User talk:Timeshifter/Table 2

Note: This talk page is for discussing the tables for List of "Occupy" protest locations

Table formatting

I'm not sure what it looks like on your end, or if you are making more changes, but even on my wide-screen monitor, it still looks like this. http://i43.tinypic.com/4hxvsz.jpg 67.142.161.20 (talk) 15:55, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

I am working on a width setting for that column. Preferably in em units. Can you register a username? Then you can get email when someone replies on your talk page. --Timeshifter (talk) 16:08, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

My old account is inactive and I prefer not to use another one, so I'm sorry. I'll be checking your page for a reply. If I can make a suggestion for a way to keep the words, keep a single line for the countries and cities and make the width better, I think I have a solution:

Country or region:	City or district:	Date protest began:	Largest number of protesters:	References:	Notes:
Spain	Barcelona	Oct. 15, 2011	400,000
	Madrid	Oct. 15, 2011	500,000
	Malaga	Oct. 15, 2011	20,000
	Mieres	Oct. 15, 2011	15,000
	Las Palmas de Gran Canaria	Oct. 15, 2011	5,000
	Palma de Mallorca	Oct. 15, 2011	10,000
Spain: Organized before 'Occupy' as the Spanish 15-M Indignados. See 2011 Spanish protests.

If you like that, I can make this change. 67.142.161.20 (talk) 16:14, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

This seems to be working:

!style="background: #e3e3e3;" scope="col" width="120"|Country<br>or region:

I tried a wider width, but it was too wide in Internet Explorer. This width seems to work better in both Firefox and Internet Explorer. I use a larger font in Firefox, and this width still works fine. I wouldn't go any wider. Otherwise there is less room left for notes in a 17-inch monitor like mine.

More info here: Help:Table#Width, height --Timeshifter (talk) 16:26, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

On FireFox it looks decent for me, however this whole time I have been using Google Chrome. When that code was inserted on Chrome, it made the table automatically assume a 100% width for every column that didn't have that code. http://i44.tinypic.com/16ishzk.jpg I guess I can just keep editing this under FireFox, but there may be a problem later for when Chrome is more popular. 67.142.161.20 (talk) 16:36, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

Try reloading the Chrome page. I fixed the cities column to a width too. Since there are no longer any photos to the right, it doesn't matter much if the notes column extends all the way to the right. I want the notes column to have as much space as possible. Otherwise, additional notes could cause more and more cities to need 2 lines. After reloading can you post a Chrome screenshot with the column headings showing along with some of what is below. --Timeshifter (talk) 17:08, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

Reloaded the Chrome page since I've made a few edits as well. The auto-adjust 100% still appears to be there. http://i39.tinypic.com/v7cac2.jpg Inluded some of Asia with it to give you a comparison. I'm going to be idle for the next few hours and when I come back I'll finish the United States up. 67.142.161.20 (talk) 18:07, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

I limited the width of more columns. It is better to set them to narrower widths. The columns will still expand if necessary to accommodate a wide word.

I don't mind the 100% width for the notes column. There may be a way to make the notes column width shrink down to the width used for the widest note. Maybe in Help:Tables. --Timeshifter (talk) 19:10, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

I tried my hand at it, and I got a width that works perfectly on Google Chrome. I looked to see how it looked on FireFox and Internet Explorer and they seem alright. If Europe looks alright with you, we should probably keep it this way since it seems finding a width for all three browsers is almost impossible. 67.142.161.20 (talk) 01:34, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

I just adjusted it again, and it looks identical on all three browsers as far as I can tell. The only trade off is that "style="width: 70%" (the number can change depending) has to stay in the formatting at the beginning of the Europe section. It's the only trade-off that we can make so that Google Chrome users don't get a completely wonky table that auto-adjusts to 100%. If it wasn't for Chrome, the way it was would have been fine. If longer text is added it won't auto-adjust like the other tables, but we can always adjust that manually. 67.142.161.20 (talk) 04:32, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

This works in Firefox and Internet Explorer:

class="wikitable" style="font-size:90%; text-align:left; width:570;"

I added up the widths for all the columns. Is this method working in Chrome? If so, it would be better, because a percentage setting is not working right in Firefox and Internet Explorer. Plus people use different skins such as Monobook, etc.. Also, it could possibly be problematic for small screens. --Timeshifter (talk) 04:41, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

