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Orthodox Jewish community?

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Helical Rift keeps removing the category tag that identifies this as an Orthodox Jewish community, but acknowledges on Alansohn's talk page that the town is 60% Orthodox, which seems to me, if accurate, to be reason to include the town among Wikipedia's list of Orthodox Jewish communities. Does anyone else out there have any feedback on the question? -FisherQueen 17:45, 10 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

If you head about a dozen miles west from Cedarhurst, along Seagirt and Rockaway Beach Boulevard, you'll reach Breezy Point at the tip of the Rockaway Peninsula in Queens. If you take a look at the Breezy Point, Queens you'll see that the community, which is explicitly less than 100% Irish, is placed in the Category:Irish-American neighborhoods. The adjoining community of Belle Harbor, Queens is also identified in the Irish-American neighborhoods category, despit ethe fact that it has a large Orthodox Jewish community. This is common practice, and I'm sure the Italians and Orthodox Jews in Breezy Point and Belle Harbor are not taking offense at this characterization. There is no valid reason not to include the fact that Cedarhurst (or Belle Harbor, for that matter) are Orthodox Jewish communities. Alansohn 19:03, 10 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]


I did not acknowledge that Cedarhurst is 60% Orthodox at all. By the stats that Alansohn has put on the page, it is clear that Cedarhurst is made up of many ethnic groups. Maybe we need stats on how many Orthodox Jews there are in Cedarhurst and go from there. My family is very close with the mayor so I will get in touch with him and get some ideas. Helical Rift 19:06, 10 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]


Here is something I found interesting:

To be sure, Orthodox Jews do not make up a majority of the population in Cedarhurst, but their numbers have been increasing in the last decade or so. According to real estate agents, many of the newcomers are young, and they have been attracted to the village because homes in the municipality are more affordable than in many other parts of the Five Towns, which also includes Lawrence, Inwood, Hewlett and Woodmere. (http://www.ade-re.com/1959/rodeo/drive.htm)

This is from the same article that Alansohn cites. So if the Orthodox Jews are not the majority, then why label Cedarhurst as an Orthodox Jewish community???? Helical Rift 19:50, 10 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • There is no definition, whether it be "Orthodox Jewish community" or "Irish-American community" as to what percentage makes a community Orthodox or Irish. Whatever it is, it's not 100%, and there's no reason that two or more distinct labels could be meaningfully applied in the same community, with Belle Harbor, Queens an excellent example of a dual Orthodox / Irish community. By the definition we are being forced to use, even Borough Park, Brooklyn and Crown Heights, Brooklyn would fail, and Kiryas Joel, New York would be the only community in the Orthodox category. The way it is used, and how I would define an Orthodox or Irish community, is one in which there is a sizable and cohesive community of that ethnic / religious group, which has its own community organizations, businesses, schools and/or religious institutions that serve the members of the community. Percentages are not necessarily relevant, as this could be met by a group living in one corner of a larger community. I did not use the article in question as the source for applying the category, nor was I the person who applied the category in the first place. Furthermore, there are no centralized reliable sources for religious population, as the Census Bureau does not track this info, and any estimates are at best guesses. As to the source which states that Orthodox Jews are not a majority, this was written in November 2001, and I have no doubt that there has been a substantial increase in the interceding five years, and a majority is not necessary. I also have no doubt that the 15% Italian and 7% Irish populations have declined since the 2000 census, when this data was collected. That any other ethnic or religious group should take offense at a community being labeled as an Orthodox Community is unwarranted. Again, if there are other communities within Cedarhurst that meet these criteria they should be listed with the appropriate category. Alansohn 20:40, 10 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]


Personally I do not see why a town, village, hamlet or city needs to be labeled as a certain community. By doing that, you are effectively alienating other groups that make up the community. For example, if there are 1000 people in a town and 60% are Orthodox Jewish while 40% are Roman Catholic, would I say that the town is an "Orthodox Jewish community?" Of course not and neither would you. I do not want this to sound like I have a problem with religion; I just have a major problem with labels. Sure, a person can drive or attempt to drive in Cedarhurst on a Saturday and see the impact Orthodox Jews have on the community, but maybe your eyes are closed to the high percentage of Christmas lights that adorn people trees and houses in December. To say that a town is strictly one type of community is arrogant and not respectful of other people that live there. It seems like we are going to go back and forth here with this. I'm not sure you see my point and I clearly do not see yours so I'm not too sure how to rectify this. Helical Rift 20:45, 10 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Adding the category doesn't mean that all of Cedarhurst is Orthodox. It just means that Cedarhurst is one of the towns where one can find an Orthodox Jewish community- a coherant group of a significant number of Orthodox people. It's a useful category for people who want to know where such groups exist. Removing the category means that Cedarhurst doesn't get included in the list of towns where there is an Orthodox Jewish community, and Cedarhurst doesn't get recognized for one of the things that makes it special. I just can't see any reason, when we all seem to be in agreement that there is a singificant Orthodox Jewish community in Cedarhurst, not to add this town to that category. It is no way disparaging to the other people who live in Cedarhurst, in my opinion.

