it is clear cut that each season is individually named and no one disputes that but that the official Survivor website also has all the same inconsistencies in naming that the official Big Brother website has. To clarify my last sentence I was trying to point out that if the Big Brother articles are moved to Big Brother (U.S. season #) based on the way they are named when you select a season to watch under "Full Episodes" then someone down the road could point to this rationale to move the Survivor articles. So in the case of the American version of Big Brother CBS' website should not be used as justification for the proposed move was my point. ♪♫Alucard 16♫♪ 01:43, 30 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
My "read" on that is, because cbs.com is a WP:PRIMARY source, and how it refers to each season of the show varies, it neither justifies, nor rules out, either version of the prospective BB (U.S.) article names... On that score, my main issue is the disambiguator itself – IOW, even if we stick with a "Big Brother 3"-type naming scheme, it should be one of either Big Brother 3 (U.S. TV season) or Big Brother 3 (U.S. TV series), not just Big Brother 3 (U.S.)... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 02:24, 30 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@IJBall: If the way its diambiguated is the problem with the "Big Brother 3"-type naming scheme then I don't see the problem with Big Brother 3 (U.S. TV season). I think it would be a good proposal to resolve the issue to use either (Country TV season) or (Country TV series) as the disambguator depending on the country for the few cases where each season has a individual name (either number or year). ♪♫Alucard 16♫♪ 03:21, 30 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • I actually took some time to quickly research every regional version on this massive list and found that the majority of these articles should be moved as proposed.
  • Upon my research there are 6 regional versions that should be further discussed before being blindly moved as part of this large request.
  • Big Brother Brasil articles are already named correctly because the broadcaster does name them by number.
  • Big Brother Africa's season articles should include Africa as part of the official name not in the disambig tag. (i.e. the first season should be moved to Big Brother Africa (season 1) not Big Brother (Africa season 1))
  • Instead of renaming Big Brother 1 (Ukraine) it should be merged with its parent article Big Brother (Ukrainian TV series) instead.
All of my research I've done can be found here in my sandbox with notes about some versions. ♪♫Alucard 16♫♪ 08:44, 29 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Alucard 16: Doesn't that justify modifying your !vote, then? – It sounds like most of them should indeed be moved as proposed, so it makes sense to at least support those parts of the proposal... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 14:00, 29 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, I changed my !vote that makes more sense than opposing the whole lot just on account of 7 specific instances. ♪♫Alucard 16♫♪ 23:54, 29 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
If HaAch HaGadol is the better translation then I would think it would be preferred over HaAh HaGadol. From my experience IMDB usually isn't accepted as a reliable source is there another source, more reliable that would support this @AmYisroelChai:? ♪♫Alucard 16♫♪ 23:54, 29 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
see here Yevamot where you see אח is transliterated as ach or here List of Hebrew abbreviations where ח is a ch there aren't really any sources that transliterate האח הגדול but transliterating Hebrew the ח is a ch עם ישראל חי (talk) 14:46, 30 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
After this RM closes, I would suggest another formal WP:RM on this specific one – it looks like it needs a wider audience to figure it out... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 15:25, 30 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • CBS refers to them as editions officially and not seasons, although for traditional TV series continuity purposes they seem to refer to them as seasons. Wikipedia editors have left out the season in the titles for almost 2 decades, at least 19 editions, the Big Brother Over the Top edition and Celebrity Edition. We should do the same now, esp since CBS officially refers to them as editions in their press. [2] [3] I agree we have been accustomed to referring to recurring series TV as seasons. It does not appear that that is CBS's intent. Maybe an admin should reach out to the press officers at CBS, they have included contact info in the press release, and ask for their input. It is their brand, afterall. P37307 (talk) 03:41, 4 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • I'm location-blocked from accessing your links, but if this link[4] is the same as yours, I have a few comments.
      • 1. While the title of the press release reads "CBS RENEWS HIT SUMMER SERIES “BIG BROTHER” FOR TWO MORE EDITIONS", the title of the page itself reads "Big Brother Renewed: Two More Seasons To Look Forward To".
      • 2. They refer to the editions as "seasons" several time in the press release. "“BIG BROTHER continues to be the one of the summer’s most dominant programs, and with each season, Allison and Rich produce...", "The special 90-minute season finale of this summer’s edition of BIG BROTHER will be broadcast tonight..."
      • 3. As noted in the discussion above, CBS's own website has each "edition" labeled as season in the drop-down menu.
      • 4. What they call it is in the end irrelevant as this is used for the disambiguation. If they would have called it "Splader" we wouldn't have called it "Big Brother (U.S. Splader 9)" as that would not help readers at all. Edition is not a common TV phrase and it would raise more questions than it would solve. --Gonnym (talk) 22:03, 4 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I've done some more research in an effort to be true to research and intent and Big Brother officially released a teaser video. The text is This June, Big Brother is turning 20. The past 19 seasons of mayhem, manipulation, and madness have all been leading to the biggest summer ever on Big Brother, June 27. Only CBS[5]