Chrome must be really sensitive or something because it extended to about 120% of the screen when added up. I'll try a different number in the way you had it. 67.142.161.20 (talk) 04:50, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

The width:65% setting really messed up Internet Explorer. It made the total table width much smaller than in Firefox. It may be an HTML versus CSS width setting that is causing the problem. --Timeshifter (talk) 04:53, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

Hmm, well I tried the class="wikitable" style="font-size:90%; text-align:left; width:570;" format, replacing 570 with 100 and 60, which looked fine on I.E., but Chrome still auto-adjusts no matter what number in that format. A % has to be included otherwise Chrome is, I wouldn't say bad, but the 20% of the internet that uses Chrome will seriously wonder why we made the table like that. Can we compromise and put the extra text next to Slovenia, Spain and Portugal in the Notes section? 67.142.161.20 (talk) 05:01, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

http://i40.tinypic.com/2iu7see.jpg That is with no width at all, and the extra comments in the notes section. We can go back to having no width at all, Chrome will still be auto-adjusted to 100%, but it won't look too bad as long as the extra comments are in notes. 67.142.161.20 (talk) 05:12, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

(unindent) I don't understand what you are seeing in Chrome when using this:

• class="wikitable" style="font-size:90%; text-align:left; width:570;"

Combined with individual column widths. Is the table expanding to fill the full width of the screen? Is Chrome completely ignoring all total width settings except percentages. It makes no sense. I suggest trying HTML width="570" or width="570pt" or width="570em", etc.. That is different from style="width:570;"

From what I read on the web, Chrome is really quirky when rendering tables. Setting the widths for each column works great in Firefox and Internet Explorer, with some variations, but nothing problematic. Setting the total table width (width:570;) is unnecessary in Firefox and Internet Explorer.--Timeshifter (talk) 05:19, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

What I see when I used that, is the table expanding to the full length of the browser space available. Since I have a wide-screen I can expand the size of my browsers more than other people could, but typical users are going to see what I posted in the pictures, which is it stretched all the way across the width of the browser window. Your width adjustments look fine in I.E. and FireFox, but 570 in Chrome was just as bad. I can try some of the other ones in a preview edit to see if it makes a difference. 67.142.161.20 (talk) 05:27, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

This is what I was talking about before:

• Help:Tables#Width, height - "Note that style="inline CSS" has no effect with some browsers. If compatibility is important, equivalent older constructs like width="75%" should work on more browsers."

Have you tried width="570" yet? OK, I tried it and it did not work. This works though:

class="wikitable" width="570em" style="font-size:90%; text-align:left;"

See how it looks in Chrome.

Em (typography) has this: "Online, the use of the em measurement has become more common; with the development of Cascading Style Sheets (or CSS), the W3C best practices recommendations within HTML and online markup now call for web pages to be based on scalable designs, using a relative unit of measurement (such as the em measurement), rather than a fixed one such as pixels ("px") or points." --Timeshifter (talk) 05:45, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

I used the em on the end in a preview edit where the width was previously and it didn't work, but since you moved it within the code, it now works. The auto-adjusting problem of Chrome is fixed, but it left it so scrunched up on the country name that the comments are elongated (though it's kind of similar on I.E. and FireFox too).

{| class="wikitable" width="640em" style="font-size:90%; text-align:left;"

|-

!style="background: #e3e3e3;" width="190" |Country or region:

I've made this change though, and it works on I.E., FireFox and Chrome. It doesn't make the table too long length-wise. Is that okay on your end? 67.142.161.20 (talk) 06:02, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

Great! Split the difference? width="150" |Country or region. Leaves more room for notes in the future. People will definitely want to add more notes.

