Wikipedia:Requests for comment/2024 Wikipedia blackout

Moved from Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals) § RfC: Should a blackout be organized in protest of the Wikimedia Foundation's actions?

RfC: Should a blackout be organized in protest of the Wikimedia Foundation's actions?

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As part of the ongoing court case Asian News International vs. Wikimedia Foundation, the WMF has received orders from the Delhi High Court to disclose personally identifying information of editors in a sealed cover letter and is considering complying.

Should the English Wikipedia blackout all of the site for 2-3 days in protest of this?

Option A: Yes
Option B: No

Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 17:29, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

For further information, please see WP:OPENLETTER2024, Wikipedia:Community response to Asian News International vs. Wikimedia Foundation, and previous Signpost coverage. Sincerely, Dilettante 18:01, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

See #Note from Jimbo for a note from Jimbo Wales. Boud (talk) 23:49, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Specifics

Clarifications were asked regarding the specifics of the blackout below. It is a worldwide blackout of the Article and Article talk namespaces (including the Main Page), for 48 hours. The blackout is in protest of the Wikimedia Foundation's choice to comply with the court order and divulge the personal information of editors under a sealed cover. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 18:32, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"Sealed cover" means that the court, but not the public, will have access to the personal information of the editors. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 19:11, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Due to the shortened timeframe we are dealing with (a four-day deadline imposed by the court order), this RfC can be closed 24 hours from now, as discussed prior at Wikipedia talk:2024 open letter to the Wikimedia Foundation. (Striking per WP:CONLEVEL concerns. 19:52, 14 November 2024 (UTC)) Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 18:45, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Survey

Support (blackout)

Yes. I don't have anything else to add that I haven't already said elsewhere. We need to provide a strong show of force against our colleagues' safety being endangered. --Grnrchst (talk) 17:33, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Addendum: Having read through people's reasoning for both support and oppose, as well as Jimbo's comments, I'm changing my vote to a conditional support. I specifically support @Theleekycauldron's version of the proposal, which specifies that a blackout would be in protest of the court's orders rather than the WMF, and that it would take place only in the event of compliance with the disclosure order. I worry that people are missing the forest for the trees and just trying to have a dig at the WMF; that shouldn't be what this is about, we need to be centring the safety of our colleagues and our opposition to censorship. --Grnrchst (talk) 23:33, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Option A: Yes Taken in isolation, the WMF actions with regards to ANI might not seem severe. Taken as precedent, amid ongoing serious Internet safety issues, the WMF action is deeply troubling. --Hammersoft (talk) 17:34, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, per above and the fact that this could attract loads of attention to our cause. E_F⁵ 17:35, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. A site-wide blackout is an option that should only be used in the most severe situations. This is one of those situations. The disclosure of editors' private information is an irreversible step that will severely damage our editorial independence. We must not let even the suggestion of such a disclosure stand unopposed. QuicoleJR (talk) 17:37, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Some of the opposers have brought up valid concerns with this proposal. I am not convinced to oppose, but I am now neutral on the blackout. QuicoleJR (talk) 20:19, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes In an age of rising fascism, threats to the flow of open knowledge are a direct attack on what we do. The sacrosanct handling of private editor information is a safeguard against authoritarianism and harassment, preventing widespread chillings effects at least, and imprisonment of good faith editors at the worst. We must alert the public that the project they love is at stake. Ocaasi^{t | c} 17:40, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes absolutely. ResonantDis_tortion 17:44, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. Disclosing editors' personal information for performing normal editorial actions is an irrevocable step that has the potential to threaten the safety of those editors, and will only lead to an escalation of requests for such disclosure in future. Espresso Addict (talk) 17:44, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes however I personally feel it should ONLY cover mainspace and talk. Userpages and project space should be left alone. If only to allow for communication, lest it ends up off-project. As that's not an option here tho. I am a EXTREMELY strong yes. I have also posted a link to this page in the discord as I believe this needs as many eyes as possible. May the 12 help us. LakesideMiners^{Come Talk To Me!} 17:45, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think that's a well-reasoned caveat, and worthy a parallel subthread to authorize those carveouts once we have a good sense of which way the community is leading on the core issue. SnowRise ^{let's rap} 17:55, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes I agree a united community response is best in this case as all other ways of communication have failed.--A09|(talk) 17:50, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. The implications for the future of this project and movement are weighty, and there are non-trivial risks to the persons whose identities will be disclosed. There has been clear community will expressed over recent weeks that almost every (if not in fact every) editor who has weighed in on whether the WMF should disclose this situation has said that they are at least in principle opposed to that choice of action. Nevertheless, it appears that the WMF is determined to forge ahead rather than run the risk of losing their rights to appeal the case or lose their intermediary status in India. Well, bluntly, neither of those outcomes is to be avoided as strenously as the one the WMF would elect for here, with it's many risks to our volunteers and the project itself. And all for a case they stand a strong chance of losing in any event, given the court's amenability to receiving questionable statements from ANI as if they are established truth, even be it under a prima facie analysis.
And win or lose, once other parties realize they can intimidate and cajole editors with SLAP suits, and that the WMF will hand them PII on those editors, all controversial India-related subject matter articles will become unmanageable messes and black holes that invite litigation and drive away neutral volunteer editors. Bluntly, I am mystified by the WMFs strategic reasoning on this one, and deeply concerned that if they were considering such disclosures in such circumstances, they never approached the community to get a broader survey of the movement's labourers on the advisability of such actions, before the cases became live. SnowRise ^{let's rap} 17:50, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. The court's order, if successful, will have a chilling effect on movement-wide participation, especially from editors who come from areas of the world where editing actually carries risks. See List of people imprisoned for editing Wikipedia. I would most support this if there were a message on the blacked-out screen saying why it was blacked out, which would prevent readers from assuming that it was because of technical issues.JuxtaposedJacob (talk) | :) | he/him | 17:56, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes - This is an existential threat to the project due to the obvious chilling effect it will have on editors from India. —Jéské Couriano v^_^v ^{threads critiques} 17:58, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) Yes! Per above; desperate times call for desperate measures. Babysharkboss2!! ^(XXX) 18:01, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes I've previously opposed action but as the case has progressed, I've become ever more acutely aware of what's at risk due to the precedent this sets. To disclose this info, even if just to the court, is a gross violation of the trust many editors place in the WMF. Sincerely, Dilettante 18:03, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes But I'm highly unlikely to be brave enough to use my own interface admin rights to implement it. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 18:04, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes Nothing I can say better than those above! GrayStorm^{(Complaints Dept.|My Contribs.)} 18:07, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) Yes The enwiki database should be locked during the blackout preventing any contributions. Morten Haan 🥐 talk • skin draft 18:11, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. The WMF has before stood up to countries whose courts pander to locals complaining about “defamation” where it’s simply reporting facts that are true, or are sourced to other reliable sources. It is appalling that they are choosing to allow three editors to face personal legal liability for simply adding/readding cited information. The site should be blacked out until the foundation reverses course or clearly explains why they think the users facing personal liability is okay in this case. And no, “we will pay your legal fees to defend yourself” is not a valid excuse to force them to do so. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 18:11, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes - this is an existential threat to Wikipedia, a blackout is appropriate. Tazerdadog (talk) 18:13, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. We cannot let the WMF's action stand. owuh (talk | she/her) 18:14, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, with sadness. I certainly hoped a step like this could be avoided, but it seems it can't be. WMF's actions have even emboldened others to threaten not only legal action but physical violence. [1] They will certainly encourage more of these SLAPP lawsuits, now that people know they can get what they want from them and intimidate editors through them. If WMF discloses to the court, "sealed cover" or otherwise, that means it's out of their hands and the court could release that information to anyone they want, any time they want. WMF should have drawn a red line from the beginning, and it's damn well time they do it right now, before the identities of the editors in question are placed at risk. If that means WMF pulls out of India, WMF needs to pull out of India. If that means India blocks Wikipedia, India blocks Wikipedia. WMF helping someone to harass editors for editing articles with well-sourced information must never happen. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 18:20, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes I'm up for that.Selfstudier (talk) 18:23, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes I think personal information should be kept that way.Dagriffpatchfan (talk) 18:23, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. Would love to replace the Mainpage with the original text of the office-suppressed article, but I guess that won't fly... Fram (talk) 18:33, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Full support I only share my personal information with who I want/am willing to share it with. fanfanboy (block_talk) 18:36, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, support Fuck bullies, and to fuck with enabling them. SerialNumber54129 18:39, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. Only way to get many people to notice. Jc3s5h (talk) 18:42, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. Best way to raise awareness. Anonymous Octopus (talk) 18:58, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, with reluctance and disappointment. I'm pretty pro-Foundation comparatively, but I cannot countenance the disclosure apparently acquiesced to by Legal. Yall saw the violent extremist on one of the admin boards concurrent with the period when the Indian editor whose information is set to be disclosed was communicating to us fearfully at VPI, right? This editor – our colleague – may face serious legal and physical harm for essentially reverting bad COI edits. In this circumstance, I'm willing to support any measure necessary to convince Legal not to comply with the court order. Folly Mox (talk) 19:00, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes I've seen a lot of funding stuff pop up on the project lately. A blackout will have a financial impact on the WMF. ~ Pbritti (talk) 19:00, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. This threatens and will edge US child privacy laws if this sets a dark precedent. If wikimedia gives out any personal information of any users what will the courts do if said users were out of their jurisdiction. Extradition. Jail time. Fines. Don’t let them control us also what about Wikipedia:We are not as dumb as you think we are that says “we only are governed by California state laws and us federal law’ •Cyberwolf•talk? 19:06, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes I`m an active user of Russian Wikipedia and don`t know have I right to vote here. As I understand. Today we give information about users to Indian court, tomorrow -- to putin`s regime, day after tomorrow -- to any regime, even if it makes cannibalism like Bocassa. Community has to say "we disagree with such way of Wikipedia`s evolution or degradation". --Ibidem (talk) 19:07, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You of course can vote after all its all editors •Cyberwolf•talk? 19:29, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes The actions of the foundation puts all editors at danger, and editors in some country in serious risk of government harassment and imprisonment. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 19:08, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. We are number one in free information, and blacking ourselves out should give everyone a chance to see for themselves a world without that free information, a scenario that we are highly concerned could become permanent in the world's largest country with internet freedom. Also, it's just two to three days, we all can wait. ミラP@Miraclepine 19:18, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes Agree with above comments on concerns about the precedent this sets especially as more nations slip towards authoritarianism and against free speech. Don't obey in advance. Sariel Xilo (talk) 19:19, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes The moral measure of a community is how it treats its most vulnerable. While it is outside of our power, as editors, to protect our own in India, we can at least get into good trouble for them. Bowler the Carmine | talk 19:25, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Beautifully put. SnowRise ^{let's rap} 19:34, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support/yes - I don't know how we're even going to agree on "we're closed" text but I've always thought we should do more to raise awareness of the situation with those guys in prison in Saudi Arabia. It's gonna be a good couple of days for WikiWand. Also since we don't have a PR department we better have a pretty comprehensive "why we are doing this" message somewhere bc the media will want to cover and there will be inchoate screaming from the rest of the interwebs. jengod (talk) 19:29, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support - One of the most doable, and hopefully effective, ways to take a stand on this. Reddit clarifies why beggars CAN'T be choosers. On the other hand, Wikipedia clarifies why editors CAN be choosers!!! (talk) 19:32, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, although I would much prefer if the messaging was more against ANI than WMF's legal team. WMF are not run by idiots, they are trying to deal with a scumbag organisation seeking to at the very least turf them out of India. Fantastic Mr. Fox (talk) 19:38, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. Also, wouldn't compliance violate GDPR in the EU? -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul (talk)
Changed to oppose. Yes, tentatively. I don't know how much impact this will have on the safety of the editors in the current situation, but I believe that if this gets enough media coverage we will set a precedent for the WMF to not let this happen again. My primary concern is the technical implementation, especially considering that an office action could take place to prevent this. Either way, we need to make our voices heard. I really don't want to set a precedent that Wikipedia will tolerate having our editors put at risk in this way. /home/gracen/ (yell at me here) 19:48, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Amendment: I don't fully support a total blackout (I'd rather have a banner on all pages spreading awareness of the case), but this is the only RfC calling for action so I suppose it's better than nothing. /home/gracen/ (yell at me here) 21:27, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes I am from Russia and I understand very well: if we do not resist, then we will cease to be respected; if I do not resist, then I will not respect myself. We must support our colleagues and protect them from danger. --VladimirPF (talk) 19:51, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm writing not for myself, but for an editor who doesn't feel safe contributing to this thread onwiki. They say the RfC should resolve with a consensus to blackout only if the WMF complies, which would in effect discourage the Foundation from complying but not directly interfere with the case. (It's not that the blacking out would be the deterrent, it would be the threat of one.) theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 19:56, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Clear Yes. We need to bring this to the public eye if it occurs, this could destroy the project. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kingsmasher678 (talk • contribs) 19:59, November 14, 2024 (UTC)
Yes even if no disclosure has been made yet. 3df (talk) 20:06, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes: if the choice really is between disclosing editors' data to an oppressive regime and pulling out of the country ruled by such regime, the Foundation should do the latter. Otherwise we cannot pretend being an objective and full encyclopedia. --Deinocheirus (talk) 20:09, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes This current case is a threat to the freedom of editing Wikipedia, and the ramifications long-term could be devastating. I understand that many editors may not consider this case to be that serious, but it could well be the start of deterring editors from editing certain pages if there are legal ramifications for doing so. A blackout would help draw critical attention to the case that has received very limited coverage by reliable sources, and could help draw support for the benefit of all editors as well as those concerned. CNC (talk) 20:20, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes Fascism has to be fought at every place possible. Allowing any sort of corporation at all to stick their foot in the door leads to a huge "slippery slope"- if the WMF goes through with this- where does it end after that? most likely nowhere. Sandcat555 (talk) 20:31, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes Important to send a message about the implications and consequences of this court action. Gamaliel (talk) 20:39, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Supporting now on my own terms and per Levivich. If this is the consequence of doing business in India, than the WMF should not do business in India and Wikipedia should be blocked there. Let the world know—that is what you can do if you're a global encyclopedia. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 21:08, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support That WMF will provide counsel for the outed editors is not enough to avoid a chilling effect, not even close. We need to be as loud as possible about corporate censorship. Paradoctor (talk) 21:15, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes It could be you next.--Laun chba ller 21:27, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. I've thought about this carefully, and I've read all of the oppose arguments and all of the discussions below. I do not believe that this action would harm the WMF's ability to deal with the court in India. It looks to me like the blackout will make it clear that this is coming from the community, and not from WMF Legal. And I reject, in this specific instance, the arguments that Wikipedia's role as a source of information should outweigh the reasons for the protest. I might have felt differently before the recent US election, but I think we all have to come to terms about the English-speaking world in which we live today. If we do not leverage our sway with the general public over what is happening in India, now, it won't stop there. The President-elect of the largest English-speaking nation is dedicated to retribution against his perceived critics, and has chosen someone as his Attorney General who is a slap in the face to anyone believing in respect for legal norms. It's just a matter of time before Wikipedia gets requests for the names of editors who worked on pages that do not present certain aspects of US government in the ways that the government would prefer. I've read what editors have explained about "under seal" and, while I am willing to believe that WMF attorneys are trying to do the right thing, it seems to me that the identities of the editors from India are now in jeopardy. We have an outing policy here, and we have compelling reasons to insist that editor anonymity be protected. Editors need to take First they came ... to heart before opposing this blackout. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:27, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Fully agree. While I personally think a blackout is too much too preemptively (a large banner would create public awareness and media coverage just the same), awareness needs to be brought to this case. Even if the WMF can't do anything about the Delhi high court, we need to set precedent that this is not acceptable and that we can and will leverage our power as editors to oppose censorship. /home/gracen/ (yell at me here) 21:34, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Adding: it is false to say that the blackout would harm Wikipedia's reputation. It would be received badly by a few people, received well by even more people, and just looked at with interest and learning by most people. And it's equally false to argue that we need more time. We know enough now, and hoping for some good news that will save us the effort of taking action is futile. Editors who fuss over why we should not do anything will come to regret that, when they become the targets of the next attack. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:58, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I feel so strongly about this, and I want to say some more things. I take Jimmy Wales very seriously, and I'm hearing what he says here. But he is wrong about this being misguided. The editing community needs to speak clearly and loudly about our values concerning the protections of editors from harassment or intimidation. That's not undermining what WMF attorneys need to do, and it's not harmful to our "brand" as an information source. It enhances what we should stand for, as a free encyclopedia that operates in freedom. Also, this blackout isn't about changing what the court in India will do. They probably don't care. But that doesn't matter. This is about communicating with the general public. The public needs to know about this. And that's a part of what we, as editors, are here for: giving the public the information that they need and seek. This is an encyclopedic thing to do. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:15, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sadly, this proposal is likely to fail. Editors who are opposing it remind me of the people who didn't want to ask Biden to step aside, because of the supposed need to respect procedure. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:13, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes They wanna take it far let's go far, let's not let fascists dictate the site and compromise the safety of editors. --TylerBurden (talk) 21:31, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes as this is a red line that should not be crossed and will set a chilling precedent for litigation happy corporations and undemocratic regimes to exploit, imv Atlantic306 (talk) 21:58, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support: 1) editors' private data must not be allowed to be used as a bargaining chip; 2) the WMF has a duty to protect the anonymity of its volunteer editors; 3) the political neutrality of Wikipedia must be protected; and 4) there are few other ways for the editing community to get the public's or the WMFs attention. I would be appalled if it were my data being handed to a court because I happen to have edited a particular article. Baffle☿gab 22:00, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes; we need to both take the issue to the public eye and show the WMF we're serious. And this is an issue much bigger than one court case; it sets a dangerous precedent. Look at me; I'm using lots of semicolons; you should listen to my opinion. However, to clarify: I only support a blackout after the handing over of the documents. Otherwise it would be premature. Cremastra ‹ u — c › 22:06, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes We must do everything possible to show WMF how we feel about this. Simonm223 (talk) 22:08, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Absolutely. I originally brought this idea up as a one off on Wikipedia:Village pump (WMF), not thinking it would resort to this. It's the only way the WMF might listen. LilianaUwU ^{(talk / contributions)} 22:24, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes The WMF has given us no indication at this point that they don't actually plan to comply and have been actively cagey about answering any questions in regards to the situation. That can't be answered with just "we're in a court case, so we can't discuss the details", particularly when legal reporting on the case is actively saying that the WMF plans to comply. By this point, when they haven't given any indication to us otherwise or even acknowledged the almost 900 strong petition, I don't trust their choice of actions in the coming days. And I do consider giving up the three editors' email addresses, which may have identifying information or even be their full legal names depending on the person, to be just as serious of a personal information breach as anything else. We need to take an action here that is actually noticeable, to both the general public and which the WMF can't just ignore. The press from such an action would also be useful in dealing with this over-reaching judge. Silver seren^C 22:27, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes This would not only pressure the WMF, it would hugely amplify the Streisand effect, leading ANI to possibly realise that its best option is damage reduction: withdraw the court case rather than guarantee that billions of people learn what WP:RS verifiably say about it. Just to be clear to any Delhi lawyers reading this: the "damage" is either, depending on whether you trust the sources or not, ANI's fault or the sources' fault, respectively: you, the reader, decide. Wikipedia - and WMF - hold no responsibility for ANI, nor for the sources. Boud (talk) 22:42, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. I was initially apprehensive over the risks of getting this on board, since it may potentially damage our reputation as a website with American audiences, especially since the winning majority voted for a president and party who exploits free speech through misinformation and intense legal action. But if the WMF still hasn't decided to not disclose the information of the editors centered in the conflict, that's a far more brutal risk in not calling for a blackout than if we did. The Foundation needs to confirm, explicitly, that they are not and will not disclose the three editors' personal info, and thus will not allow any chance for disclosing anyone else's. And they have not done that yet, despite much waiting.
How big of a voice do we have to show to tell them to knock it off? Looks like this could be our biggest. If they're unwilling to hear from the community in time, so be it, we'll give our hardest efforts for it anyway whether we win or lose. From my personal experience and those of various editors, if the WMF has broken enough good faith for us to safely assume they'll be communicative with us, there's no reason to kneel to them now. Whatever it takes to reinforce a better connection.
Whatever consequences will arise (including banning Wikipedia from India altogether), it's more than worth it because this community is defined by having no exceptions for allowing this vulnerability, and it's better off letting Indian readers grow a little more and show redemption for us like a good appeal from a banned editor. And for the nationalists opposing us? I say they can suck it, and suck it good.
Also wanted to shout out a thank you to Tryptofish for their strident optimism, which aided my confidence a bit. I salute you. Carlinal (talk) 23:01, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks! Be confident! --Tryptofish (talk) 23:16, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. It disturbs me greatly that the WMF would even consider complying with an order to out the identities of their site's contributors. MarijnFlorence (talk) 23:12, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes if it raises awareness Nswix (talk) 23:36, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes Support blackout. Even considering complying is troubling, indeed. Wait? OK, sure, let's wait and be patient, that's really not a problem. Enjoy a black screen in the meantime.Mushy Yank (talk) 23:40, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes We must black out the site to show the WMF and the Indian courts that we will not tolerate personal information being leaked during a company's tantrum over being criticised. Clone commando sev (talk) 00:17, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, but I'm worried the scope of this proposal is far too limited. Blacking out only the English Wikipedia would not achieve our goals. O.N.R. ^(talk) 00:23, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. - Ratnahastin (talk) 00:50, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose (blackout)

