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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Red (Taylor Swift album)/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Buidhe via FACBot (talk) 3 November 2021 [1].

Red (Taylor Swift album)

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Nominator(s): TheSandDoctor Talk 04:46, 7 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

With the recording of this album, America's Sweetheart experimented and blurred the line between country and pop, producing what is widely considered one of the best albums of the 2010s; the next album in her chronology turned her into a fully-fledged pop machine. While I think it's ready for the bronze star, I'm open to any suggestions concerning possible improvements so that the article could reach its full FA potential. TheSandDoctor Talk 04:46, 7 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Image and media review (pass)

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Apologies in advance as I will likely only have time to do an image and media review. My comments are below:

Addressed comments

I will look at the audio samples tomorrow if that is okay with you. I participated in the peer review for this article and while my questions and comments about the audio samples were answered there, I still want to make sure that I thoroughly review them again. I hope you are doing well and staying safe. Aoba47 (talk) 03:56, 8 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Aoba47: All good! Take your time, I greatly appreciate you doing the media review as the source and media reviews are definitely the trickier ones to get done haha. It is very greatly appreciated; I didn't even think you'd still be around to do any of this haha. --TheSandDoctor Talk 04:58, 8 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • The audio samples all have clear WP:FUR and roles in the article.
  • I have some prose concerns for File:IKnewYouWereTrouble.ogg's caption. It reads rather awkwardly to me, particularly since there's so much information put into a single sentence. This phrasing, Swift's most radical sonic innovation on the album, seems off to me. I get what you mean (i.e. this was the biggest change for her), but it seems awkwardly phrased. I do not think "innovation" really works here, but maybe it's because I find that word so over-used to the point that it has become meaningless.
    @Aoba47: How would you recommend this be reworded? It matches the article prose. --TheSandDoctor Talk 19:08, 9 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    I would recommend brainstorming a few idea. I'd at least change the innovation part as I find that to be awkwardly worded and the part of the caption that I kept coming back to with uncertainty. Aoba47 (talk) 19:36, 9 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    @Aoba47: How about "sonic development" or "most significant change on..."? Admittedly, I think "innovation" fits rather well haha. --TheSandDoctor Talk 20:10, 9 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    I personally do not think "innovation" works in this context. However, in my opinion, that word has been over-used. The "most significant change on..." idea seems more direct and transparent to me. Aoba47 (talk) 20:34, 9 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    @Aoba47: Actioned with a slight twist: "Regarded by critics as Swift's most significant sonic change on the album,...". I can take out "sonic", I just felt it possibly fits a bit better to answer the inevitable "what type of change?" question that readers/editors could hit with. --TheSandDoctor Talk 20:56, 9 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Looks good to me. Thank you for addressing this. Aoba47 (talk) 21:56, 9 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • For File:Taylor Swift - All Too Well sample.ogg's caption, I would clarify who views this song as the album's emotional centerpiece.
    Done. --TheSandDoctor Talk 19:08, 9 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • The caption for File:BeginAgain.ogg looks good. The prose is a tad wordy. You could slightly condense about finding hope after having endured emotional distress to about finding hope after enduring emotional distress, but otherwise, it is good and does a good job defending its use in the article.
    Done. --TheSandDoctor Talk 19:08, 9 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This should be the end of my image/media review. Everything with the audio samples themselves looks good, and I just have some prose issues with the captions. Once these points have been addressed, I will pass this review. Aoba47 (talk) 21:32, 8 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your patience with this review. This FAC passes my image and media review. Best of luck with the nomination! Aoba47 (talk) 21:56, 9 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your review, Aoba47! --TheSandDoctor Talk 17:19, 10 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Support from DMT

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I've issued now relevant comments on the peer review and I am satisfied it meets FA criteria. DMT Biscuit (talk) 16:21, 9 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your review, DMT Biscuit! --TheSandDoctor Talk 19:08, 9 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Pamzeis