This stuff is a mindwarp. I have experienced much difficulty for years sorting out the interlocking rules, deprecated rules, new rules, browser compatibility, etc.. --Timeshifter (talk) 06:26, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, the split is fine, I almost put it there to begin with. And yeah, it really is. I almost never considered the possibility of someone else using a different browser or a different monitor size under my old account sometimes (much less different coding that could be messing it up) and it used to get me in quite a few debates on Wikipedia under my old name when doing lists. My only issue back then was I would do wholesale changes, and someone didn't like the width, so they would revert it back to how it was. At least we got through it. 67.142.161.20 (talk) 06:32, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

(Unindent). I installed the Google Chrome browser. Going back to pixel widths for each column works better for Firefox and Internet Explorer. I also got rid of the font-size setting of 90%. That only further confuses the browsers, and hurts people trying to read with larger fonts. This below works great for Firefox and Internet Explorer. It works because it is the oldest and simplest method. Pixels have been used for width settings much longer than the other measurements.

{| class="wikitable sortable" style="text-align:left;" 
|-
! <br>
! <br>
! <br>
! <br>
! <br>
! <br>
|-
!width="140px" |Country or region:
!width="40px" |City or district:
!width="40px" |Date protest began:
!width="40px" |Largest number of people:
!width="110px" |References:
!width="220px" |Notes:
|-

But no matter what I do I can not get an overall width setting to work satisfactorily on Google Chrome without then messing up Firefox and Internet Explorer. The best I could do was to use between width="650em" and width="700em". I have been experimenting in a separate sandbox just for the Europe table: User:Timeshifter/Sandbox13 - it saves the page a lot faster since there is less material on the page. --Timeshifter (talk) 19:35, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

font-size:90%

I am not sure this is helping:

style="font-size:90%;"

I believe browsers may interpret this differently. So this may be adding further browser compatibility problems. I am going to remove it for now to simplify things. Also, I do not think it is a good idea to use different size fonts in an article. It makes the article more difficult to read for many people. --Timeshifter (talk) 17:56, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

The 90% did read differently in Internet Explorer when I made the changes for Chrome trying to change the width of the table yesterday, so that change is alright by me. 67.142.161.18 (talk) 19:24, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

You can experiment here too: User:Timeshifter/Sandbox13

I am going to create more sandboxes. --Timeshifter (talk) 19:40, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

More sandboxes

Here are some more sandboxes. Use as you will.

• User:Timeshifter/Sandbox14
• User:Timeshifter/Sandbox15
• User:Timeshifter/Sandbox16
• User:Timeshifter/Sandbox17

If you work on one region only in a sandbox it saves the page a lot faster since there is less material to save. I noticed I was spending a lot of time today waiting for the page to show up in all 3 browsers. Once I started using a sandbox just for Europe things got done a lot faster. --Timeshifter (talk) 19:50, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

Cool, right now I'm trying to single out the one reference error on /Table 2 and it's slow going. Also, the table on the Europe sandbox looks better than the one in the present table. 67.142.161.18 (talk) 20:08, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

I just copied over the table from the sandbox. Keeping the references in alphabetical order by reference name helps find them in order to correct them. I don't know if that is the problem though. --Timeshifter (talk) 20:14, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

According the help page linked in the error, it has to do with a name attribute, which would normally be easy to find without almost 400 references. Going to use one of your sandboxes to slowly find it. 67.142.161.18 (talk) 20:18, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

Found it! A bare url snuck in behind a reference and I never saw it. 67.142.161.18 (talk) 20:46, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

(unindent). More sandboxes:

• User:Timeshifter/Sandbox18
• User:Timeshifter/Sandbox19
• User:Timeshifter/Sandbox20

Please use them in numerical order if possible. --Timeshifter (talk) 22:01, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, I'll start from the beginning at 14 if I use another one. 67.142.161.18 (talk) 23:25, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

User:Timeshifter/Sandbox14

Thoughts? Ignore the large amount of reference error, that is unimportant. I made the extra comments into clickable notes that go to the end of the table and lists what it says. 67.142.161.18 (talk) 23:42, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

The problem is that many people, myself included, do not usually look at the references for Wikipedia articles. I usually am just trying to get the gist of something I am reading. Check this out:

User:Timeshifter/Sandbox13 - I moved the notes down a line by inserting a break <br> --Timeshifter (talk) 00:58, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

The break works with me, so I guess I'll implement it. We can keep the note I made for Puerto Rico I suppose though, since that really isn't part of the protests or anything. It's a simple not to remind people why Puerto Rico is listed under the United States, as an unincorporated territory. Just thought I'd throw the note idea out there. 67.142.161.18 (talk) 01:19, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

Can remove text-align:left

This can be removed:

style="text-align:left;"

It is the default setting for tables, and so is unnecessary. --Timeshifter (talk) 02:44, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

 Done Guess I should introduce myself as well.. — Moe ε 03:05, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

div width

Surrounding the table in a div with a width setting works on all 3 browsers. Check the revision history of User:Timeshifter/Sandbox18. Click on the different widths in the revision history, and look at them in all 3 browsers.