Oppose this is a poorly thought out expression of rage. ~~What geographies is this in? What namespaces?~~ (resolved. Walsh90210 (talk) 18:42, 14 November 2024 (UTC)) Will the Indian court view this as aggressive contempt? Will an office action veto this? There are no answers to these questions. Walsh90210 (talk) 17:51, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The answers to those questions are either baked into the proposal or the consensus making process that will unfold here, or have somewhat concrete answers. The localities to be covered are anywhere that receives en.wikipedia. The namespaces to be covered will probably end up being all forward facing content (article and article talk space), but not project space.
The Indian court may very well consider this a contempt-worthy action, given their apparently deep confusion about the manner in which this project operates and the distinction between and relative roles of the WMF and the community. We must acknowledge going in that this course of action may have substantial impacts upon the classification of Wikipedia as an entity in India and maybe even the availability of the site in India in general (and that may be short-term or decidedly not: much of that may hinge on the Indian publics response to these events).
Regardless, the support for this course of action is not ignorance or denial of those possible outcomes, but from the belief that they are, sadly, much the lesser of two evils. This is not an expression of rage, but of concern. And if the community authorizes this action and the WMF blocks it with an office action, the crisis of trust between us will intensify, but that to is a situation where a lot of us feel there is no way past but through. SnowRise ^{let's rap} 18:07, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Why should it be the community's concern if a country blocks it. Why should we sacrifice the integrity of the project to appeal to a government that doesn't even understand it? Nswix (talk) 01:02, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose until we at least have a timeframe for this, else we'll need another RfC. For the record, I absolutely oppose disclosing personal information in any way that would make an editor publicly identifiable. Valereee (talk) 18:06, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
What does 2-3 days mean, @Chaotic Enby? I don't mean to nitpick, but we really do need a definite timeframe. Valereee (talk) 18:07, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Seems to be some question on what namespaces, too. Valereee (talk) 18:31, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Confirming oppose based on Wales' statement that WMF are pursuing what all of us want, even if they can't tell us the details now. Valereee (talk) 23:12, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict × 5) Far too little information What exactly is being protested here? The court order? The WMF considering complying with the court order? The WMF working with a court to try and get it to rescind the order rather than response given in the case of Arkell vs Pressdram? The WMF not giving editors all the information they want, despite the matter being sub judice? What exactly is being proposed? What is it hoped will be achieved? For example, has a lawyer determined this wont be contempt of court? What would be the implications if it is contempt of court? What have layers stated will be the impact on the case even if it isn't contempt of court (e.g. will it hinder the WMF's position)? What will be the impact on any future legal actions in India - e.g. will it impact the WMF's ability to take action against people paid to spread disinformation on Wikipedia? I'm not seeing any evidence that most of these questions have been asked, let alone answered. Thryduulf (talk) 18:08, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
These questions and issues actually have been largely discussed at some length in the previous threads, which we should maybe link above. I will give you my best impressions of some of the core questions: the issue the blackout is meant to expressly protest is the WMF's decision to disclose PII, not the ancillary issues. The refusal of the WMF to discuss the matter while claiming it is entirely or primarily due to sub judice principles is not the issue being expressly targeted, but a number of editors have opined in related discussions that if a part of the price tag of staying in the court's good graces throghout litigation is to effectively implement a gag order preventing the WMF from communicating with the community on this matter, that alone is cause for serious complaint and maybe reason enough to refuse to elect to engage with the court in a country where the WMF is not domiciled and does not have offices.
What is hoped to be achieved is to get the WMF to refuse to disclose the PII of editors who have done nothing but comport with this project's rules and do the business of encyclopedia building, reporting on the views of reliable sources. To answer your questions about consequences, yes it is very possible, even likely, that the WMF will not only face a contempt ruling if it refuses to the disclose the information, it may even have to default this case. The consequences of that default may be monetary damages against the WMF (which will very likely not be enforceable in the US due to principles of US jurisprudence on international comity which are too lengthy to get into here, but which I am happy to give a basic breakdown on, on your talk page, if you like). It is also possible-to-probable that the court may order a domain block of Wikipedia in part or all of India, or that Wikipedia may lose it "intermediary" media organization status in India, making it more liable to future suits (though, these too will probably be unenforceable if the WMF does not stipulate to the judgments. We should have no illusions about any of these consequences, and every editor should !vote according to what they think the lesser of the evils are. SnowRise ^{let's rap} 18:30, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - if bad actors are trying to stop the free flow of information, blacking the website out is doing the job for them. Llammakey (talk) 18:10, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - looks a bit like cutting off your nose to spite your Jimbo. ANI lawyers must be rubbing their hands with glee at this stage. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:17, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. My understanding is that WMF is doing two things: (1) providing the email/IP addresses under covered seal to the court and (2) serving the summons on the editors. I also remember seeing that WMF has said that they will pay for counsel for the editors using their legal assistance fund. WMF has already explained that they are doing #1 to preserve their right to appeal and to prevent the court from ordering Wikipedia taken down in India. #2 is not consequential in my view: the plaintiff (ANI) could easily have asked the court to serve the editors via their talk page since they don't have contact information. I'm also opposed to framing this as a protest action against WMF. They're doing everything they can do within the bounds of the law to ensure that Wikipedia is not taken down in India. If we want to protest anyone, it should litigants bringing cases against Wikipedia editors. voorts (talk/contributions) 18:24, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I also agree with @Thryduulf. voorts (talk/contributions) 18:25, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
And I also agree with @Levivich, @Polygnotus, and @Rhododendrites. voorts (talk/contributions) 20:37, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with everything here except the sentiment behind They're doing everything they can do within the bounds of the law to ensure that Wikipedia is not taken down in India. If that "everything" includes letting a corporation use the legal system to threaten editors and invite further lawsuits, then the WMF is just as culpable. Being taken down in India is preferable to creating an existential threat to Wikipedia's editing model and a danger to its contributors. It remains to be seen where they'll land on that, which is why this is so chaotic. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 18:37, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know what the WMF lawyers are thinking, but there's a possibility they've concluded that they can win this in India's Supreme Court. If I were the WMF's lawyer and had reached a similar conclusion, I'd likely advise WMF to do what they're doing here: share with the court with the assurance that the information remains sealed and pursue an appeal. They're also not letting a corporation do anything. The corporation has already sued the editors and will continue to do so notwithstanding what WMF does. voorts (talk/contributions) 18:42, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That win, which I can tell you certainly cannot be counted on, will at a minimum require that we sacrifice the interests, well-being, and possibly even the safety of volunteers, just to test such a legal theory. At the same time, there will be substantial risk of all India-related articles will devolve into unmanageable time sinks and legal threats. That is bad cost-benefit exchange imo, and an amoral choice to put our volunteers at risk to preserve the WMF's legal options. SnowRise ^{let's rap} 18:51, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Who is at risk? Their IPs and emails are going to the court under sealed cover, not to the plaintiffs. And of course nothing is certain; lawyers advise their clients based on their knowledge of the law and analysis of the likelihood of success. It appears to me that the WMF and its lawyers are acting deliberately and cautiously in this case (which is evidenced by the fact that they reached a stipulation to prvoide the info under covered seal, rather than letting the court issue a potentially worse order). voorts (talk/contributions) 18:59, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The WMF's legal options are our legal options. We as a community can disagree with their moral math. But part of why they exist in the first place is precisely because we have a need for a legal entity to represent us. -- asilvering (talk) 19:03, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Blackouts never solve anything. 2A0E:1D47:9085:D200:6474:93BD:459C:29E7 (talk) 18:25, 14 November 2024 (UTC) — 2A0E:1D47:9085:D200:6474:93BD:459C:29E7 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]
It is clear that supporters do not understand the potential consequences of this particular action, just as I don't. As such, I oppose. Izno (talk) 18:27, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose; "'I never thought leopards would eat MY face,' sobs woman who voted for the Leopards Eating People's Faces Party". It is literally said one of the first privacy policy sentences that "We are committed to only sharing your information in limited circumstances, such as to improve the Wikimedia Sites, to comply with the law, or to protect you and others." I am not willing to blackout Wikipedia because of Leopards Eating My Face syndrome. Kline • talk • contribs 18:31, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That argument ignores key legal realities and the extended history of the project: Wikipedia has refused (and currently does refuse). The legal rulings of a number of countries when comporting with those rulings would irretrievably undermine the work of project and our movement's values. China, Turkey, and Russia, to name the other major global population centers whose domestic laws, regulations, policies, and court or tribunal rulings have been ignored, with blocks of the site in those countries always resulting. This is in principle no different. The WMF is not located in and does not maintain offices in India. The only question is, are the issues and actions arising out of India severe enough for us--and more importantly, the WMF--to opt instead for non-compliance there as well.The majority of the community seems to feel so. The WMF's precise position is uncertain at this juncture, but that are agreeing to at least disclose information in this instance, and the community largely objects to that. If you have a more particularized argument for why we should adopt a separate tact for India, that is one thing. But the "law is the law, period" argument clearly is not consistent with the legal reality or movement precedent. SnowRise ^{let's rap} 18:47, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Snow Rise, please stop badgering opposes. You can take these comments to the discussion section. Valereee (talk) 18:50, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I would say most of my responses here have been to answer inquiries, not reject positions, but I'll abide by your recommendation all the same. SnowRise ^{let's rap} 18:52, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You can answer inquiries in the discussion section, too. Please, @Snow Rise, you're badgering. Seriously. I know you really feel strongly about this, but this is badgering. Valereee (talk) 18:55, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Val, I disagree with the characterization, but I've already said I will follow the recommendation. If for no other reason than to avoid further bloat in the survey section. SnowRise ^{let's rap} 18:59, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