In my opinion, we need a few more editors to consider this question who aren't personally involved in the subject. Helical Rift lives in Cedarhurst, and Alansohn is an Orthodox Jew, so both have strong personal opinions that could make it difficult to stay neutral. I've weighed in with my opinion, but I don't think mine should be the only voice- we need some more editors who have no emotional involvement to weigh in. -FisherQueen 21:30, 10 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]


What makes Cedarhurst special is not just the Orthodox Jewish community! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Helical Rift (talk • contribs)

No, it isn't. That's why my above comment says, "one of the things that makes it special," not "the only thing that makes it special." -FisherQueen 21:38, 10 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Actually I'm not quite sure how it makes it special. Helical Rift

Citation?

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Has anyone ever cited Cedarhurst as "Orthodox Jewish community" or is claiming such WP:OR? Arbusto 07:41, 12 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Please see this link for discussions of Cedarhurst's Orthodox Jewish community. The sections of the article that referred to this link were the ones that had been removed earlier and have since be restored. Please let us know if you have any issues with this as a WP:RS and WP:V source. Alansohn 07:54, 12 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Your link says its "heavily populated by Orthodox Jews" and it says "Orthodox Jews do not make up a majority of the population in Cedarhurst." Where is a source that calls this a "Orthodox Jewish community"? Arbusto 08:01, 12 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Arbusto...there isnt a source for that. Cedarhurst is heavily populated by Orthodox Jews but they are not the majority. A person can easily see that by driving through the streets in December and seeing all the Christmas trees and lights Helical Rift

A community that is "heavily populated by Orthodox Jews" is an Orthodox Jewish Community. An Orthodox Jewish community (or Italian, or Irish) is one that is an Orthodox Jewish community, not one where you can find a source that says "place X is an Orthodox Jewish community". Of all the ethnic / religious group categories in Wikipedia, none stipulate that it must constitute a majority of the municipalities population. Do you have a source that requires the specific wording you demand AND a percentage greater than 50%, or are you just making up your own set of rules again? Do you have a legitimate issue here, or is this just another violation of WP:POINT? We have agreed to list Cedarhurst as an Italian community, based on 15% of the population. Why are you challenging a far larger Orthodox Jewish community based on that same definition? Alansohn 08:11, 12 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
So no source then? And this isn't about WP:POINT as Helical contacted me on my talk. You are not being fair to this new user. Arbusto 08:15, 12 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Alansohn...didnt I ask you to drop it? We are all getting in trouble here. Helical Rift

I don't understand why Alansohn needs to continue this debate. I dropped it already!!! Helical Rift