<div style="width:500px;">

<div style="width:690px;">

If you add up the total pixels used by all the columns and put it in the div width the problem is solved, or at least better than before. Do not put the div width wider than the total number of pixels. That causes the columns to expand by varying amounts. It is better to experiment with the individual column widths to see exactly what is happening.

I set the font to a larger setting in each browser before adjusting the individual column widths. That way people like me who prefer larger fonts can see things more clearly. Set the column widths so that there is little or no extra space on each side of the date, the number of people, the widest city name (Copenhagen), or 3 references (that seems to be the max).

This leaves extra room for the notes in the right and left columns, and for future expansion of those columns without wordwrap to 2 lines. --Timeshifter (talk) 03:10, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

Is there a particular version of the past that you prefer? My personal preference would be 690. [1] The current revision at 500px is way too small for Chrome. The country name for Spain at User:Timeshifter/Sandbox18 as of this writing contains 10 lines of text saying it was formed prior to Occupy. http://i42.tinypic.com/9qgv9z.jpg — Moe ε 03:20, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

That 500px width was just a test to see if the div width actually worked on all 3 browsers. I prefer the 690px width too. But I just noticed that when I turned my screen resolution down to 1024 by 768 the table extends too far to the right on Internet Explorer. I normally keep my screen resolution at 1152 by 864 on my 17-inch monitor. --Timeshifter (talk) 03:23, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

 Done Okay, I've implement the 690 width to the main article, seems alright. We can probably keep the rest of the tables the way they are since with isn't much of an issue with them. — Moe ε 03:32, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

Does not work at 1024 by 768

I find no way to specify a total width that works right at 1024 by 768 or smaller screen resolutions in Internet Explorer. All ideas end up with a horizontal scroll bar.

I think the best solution is to specify the widths of all columns except the notes column. Then let the table expand all the way to the right without a horizontal scrollbar. This works at all screen resolutions.

It is the least ugly method I have found. --Timeshifter (talk) 04:44, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

I'm not 100% sure if it matters at all, but what version of Internet Explorer are you running? Is it an older version? I have a 1600 by 900 monitor and Internet Explorer doesn't give me any problems for the current version of the article. I don't keep the size of the browser window open that wide, but expanded that big it doesn't give me any problems. — Moe ε 04:52, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

I have Internet Explorer version 9. Turn your screen resolution down to 1024 width, and the zoom setting of Internet Explorer up to 125%. Then check these sandboxes, and you will see a horizontal scroll bar for the Europe table:

User:Timeshifter/Sandbox13 - Current revision is width="700em".

User:Timeshifter/Sandbox18 - Current revision is width:690px;.

Many laptops, netbooks, tablets, smartphones, 17-inch monitors or smaller, and so on, will have a horizontal scroll bar.

I like this revision of User:Timeshifter/Sandbox15 for the Europe table. I have been using sandbox 15 for continuous testing, and so please be sure to test the revision I linked, instead of what is currently showing on that sandbox page.

That Europe table without a total width works on all browsers at all screen resolutions, font sizes, and zoom settings I have tried. --Timeshifter (talk) 05:42, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

That revision looks like this in Chrome. I can't say it is bad, but the notes don't have to take up 55% of the total page space since the space isn't required (not that much at least). — Moe ε 05:45, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

Using the version you liked, adjusting columns so it doesn't get wonky on my end, what about User:Timeshifter/Sandbox19. The current version of Sandbox 19 extends to 100% on Chrome, but with the widths I have it, it is fine regardless of that. — Moe ε 06:12, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

To be honest, I'm running out of ideas how to remedy this. This whole mess is because Chrome doesn't readily accept extra words being in the country and region name column, so I think having some kind of alternate solution where that part isn't in the cell with the flag and name needs to try and be created. — Moe ε 06:43, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