And to say that the blackout wouldn't also harm the project's work because we have decided to clamour like monkeys over an issue that would easily be resolved by looking at the privacy policy? You can't have your cake and eat it too. Kline • talk • contribs 18:51, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose: Wikipedia is too valuable a resource and blackouts are too useless a protest.~Darth Stabro^{Talk • Contribs} 18:44, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Wasn't the main reason SOPA fell on it's face was that a large scale blackout occured? Reddit doesn't count, it was just badly managed. Fantastic Mr. Fox (talk) 20:14, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As one of the actual originators of the use of Web blackouts as an e-activism technique, I have to say that the real effect of them is not really measurable, and is thus dubious. The primarily work as an awareness-raising device for people not yet clued into what is going on. But what purpose could that serve here? The impetus of a blackout is to create binary opposition to something in a wave, and this is an extremely blunt instrument with a single and non-nuanced target: "oppose this legislation", "boycott this company", etc. The target here would be WMF (being targeted by members of the general public with zero background in the case, in WMF and WP policy, etc.). That cannot have good results. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 22:19, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. My kneejerk response is, of course, "yes, support anything that might help". But my more reasoned response is: in order to support this, I would need to be convinced that taking this action would not cause harm to the editors in question and to the ultimate success of the case. There is nothing here that convinces me of that. -- asilvering (talk) 18:49, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per Voorts and Kline. Throttle the free flow of information to "punish" the WF for doing something it has told all editors it may? D'oh! Gog the Mild (talk) 19:26, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per my and others' comments at the IANB thread. This RfC is wildly premature without an actual technical implementation plan, and furthermore, I don't believe there is any technical implementation would be feasible without WMF developer support. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 19:04, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Andre🚐 19:06, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose: I weakly oppose this because we don't know how it might impact WMF's efforts, which while we may be critical of them, are likely still directed towards the protection of the community writ large; we are largely not experts in Indian law and don't know how this may be perceived in the Indian legal system; and we don't know how this might impact the legal cause of the editors in question should they be further enmeshed in the legal proceedings. I very much agree with User:Asilvering's point above that we need to be sure it may not ultimately harm the editors or the potential success of the case. I understand, but do not agree with arguments that a blackout should be avoided due to the harm that it may cause to readers. That is the nature of collective action. Nurses do not harm patients by striking for more sustainable and just working conditions, rather they protect them in the long run. Editors "striking" protect readers by refusing to participate silently in the creation of a world where information and information users are less free. — penultimate_supper 🚀 ^{(talk • contribs)} 19:16, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Strikes me as premature. This might be justified in a few days, but for now, I'd like to hear again from the WMF and see greater consideration from the community of exactly what a blackout would consist of. —Ganesha811 (talk) 19:22, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose blackingout the English Wikipedia is a bad idea. Instead blackout only Wikipedia in India. Catfurball (talk) 19:23, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
But that's probably what they want. Instead, one might publish detailed information in some huge pop-up for all Indian Wikipedia users to raise awareness to the case. Nakonana (talk) 22:59, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose I don't think not publishing information is a good response to the original issue: a government doesn't want us publishing certain information. — xaosflux ^Talk 19:25, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Opposse An overly dramatic response to the situation. Isabelle Belato ^🏳‍🌈 19:42, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose I don't think this is the right solution. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 19:43, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Like many others, I share the concern about disclosing personal information. However, making a decision in 24 hours is too rushed for almost any decision of this type. Add to this that the decision involves an extreme measure: a worldwide blackout for 2-3 days. This type of decision should not be taken lightly without proper consideration of its possible consequences. I would be more favorable if there was more time to decide and if the blackout was limited to Wikipedia in India. Additionally, there are concerns about the target of the protest. Should we protest against WMF, against the Delhi High Court, or against people who use legal actions to threaten free speech?
As a side note: Given the very limited time available, it's unlikely that enough editors will respond to this RFC to be anywhere close to being representative of the editors of English Wikipedia, all of whom would be affected. So even if the supports win by numbers in this limited timeframe, I don't think this RFC is enforceable. Phlsph7 (talk) 19:53, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - I don't think any of the edits to that ANI article were defamatory, but that's not really the point. This may not be a popular opinion on Wikipedia, but I think the notion that the WMF should not comply with court orders is ridiculous. Sorry, I believe in the rule of law, I believe in courts, I believe nobody should be above or outside the reach of the law, including myself and other editors. If a court orders a company that runs a website to turn over its IP logs, the company is going to comply, as it should. There is no reason the WMF should be an exception. I think the WMF negotiating a disclosure under seal, to the court and not to the plaintiff, was a reasonable step that the WMF took to protect its users' privacy. I can find no fault with the WMF's actions in this case.
Some editors say: but it's India, it has repressive or undemocratic courts or government, and that's why the WMF shouldn't comply with its court orders. I agree with what the judges said about this: "If you don't like India, don't do business in India." The WMF does business in India: see Wikipedia in India. It fundraises in India [2], it gets money from India [3], it has an affiliate in India [4]... it's going to have to follow the orders of Indian courts. Can't have it both ways.
So if the community wants to have the WMF not comply with Indian court orders, it needs to have the WMF pull out of India and cease operations there. But even if that happened, editors should realize that their IP addresses, registered email addresses, etc., are still likely going to be within the reach of Indian courts, because India is a signatory to the Hague Service Convention (and even if your country isn't, there is the letters rogatory process). The bottom line is: the websites we post stuff on are going to turn over our IP addresses etc. in response to court orders, and there is nothing we can really do about that, nor should we try to evade it, because we should be responsible for what we publish online, even if it's on Wikipedia. It's not just the WMF: your email provider, your ISP, they will comply with court orders, too.
If we don't want the WMF to submit itself to the jurisdiction of certain countries, then we need to tell the WMF to cease operations (especially fundraising!) in those countries, and we need to accept that Wikipedia may be blocked in those countries. But if we want to be a global encyclopedia, then we have to be global citizens, and that means submitting ourselves to global jurisdictions. But let's not be unreasonable by demanding that the WMF refuse to comply with court orders in countries where it does business. Levivich (talk) 20:02, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Correct. The argument that "WMF doesn't have offices in India so it's not under India's jurisdiction" shows that editors here really don't understand how personal jurisdiction works. voorts (talk/contributions) 20:30, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Levivich, I am sorry, but you are massively and fundamentally confused about the principles of law you are referencing. The Hague Services Convention merely provides a route for service of documentation and requests (summons, interrogatories and such)--it's in the name; it does not in any way put evidence anymore "within the reach" of the courts of a signatory nation than they would otherwise be under the normal rules of comity of the court from which aid in collecting the evidence is being sought. In short, if you want to send a request, the Hague Services Convention will compel a court to assist you in delivering that request with proper service, but it will not compel that court to render aid in collecting that evidence.
And US courts will only entertain letters rogatory from courts in other nations under extremely demanding and complicated comity analysis. For example, there is a vast array of reasons why an ANI interrogatory or order from an Indian court seeking to compel the turn-over of evidence in the present situation would be almost certain to be denied by the US court asked to compel delivery of that information. Subject matter jurisdiction, personal jurisdiction, and incompatibility with first and fourth amendment protections, primarily, but plenty of other hurdles.
US courts are not in the habit of giving lower levels of protection to the personal privacy rights of US citizens with respect to foreign parties and courts than they would receive with regard to domestic parties and courts demanding that same information. Quite the very opposite: the US is not a signatory to many of the broad conventions on comity in this areas precisely because its protections are so robust, and also because many other countries are loath to enter into such compacts with the US because of certain idiosyncrasies of the US court system, such as its unusually high judgment amounts and large array of causes of action. Not only are the chances of an Indian party just being able to demand your information through a letter rogatory or an Indian court order unlikely to be successful, but in the extremely rare case that they might have a chance, even trying would typically involve immense litigation cost and protracted court battles. It would be a much more onerous affair than suing for libel under relatively friendly domestic courts in India, changing the SLAPP calculus immensely. SnowRise ^{let's rap} 20:45, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
OK, while it's true that the Hague Services Convention is about service of process and not about obtaining evidence, India and the US are also signatories to the Hague Evidence Convention, which is about obtaining evidence. It is not unusual for US companies to honor requests for customer data from India. As examples, here is Verizon's 2023 transparency report, and here is Google's 2023 transparency report. Note that Google reports it disclosed data in response to >70% of requests (Verizon doesn't report this statistic). This is why I think it's ridiculous to expect the WMF to do anything differently than what other companies like Google and Verizon do (which is, to be specific: comply with the law). Levivich (talk) 23:50, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