I will add that Wikipedia does have a page dedicated to US seasons for user navigation and research and all major search engines list that page in the top tier of their search results. Category:Big Brother (U.S.) seasons. I've said my position and rationale above, think things should remain as they are, after 20 "seasons" and with the fragmentation of the brand across the world. It works. Nothing is added or enhanced by changing the way it is currently managed. I have put my two cents in and am opting out of this conversation. P37307 (talk) 18:14, 6 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

References

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References

  1. ^ https://www.imdb.com/title/tt4644486/
  2. ^ "CBS Press Express | CBS RENEWS HIT SUMMER SERIES "BIG BROTHER" FOR TWO MORE EDITIONS". www.cbspressexpress.com.
  3. ^ "CBS Press Express | ALL FOUR EDITIONS OF "BIG BROTHER" PLACE IN THE TOP 10 WEEKLY BROADCASTS IN ADULTS 18-49, ADULTS 25-54 AND ADULTS 18-34". www.cbspressexpress.com. Retrieved 4 June 2018.
  4. ^ "CBS RENEWS HIT SUMMER SERIES "BIG BROTHER" FOR TWO MORE EDITIONS". cbs.com.
  5. ^ "Big Brother - Season 20 (Preview)". Youtube. Big Brother on CBS, verified account. 31 May 2018. Retrieved 6 June 2018.
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

In regards to the requested move from May 28, 2018

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In regards to the previous move being closed due to a consensus not being reached I'm gonna go through the discussion and begin requesting moves for each edition in batches on their talk pages in order to align the naming convention of WP:BIGBRO and the overall guidelines of WP:NCTV. For this first round of moves I will be requesting I will not include the American, British, Dutch or Spanish versions since they require a more in depth discussion to achieve a resolution. I have already made some moves that I don't think would be controversial like merging the two Ukrainian articles into one and moved the article for the fourth Mexican season since it was over disambiguated and followed no present naming conventions. ♪♫Alucard 16♫♪ 05:53, 21 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, it's best to have separate discussions for each edition as there may be valid exceptions to WP:NCTV, such as the official name presented to viewers. OfficerAPC (talk) 12:30, 21 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support! From the discussion, it was clear that most of the individual country editions are actually misnamed and do not follow WP:RS on the issue, so let's move them country by country until they actually follow WP:NCTV. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 13:01, 21 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion at Talk:Big Brother Africa 1#Requested move 21 June 2018

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 You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:Big Brother Africa 1#Requested move 21 June 2018. I also listed similar move discussions at Talk:Big Brother Angola (season 1)#Requested move 21 June 2018, Talk:Gran Hermano Argentina#Requested move 21 June 2018 and Talk:Big Brother 1 (Australia)#Requested move 21 June 2018 to see how breaking each edition out into its own move request would work. ♪♫Alucard 16♫♪ 06:55, 21 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I submitted the last of the non-controversial move requests today in relation to Big Brother articles that do not follow the guidelines of WP:NCTV and has no source for their current names.
The ones above should be pretty straightforward and were not debated during the last move request. After all of these are settled then we can figure out the next step for the debated editions. ♪♫Alucard 16♫♪ 23:46, 21 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion at Talk:HaAh HaGadol 1#Requested move 20 June 2018

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 You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:HaAh HaGadol 1#Requested move 20 June 2018 . This request was opened up by another editor to fix a potential error in the spelling of the articles relating to the Israeli version of Big Brother. More input needed on this request to move before another move request can be opened to rename these articles in accordance with the guidelines of WP:NCTV ♪♫Alucard 16♫♪ 22:48, 21 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Infobox Color

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After Ross Mathews won Runner-Up and America's Favorite HouseGuest it was suggested that a different color in the infobox could be used. I made a bold edit changing the color after no one ever objected but I have been reverted without reason a couple times so I am re-opening discussion. Thoughts? Pinging @OfficerAPC:. TheDoctorWho (talk) 01:06, 4 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Removal of Redirect from Celebrity Big Brother 2 (U.S.)

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Earlier this week, CBS made its official announcement for the premiere of Celebrity Big Brother 2 (U.S.) along with the planned 13 episodes. With this information now in play, it's time to remove the redirect. OfficerAPC (talk) 02:17, 29 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

If we can build a solid article with the stuff we know so far then let's go for it; if not, the article will probably just be redirected again. TheDoctorWho (talk) 03:39, 29 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
 Working I'm working on a draft at the moment to see if there is enough to make a stub for now. Alucard 16❯❯❯ chat? 11:36, 29 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
 Done The article has been created. Still might be a tad too early but there was some news about it. I also re-tooled the structure somewhat to try to re-align the layout with WP:TV took inspiration from Game of Thrones (season 1) however I left the summary towards the middle since that is more logical for it to be near the voting history. Alucard 16❯❯❯ chat? 12:48, 29 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Big Brother#Discussion about Template:Big Brother housemates and Template:Big Brother endgame

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 You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Big Brother#Discussion about Template:Big Brother housemates and Template:Big Brother endgame . Alucard 16❯❯❯ chat? 13:25, 29 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Move discussion in progress

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There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Big Brother 1 (U.S.) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 12:34, 22 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

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