(unindent) You know what, why not just add the original format, and put some break tags so that it doesn't do it in the first place: User:Timeshifter/Sandbox20. Sandbox 20 is the format for every other table that you started out with, except when you put it in the words, everything on Chrome went to hell. I just added <br> tags and it's fine. I've implemented this change on the main table, it should be fine everywhere it is. D'oh! — Moe ε 07:03, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

That would work. Put some <br> in the cities column too. See 15 October 2011 global protests. That table has no long notes at all. Not having unbroken long notes is the only way to prevent the table from extending all the way to the right in Chrome. Once any width setting is set for even one column then Chrome goes to 100% width mode for the whole table. Removing the long notes from the left column altogether means long notes will have to end up in the notes column. If no width setting is set for the notes column it will have to extend to the right as far as necessary until it bumps up against the right side of the screen. Then it will wrap the text to another line. There are likely to be more and more long notes. So I believe it is better to live with the notes than to delete the notes. Medium-length notes might be given a whole row as an alternate location for notes, but that would become a problem as more and more cities and nations get a row.

I can live with various widths for the columns. For example; your width settings in User:Timeshifter/Sandbox19. We can always adjust the column widths later as needed. --Timeshifter (talk) 07:18, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

How does the current version of User:Timeshifter/Table 2 look? I can't tell if it works all around, but I got the width down to the size of a small monitor in one of your preferred I.E. examples and it works like a charm right now in all three for me. — Moe ε 07:23, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

It looks better. I removed the rest of the widths. See the next talk section. --Timeshifter (talk) 17:09, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

Removed all widths. Used breaks

See this revision of Table 2. It looks good at all screen resolutions, font sizes, and zoom settings. I removed all the widths and used breaks <br> to prevent wide columns.

I put the rest of the photos in galleries. Otherwise, photos on the right cause varying amounts of wordwrap at 1024 screen resolution width or less, larger fonts, and various zoom settings. --Timeshifter (talk) 17:18, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

Cool, looks good to me. :) Only change is I put the galleries at the bottom of the country's respective tables. Reasoning is that people are most likely coming here to look at a list of participating countries first. — Moe ε 20:02, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

Yet more sandboxes

More sandboxes. Please do not experiment with other people's sandboxes once someone starts one. It is too confusing.

• User:Timeshifter/Sandbox21
• User:Timeshifter/Sandbox22
• User:Timeshifter/Sandbox23

Please use them in numerical order. I think Sandbox19 (see link higher up) is currently empty. --Timeshifter (talk) 03:36, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

I think I'm done testing for the most part anyways, but I'll keep that in mind. — Moe ε 04:03, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

Categories

I've "quoted" the categories; draft articles shouldn't appear in mainspace categories. Carry on (and, if you don't remove the quotes when the article goes live, I probably will.) — Arthur Rubin (talk) 17:17, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, I left it as normal because I didn't anticipate the article would take a week to turn into a table, but it has gone on a little longer than expected. — Moe ε 05:19, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Europe and Asia -> Eurasia

I've kept the formatting of the Europe table and put the Asian countries into the Europe table and re-titled the section as Eurasia. Countries like Russia and a couple others currently unlisted are considered both European and Asian. Plus, the number of Asian countries participating wasn't exceptionally large, so a merge isn't too painful. — Moe ε 05:18, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

It looks like there are more entries in the Asia section of List of "Occupy" protest locations. Moscow is the only city listed for Russia. It is in the Europe section. That is correct for Moscow. If some Asian cities show up for Russia we can move Russia to the Asia section there, and leave a note in the Europe section to look in the Asia section for all Russian cities. --Timeshifter (talk) 22:50, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

See also: commons:File:Continents by colour.png --Timeshifter (talk) 00:16, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

I did unsplit the continents, but I am borderline for keeping them together as Eurasia. If Istanbul is situated in Europe and Asia, then there is no side we can keep it on which accurately reflects that unless both are merged. — Moe ε 00:31, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

The rest of Turkey is in Asia. It would look weird to most people to keep it in Europe. I guess by that logic it looks weird to some people to put Russia in Europe. :) But Turkey should be in Asia for sure. I am talking about List of "Occupy" protest locations for now. --Timeshifter (talk) 00:40, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