So if the community wants to have the WMF not comply with Indian court orders, it needs to have the WMF pull out of India and cease operations there. – Yes, that's the whole point. This option is preferable to letting corporations control coverage of themselves by threatening editors. There's an ethical obligation to stand against SLAPP suits targeted at people who are only guilty of reverting the unexplained removal of cited content. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 21:33, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't notice an open letter to the WMF demanding that they stop doing business in India. If we had one, maybe I'd sign it. What we have so far is an open letter demanding the WMF not comply with this court order, and this proposal for a blackout in response to the WMF complying with this court order. Levivich (talk) 22:45, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
But that's putting the cart before the horse. We don't actually want the foundation to be forced into not providing the encyclopedia in India. Realistically, that might be an unavoidable consequence of what we do want: the encyclopedia being blocked is one of a number of possible consequences of the WMF not providing the PII--if we somehow convince them that refusal of the order to disclose the PII is the only viable path forward here. But we don't in principal want them to 'stop doing business in India' unless that is strictly necessary to the goal of not handing over the user info. SnowRise ^{let's rap} 23:09, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's strictly necessary, if you believe the WMF should follow the laws of the countries it does business in. Levivich (talk) 23:15, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Weak oppose per Llammakey. Protesting a court case that threatens the freedom of information by shutting down the largest free information repository in the world seems counter-intuitive, and if anything, something ANI's lawyers would love. The Kip ^(contribs) 20:10, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose a blackout. We have already made our position emphatically clear with the now-800-something-signature petition. This isn't going to do much to strengthen that, and regardless of whether it does or not I don't think anyone at the WMF is in doubt that we care, and intensely so. Blackouts make sense (to the extent that they ever do) when they're used to exert pressure on something where pressure might be able to change course, e.g. political things, like SOPA. We are not going to strong-arm the justice system of the most populous country in the world into doing what we want by blacking out a website they seem to be willing to ban anyway. Are we trying to get the WMF to do something? Because as much as people talk about the WMF giving over editor data doing damage to the entire editing community, the defence the WMF puts up against that is also defending the entire editing community—defending us—and publicly taking a stand against them just sows chaos and is completely counterproductive to achieving what we all want. We should not jump to treat the WMF as an opponent just because they haven't done exactly what we want. The rationale behind blacking out the site is principled, but it not going to help us, the WMF, or the court case, not to mention the irony of taking down all of our content in response to a lawsuit about a tiny piece of it. Giraffer (talk) 20:11, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - I just don't think this is practical. We're almost certainly going to need WMF to cooperate with any attempts to blackout the site, and whether the WMF is passively or actively involved in such a blackout, it would likely negatively affect the WMF's ability to handle the legal case regardless of what it decides. This isn't practical and is likely to cause more harm than it does good. Hog Farm _Talk 20:20, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose The WMF has a lot of money. People with a lot of money have good lawyers. The WMF is doing what their lawyers want them to do, which is exactly what they should be doing. I understand that people want to do something, but an open letter to tell someone something they already know, and are actively working on, doesn't make much sense to me. And why black out Wikipedia? There are far far more effective strategies to ensure this backfires on ANI. Polygnotus (talk) 20:24, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with all of the concerns about the ANI case articulated among the supporters, and would support this if I felt confident it would be constructive.
We're operating on the basis of woefully incomplete information, with no relevant legal expertise, interfering with an active case where we don't know what legal strategies are in play or how our actions might affect them. I see an attempt to force the Wikimedia Foundation's hand, but no demonstrated understanding of how this will be perceived by anyone other than the Foundation. We know well that the world does not understand the difference between the Wikimedia Foundation, Wikipedia, and volunteers, so how will this act be different? In the SOPA/PIPA blackout, it didn't really matter if the line between the foundation and editors was blurry; here it does. What reason is there to believe this won't be seen as an act of judicial interference? Even if not interference, why are we so confident this won't influence judicial attitudes in counterproductive ways? One judge expressed a "meh" attitude at our open letter, but a blackout could well be a different animal. What advice do we have for the Foundation's lawyers when they have to answer for it in court? In what way does it derail their plans? What advice do we have in future cases, anywhere in the world, when lawyers are asked to account for interference by the anonymous editors the foundation is tasked with defending?
At the end of the day, I hope the WMF understands the existential threat posed by politically motivated litigation (SLAPPs, unmasking suits, judicial harassment, etc.), and understands the degree of harm cowing to strategic litigation would have on our ability to pursue our mission. These are threats that need significant investment -- not just shoring up legal strategies for cases abroad, but devoting some real brain power to contingency planning should the legal reality on the ground change in the US.
I'm just not convinced that our interests or the interests of the defendants are served by trying to force the WMF's hand and undercutting the judgment of their lawyers. Over the years, amid all the things the WMF has done to get pushback from the community, I don't think selling out our editors in court is among them. If that faith turns out to be misplaced, count me in for a protest action. Until then, I want to let the people who have all the information, experience, and expertise do their job rather than make it harder. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 20:28, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose protesting the Wikimedia Foundation. I think it's absolutely ludicrous to compare SOPA/PIPA to the actions of a single trial court judge, not to mention a blackout twice as long as the SOPA/PIPA one. The SOPA/PIPA blackout was a call to action to every American reader to write to Congress to oppose these laws. What's the call to action here? An insular complaint with a foundation 99% of readers have never heard of? Maybe if coming after editors became the official policy of a government we could consider a blackout, but this is simply a misguided lower court judge issuing an order that the Foundation's lawyers have been able to negotiate to a fairly limited harm, and which they intend to appeal. At the prior centralized discussion, I was most convinced by Valereee's opinion that like in Turkey, if they appeal it high enough, WMF will win, and that will be not only a win for Wikipedia but for free speech in India in general. I trust that the Foundation's goals are to protect free speech and that the attorneys familiar with the Indian court system have found a strategy optimal to protect the community and Wikipedia. If this strategy fails and brings these editors to harm with no benefit to free speech then we should discuss opposing the Foundation, but right now we have far too limited information. Even still, I agree with Levivich above who makes the point that opposing court orders is frankly silly: editors and the Foundation are people who still exist in their societies and are bound by the rule of law. Establishing the Wikimedia Foundation as a group that doesn't play ball with court systems is shooting ourselves in the foot. Dan Leonard (talk • contribs) 20:48, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Makes no sense. Make Wikipeda and the whole world suffer to try to pressure one judge who doesn't care about that? North8000 (talk) 21:09, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Jclemens (talk) 21:10, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose overall blackout of entire website. Maybe splash page only. —RCraig09 (talk) 21:12, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose for now: Seems a bit premature. Maybe a banner instead? ARandomName123 (talk)^{Ping me!} 21:19, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 21:26, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose I can't see how this will actually achieve anything. If it did happen, the people hurt by this would be the regular user, not the Delhi high court, or those in the position to offer the personal information to them. I think it would likely do something catastrophic to the reputation of the site. There has to be a better way to explain our displeasure of this situation. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 21:45, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per several above, particularly Hog Farm, Asilvering, and Voorts. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 21:50, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per most above Smarkflea (talk) 21:56, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose — Fourthords | =Λ= | 22:03, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. The case is on hold until December 16 anyway , and despite what other editors have told you, there's at least several days until the data has to be submitted to the court (7 days after the summons are successfully emailed to the Wikipedians - and we're assuming that those emails won't "bounce"...). But frankly: I’m feeling really icky about the community’s approach to this entire thing - I think we should take a step back with fresh eyes. Toxicity, casting aspersions (I've seen suggestions that WMF is throwing Wikipedians under the bus, for financial motives; I've even seen insults thrown around, e.g. "craven"). Is that all OK now? And in this oxygen-free, high-toxicity environment, we've relentlessly wound ourselves up, over the course of a month, reaching this point even after we learned that (1) ANI is cherrypicking our own discussions to try and win the case, (2) sometimes, WMF has to disclose editor data, but it’s thankfully rare, and we know they’re prepared to fully play the legal system if they can, to avoid exposing editors to risk; (3) WMF has successfully appealed the order they were facing (the one saying they had to hand over all data to ANI directly with no restrictions), (4) what’s happening instead, to protect the Wikipedians’ privacy, is something that was publicly known to be on the cards for more than a month now. And I accept that as a result, ANI can submit a petition to the court, to ask for some data. But (i) it's just "basic subscriber data", not IP addresses - probably just an email address? And (ii) WMF’s strategy here has pulled the rug from under ANI’s feet – right now, what would ANI's reason be, to ask for the data? ANI said it needed data to serve legal papers on users, and WMF found a pretty creative way to avoid that (by WMF handling the postman job itself). (5) the Wikipedians in question have known about this case for months (or would have done if they'd paid attention their emails); (6) WMF has reportedly offered to foot their legal bills and find lawyers for them, (7) WMF hasn’t come up with its legal strategy in a vacuum - it’s been consulting local human rights and free speech organizations and the Board of Trustees, (8) WMF has been told that under current Indian legal doctrine, it can’t itself defend the defamation claim (i.e. argue the Wikipedia content is true and the editors haven’t done anything bad), because doing so would deprive it of intermediary liability protection in India. What this potentially means is that either at least one Wikipedian has their day in court to defend their editing, or it's game over, ANI wins by default (without being challenged!). Loss of intermediary status, btw, could be NUCLEAR – that’s not just game over in this pissy little libel suit, it’s potentially game over for the community-autonomy-protecting Wikimedia model (for all the Wikimedia projects, in any language), in the world's most populous country, and in any other country that follows suit. Why? Because if WMF is easily made liable for things we do, then WMF has to vet and veto what we do - i.e. govern the projects - just like a newpaper publisher or TV network. Which it obviously can't do, and we don't want, either. End result - it decides India is too risky, and geoblocks India. Indian Powers That Be get to say WMF deserted 1.4 billion Indians of its own accord, rather than a judge having to explcitly order a website ban. Catastrophe, right? So, take a breath: What do people really think a blackout, this week, over this particular thing, would really achieve? It distracts WMF even more than we already have (and how convenient: even though the case is on hold until December 16th, the RfC backers are pushing for the RfC to close this weekend, outside of - I assume - WMF work hours. Have we somehow forgotten that these are human beings whose day job – paid less than their peers at other Internet sites, I don’t doubt - is to do the best they can for a legally-enshrined mission, “to empower and engage people around the world to collect and develop educational content under a free license or in the public domain, and to disseminate it effectively and globally”? Let’s be honest: with both WMF and individual Wikipedians being co-defendants against ANI here, who among us has spent more than 30 seconds thinking/discussing the obviously more constructive question: “is there a way we can help win the case”? Has anyone even coherently explained to you what the threat model is here, for the three Wikipedians whose exceptionally limited nonpublic "basic subscriber information (probably just an email address) will be held by a court? I mean, come ON – Google got asked for data 45000 times in India in just 6 months in 2023, and released data 70% of the time - and imagine just how much data that actually would be)? Who among us has wondered whether we can de-risk things for the Wikipedians and maybe help achieve WMF’s preferred outcome here (beating ANI!), by having an “I am Spartacus” moment? Couldn't a willing Wikipedian just say they’re one of the named accounts, then appoint a lawyer to represent them in Delhi, and then go on to fight this case from the comfort of their own kitchen table? Who could say they're not that editor (and why would that matter)? And then this case could be fought the way it damn well should (since editors, unlike WMF, won't have their hands tied behind their back - they can mount a direct defence). The world should hear it: ANI has reportedly engaged in highly unethical media practices, now wants to use the legal system to hide that. I would damn well hope someone among us is brave enough to have their day in court so that the rest of the world can hear that. And if – if – the Delhi Court itself does something bad here – e.g. needlessly releases the confidential email addresses, or reaches a ridiculous ruling on the merits, then at that point the whole world will be there to witness its misconduct. Whereas if we blackout now, what happens? The public story is then either “WMF released data to a judge that the judge will hold confidentially; Wikipedians raged (so what?)”, or “WMF caves to Wikipedians’ pressure, stupidly letting ANI win its defamation claim by default - and naturally WMF also gets punished for contempt of court, for – and here’s the really ridiculous part - going back on something it had been suggesting for a month (Oh and by the way, if you’re thinking “no big deal”, maybe get some legal advice, or realise your own ignorance; the consequences of contempt can be so much worse (including for individuals) than just Wikipedia being blocked in India for a while, and WMF would probably in effect lose its other cases too, just for being tarred as a bad faith actors in the system). I’m a 15+ year Wikipedian, but I’m posting from an IP, because I said something unflattering about ANI above, and I honestly don’t care if they want to sue me about it. At least posting as an IP, there’s no need for ANI to ask the Delhi High Court to order WMF to disclose my data. You want to intimidate and punish me for speaking about you, ANI? Come get me. I don’t even need WMF to spend money and time making your life difficult, like they've done for the last month. And I certainly don't think we, the community, ought to be making WMF's position even harder. How's about we stop screaming and trying to grab the helicopter controls, when we don't know how to fly, and can only (barely) see out the side windows. 81.143.194.59 (talk) 22:08, 14 November 2024 (UTC) — 81.143.194.59 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]
Oppose. This would be a combination of cutting off our nose to spite our face, and biting the hand that feeds. If you feel you have to act on this, then black out your own page, announce an editorial strike/walkoff, write an article about it for Signpost, write letters to the WMF executive director and board, or whatever. A major WMF project's userbase collectively deciding to attack WMF in a high-profile manner will have two pretty obvious effects: 1) The public press and most especially that of the neo-fascist far-right and of countries with low press freedom – i.e. the propaganda engines of forces that are inimical to WMF's goals and WP's purpose – would jump all over this as a salacious story of WP running off the rails and WMF heading for demise. 2) WMF itself would be strongly incentivized to reduce the autonomy of projects' editorial communities and impose a more top-down control structure to prevent this kind of "autoimmune attack" or "internal insurrection" from being possible again. It's one thing to raise criticisms but quite another to disrupt the entire project in a glaring public manner just to make a point. That this proposal has as much support as it does already sends a clear enough message. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 22:09, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'd advise against writing letters to WMF. There won't be anything in those letters that hasn't been said before and that WMF isn't aware of yet. The letters will only waste the WMF's time and resources. The same resources they currently need to properly deal with the lawsuit. It would be an "autoimmune attack" as you said. The community would turn into a second party that the WMF would need to try to keep in check (or just "keep updated" or "keep from distracting from the main issue"). Nakonana (talk) 23:18, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. I do not have the highest opinion of the foundation and how it supports editors in many ways but on this particular issue I cannot fault their actions and the information and plans they have shared with us. And I'm not at all sure what this proposed blackout is supposed to accomplish as editors who are alarmed and unhappy have already very clearly communicated that to the foundation. I don't know what editors are expected readers to do that editors have not already done. ElKevbo (talk) 22:20, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Alexeyevitch^(talk) 22:21, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose I cannot support such a drastic action with such little discussion time. Many have explained the reasons not to do this far better than I can, but I'll just say that we are not lawyers and this is more likely to make things worse as far as the legal case is concerned than to make a positive difference. The petition with over 800 signatures has clearly expressed the community's opinion on the matter. Shutting down all of Wikipedia because of the actions of one court in one country is simply not justifiable in my opinion. I particularly agree with the opposes of Thryduulf and Giraffer. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 22:24, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Does not help WMF win the court case nor prevent the disclosure of PI. Moved to neutral. Ca ^{talk to me!} 22:49, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. While I can more than get behind the open letter – it absolutely makes sense to state clearly as a community that disclosure isn't an acceptable outcome – it seems we have no idea who or what this blackout would even be targeting. As multiple people have mentioned above and below and everywhere else, we haven't a clue what the WMF's plan is, which makes sense because they can't talk about the case, and even if they could that would almost certainly be unhelpful to the actual goals, those being keeping editors safe, and winning, in that order. I imagine that there are more than a couple people at the WMF who understand the gravity of the situation, so let's all take a breath and AGF for the time being. If that good faith turns out to be unwarranted down the road, that is the time to have this kind of discussion, not now when nobody even has a clue what's going on. As an aside, I imagine that the WMF would be perfectly able to say to all of us "yep, we are going to disclose their identities" if that was actually their plan, given that that's what the court wants them to do. The fact that they have not done so suggests to me that it isn't their plan at all. Tollens (talk) 22:54, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Wikipedia has remarkably high availability and this makes it a system that you can rely on and trust to be there when you need it. This is a significant asset which should not be sacrificed over a single local dispute. If you force people to find alternatives then they will do just that. And if there is demand for alternatives then others will consider supplying them. In an increasingly volatile world in which misinformation and uncertainty is multiplying, we should maintain our reputation as a rock of stability. Andrew🐉(talk) 23:04, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose: Some want to punish the Wikimedia Foundation, some want to punish the judge and others Asian News International. How does a blackout punish any of them? It will draw a lot of attention, but what will that attention accomplish? Who will we ask people to contact? I'm not sure, nor do I think that will accomplish anything. I signed the letter and I don't want the Foundation to turn over the user information under any conditions. If the judge has the power to turn off Wikipedia for India, let them and that will send a clear message. What other power do they really have? Also, we have very limited information about strategy and tactics of this case and I generally trust that those who do (the Foundation) will do the right thing. SchreiberBike | ⌨ 23:10, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per Jimbo's comments today, the fact that the information hasn't been released yet (consequences should not come before actions), the lack of a technical plan (common.js? edit filters? other?), lack of a clear scope for this blackout (viewing? editing? logged out users only? certain namespaces? special pages?), the damage that a blackout targeting the WMF could do to Wikipedia's reputation with the public (people who find Wikipedia trustworthy might be convinced to think that it is now corrupt or ridden with problems), the massive damage this nuclear option would do to enwiki/WMF community relations, and the fact that even if WMF releases the information I'm not sure a blackout is the right tool here. I think Jimbo has finally said "please trust us" enough times and in enough ways and on enough pages that I am convinced. I urge restraint for now. –Novem Linguae (talk) 23:13, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose for now, considering Jimbo's statements, but I still think this should be covered in some way on the Main Page. Travellers & Tinkers (talk) 23:15, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose: In other words, muffle Wikipedia to oppose those who want to muffle Wikipedia. That'll show 'em! Ravenswing 23:19, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose I think this would only serve to antagonise people, and would seriously hamper the progress of editors during these days. I agree that we must do something, but this is not the way. The Morrison Man (talk) 23:25, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose, without prejudice. While at this stage this is too soon, this is one of the appropriate responses if the editors who are part of this have their identities disclosed or other actions taken against them without the foundation working to fully protect them from harm and avoid the chilling effect on editors who work in areas of controversy. 🌿MtBotany (talk) 23:27, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. There are many points made above that I agree with (plus I appreciate Jimbo's comments on the matter). My main concerns would be: too soon, too little information. -- zzuuzz ^(talk) 23:30, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Targeting the wrong institution. Why are we targeting WMF if the problem is ANI (or the Indian Court's integrity)? WMF already knows that the community disagrees with sharing personal information of editors, so why do we keep bombarding WMF with the same information over and over again like a broken record? Do you think that they have already forgotten the community's stance on the issue? I doubt that. If you want to express your disapproval of the lawsuit then make that known to the one who started that lawsuit: ANI. There's no need to write emails to WMF or ask Jimbo for comments and clarifications. Instead, send those emails and requests for comments to ANI. Nobody will stop you from using throw-away-email-accounts and VPN while doing so. If you don't want to contact ANI, then send emails to your local newspaper and ask them to cover the topic in their report, or to send requests for comments to ANI. ANI wants the info to be deleted? Well, let them know how the Streisand effect works.Nakonana (talk) 23:35, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose I do not see this as a good idea at all. This is just going to turn people against Wikipedia. PrimalMustelid (talk) 23:37, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Ivan (talk) 23:38, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose We need to see how the situation develops. Withdrawing from India completely would be a more justifiable position IMO, but to even consider that we would need to see what the court decides. Hemiauchenia (talk) 23:39, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose It's a bit late for me to coherently articulate my thoughts on the matter, but it should be stressed that blackouts seldom achieve anything beyond frustrating uninvolved parties (i.e. most of the reader and editor base in this instance). Borophagus (talk) 23:40, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose – Unproductive knee-jerk reaction. 5225_C (talk • contributions) 23:40, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose No good comes from blackouts. Two or three days of protest accomplishes absolutely nothing while pissing off the silent majority the thousands of editors and million readers and risking long term consequences on activity and optics (this would certainly only raise tensions, and I promise would not convert anybody). This is one of the biggest sites in the world and frankly I do not think the enthusiasm of a few dozen people voting in favour of it should be of sufficient power to shut down the entire thing; it strikes me as incredibly unlikely there would be anything but extremely fringe support for this measure if you looked beyond the amount of attention you can attract to this discussion. LittleLazyLass (Talk | Contributions) 23:41, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Let it play out and see where it goes, to quote someone nobody will know. CoatbridgeChancellor (talk) 23:41, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. I don't see the situation resolving anything. The Indian court will just ignore what's happening on site anyways, and while I agree it would create a dangerous precedent, I think this situation is extremely rushed, that a 24 hours voting time is ludicrous, and that the failure to precise exactly the boundaries of this action before the opening of the votes creates a quite dangerous situation where only a relative handful of editors will be able to express their opinion. Blackouts never lead anywhere, speaking from experience.Larrayal (talk) 23:42, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Blacking out Wikipedia (and other sites doing the same) is literally the reason why we defeated the SOPA/PIPA proposals in 2012, Larrayal, so I strongly disagree with your claim. It is certainly not the experience we here on Wikipedia have had in the past. Silver seren^C 00:07, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The fact it worked a decade ago to gather popular support against a policy in the US does certainly not entail it will work against to gather nothing against a court that wants Wikipedia's head anyway and a decision the Wikimedia Foundation has probably already chosen. As others have already posited better than me, at this point in the trial, it could actually hinder Wikimedia's defence. Larrayal (talk) 00:13, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose I agree with Jimbo's comments. I don't think this will achieve anything. If the WMF eventually releases information, I don't think a blackout will make them reconsider. I am optimistic though. win8x (talking | spying) 23:52, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose an overly drastic response, and it needlessly would hinder progress editors make on pages plus many harmless readers who wish to view what the site has to say on topics. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 23:59, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Strong oppose, this does not in any way accomplish the intended goal and only inconveniences the uninvolved editors trying to write for the Wiki. Shutting the site down over a legal fiasco almost nobody is invested in only raises distain for the site, this doesn't rally anyone towards your intended cause. Gasmasque (talk) 23:59, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose There has been no disclosure yet, and a blackout will hurt readers but not make it more obvious to the WMF that we don't want there to be any disclosure. If there is disclosure, we should consider a blackout but also more serious and permanent measures like forking the project. Steven Walling • talk 00:07, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose the WMF appears to be trying what it can do, short of contempt of court, to prevent the disclose of the editors. As others have mentioned, the WMF is trying to themselves from becoming a legal target and can only decline for so long. If it were more the case that WMF just said "sure, here's the names" without pause, that would be reason to take action. Masem (t) 00:09, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose because this is far too hasty. I initially voted yes, but upon further consideration, I was also far too hasty. I urge fellow editors to vote yes or no and to fully read and comprehend the above arguments before voting. While it is important to show that we will not tolerate freedom of information being blatantly attacked, now is far too early. — Preceding unsigned comment added by GracenC (talk • contribs) 00:11, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - too hasty, merely considering an action is not worthy of protest. Should only protest after an action has been confirmed to happen. //Lollipoplollipoplollipop::talk 00:15, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose This blackout will cause more bad than good in the long run. It will set a dangerous precedent for other bad actors that they could get away with other situations like this. It will also cause more damage to the user base (compared to Reddit's blackout for example), and that it will affect the silent majority of editors who couldn’t care less about the blackout, and the casual readers and users who may not be as well informed on the topic. Wikipedia as a whole would be more affected by a blackout due to the kind of website it is. It would hurt wikipedias image as a whole if the whole sites goes dark due something like this. Also giving such little time to vote is absurd, and would not allow for an accurate look at the general opinions on the site. Fossiladder13 (talk) 00:25, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose for several reasons laid out in more detail by others above. In short, it's too hasty of an action, it's impractical, it would only hurt regular users, and I think it would cause more harm than good to WP. And, per Llammakey and The Kip, why would we blackout a massive source of free information to protest a case that threatens the flow of said information? Sgubaldo (talk) 00:26, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
A threat of a blackout if it actually happens, I could probably get behind. A blackout beforehand, as some kind of "see we're serious" signal, I cannot get behind. In this mad cacophonous rush, I'm concerned that if I support with "only if it actually happens," I'm just going to be considered support number 66. So I'm here. We should not do this beforehand. A 800+ person petition looks like unity; a 50%/50% poorly thought out blackout proposal at the last minute looks like disunity. I wish this hadn't been proposed this way. --Floquenbeam (talk) 00:34, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose as I believe that WMF will not release any information they don't feel totally compelled to release. If their legal counsel tells them they have to release it, what impact on the legal equation can blacking out this site possibly have? --Iritscen (talk) 00:41, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - Iritscen makes a good point, and overall these 'blackouts' smack of punishing ordinary, regular users and editors in favor of "making a point" that is something that, in the end, will have no effect on the outcome of the case one way or another. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 00:46, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per Jimbo, Dan Leonard, and SMcCandlish. RudolfRed (talk) 00:50, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. As has been noted elsewhere, it's unclear whether this is intended to target ANI or WMF, but either option is bad. While the open letter was a good way to reiterate the community's stance, I believe WMF has had the same interests at heart, and I am assuming good faith on their approach to the case. A blackout against them only pushes the WMF and editors further apart. If the blackout is instead intended to target ANI (or the court), they will only see this as proof of Wikipedia's supposed "bias" and move further against the site. They didn't like it when a single article about the case was created; I don't imagine they'd respond well if we decided to mention the case on every article. RunningTiger123 (talk) 00:51, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - The millions of readers and thousands of editors shouldn't be affected by a lawsuit. To quote our unofficial motto, "Imagine a world in which every single person on the planet is given free access to the sum of all human knowledge. That's what we're doing." '''[[User:CanonNi]]''' (talk • contribs) 01:01, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose I don't believe it will help in convincing the judge to change their mind. They've already considered Asian News International vs. Wikimedia Foundation as constituting interference, and they'll probably do the same for a protest blackout. The court will probably block Wikipedia anyways regardless of whether the blackout happens or not if WMF decides to withhold the information, which at that point the blackout will only hurt users who don't have a say in the court case. Macrophyseter | talk 01:05, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Neutral (blackout)