Exactly, Helical Rift. We have come to a conclusion that we will leave in the Category:Orthodox Jewish communities AND have already inserted a see also List of Italian-American neighborhoods, which seems to address both of our concerns. Why is anyone else, especially Arbusto/oo, inserting themselves into what seems to be a closed issue? Alansohn 08:36, 12 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Closed issue? It looks like the Orthodox Jewish community category is up for deletion. Look..I don't think you realize why this mess started. Originally, I innocently inserted into the Cedarhurst page that many Italian and Irish-Americans live there without changing anything to do with the Orthodox Jewish issue. You deliberately deleted that. How do you think that made me feel when someone erases the existence of my people?? I am proud to be an Italian-American and I wanted to show that on the Cedarhurst page. How DARE you delete it. It took all this arguing back and forth for you to finally insert an Italian-American link just to appease me! And at 3AM no less when both of us probably have better things to. The deletion of my edit was uncalled for. Helical Rift 08:38, 12 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • I sincerely apologize for reverting your edit. Many articles in the subject have been targets of real vandals, and the fact that the edit included a North Woodmere instead of Hewlett as one of the Five Towns made me question the validity of the entire edit. I have never questioned the presence in Cedarhurst of an Italian community. I encouraged you to insert details regarding the Italian community early on. I more than understand your offense at the removal of the information about Irish and Italian communities, and when you reinserted it, I added a source to provide a basis for the claim. I think you can understand my offense at removal of the Orthodox Jewish communities category. I wasn't trying to appease you, I was just trying to follow through on the same suggestion I had made earlier. Again please accept my apologies; No offense was ever intended, nor have I ever implied that Cedarhurst did not have an Italian community. While there are other issues to be dealt with, I hope that you are satisfied that the Cedarhurst article can be left unchanged as is, for now. Alansohn 08:54, 12 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I will accept your apology but I will say that it wasn't until after you removed my edit that I deleted the Orthodox Jewish community category. Personally, I don't see the need for an Italian-American link on the page either considering their are other communities. Why can't it just be part of the Five Towns? Why put a label on a town? In terms of the Hewlett issue, growing up I was taught that it wasn't part of the Five Towns. Hence, the Lawrence:Hewlett High School rivalry so that was an honest mistake. Instead of outright deleting it, you could have just shot me an email asking me whats up. I would have been more than happy to fix my mistake. Look, this is Wikipedia. We aren't changing the world here. We are just trying to teach people new things and have fun along the way so let's not try to take things too serious. There is alot more out there besides sitting in front of a PC. Helical Rift 09:01 12, November 2006 (UTC)

Again, I removed an entire edit that I had mistakenly assumed was vandalism. I have no disagreement now or ever that Cedarhurst has an Italian community. At least 15-20% of the edits to pages on my watchlist are vandalism, and I apologize for assuming that your's fit into that category, reverting the entire edit, not just the portion that was incorrect. I must say that I am disappointed that you have chosen to participate in the deletion discussion for the Orthodox Jewish communities category. Its only purpose is as described; to list those towns and neighborhoods with Orthodox Jewish communities within them. This is not meant to label a community, any more than Cedarhurst's presence in the List of Italian-American neighborhoods "labels" it as Italian. By your argument, ALL such categories -- Orthodox, Italian, and Irish -- would have to be deleted, as they are no less POV than the Orthodox category. The list of Italian neighborhoods would have the same exact problem and would be subject to deletion by your own argument. I fail to see how we are not all better off with these categories and lists and accepting that inclusion just means that there are cohesive ethnic / religious communities within Cedarhurst and many other palces across the United States and the world. Alansohn 09:27, 12 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]


I'm sorry but I just can't accept it. And yes, I think all these types of categories should be deleted. Also, I thought the issue is dropped. Why do you find the need to incriminate Arbustoo? Deal with the problem with him privately. We were already warned once...why do you need to stir up more trouble? If anything, I asked Arbustoo for advice b/c I saw you and him had issues in the past so I wanted to get an idea of who I was dealing with. Dude...let it go already....its almost 4:30AM!! Helical Rift 09:28, November 12 2006 (UTC)

I will apologize for a third time and emphasize that no offense was ever intended. I encourage you to review the edit history to see for yourself that I had no issue whatsoever with characterizing Cedarhurst as having Italian and Irish communities, and added required supporting information to back up your edit. I don't have an issue with you, now that we have agreed on what to do with the Cedarhurst article. I do have an issue with Arbustoo's interference, and I can't deal with him privately, because he has chosen to make a public issue of this. I am again disappointed that you have chosen to get involved with deleting the category in question. Cedarhurst's inclusion in List of Italian-American neighborhoods does NOT make it an Italian-only neighborhood and no one would take offense at this characterization. In exactly the same way, Cedarhurst's inclusion in Category:Orthodox Jewish communities does not make it Orthodox-only, nor is it intended to insult any other member of any other ethnic or religious group. That Cedarhurst has an Orthodox Jewish community is supported not only by the facts you and I see when we drive through the village or across Central Avenue, where I am as often as once a week, but based on a source. Given that Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, it includes facts, and the fact that Cedarhurst has BOTH Italian and Orthodox communities is a clear truth. Removing all of these categories and lists would only make Wikipedia even less useful. I would strongly request that you withdraw your delete vote for the category. Alansohn 09:52, 12 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry but I am strongly denying your request that I withdraw my vote. See my newest comments on the deletion page. Helical Rift 09:53, 12 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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