I did scratch my head when I saw Russia in Europe since a large portion of its land mass is Asian, though Moscow is in the European side. For the article it is fine to me, whichever way. — Moe ε 00:43, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

I just left a note in the Asia section pointing people to the Europe section for Moscow. I guess it could work either way, as long as a note points people to where the info is. --Timeshifter (talk) 01:20, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

Works for me :) — Moe ε 01:22, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

Occupy or Indignados

While I am putting more of the United States references and information into the table, I thought I might go through and start making changes in regards to whether a protest was an Occupy or Indignados event. I planned on putting the name of Occupy protest in the notes section and referencing it if needed, i.e Athens, Greece -> Occupy Athens. Some though, do not use the Occupy name or didn't have any protest where Occupy was a characteristic (like Rome). Cairo, Egypt for example held an indignados protest (see history for reference), and I have a reference where they marched in support of Occupy Oakland, but I don't see an Occupy Cairo protest in a reliable reference like a news article, so I have removed Cairo and other cities where I am unable to reference it like Cairo and made a list below. I also started a list of cities where Occupy groups were created, but no meetings or protests have taken place thus far. This way we can keep tabs on countries and cities that are planning to, or might, do an Occupy protest without having to do extensive searches on Google. — Moe ε 04:28, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

I don't think any October 15 cities should be removed from the list or table. See Talk:List of "Occupy" protest locations‎‎. --Timeshifter (talk) 08:44, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

Okay, I can re-add them, but instead of the groups "Occupy" name, I am going to link the 15 October 2011 protest instead. I'm going to keep and make a list below still though, of groups that have formed but haven't protested yet. — Moe ε 23:17, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

Reference alphabetization tools

It can be difficult to keep hundreds of references alphabetized by reference name. Especially since many text editors are not Unicode, and will mangle some of the characters in some references. I have not found any freeware Unicode text editors that will alphabetize Unicode text. OpenOffice will do it, but it is a huge install. I did find and test a free online tool for alphabetizing Unicode text:

• http://textfixer.com/tools/alphabetize-text-words.php

But for it to work correctly one must first be sure to get rid of line breaks within individual references. Here are a couple unicode freeware text editors that may be able to help join lines within individual references if that is needed:

• AbiWord. See wikipedia page too: AbiWord. Go to the view menu, and then click "show formatting marks". One can then check for line breaks within references, and fix them manually. I don't know if it can be done automatically in this program.
• BabelPad. Not sure how to show formatting marks in this program. There is a "join lines" option in the edit menu. But I don't understand how to use the options that show up in the popup dialog box.

Once that is finished copy and paste the references into the online form here:

• http://textfixer.com/tools/alphabetize-text-words.php

Then click the spot for "Use a line break separator". Uncheck "Remove Punctuation, and Brackets." Then click "alphabetize text". It also removes blank lines. There is no way to get around that. The blank lines can be added back by using the freeware Unicode text editors.

Copy and paste the references from the online results form into a new page in one of the Unicode text editors. Then do a find-and-replace and replace ^p with ^p^p. Oops, it does not work. It works in freeware NoteTab Light, but it is not Unicode. I guess we have to live without blank lines, or try OpenOffice. I haven't tested it much yet. It sorts, but I haven't figured out how to add blank lines.

Copy the references back into the references section of the article (with or without blank lines). More info as I and others figure this out. I think I need to understand this Wikipedia page more: Newline. --Timeshifter (talk) 10:02, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

Hmm, I have OpenOffice already installed, is there something I can try with that? — Moe ε 23:23, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

I did not try saving the references list in the many formats offered by OpenOffice. Maybe one of those formats will allow the addition (all at once) of line breaks and blank lines between paragraphs. I also read something about using regular expressions with some of those formats. I did not delve into it though, so that might be worth checking out too. I wrote this: commons:Commons:Convert tables and charts to wiki code or image files#List of countries by incarceration rate. I don't have any more experience than that though with regular expressions. --Timeshifter (talk) 02:37, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