I'm going neutral on this. Not because I don't think disclosing personal information is something WMF shouldn't do, but because I don't feel I understand well enough what the actual plan is, and I don't know what the unintended effects of this could be. For the record, I absolutely oppose disclosing personal information in any way that would make an editor publicly identifiable. Also FTR, I have zero question that those proposing/supporting this are well-intentioned. Valereee (talk) 17:50, 14 November 2024 (UTC) Moving to oppose, at least until we have a definite timeframe and namespaces. Valereee (talk) 18:06, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I can't bring myself to oppose, as that would imply there isn't a need for drastic action (not to mention that more than half of the opposes have not-so-great arguments and I don't want to imply that I'm endorsing them). But I also can't support a sitewide condemnation of the WMF. It's still possible they've been on our side the whole time, in which case they literally cannot tell us so. In regard to the WMF, the best action is to make them know that we resoundingly oppose any disclosure, and we've done that. Directing the blackout at ANI and/or the Indian court would be much more effective. It would make it clear who's responsible for creating this situation, and it would create a strong disincentive for other organizations that would otherwise try to cause trouble. And to address the inevitable "but that might make them angry" and "it will give them what they want" arguments: I really don't give a damn. Protecting Wikipedia's independence and safety is more important than protecting its operations in India. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 19:08, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Don't care. The fact that WMF complied with this lawsuit and provided the requested information means editors who valued their anonymity on here (with certain exceptions, such as the need to use Checkuser for Wikipedia to protect itself) no longer have any guarantee that will happen. With how the Internet has been evolving over the past couple of decades or so, especially with social media exploding in popularity, being allowed some form of privacy and having a way to contribute to something I perceived to benefit all was what attracted me to start editing Wikipedia in the first place. There is now evidence that privilege of privacy could be taken away for anything WMF may be sued for. I'm not willing to find out what I consider to be a productive edit an entity suing WMF will consider slander, and then goodbye account privacy. I'm out. Steel1943 (talk) 19:55, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Is that correct? I thought they had not yet. Innisfree987 (talk) 19:59, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Innisfree987:: [5] Steel1943 (talk) 20:28, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks so much @Steel1943. This is why I asked for a more detailed summary. Why does the proposal say WMF is considering this if they’ve already done it? Innisfree987 (talk) 20:55, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
They have not yet done it, to my knowledge, but counsel for WMF declared to the court their intent to do so. —Compassionate727 ^(T·C) 21:14, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Meh... the fact that WMF has agreed to comply at all is enough for me. Steel1943 (talk) 23:40, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I’m pretty sympathetic to this idea but would appreciate a more detailed summary of the backstory (asking folks to sift through voluminous threads for context is not gonna cut it here), and I also think 48 hours is way too long. Suggest starting with one hour. It’ll make clear enough the message that we can do it, still get the press we hope for, and leave open the door for escalating to a longer strike. Innisfree987 (talk) 19:58, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
While I'm not against the blackout (as I believe sharing personal information of Wikipedia users is unacceptable and the blackout would give me more time to do something else), I can't support it per Hog Farm. The proposal is pointless if it depends on WMF to actually execute it (or not shut it down; they are controlling the servers, remember?). Hey WMF, we want to protest against you, would you please help us? AstonishingTunesAdmirer 連絡 20:37, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know, firstly, most of the technical approaches suggested don't require WMF to execute them (they could easily block them, for sure), but I think it's pretty unlikely they'd block a protest against themselves, and possible that they'd even help the community implement one if needed. Now, doing so would muddy the liens between the WMF and the community, which would probably be a bad legal idea. — penultimate_supper 🚀 ^{(talk • contribs)} 20:57, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Part of the issue is that while we know that the WMF and the wikipedia editor community are not the same, and actions by one do not equate to actions by the other, I have doubts that the relevant court system here is going to see it that clearly. There's a good chance that such asnaction by the community is going to be seen as an action by and through the WMF by a court that doesn't distinguish between the two. We should be careful not to undermine whatever legal recourse the WMF does have here, although I do strongly oppose the WMF's consideration to release personal information regarding editors. Hog Farm _Talk 21:17, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I was about to say, even if we ignore that issue, WMF will not. ANI read everything we post here, they even mentioned some of our discussions in the court. Knowing this, there's a 0% chance WMF will support the blackout as it will have a negative effect on their defense strategy (hopefully there's one). And most likely them doing nothing would be seen as supporting too, so IMO they will oppose the blackout. AstonishingTunesAdmirer 連絡 21:29, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I hate being a fence sitter but while I am sympathetic to the idea of a blackout, there are too many unknown variables out their that I don't have to make a solid choice. Was initially supporting but eh. As long as the organisation doesn't hand over editor information, a blackout would be effective but also somewhat selfish on our part. If the personal information is handed over, the site should definitely be locked down for a lot longer than 2 days, longer again if WMF doesn't notify the community. Fantastic Mr. Fox (talk) 21:46, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Note: Upon reading Jimbo's Wales talk page comment here [6], changing to Neutral unless this situation escalates. Fantastic Mr. Fox (talk) 22:53, 14 November 2024 (UTC) [reply]

Unsure/Concerned. I'm currently near a weak support, but don't take it as me actually supporting something. My concern isn't with the plan, but the audience who attends the execution, mainly the Americans in the country this website and the WMF are founded upon. We could not have a more negative reputation from Americans now compared to our last blackout, something far, far more negative, and I fear that if we proceed with blacking out, the reception would lead to an even less supportive American audience who would give even less of a damn for us. We have so many attackers (read: highly motivated right-wingers/reactionaries) calling us biased, and maybe the blackout would risk us becoming even more vulnerable to American opposers. If, and help us dearly if this happens, the users are disclosed at the Delhi High Court after the blackout, we would get even more threatening legal action from American parties who are willing to side with a similar, nationalist evil to take us down. I need to be assured that our rep in this country would turn out fine if I want to proceed with support. CHANGED TO SUPPORT, WILL LEAVE A NEW COMMENT. REMOVE THIS IF YOU HAVE TO. Carlinal (talk) 21:53, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
(Almost a "weak" oppose, but realizing that my rationale wouldn't be an effective opposition.) The blackout protest would require lots of the (enwiki) project's resources and huger admin (or interactive admin or template?) management, especially if we can't use MediaWiki's software. Also, it requires responsibility for admins and, not to mention, creating tasks at the Phabricator if WMF would allow project-endorsed blackouts. After the blackout schedule passes, how else would the 'blackout' style be managed afterwards? Maybe save the coding for future use? George Ho (talk) 22:07, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Neutral I support this in principle, but my knowledge of this is limited, I don't have the time to sort through everything, and I'm not convinced we're quite at the point where action needs to be taken. SportingFlyer T·C 00:51, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Neutral I believe we are being too hasty. I believe WMF is trying to do its best to a) win the case and b) prevent complying with the subpoena. However, there is a need to communicate to WMF, if they are genuinely considering it, that disclosures in an democratically backsliding government is completely unacceptable. However, if WMF actually follows through its promise of PI disclosure, the chilling effect will be unimaginable. In that case, I would support a blackout. Ca ^{talk to me!} 01:04, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

General discussion (blackout)

(notified Jimbo, again) 2601AC47 (talk|contribs) Isn't a IP anon 17:35, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

For how long? Valereee (talk) 17:42, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think the agreement in the pre-RFC discussion was 2-3 days, to make it last until the disclosure deadline. QuicoleJR (talk) 17:43, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think that was suggested there, but it needs to be specified here if that's what is on the table. Valereee (talk) 17:45, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If I can pick a specific timeframe, I would say 48 hours. If it's possible to edit to add it after the RfC has started, I'm okay with doing it. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 18:25, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I would do it quick and specify namespaces, Snow Rise has said it would only be article and article talk. Valereee (talk) 18:28, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Done. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 18:33, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Where was/were the pre-RFC discussion(s)? I think this proposal might also should include some details defining exactly what a "blackout all of the site " would consist of. Identical to the Wikipedia:SOPA initiative#Summary and conclusion blackout (see also Protests against SOPA and PIPA#Wikimedia community) or something else? Skynxnex (talk) 17:49, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The pre-RFC discussion can be found here. Also, the intent was to do it in the same way as in 2012, with different wording on the blackout screen. QuicoleJR (talk) 17:54, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion is at Wikipedia_talk:2024_open_letter_to_the_Wikimedia_Foundation#It's_time_to_take_a_community_read_on_the_prospect_of_protest_action. Valereee (talk) 17:54, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, edit conflict. Valereee (talk) 17:55, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Skynexnex that it would be helpful to provide more details on what "blackout" entails. Is access to all content to be blocked, or will it be available by selecting an appropriate link on a blackout screen? isaacl (talk) 17:55, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't wish to take a position on this but instead of a "blackout" that would hide content perhaps an editing strike of some form would be better. Is a "blackout" the only way to accomplish that? 331dot (talk) 18:04, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A strike would be much harder to pull off and be much less visible. QuicoleJR (talk) 18:05, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think it is possible to disable all edits for 24 hours. That might be a better-targeted protest than a full blackout. Walsh90210 (talk) 18:15, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

331dot Organising a strike that is actually visible to outsiders is not easy, particularly sufficiently quickly to have any effect here. Another thing that has been suggested is a mass resignation of advanced permissions. Espresso Addict (talk) 18:16, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for everyone's replies. 331dot (talk) 18:26, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hammersoft and Snow Rise, instead of looking like we're badgering opposers, let's put this stuff in the discussion section instead, maybe? Valereee (talk) 18:10, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Good suggestions; doing so here. --Hammersoft (talk) 18:16, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Walsh90210: To answer; All. All. I'm not a lawyer, but it seems to me since we're not part of the case we can't be in contempt of that court. Further, they have no jurisdiction outside of their borders. As to office action to veto? Maybe. To the overall concept; given the rapidly impending release, we don't have weeks to hash out details of this and consider all possible ramifications. I agree there are risks. There are considerably bigger risks in failing to act. --Hammersoft (talk)

Hammersoft, my worry is that ANI will argue that wikipedia and WMF are the same, for the purposes of holding us/them/whoever in contempt of court. We know there is a difference. They have much to gain by pretending there isn't one. -- asilvering (talk) 18:26, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That is a very real concern, and we already can see instances in the record where ANI has done just that, and found a receptive audience in the court. We should not be under any allusions here: the WMF refusing to disclose the identities of these editors will not only be almost certain to result in a ruling of contempt, it will probably ultimately force the WMF to default the case eventually, if it continues to refuse the court's order. I still think it is by far the lesser of evils here. SnowRise ^{let's rap} 20:05, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sympathetic to the sentiment here and signed the earlier petition, but I share concerns that this is poorly thought out vis-a-vis the larger context of responding to ANI's challenge. I'm also a bit concerned that (based on my subjective recollections of editors' activity and what they state on their user pages) relatively few of our editors who live in and/or write about India extensively have participated here yet. _signed,Rosguill ^talk 18:23, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Consider that this could be because editors from India are extremely worried because the WMF is about to not only allow, but directly take part in, allowing three editors to be personally summoned to court with a defamation lawsuit against them personally. The definition of SLAPP. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 18:45, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This is likely a major factor (I don't know if I would comment if I lived in India), but it's also late at night in India right now. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 18:47, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe they don't wanna get sued. ~WikiOriginal-9~ (talk) 23:53, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Snow Rise you say The localities to be covered are anywhere that receives en.wikipedia. The namespaces to be covered will probably end up being all forward facing content (article and article talk space), but not project space but that is NOT in the proposal. None of that is in the proposal. Not the time, not the namespaces, not the localities. Valereee (talk) 18:24, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's correct, and to be clear, if I wasn't enough in that post: these are details that are open to ongoing consensus, and which may or may not require parallel discussions, but the perspectives that have been advanced so far (and which I agree seem to make the most sense) are that article and article talk spaces should be the blacked-out namespaces. And the blackout applies to en.Wikipedia in its entirety as I understand the proposal: ergo anywhere that this site would normally be viewable at will be impacted. SnowRise ^{let's rap} 19:03, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

But then we need another RfC. Like literally people were signing this before we specified what we were proposing. Valereee (talk) 19:40, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't disagree, but it is what it is. Only recommendation I can make is that we start those side discussions simultaneous to the main proposal so we don't introduce further delay. SnowRise ^{let's rap} 19:56, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A kneejerk "I don't know so I oppose" is immensely unhelpful and shortsighted, but there are several things that would need to be worked out:

What is the blackout a response to? Telling the WMF not to disclose? I feel that would be unhelpful since we don't know what their plan is and for all intents and purposes they cannot tell us yet. They could be fully on our side, or on the brink of giving in; we don't know. So are we protesting ANI for the existential threat it's putting on Wikipedia, the Delhi High Court for entertaining it, or both?
How long will it last? Until the case ends and/or the WMF walks away? What if the WMF does disclose—will we protest for a few days and then go back to business as usual?
This will immediately become one of the top news stories in the English-speaking world (and possibly other places if other language editions join in). The crux of the issue needs to be communicated to the public very effectively in very few words.
What will be blacked out? I personally agree with LakesideMiners that it should be all of mainspace and talkspace while back-end discussion spaces are left open so we can continue addressing this.
And the elephant in the room: the WMF has veto power over much of this. Unless we're hoping they take "doesn't dictate what's on Wikipedia" to its logical extreme, they'll need to be at the table here.