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Placeholder for now. I'm not a Swiftie (that is how you spell her fanbase, right?) and I will try not to screw this up. Ping me if I don't leave comments by Sunday! Pamzeis (talk) 04:03, 13 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Pamzeis: Pinging per your request above. --TheSandDoctor Talk 05:27, 19 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

OK, here we go. Alert me if I screw something up

Apologies for the delay. I have been busy due to poor time management. Ping me when these are resolved. Pamzeis (talk) 07:04, 23 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Jim

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This isn't a topic where I normally review, so I can only assume that the content is typical for popular music FAs, it certainly looks comprehensive, and I couldn't really see any significant grammatical issues. Some comments

  • "red" emotions that resulted from the unhealthy romance she experienced during the album's conception. Its songs discuss the complex and conflicting emotions ensued from lost romance.—repeats of Emotions and romance could perhaps be avoided
    @Jimfbleak: I missed the first bullet, my apologies. Given the topic matter, I am not sure that it can really be changed up too much. How about the second sentence end with "ensued from a lost romantic relationship."? That just seems unnecessarily wordy though...I'm open to any suggestions. --TheSandDoctor Talk 17:30, 20 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    @TheSandDoctor: I’d simply word it: “The album's title refers to Swift's tumultuous, “red”, emotions she felt in her relationship during the album's conception; in its songs she discusses complex and conflicting feelings from fading romance.” - which handles multiple issues with those lines. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 17:01, 22 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    @Coffee: Done. Good suggestion! cc @Jimfbleak: --TheSandDoctor Talk 17:03, 22 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • It additionally includes several songs Swift wrote and expected to include on the 2012 album.—Not sure additionally is necessary, and had expected might be better
    Done. --TheSandDoctor Talk 15:34, 19 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • hoping to "learn from them"* and her "comfort zone". Not sure why these standard phrases merit apostrophes
    Removed. --TheSandDoctor Talk 15:34, 19 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • American singer and actor Lauren Alaina cited Red as an album that changed her life—not sure why this particular piece of hyperbole merits a mention, unless it really did change her life, in which case we need to be told how
    Read the source and she seemed to say that about a lot of artists without citing how. Removed. --TheSandDoctor Talk 15:34, 19 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • We don't normally accept Amazon as a ref, and in fact a script I use has shaded it as a generally unreliable source, why do you consider it acceptable here?
    @Jimfbleak: I have that script as well, but 1989 (Taylor Swift album) was promoted with them and uses them in the same context (citing that they were released in that country with that version, not for other fact checks or anything controversial). The entire release history sections would most likely have to go without Amazon in both of them. --TheSandDoctor Talk 15:34, 19 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • the last two refs have Chinese titles, don't we normally use trans-title to provide the English equivalent?
    Resolved. --TheSandDoctor Talk 15:34, 19 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Again with the last two refs, one has (in Chinese) the other doesn't.'
    Resolved. --TheSandDoctor Talk 15:34, 19 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Jimfbleak - talk to me? 13:29, 19 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your review, Jimfbleak! I've replied above to that point, which I missed beforehand. --TheSandDoctor Talk 17:30, 20 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Source review - pass

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  • Sources are high quality. I consider the use of Amazon acceptable for release dates, as opposed to buyer feedback.
  • No formatting issues.
  • No dead links.
  • Spot checks: 69, 70, 112, 150, 151, 239, 257, 255, 256 - all okay (but see below)
  • 255, 256: Archive goes to a CAPTCHA. Replace the useless archive.org archive links with the archive.today ones.
    Done. --TheSandDoctor Talk 03:09, 20 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Hawkeye7 (discuss) 18:31, 19 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your review, Hawkeye7! --TheSandDoctor Talk 03:09, 20 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Support from zmbro

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Thank you for your review, Zmbro! --TheSandDoctor Talk 03:09, 20 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from SatDis