I only found a couple mistakes in the reference list alphabetically: diff. I used an alphabetical sort tool I found online. Like you said, the spaces were removed and some of the code was messed up, adding these random \ marks into the code, so I kept another window open of the references how they were in wikicode to copy/paste the correct code back in, because the program still put them in correct alphabetical order. They also sorted references without quotations to the top of the list, so I found and fixed those errors in the diff I linked too. — Moe ε 04:58, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

I used to not add quotes around the reference names without spaces, but now I do, because of the better alphabetization by automatic tools. --Timeshifter (talk) 07:46, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

Progress

I don't see much progress being made by myself with this due to there going to be varying accounts of dates and the largest number of protesters I am finding with references. I am going to start removing those categories for now. As it stands, outside any protests started on October 15, the dates could be accurate or inaccurate. Some dates we can't find because we can't find the first protest. Same problem with the number of protesters. Number of protesters also faces a problem because we have to change it anytime a larger crowd shows up. I think the important thing to be added is the formatting itself and reliable references to a protest being held, rather than the date and number of protesters, specifically. — Moe ε 09:03, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

Also, a new problem arose with the creation of List of Occupy movement protest locations in the United States and the table format, that being the references. If the table is going to be put on the main article, then the old reference format has to say, otherwise, some 300 reference errors will appear on the new article. It pretty much just made the whole format we just attempted to be obsolete, so I am just going to keep turning this into a simple table, with just the information on the main article in the same reference format, because there is so many problems with this whole article. In addition to all that, the new users won't be able to know how to add references without them being within the table. We can fix and replace references later with more reliable ones and possibly change the format later once the format is put in the main article. — Moe ε 10:35, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

If tables are to be usable they have to have the references at the bottom of the page. Otherwise they are almost impossible to update easily. As for crowd sizes, we only put numbers where we have references. We can change the header to something like "Some crowd size estimates". That way we don't make claims we can't be sure of. We can't really know what was the largest crowd size since it may not have been covered by a reliable source.

If you want to use the old format for references it should be used on a different user page not this one. Otherwise people coming to this page will be confused. There is no need to separate out the USA cities.

Moving old format to User:Timeshifter/Sandbox22. --Timeshifter (talk) 11:08, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

Note List of Occupy movement protest locations in the United States wasn't separated by myself, it acts as a template for the main article to make the article size smaller. — Moe ε 11:12, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

I saw that, and I did not think it was a good idea. But it is not a problem if this table version is never finished. And a table version is just impossible to maintain well in the old format. The table at 15 October 2011 global protests looks great, is easy to maintain, and puts the references at the bottom.

I created some more sandboxes:

User:Timeshifter/Sandbox24

User:Timeshifter/Sandbox25

User:Timeshifter/Sandbox26 --Timeshifter (talk) 11:25, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

I can try and keep the references at the bottom of the article and keep filling in the table over at Sandbox22, but I won't be adding the dates and number of protesters back to that one. Maintaining that is near impossible with new references popping up. We just need a reference that a protest is there with a reliable reference. — Moe ε 11:27, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

I had a feeling that the table format might be impossible to implement when this started. Or at least not in a timely way. If we remove the numbers and start dates, then the tables actually have less info than the current list format.

Maybe we could implement the table one region at a time, and move it into the article one region at a time. That might be doable. The problem though is alphabetizing the references as new regions are converted to the table format. I haven't studied OpenOffice more to see if it can be done, and end up with blank lines between references. It can be done though without the blank lines for now. That would work fine for now. We can figure out the blank lines later. --Timeshifter (talk) 11:36, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, we could do that, and I can put the references in alphabetical order fairly quick, its just searching for the start dates and number of protesters being so tedious. I'm removing the names of the unnotable protest names like Occupy South Africa. I don't want to encourage a ton of articles being created. — Moe ε 11:43, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

If there is a Wikipedia article it should be listed. If it is not notable it will be deleted, and will show up as a redlink. Those are easy to remove later.