Thebiguglyalien (talk) 18:31, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I just added a clarification to most of these points. The 48 hour timeframe is to match the court order's four-day limit while having a round number – assuming this RfC runs for at least 24 hours, it will last until the last day of the court order. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 18:34, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Chaotic Enby, maybe an explanation of what "under a sealed cover" means? Sorry again for the nitpicking, but this is stuff people opining in an RfC need to know. And I'm not sure I completely understand it, myself. Even though, yes, I've kept up. Valereee (talk) 18:39, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The sealed cover is pretty unimportant. The important thing is whether the WMF will allow editors who were complying with WP policies and using reliable sources to be served with a *personal* defamation lawsuit against them. Whether others ever learn the editors identities or not, this should not be condoned. If Indian courts don’t want to support free information, the WMF shouldn’t pander to them trying to silence it, even if the site gets blocked in India. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 18:43, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'll try to provide a cogent but brief explanation: to submit a document or exhibit under seal means that is given to the court ex parte, by one party, with no automatic presumption that the information will be shared with all parties, which is otherwise the default for most evidence entered into the record. The court is then entitled to draw factual conclusions and legal rulings based on what it discovers therein, and if the information is conclusory to outstanding legal determination, the court will typically unseal the information and distribute it to the parties.If the court determines the information is immaterial to any legal or factual conclusion, it may instead keep the information sealed in the record. Which sounds great, but in this case, it highly, highly likely (almost certain) to find the information of the identity of the parties to be material information which has to be distributed to all parties. The identity of parties in a civil litigation action is pretty much always considered basic information which all parties are entitled to as a matter of due process and other fundamental legal rights.

So the impact of the seal is negligible in this scenario. Indeed, in the most recent written order, the court already expressly anticipates and authorizes ANI to request this information, and I can think of no credible grounds on which the WMF could object, once it has released the information. SnowRise ^{let's rap} 19:30, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Voorts, this also addresses a question/reservation you raised above. SnowRise ^{let's rap} 19:37, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm a lawyer. I know what it means to file something under seal and I have done so myself. I imagine WMF considered all of what you wrote when they decided to sign a stipulation and that their counsel thought that, on balance, it was the best way forward in this case. voorts (talk/contributions) 20:32, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If you are an attorney you know I am correct that the fact that this information is being delivered under seal is essentially a distinction without consequence. Presuming that the court trusts that the information supplied to it by the foundation is genuine, it is almost certain to hand the PII over to ANI. That is the entire thrust of my point. Any disclosure is effectively 'actual disclosure' in this case. That's deeply important to how the community should be viewing this situation.

Now you and I both know that counsel works to achieve a client's goals, not define or unduly influence the client's priorities. And that's precisely the point. We're talking about two separate issues here. Legal strategy and the collective priorities of the movement. The WMF's fiduciaries and counsel are legally positioned to exercise legal authority on behalf of the website, but they are not, and never have been, the sole custodians or shapers of this movement's values and priorities. It is entirely appropriate, if we think the WMF is endangering the future of the project--or unnecessarily, callously, or foolishly putting our editors legal or other jeopardy--for us to speak up as loud as we need to in order to exert our influence to try to put a stop to it. The community is the engine of this project, the WMF (in this case anyway) the shield and spear. But neither group alone has, or was ever intended to, have a complete monopoly on making monumental decisions that could reshape the movement for years to come, where the potential risks are severely undermining basic project functionality and viability, and putting our volunteers in danger. SnowRise ^{let's rap} 21:26, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Are you saying you're an expert in Indian law? Valereee (talk) 20:10, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Something like this will be basically the same in all common law countries (of which India is one). —Compassionate727 ^(T·C) 21:29, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As I mentioned above, beyond just the namespaces involved, I think it will be helpful to state if the blackout intends to block all access, or allow click-through access. (I suspect the latter will gain more support.) isaacl (talk) 18:44, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Thebiguglyalien, if you're referring to me saying I don't know enough as "I don't know so I oppose", I'll just call attention to the distinction. Valereee (talk) 18:36, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If the WMF would veto this, we and they are in much bigger trouble than we are already. Such a veto would not end well, just like the previous times they tried to flex their muscles here. Fram (talk) 18:40, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This. LakesideMiners^{Come Talk To Me!} 18:49, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Rather than blacking out all of Wikipedia, I think replacing just the Main Page with neutral and factual description of the issue is warranted, for a couple of days. Travellers & Tinkers (talk) 18:39, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This seems more appropriate. ~Darth Stabro^{Talk • Contribs} 18:43, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That was cut originally going to be part of the RfC but was cut due to rough consensus. Simpler is better. Sincerely, Dilettante 18:44, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Personally I'd much more readily support the main page action, as it makes qualms I have moot. _signed,Rosguill ^talk 18:53, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think it's reasonable for you to oppose this proposal then, and make the 'main page only' proposal in a different thread or subthread. If the original proposal fails, the more limited option could then be implemented if it did receive consensus support. Personally I don't have much confidence that blacking out just the main page would accomplish much of anything. SnowRise ^{let's rap} 19:09, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Quick question: will it still be possible to edit the site during the blackout? My concern is that vandalism occurring just before it begins will in some sense get locked in and go infixed. BD2412 T 18:56, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If no one can see it, does it matter? Valereee (talk) 18:59, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If a tree falls in a forest ... Sincerely, Dilettante 19:02, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I almost wrote that. Valereee (talk) 19:04, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think it absolutely matters. Imagine if the police pressed pause on responding to (your country's emergency number here) calls for even just an hour. There would be a very large backlog. Yes, they would eventually get through said backlog, but it would take them some time. Now apply the same logic to vandalism on Wikipedia. owuh (talk | she/her) 19:13, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If the vandals can't keep vandalizing, we come out of the blackout with the same exact amount of vandalism that needs to be dealt with, and no one has seen it because it's been blacked out. How do we end up with a larger backlog? Valereee (talk) 19:29, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, it was more clear in my head. Say the site goes read-only and the last 5 changes were vandalism. People are going to try (and fail) to revert the vandalism, and then may forget about it by the time the site is no longer read-only, thus it has slipped under our radar. As a solution to this problem, we could consider only allowing extended confirmed users to make edits. owuh (talk | she/her) 19:44, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
When the blackout ends, recent changes will still include edits from before the blackout for the next minute or so (provide one uses the right settings). We should be able to catch everything. Sincerely, Dilettante 19:51, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This is not technically possible without WMF intervention (see also the IANB thread, or the below "Technical implementation?" section). Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 19:52, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That is true, I forgot about that as in my mind the feed always changes. owuh (talk | she/her) 20:07, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I am still not assuaged as to an answer. Suppose there is a blackout. If I have this link open before the blackout begins, and I make a change there and click save after the blackout has begun, does that change get saved, or would I (or anyone else doing the same thing) get some kind of error message? BD2412 T 20:43, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The answer to your question is "yes, it would get saved", as would any other edit that gets submitted during the blackout. Again, it is not technically possible for the community to actually disable editing without developer intervention. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 20:49, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
theleekycauldron, if the WMF complies with what? A sealed cover, or publicly available disclosure? Valereee (talk) 19:59, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Valereee: They say: "All of them. The main risk is that editors get doxxed and sued, whether or not it's 'only' privately doesn't remove the chilling effect". theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 20:08, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Got it, thanks! And my empathy to any editor who has to worry about that. Valereee (talk) 20:13, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I find it very hard to believe personally that ANI will not at least learn the editors' identities once they're served with a suit, much less that the editors' identities will not become public eventually, especially if the suit proceeds. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 20:16, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm going to expand on my reason for supporting here for people to consider. While I agree with the ideal of being a free information source for all, unfortunately some countries around the world have political situations (whether through democracy/the actual will of the people, or through force) that do not enable such a goal to be achieved. I second the concerns that this may be a one off rogue court that will have its ruling overturned on a successful appeal - but to me that does not matter, because in the WMF's lawyers' view to even proceed to appeal they have to put three individuals in their own personal defense of a defamation suit against them, personally. Whether the WMF holds to its current stance of paying those editors' legal fees or not is immaterial - the monetary cost of defending oneself against a lawsuit is not the only cost that has to be considered. And it is extremely likely that even if the information is given under sealed order, that their identities as defamation defendants will become public - potentially impacting their personal and professional lives as well. It shouldn't matter whether it's one editor or three editors or a thousand editors or everyone from a country - the WMF exists to protect everyone - which does not mean sacrificing three editors for some greater good.
If this results in a financial penalty? Doesn't matter - WMF can pull out of India and it is virtually impossible that such a ruling will be enforced in US courts. If it results in Wikipedia being blocked in India? That's something for the local population and politicians to decide to rectify by reversing this court's decisions and publicly denouncing them. But putting three editors at personal risk for the "greater good" without their consent is absolutely abhorrent and should not be condoned. The WMF seems to think they are operating in the community's best interest by trying to "keep their options open". But it's time they cut their losses, pull out of India if necessary, and stop entertaining this kangaroo court's permission for a company to SLAPP editors of this site - and under no circumstance other than the editor's explicit consent to release their information to the courts in India should they allow such to be done.
This is not a case where there's a valid legal claim that should be entertained. If this were an Indian court asking for the information of an editor who had posted a threat of assassination against someone, then there would not be community backlash whatsoever for the WMF choosing to comply. What this actually is, however, is the WMF acquiescing to SLAPP - which should scare every single editor here and goes against all of what Wikipedia stands for. The lawsuit ANI has filed against the WMF and the editors is baseless from what we know - the edits in question were cited to reliable sources (in line with our policies) and would've been rectified through normal policies if those sources changed their reporting. There is no defamation case in the US from this - and the WMF should not entertain Indian courts allowing local companies to claim there is in any way - especially when it puts three editors at great personal risk (even if that risk is not financial) with no guarantee of success. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 20:09, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Tryptofish, I don't think it's fair to characterize opposers as being unconcerned because it isn't them at risk, or that that's why they're opposing. Valereee (talk) 22:04, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Valereee, I want to make it very clear that this is something where I feel strongly. I never said that opposers are opposing only because it isn't them at risk. But I am saying that if you oppose, you are failing to realize that you, yourself, are at risk. This is an existential threat to the Wikimedia movement, and I am not engaging in hyperbole. And it's part of an existential threat to democracy and human rights that is happening in the real world. We are in a catastrophic place, and it does no good to pretend otherwise. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:13, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I am not failing to realize that I too am at risk. Valereee (talk) 22:15, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Censure the WMF for storing personal information without good reason. Insist that the WMF should immediately delete all personal information that it does not have good reason to store, and find ways to hide that information so that it technically be accessed for purposes other than for what it is required. SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:52, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Information collected is explicitly laid out in the privacy policy. Dan Leonard (talk • contribs) 00:55, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Brainstorming the potential wording

A very rough draft:

Imagine a world without free knowledge
Wikipedia is the encyclopedia anyone can edit. Over more than two decades, millions of people have helped make it into a global repository of knowledge. To protect our editors and maintain the encyclopedia's neutrality, privacy is a fundamental right accorded to all editors. As part of an ongoing court case, the Wikimedia Foundation, the organization responsible for hosting Wikipedia, has received orders to disclose personal information of editors. For 48/72 hours, we, the editors of the English Wikipedia, are blacking out the site in protest of this.

WP:SOPA is the closest precedent I'm aware of. I encourage other editors to write their own short messages and/or wordsmith mine (feel free to directly edit the quote instead of copy-pasting it every time). We can combine them and finalize the wording in 24–48 hours if the RfC is successful or looks like it will be. Sincerely, Dilettante 18:41, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think we should tack on that this is being done independently from the WMF. That it's being done by we the editors, in protest of of the actions of our host. Make it more explicit. LakesideMiners^{Come Talk To Me!} 18:47, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We'll also need to add some kind of "click through" to actually get to Wikipedia, and I think maybe consider something that the person reading it can do. (Contact WMF? I don't know, but something to think about.) I would not support anything which completely blocks access to Wikipedia; even the SOPA/PIPA blackout didn't do that. You could still click through and use the site afterward, and just saying "This sucks" without some kind of call to action is rather useless. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 18:54, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Wait, so this would include being able to get to Wikipedia, even with the blackout? Like, articles and article talk pages even? Valereee (talk) 18:56, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict)The SOPA/PIPA blackout was done that way. I certainly can't see why we'd do this one differently. The banner certainly got "in your face" upon visiting the site, but you could click through it and get to the site. (That said, I've no problem placing the click-through at the bottom.) Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 19:00, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Do we need to specify that? Not sure it's really important enough... Valereee (talk) 19:06, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Did the SOPA blackout allow a click-through? Our own article, Protests against SOPA and PIPA#Wikimedia community, says The blocking action was purposely not complete; users could access Wikipedia content from the mobile interface or mirror sites, or if they disabled JavaScript or other web browser functions. Within hours of the start of the blackout, many websites posted instructions for disabling the banner, by altering URLs, using browser add-ons such as Adblock Plus or Greasemonkey, or interrupting the page from loading completely.

Which, honestly, seems like a pretty poor solution given many disruptive editors are probably pretty willing to do extra work to continue editing content while regular editors who patrol such things are less likely to intentionally work-around, in order to support the cause.