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Comments from Mike Christie

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Not a full review, but can anything be done to render the reception section into a more narrative form? The division into paragraphs by topic seems fine, but within the paragraphs there is a lot of "A said B". In the third paragraph, for example, we get "Jonathan Keefe wrote ... Michael Gallucci found ... Robert Christgau viewed ... James Lachno found ... Mesfin Fekadu felt ..." Once the topic statement for the paragraph is given, we just get a sequence of examples. In other words, rather than a statement in the article's voice which is illuminated by quotes, we get the quotes. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 01:11, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Mike Christie: That is never my strong suit apparently, which is why I always go through GOCE first. I've changed the wording up a bit. Does that look any better? I am open to suggestions. --TheSandDoctor Talk 02:39, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

That helps a bit; I know it's hard to get these sections to flow. Looking through some of the sources, how do you get "appreciated Swift's efforts to expand her sonic territory" out of Christgau's review? And I see a few more things in the review sources that look like they might be usefully mentioned. From Gallucci, for example, the "blah duets" (could be contrasted with Fekadu's positive comments), use of Auto-Tune, and comments about her divergence away from a country sound. From Keefe, again the departure from country, the specifics about what is wrong with the production, a "real sense of risk" which goes with Gallucci's comments about it being bold (you phrase this as "ambitious" which is fine), the positive comments about the production of some songs. From Fekadu, a comment that "stepping out of her comfort zone doesn't always work" which ties to the risk comments. From Lachno, positive comments about the duets, and it's clear that unlike most of the other reviewers Lachno is not a fan of her earlier albums; and he also disagrees with the "risk" line of comment, saying "too often, Swift's nerve fails her as she returns to her tried and tested formula". And that's just looking at the sources in that paragraph; I didn't check the sources from the first two paragraphs. I just had a quick look at the NYT review; you have a single point cited to that review, but it's a long review -- are you sure you've extracted all the useful information from it?

I think more work is needed on disassembling what the reviewers are saying, and putting it back together in prose that tells more than it quotes. An example is here, where I and another editor tried to do this. I usually find it's necessary to pull the reviews apart into points they make, so I can see what can be usefully combined into paragraphs. I think you've done some of that here, but there is more source material that could be used, and the more commonality you can find across the points made in the reviews the easier it is to structure the prose to reflect the themes of the reviews rather than just taking quotes from them.

I'm also a bit doubtful about which reviews you've used -- this is a small list of cited reviewers for one of the most prominent albums of that year. The London Times? Chicago Herald Tribune? And I'm not expert on the specialist music sources, but are you sure you have seen all the important ones? There must have been hundreds of reviews; how did you pick these? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:43, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Mike Christie: re the "appreciated" bit, I have no idea as I didn't add it but agree. Reworked to be better based on the source.
Those are some good tips & I will endeavor to include them over the next few days. I will keep you updated and let you know if I have any questions. I take it that you see this section expanding considerably as well? Its current length appears in line with other FAs.
I didn't write this section, so had really no part in what reviews were included. I think that there is a representative amount here selected, but could happily find more. Are there any in particular you either object to or would suggest adding? That ("all the important ones") isn't really a question that can be answered as it is entirely subjective to that individual editor/reader. --TheSandDoctor Talk 05:16, 27 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
It could well end up being longer, but I'm not insisting on that -- for example, if you end up summarizing opinions across multiple reviews and not using as many quotes, it might be about the same length. A reception section ought to reflect the sum of the critical commentary about the album, so I don't think one can say how long it needs to be without reading the reviews. I'll keep an eye on the article and this FAC; let me know when you want me to take another look. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:07, 27 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Mike Christie It looks like this FAC is mostly wrapped up except your comments. (t · c) buidhe 14:14, 3 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I’m not convinced this is as good as it could be, but I can’t in good conscience oppose without spending more time looking through the reviews and figuring out what more could be done. The changes made since my comment are an improvement, but I can’t support either as I haven’t read through the whole article. I don’t expect to have time to revisit, either, so I think it’s OK to promote. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 16:02, 3 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Copyvio check

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Earwig is clean (t · c) buidhe 14:12, 3 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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