It is not necessary to fill in all the start dates, and number of protesters. Let others do it. --Timeshifter (talk) 11:51, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

Yeah if it had an article I kept it. And, I found out the problem with the references being at the bottom. All that would need to be done, is a seperate list of references for the U.S. would have to be at the bottom of List of Occupy movement protest locations in the United States while List of Occupy movement protest locations would have the whole list, and it would work with includeonly wikitags. I can integrate the other regions outside the U.S. right now if I wanted to. I can finish the reference formatting for the U.S. today if I don't fill in the dates and protesters. — Moe ε 11:58, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

Eurasia needs to be split up into Europe and Asia. If you can figure out a way to incorporate the tables into the article, more power to you. I just do not want to lose any referenced info. Good luck. :) --Timeshifter (talk) 12:03, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

I can do that. Just have to add some referenced information from the main article from the past couple days to some of the European and Asian cities. It will be a few minutes. And thanks, — Moe ε 12:09, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

There's going to be a slight delay. I'll have to finish the U.S. table first. The table for the U.S. references won't show up without a reflist on the main article, so the U.S. will have to be done before moving regions over. — Moe ε 13:18, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

List of Occupy movement protest locations in the United States

It may be a good idea to completely separate List of Occupy movement protest locations in the United States from List of Occupy movement protest locations. I notice that it takes a very long time to preview or save the complete page if it also includes the USA section.

The normal method for spinoff articles is to link to them. I don't think it is very common to transclude spinoff articles.

It would make it a lot easier to move to tables if they are completely separate articles.

Also, I am not sure it is a good idea to use flag icons. It leaves less space for notes, and causes more wrapping to 2 lines. I see that you are working on the USA table here: User:Timeshifter/Sandbox23. --Timeshifter (talk) 14:03, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, there is a major problem with the references. I am showing Sandbox23 as the U.S. article just for a test just like the main articles, and I can't get references from the Sandbox to work on this article. A repeated reference from the Sandbox on this article breaks the reflist template. — Moe ε 14:08, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

Or maybe I broke the template. I copy and pasted all the references back into the references section like they were before I moved them, and the template broke. I re-added a single reference and it worked. I'll be testing around. — Moe ε 14:13, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

I suggest removing all the USA references from User:Timeshifter/Table 2. --Timeshifter (talk) 14:51, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, the only way this will work is if the reference lists are separate. It won't combine right. There's something wrong, like a limit or something. It can just link from the main article. — Moe ε 15:10, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

(unindent). When I did the test and removed the transcluded page I saw that all the red references at the bottom were for the USA. See:

• http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Timeshifter/Table_2&oldid=460294267

Here is an example of one of the red references:

Cite error: <ref> tag with name "Worcester2" defined in <references> is not used in prior text; see the help page.

I looked at the wikitext and found this:

<ref name="Worcester2">{{cite web|url=http://www.telegram.com/article/20111011/NEWS/110119473/-1/NEWS07 |title=Occupy Worcester looks homeward |author=Lee, Brian |publisher=telegram.com |date=2011-10-11 |accessdate=2011-10-27}}</ref>

Those red references can be removed from User:Timeshifter/Table 2. They belong on User:Timeshifter/Sandbox23. There is no need to combine the two pages via transclusion. It just makes for a very slow combined page. --Timeshifter (talk) 15:16, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

I know, I was trying to replicate the references combining on the main article, and that is only workable because they use the citations inside the table. — Moe ε 15:30, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

It would probably be faster to start converting the main page to tables, and saving List of Occupy movement protest locations in the United States for last since it has the bulk of the references. You could convert the main page region by region. But that would require putting up with a lot of red references for awhile, if you paste all the references in at once, but not all the tables. --Timeshifter (talk) 15:37, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

I would hold on to converting the main page to tables just until I finish the U.S. table, I would want them done at relatively the same time. — Moe ε 15:49, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

I don't have the time or energy. It might be easier on you though because if you do the main page earlier then you wouldn't have to integrate more and more edits by others. They could integrate changes themselves directly into the tables. That allows you more time to work on the USA table. --Timeshifter (talk) 15:53, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

Oh, I see what you mean. It's fine, if I leave the blanks on the USA table, I'll be done in a bit actually, so barring a hoard of edits suddenly to those pages, I'll be done soon. :) — Moe ε 15:57, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

Wasn't quite able to finish today. I spent a good majority of the day working on it and I still couldn't finish it off. Still about 10 states left, so once I wake up, I'll finish it and have it up as the real thing. — Moe ε 00:31, 13 November 2011 (UTC)