So I am still a bit (if not in the black) in the gray over what supporting this would result and I'm not keen on supporting something like this when much is vague since the details do matter. Skynxnex (talk) 19:20, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's possible I remember wrong; I'd have to dig back through, but I'm pretty sure it did. Then again, it would be pretty trivial for me to GreaseMonkey around it, so maybe I did that and forgot? In any case, I certainly know it wasn't a hard database lock, you can't GreaseMonkey your way around that. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 19:25, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It wouldn't be useless, as the major effect of attracting worldwide media attention would still be attained, but it would be a lost opportunity. isaacl (talk) 19:03, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I considered linking to the Open Letter and encourage signing. Of course, asking people to create an account when we've just talked about the risks of doing so is a bit tone-deaf. Encouraging IP signing when we're talking about supporting privacy is equally poor form. Sincerely, Dilettante 19:09, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

How about

Wikipedia is the encyclopedia anyone can edit. Over more than two decades, millions of people have helped make it into a global repository of knowledge. To protect our editors and maintain the encyclopedia's neutrality, privacy is a fundamental right accorded to all editors. As part of an ongoing court case, the Wikimedia Foundation, the organization responsible for hosting Wikipedia, has received orders to disclose personal information of editors. Though the Wikimedia Foundation provides infrastructure, they are not responsible for content and curation. Despite this, they have blocked access to a page related to the case without the community's agreement. For 48/72 hours, we, the editors of the English Wikipedia, are blacking out the site in protest of ~~this~~ the court's request for personal information and the foundation's decision to interfere with content.

This is more unwieldy and needs even more wordsmithing obviously. Sincerely, Dilettante 18:59, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'd leave out discussion of blocking access to the page. I feel the primary issue is disclosing editor information, and so the messaging should remain focused on this. isaacl (talk) 19:05, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think there's another major issue at play here as well. If this ends up setting the precedent that individuals or entities that dislike the content that wikipedia has reliably sourced about them can just sue and get a court to mandate a takedown or change of the content, then we've already lost no matter what happens with editor privacy. And I really am worried that this case is going to set the precedent for any number of entities that don't like how they are covered. Hog Farm _Talk 19:22, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The messaging needs to be simple, and have an achievable goal. If trying to influence what laws are passed, then a message more like "This is what Wikipedia would look like if repressive governments had their way" would be more apt. But... frankly, a blackout is unlikely to have much effect with most of the governments in question. isaacl (talk) 19:38, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A much sharper take that I don't expect to see aired, but maybe it's a good guide:

Over two decades, millions of people around the world have collaborated to make Wikipedia the world's largest reference work, a global repository of knowledge. That work is only made possible by a fundamental promise: That every volunteer who sacrifices their time and energy for this project will always be protected from retaliation when they speak truth to power. That they will never need to censor themselves for fear of persecution.
That promise is under threat from the Delhi High Court, which, amidst a lawsuit from Asian News International, has ordered the Wikimedia Foundation to reveal the personal information of its volunteers to the law. Disclosing those volunteers' identities would not only jeopardize their privacy and wellbeing, but compromise the ability of the entire project to fulfill its mission of spreading knowledge as widely as possible, for free, for everyone.
In protest of the court's order, the volunteers of English Wikipedia are blacking out the site. We strongly urge the Wikimedia Foundation, the organization that supports and hosts our project, to protect the privacy of its community members from government intrusion and guarantee their right to contribute safely.

theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 19:13, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A protest of the order, not whatever WMF legal strategy is. I like that. Valereee (talk) 19:21, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This is definitely better put. A slightly toned-down wording along those lines would be

Over two decades, millions of people around the world have collaborated to make Wikipedia the world's largest reference work, a global repository of knowledge. That work is only made possible by a fundamental promise: that every volunteer who sacrifices their time and energy for this project will be protected from retaliation for contributions that improve the encyclopedia.

The next two paragraphs should remain the same IMO. Sincerely, Dilettante 19:23, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't love that, if only because things like petty vandalism and incivility don't improve the encyclopedia, but they still shouldn't be illegal by default. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 20:03, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that the best approach for any message is to buttress a position of protecting privacy and supporting organizations that uphold this position. The immediate achievable end goal is to gain the WMF enough public support to be bold in its actions to protect privacy. isaacl (talk) 19:25, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Insofar as I would support a blackout (and I am undecided), I really like this. If I could make one suggestion, I would maybe refocus the end of the second paragraph onto volunteers rather than the project? Something like "...privacy and wellbeing, but compromise the ability of all editors to feel safe from retalitation when contributing to Wikipedia." Giraffer (talk) 19:36, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't necessarily disagree, but I think that in the current social environment, I want to stress to readers that censoring us affects them more than I want to try and persuade them to feel empathy for us. But maybe there's a middle ground? "... privacy and wellbeing, but compromise the ability of every volunteer to further the mission of spreading knowledge as widely as possible, for free, for everyone". theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 19:46, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

made that change :) theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 20:00, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I can get behind this. Perhaps we need to direct this more at ANI rather than the court though. I dislike the prospect of giving a middle finger at the court, who are doing there job (let's be good faith). Fantastic Mr. Fox (talk) 19:44, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

i would normally show you the Wikipedia page on the lawsuit to prove that the Delhi High Court has absolutely not been neutral towards the WMF, but the Delhi High Court forced the WMF to take that page down, so... theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 20:01, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'd switch to support if the proposal were something to this effect. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 19:55, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I would very much support this. Focusing on the court/ANI directly rather than on the WMF might be the best way to go at it. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 19:58, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not really able to invest time in wordsmithing but I agree with this sentiment. The eventual wording should focus on the court's permitting of a SLAPP lawsuit to be filed and continue, and the fact they are attempting to pressure the WMF into revealing editors' personal identities to be sued personally with a SLAPP lawsuit. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 20:47, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Theleekycauldron: Thank you for putting this together. I wholeheartedly support this proposal. --Grnrchst (talk) 23:55, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

24 hour close

I'm a little concerned about a 24-hour close. Valereee (talk) 19:08, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. This has gotten chaotic and needs time to settle so we can assess where we're really at. Though time is not something we have much of, so hopefully this settling takes place sooner rather than later. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 19:12, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's not ideal, I agree, but with the WMF set to take action at any time, even 24 hours runs the risk of the WMF acting before the protest action stands a chance of accomplishing its desired ends. The court's deadline is under three days away now, and there's no way WMF's counsel will wait unil the last minute, nor even much chance at that they will wait until the last day; we have to assume disclosure could happen as early as this coming morning. For that matter, they may submit to the clerk of court at just about any hour these days. SnowRise ^{let's rap} 19:16, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This brings up the option of running the blackout after WMF acts (which they might not) owuh (talk | she/her) 19:19, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That wouldn't necesarily have exactly zero value to the community, but the primary objective here is to protect the volunteers from this disclosures in the first place. SnowRise ^{let's rap} 19:45, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A WP:LOCALCONSENSUS formed by three editors on a page frequented primarily by people interested in the subject has no validity, and should be ignored by a closer. I suggest that Chaotic Enby either strike that part or propose it separately below. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 19:21, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Done, it has been struck. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 19:53, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The wording used for the 24-hour close in the proposal makes it seem significantly more authoritative than it is. In actual fact the "as discussed prior" is an agreement among ~5 editors. WP:CONLEVEL is strongly at play here, and 24 hours is definitely not enough time to gain sufficient support for a measure that would affect every visitor of this site (let alone the editors not following the ANI stuff, as CONLEVEL refers to). Giraffer (talk) 19:27, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The issue is very much not a matter of firm consensus as I see it, and if there are competing notions, we should discuss (and eventually have an !vote if it becomes necessary). That said, I can tell you with a significant degree of confidence that these attroneys are not going to wait until the last minute of their >3 remaining days. Even 24 hours is uncertain to beat the clock here, and I highly recommend that anyone wanting the blackout to have a chance of accomplishing its main goal (protecting the PII of those volunteers), err on the side of caution. Anything past 36 hours and we arguably shouldn't even waste our time. SnowRise ^{let's rap} 19:51, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Agree, that isn't time to allow this to be well-advertised and well-attended. — xaosflux ^Talk 19:31, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

At this point, we don't even know if they've already done it, they plan to do it, they're considering doing it, or they've no intent to do it. So, there's a very real chance that no matter what, this will end up being an "after the fact" protest rather than anything that can stop it, if it's going to happen. I don't think, then, that we have any need to rush. WMF almost certainly knows that we're considering doing this, and there's a very real chance we will. Maybe given that, they'll even choose to deign to give us some more information, though I wouldn't hold out hope indefinitely for that, or it might give them pause in whatever they were planning previously. But getting in a huge rush risks this being ineffective, and this is something we only get to do once. It's important to get it right. If we do this in an ineffective way, we won't help anything or anyone. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 19:43, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

+1. Valereee (talk) 19:45, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Struck per very valid WP:CONLEVEL concerns. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 19:53, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Upon reflection, I don't think an accelerated discussion is appropriate to determine that there is consensus to blackout the site, especially if there is no click-through access. The operational impact would be large and would imply that there is a broad community consensus in support of the action, which just can't be determined in a short period of time. (For better or worse, patience is required to determine consensus in a large group.) Something like a site banner might be more suitable, though even then I think more than 24 hours are needed to establish consensus. isaacl (talk) 22:24, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Technical implementation?

As I said in my oppose above, it seems to me that this RfC is wildly premature, given that there is no technical implementation plan. What are the actual technical steps that people who are supporting this expect to be taken? Are those technical steps even possible, much less desirable? I understand people's haste, but it doesn't seem like there's anything to !vote on at this point. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 19:22, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The most straightforward approach to locally implement a blackout screen with a click-through to the content is to use Javascript. Although it can be worked around, the point would still be made, with the event covered by worldwide media. isaacl (talk) 19:29, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Options may greatly depend on what the desired effect will be, and how bulletproof it needs to be. Adding a large sitebanner to every page is easy, and if a dev supports us locking the database is also easy. Actually preventing all pages from being read takes extra work. — xaosflux ^Talk 19:28, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Xaosflux: Do you know how the SOPA blackout was implemented? —Compassionate727 ^(T·C) 21:19, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I believe we just used some js hackery and a giant central notice. See meta:English_Wikipedia_anti-SOPA_blackout/Technical_FAQ#Are_there_ways_to_circumvent_the_read_blackout.3F for more on the background. There may be better ways to do this now, depending on what the requirements are. — xaosflux ^Talk 21:41, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Along with removing 'edit' rights from everyone. — xaosflux ^Talk 22:09, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I understand that this latter component is no longer possible to implement locally? —Compassionate727 ^(T·C) 23:11, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It never was, it was a config change. The (edit) permission is in "Users" and "*" (everyone) - it could be removed with a config change. — xaosflux ^Talk 00:32, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think the idea is to determine at this stage if people in principle support the idea (after all, if the answer to that is "No, we wouldn't want to do this at all", there's no use wasting time with any further consideration). If the answer is "yes", then we can move on to what the desired implementation would be, and whether or not that is technically feasible. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 19:50, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I would totally support something that protested the Indian courts/government ordering the turnover of personal data. Valereee (talk) 19:52, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Somewhat paradoxically, that is more likely to get the WMF into hot water with the court faster, while also being far less likely to achieve our aim of preventing the disclosure of the information. Anyway, the standing proposal, with its substantial number of !votes designates that we are protesting the WMF's decision to comply with the order. I mean, you could try to get another proposal off the ground, but I can't say as it feels super likely to get enough support to supplant whatever consensus result we see here. SnowRise ^{let's rap} 21:39, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

To be quite honest, I couldn't care less if WMF gets into "hot water" with courts it shouldn't be dealing with in the first place. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 21:43, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Would it be possible to blackout everything except ANI? Or even better, just redirect everything to there until the blackout ends (joke). I do worry that even a support on this could be prevented by the WMF. What's to say they can't just veto it? Conyo14 (talk) 19:50, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hypothetically, the WMF could, yes. In practical reality, though, the WMF depends on the volunteer community to maintain the projects that pay their salaries, so they can't just ban all of us. If at the end of the day we say "We're doing this whether you like it or not", they can't so easily say "Oh no you're not". They can, in a technical sense, but the last time they tried that, it didn't end so well. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 19:54, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think Fram's comment above (If the WMF would veto this, we and they are in much bigger trouble than we are already. Such a veto would not end well, just like the previous times they tried to flex their muscles here. is valid. If anyone would know, it's them. Sincerely, Dilettante 19:53, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It think an unprecedented 48+ hour black out would benefit WMF even if they got some bad credit from being on the cover message, since is would mean that ANI would be subject to a fairly unbalanced court of public opinion. I don't see a veto on the bingo card for this. Fantastic Mr. Fox (talk) 19:57, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Before voting on the blackout, how does enwiki's own blackout work technically? Is it a gadget, css style, or...? George Ho (talk) 20:58, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There are no answers to those questions thus far. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 21:29, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Context

What recent events that I may have missed resulted in the escalation from the open letter that I signed to a proposal to temporarily black out Wikipedia? --Minoa (talk) 22:14, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Minoa, it's linked at the top above. But new reporting indicates that the WMF seems to be planning to comply with giving up the three editors' email addresses to the court within the next four days. Technically, in a "sealed cover", meaning only the court gets to see it, but the ANI prosecution can quite easily still file a request for the information (or anyone in the court could leak it to them, none of us really trust the court system going on over there). And the emails in question could also quite easily have identifying info on the Wikipedia editors, such as their real names. Silver seren^C 22:31, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

So, as you can see, we seem to be on a strict, short time limit here to prevent this from happening. We are likely to fail, but many of us feel like we have to try and do something. Silver seren^C 22:33, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comparison between SOPA/PIPA and ANI vs. WMF

Comparison between SOPA/PIPA and ANI v. WMF
Questions	SOPA/PIPA (2011–2012)	ANI v. WMF (2024–present)
What are these bills/court precedent about?	See Stop Online Piracy Act and PROTECT IP Act	Censored
Will these bills/court precedent have an adverse effect on Wikipedia and other WMF projects?	Yes	Yes
Are there significant public backlash against these bills/court precedent outside of WMF?	Yes	No
Are there other major organizations that openly opposed these bills/court precedent	Yes	No
Due to contentions regarding the Indian court case, this table is subject to change.

I noticed that some users mentioned the SOPA/PIPA situation (2012) and its supposed similarities with this court case. So I made a short (for now) table comparing and contrasting these scenarios. AlphaBeta135 talk 01:08, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note from Jimbo

Note from Jimbo Wales: Apologies for sticking this right at the top, but as this is an incredibly important situation, and I am working hard to make sure that we get a good outcome, and since my comment on this is something people ought to read before voting, I'm adding this note here kindly asking people to read what I've had to say before voting. The tl;dr is I strongly recommend against this as being both counterprodutive and unnecessary. Details below.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 23:04, 14 November 2024 (UTC) (shifted from above) Boud (talk) 23:49, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I am speaking here only for myself, not the board, not the WMF, not anyone else. A hastily organized blackout without a clear target or purpose strikes me as an unwise and bordering on silly thing to do, and I urge restraint. I urge those who have voted in favor of this proposal to reverse your votes for the timing being. The title of this is "Should a blackout be organized in protest of the Wikimedia Foundation's actions" - which is of course very premature as the WMF has not released anyone's data. So what's to protest?

If the title were changed (and some of the commentary seems to hint in this direction) to make this a protest of the court's order, well, I shouldn't have to explain to anyone why that's extremely unlikely to help our actions to defend the rights of the movement in court.

I am privy to the board discussions of these matters and the disconnect between what some people seem to think is going on, and what is actually going on, is stark. Let me repeat somethiing I said the other day: "All I can say right now, and this should be clear enough, is that you know my principles and ideals, and I am comfortable with the approach that the WMF legal team is taking at the present time."--Jimbo Wales (talk) 22:11, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The motivation behind the title is presumably that even considering releasing info should not be done. The fact that the WMF has not released data doesn't mean it has acted in a universally popular manner Sincerely, Dilettante 22:16, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Depending on the meaning of "considering" I can't really agree with you. I mean, all thinking adults can reasonably say (about anything): tell me all my options, all my possible courses of action, and I will decide among this. For some options, the consideration only takes a moment. I'm telling you, speaking only for myself, that I've not seen anything to give me cause for concern.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 22:55, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

How long is "the time being"? We've repeatedly asked for a time frame, and repeatedly been rebuffed at that. Are we talking two days, two weeks, two years, two decades? That matters. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 22:20, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Specifically "for the time being" means that there's no need to protest against something that, in my view, is extremely unlikely to happen. I don't know how to be any more clear than that. If the WMF did something wrong, I'd gladly join the protest myself.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 22:55, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Jimbo, even *considering* breaking the anonymity of three editors for a SLAPP lawsuit goes against everything I thought I knew the foundation to stand for. Even if making that stand is “sealed” (for now), even if the WMF pays their legal fees, the harm is done once anonymity is broken. Nothing stops the court from breaking that seal later. The editors will face harm to their time wasted, their personal, and professional lives even if the lawsuit is dismissed. Shut the entire site down in India if necessary - or admit that you’re willing to throw three editors under the bus for the potential “greater good”. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 22:27, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

See my above comment on 'considering'. Serious people, when faced with a difficult situation, definitely should get a comprehensive view of all possible courses of action. Failing to do that wouldn't be sensible. The board of course can and should "consider" all possible alternatives, however briefly, in order to make an informed decision. There's nothing in the deliberations that I've seen that gives me any cause for concern.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 22:55, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It’s been months since they started “considering” complying. It’s not premature to ask why they’ve been considering this for much more than “briefly” at this point. I will reiterate that any outcome that results in these editors information being given to this kangaroo court should have been able to be quickly and decisively shut down - even if that means facing contempt/shutdown in India. And it should not have taken months and hundreds of editors complaining after the visibility of an office action to “briefly” consider it. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 23:01, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I appreciate your wish - which I share - that the world were different than it is, but unless you're an expert in India media law, I think it might be wise to refrain from coming to conclusions too hastily. You see public reports, not the private discussions, which are thoughtful and kind and deeply about protecting the rights of volunteers. Don't jump to assumptions otherwise, as you'll be mistaken if you do.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 23:09, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If we could trust the WMF would do anything and everything to not release these editors information, they wouldn’t have offered to do so under seal. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 23:11, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Not to mention that unless I’m mistaken, the WMF or its local lawyers are who suggested filing the information sealed as a “compromise”. That’s more than considering options - and there should be no compromise that throws these editors under any bus, whether sealed, public, appealable, or otherwise. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 23:04, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

And let's not forget that one of these editors presumably only reverted an IP editor on that page. So now anyone who's doing counter-vandalism could potentially get sued? AstonishingTunesAdmirer 連絡 22:41, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed, that's actually crucial to remember, and it's why privacy and a vigorous legal defense are so important.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 22:55, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Jimbo, it's one thing for the WMF to do jackshit when a transgender editor gets harrassed to the point of needing extended confirmed protection on both user and user talk pages. It's even worse that they would willingly give private info in a SLAPP lawsuit instigated by a hostile government. LilianaUwU ^{(talk / contributions)} 22:40, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, so if that happened, I'd be right at the top of the list in terms of signing a protest. But, what I'm saying as clearly as I can, is that I'm not worried about that happening and so a blackout/whatever is misguided and misinformed. I am only speaking for myself, not the board and not the WMF.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 22:55, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Not to be hostile and most definitely not to support the harassment of a trans editor, but isn't it the community's role to protect editors in situations like these? I thought the WMF was here to host/fund Wikipedia and serve as its legal representative. I'm open to being wrong; I'm not super familiar with WP and WMF policy. /home/gracen/ (yell at me here) 22:47, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Jimbo, many of us don't know you personally well (or at all). Your assurance that this conforms to your principles means little to us, as does your trust in the WMF, which, as I'm sure you are aware, many of us do not share. —Compassionate727 ^(T·C) 22:54, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I appreciate that, although I don't think you need to know me personally to understand that I've been here for a long time, I've been fighting hard for freedom of expression and the rights of Wikipedians and Wikipedia for a long time. I've seen a lot, I've done a lot. We didn't back down in similar circumstances, and I'm telling you from that perspective, and that I see what is going on here, that I am personally not worried and think that a protest is unwarranted.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 22:59, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What is needed is a statement that the WMF will NOT release the information. At least that is what I think would help. That is the core issue here from what I can gather. LakesideMiners^{Come Talk To Me!} 23:05, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Making one's strategy public removes any leverage. Valereee (talk) 23:17, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I failed to mention this the other day, but letting you know I do trust your judgement here. The letter is a strong show of opinion against doing so. Blacking out the website before someone has even brought the documents into the court would be throwing a bone to ANI in the case. Fantastic Mr. Fox (talk) 23:10, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your comments here Jimbo, your affirmation of the importance of privacy and legal defence is reassuring. I've changed my vote to specify conditions for my support. I really don't like that people have been using this as a platform to air grievances, sometimes rehashed old grievances, against the WMF. It has also worried me that so many people are assuming bad faith and ill intent of the WMF. Even though I think better communication could be had, I understand why the WMF is playing its cards close to the chest.

That being said, I do still feel the need for community action. Not against the WMF, but against any intimidation of our colleagues and censorship of our platform. Since the ANI lawsuit, I have personally seen several Indian editors express that they no longer feel safe editing Wikipedia. I have also witnessed Indian far-right organisations, emboldened by the ANI lawsuit, threatening not only legal action but physical violence against my colleagues here. This is something that demands a collective response. A blackout may be an escalation, but it's one in response to a terrifying situation for many of us. --Grnrchst (talk) 23:49, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I hear you loud and clear. Like you and everyone else here, I will be watching to see what unfolds. Jimbo Wales (talk) 01:10, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

the WMF has not released anyone's data - WMF has been ordered to do so in next 4 days as per this order [7], the email IDs of users will be submitted to the single judge, respondent 1(ANI) can also ask for disclosure of those details if necessary, not following these orders would mean contempt of court which Wikipedia wouldn't want to happen right? So the protest is not premature at all. - Ratnahastin (talk) 01:10, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, Jimbo Wales, it is an incredibly important situation, which is no justification for you to attempt to unduly influence the result of the vote. It's not strictly WP:CANVASSING, but it's probably worse. It's clearly unethical. Boud (talk) 23:52, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This is wild, and not very civil. Jimbo has done nothing of the sort, and has gone out of his way to respect our autonomy and share the limited information he can while also encouraging us to respect the professionals who are working on our behalf to figure out a solution to this. Edit: I misunderstood the context, see User:Compassionate727's comment below. I apologize User:Boud for responding without realizing I was missing context. I still don't see Jimbo's action as quite as inappropriate as all that, but probably not the best approach to be sure. — penultimate_supper 🚀 ^{(talk • contribs)} 00:35, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think Boud is referring to the comment Jimbo had left at the very top of the RfC earlier. It has since been refactored several times to make it less prominent. —Compassionate727 ^(T·C) 00:44, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, I missed that context and have amended my comments above. — penultimate_supper 🚀 ^{(talk • contribs)} 00:54, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Media involvement

If we do a blackout, there will almost certainly be media involvement. Even the planning for it may come to the attention of the media. We would need to have statements ready to give them, so I would like to invite workshopping of media statements here so as to communicate to the average person, who does not edit Wikipedia or maybe does not even read it, why this is of importance to them. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 22:14, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Similar to the landing page for the previous blackout, there ought to be a landing page for a "Learn more..." link, which can provide background information and discussion of the relevant concerns for anyone interested, including the media. isaacl (talk) 22:31, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's a pity WMF v. ANI is blacklocked. Someone could copy the content from one of the mirrors to a projectspace page and update it, but they'd be painting a target on their back for ANI. Sincerely, Dilettante 22:33, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The office action remains in effect, so that content shouldn't be repeated anywhere on-wiki. That does make it more challenging to cover the background. isaacl (talk) 22:48, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"Wikipedia is making a stand against the ability of corporations to take de facto control of one of the primary waterways of public information regarding them. We are also testing the idea of the internet being the 'wild west' - the idea that anyone can dance around the internet and laugh in the face of the threatened consequences.

Wikipedia is one of the few sites that could have to ability to resist attempts by authority seeking knowledge about privately disillusioned persons. The Delhi Court and ANI is testing if it does."

Something like this could get the point and perspective across if someone/something asked. Although I wouldn't be comfortable with it being the landing page text. Fantastic Mr. Fox (talk) 22:34, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Attacking the court sounds like a bad idea. Nakonana (talk) 23:51, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What percentage of !votes would be enough for this to be considered succesful

Someone will almost certainly claim that 50%+1 is enough for this to be a "consensus". That is a fundamental misunderstanding of what consensus is, so we should nip that in the bud if possible.

For some unimportant decisions 50%+1 may be enough. But for a drastic idea like this one that can have very negative consequence and impacts many people like this it is unfair to use 50%+1.

In certain countries you need a large majority to, for example, make constitutional changes (e.g. 75%).

Another problem is that this WP:RFC's opening statement is far from neutral. Because the non-neutral opening statement has biased the results it is difficult to gauge actual consensus. It is difficult to tell how much the misinformation affected people's opinions. So it seems like this all was a giant waste of everyone's time and we should move on. We got an encyclopedia to write. Polygnotus (talk) 23:42, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think it should be per WP:Consensus, not per editors trying to game the outcome in this talk section. I think your last paragraph is massively untrue. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:47, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Tryptofish: It would be unreasonable to claim that people here actually know how the courtcase went, which legal strategies are and will be used, and what the WMF and its lawyers think. And this RFC is a clear attempt at gaming the system. Note that WP:RFC explicitly says: Statement should be neutral and brief. We can't A/B test with a different universe in which a neutral RfC statement was written and people know what was going on. You need far more than 50%+1 for a blackout, just like for any other drastic decision that negatively impacts others. Polygnotus (talk) 23:51, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You must be reading a different RfC than the one I am. This isn't about filing a legal brief. It's about communicating with the general public. But if you want to make an argument about the merits of the proposal, do that. Don't try to play the refs. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:55, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The general public does not give a shit about this kinda stuff. Obviously. The very first link in the RfC statement is to a page where 800+ people put their signatures because they were misled into thinking that that would help. How is that neutral? Polygnotus (talk) 23:59, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As one of these people, I can tell you that I wasn't misled. I wasn't expecting any meaningful result from it. And it was still worth signing, to send a message to the WMF (that people do not agree with their potential course of action) and any other three letter organization that might read it. AstonishingTunesAdmirer 連絡 00:21, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@AstonishingTunesAdmirer: Thanks for proving my point. And great username btw. Polygnotus (talk) 00:49, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry I forgot to ping @Tryptofish:. Polygnotus (talk) 00:01, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

So apparently you think over 800 of your fellow editors were misled by fake news. I'm done responding here, please stop pinging me. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:04, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yup. Probably far more. It is pretty easy to mislead people, as recent elections have shown. The opening statement of the RfC is very clearly biased; it takes ages to find a voice of reason if you click the links and start reading. These people are well-meaning but ill-informed. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Polygnotus (talk) 00:07, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

So what would you have linked to? The first link was chosen because it's the quickest to read and it offers an alternative to blackout. If someone gets exhausted after the grand total of one paragraph there and refuses to so much as skim the others, there's no helping them. Sincerely, Dilettante 00:09, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Dilettante: In the hypothetical scenario that I would start an RfC I would try to give a neutral non-biased list of factual information. Perhaps a pros and cons list. Perhaps I'd invite both sides to post their POV side by side. Ideally I would make clear what the consequences are and how they are to be achieved. The first link is 800+ people and there is no section for those who disagree, because that is not how open letters work. See Social proof. It is weird that those who started this RfC didn't even try to create a neutral opening statement (or, failed this hard). Polygnotus (talk) 00:12, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Since you're the only person to complain thus far, despite over a 100 users weighing in, I'm not convinced we failed. I will agree, however, that the drafting was rushed, with less than an hour between my initial rough draft and another user posting it. Sincerely, Dilettante 00:44, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Well, if an RfC opening statement is incredibly one-sided and misleading then those who started the RfC failed in creating a neutral balanced RfC opening statement. In future I would recommend the strategies I listed above. This RfC has wasted a lot of time and the outcome cannot be used as proof one way or the other. Polygnotus (talk) 00:51, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Since you're the only person to complain thus far, despite over a 100 users weighing in, I'm not convinced it's one-sided and misleading. Sincerely, Dilettante 00:52, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps more would complain if they weren't misled. Give it a try. Read the opening statements and follow the links. How long does it take you to find anyone who shares my POV? Polygnotus (talk) 01:00, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

One minute unless I read every single signatory's username, which I don't think anyone is doing. It's worth noting five separate users questioned whether Jimbo followed RFCNEUTRAL in the span of 53 minutes. People are paying attention to bias.Sincerely, Dilettante 01:07, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think we can leave this to an experienced closer, who I'm sure will approach it cautiously. Valereee (talk) 00:20, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You are far more optimistic than I am. Polygnotus (talk) 00:31, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Polygnotus, what makes you think an experienced closer would not approach this thoughtfully? I certainly would, if I were closing. Valereee (talk) 00:40, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@User:Valereee Well, when reading that I immediately thought of the bad closes I've seen. Of course those were a small minority, but the stakes are pretty high here because there is the potential to negatively affect an ongoing courtcase that may lead to negative consequences for Wikipedians. As a pessimist I am often pleasantly surprised, while optimists get more jaded by the day. Polygnotus (talk) 00:45, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm still an unjaded optimist after nearly two decades here. We do muddle through. Valereee (talk) 00:53, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Cutting service after court decision

If the high court were to rule that Wikimedia Foundation has to disclose users' personal information, should there be a possibility of WMF cutting service from India in order to avoid following a potentially ruinous court ruling and thus users outside of India won't have their info being sent to some foreign government or other major third parties? I admit that I am entering WP:CRYSTALBALL territory. AlphaBeta135 talk 00:10, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Are you asking if it is an option? Sure. But I am no time traveler. And, as explained above, that probably wouldn't help. And it would make it real easy to get rid of the inconvenient truth. It is not impossible that other countries would also like that outcome. Polygnotus (talk) 00:13, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support Wikipedia must protect personal information from corrupt governments. Catfurball (talk) 00:20, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
How do you do that when there are no laws that protect personal information and corrupt governments are forging close alliances with tech companies? The only way to do it is to modify the Wikimedia software to force encryption at the software level such that WMF couldn’t reveal personal information even if they wanted to. Hopefully, that’s the way forward. Viriditas (talk) 00:58, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It ruled that the WMF had to disclose a while ago. The WMF has been appealing and arguing since then. And I feel like there was already pretty broad agreement that stepping away from India was the result that we wanted if it came to choosing between the two. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 00:21, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Where does this map come from? Are partial blocks even possible when we use HTTPS? And I don't think N. Korea technically blocks Wikipedia, rather than that there are no Internet connection for ordinary people. — 魔琴 (Zauber Violino) [ talk contribs ] 00:31, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Wikipedia_Availability.svg#filelinks it is used by Censorship of Wikipedia. Polygnotus (talk) 00:32, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The linked article says that partial block doesn't work (according to the section on Russia), so what does "partially blocked" mean on that map? Nakonana (talk) 00:55, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It has already ruled that , read the order here. - Ratnahastin (talk) 01:01, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]