LebaneseBebe

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Welcome!

Please feel free to leave comments and helpful suggestions here! LebaneseBebe (talk) 02:47, 15 February 2018 (UTC)

Hello, LebaneseBebe, and Welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions to this free encyclopedia. If you decide that you need help, check out Getting Help below, ask me on my talk page, or place {{Help me}} on your talk page and ask your question there. Please remember to sign your name on talk pages by using four tildes (~~~~) or by clicking if shown; this will automatically produce your username and the date. Also, please do your best to always fill in the edit summary field with your edits. Below are some useful links to facilitate your involvement. Happy editing! Ronz (talk) 16:08, 8 March 2018 (UTC) Getting started A tutorial • Our five pillars • Getting mentored How to: Edit a page • Upload and use images • Create your first article Intuitive guide to Wikipedia • Article Creation Wizard Getting help Frequently asked questions • Tips Where to ask questions or make comments Request administrator attention Help desk: A Wiki Styled page to ask questions on Help directory: A comprehensive list-style help contents page Policies and guidelines Neutral point of view • No original research Verifiability • Reliable sources • Citing sources What Wikipedia is not • Biographies of living persons List of policies • Three-revert rule • Sock puppetry Copyrights • Policy for non-free content • Image use policy External links • Spam • Vandalism • List of guidelines Deletion policy • Conflict of interest • Notability The community Build consensus • Resolve disputes Assume good faith • Civility • Etiquette No personal attacks • No legal threats Community portal • Village pump Signpost • IRC channels • Mailing lists Writing articles Be bold in editing • Develop an article The perfect article • Simplified manual of style Stubs • Categories • Disambiguation Peer review • Featured content Miscellaneous User pages • Talk pages Awards a registered contributor can achieve and award Clean up: General • Spam • Vandalism Join a WikiProject • Translation Useful templates • Tools • User scripts

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Barbat

If you are going to say the oud derives from the barbat, place a source. The source you posted actually contradicts your own statement. Thanks

I'm simply assuming that the referencing is proper. If it isn't, fix the articles with what the references say, or add better references and use what they say.

Please refrain from tying your edits to cultural disputes or accusations of bias in others. The solution to content problems is to make sure content is properly verified by high-quality references. Adding content that's apparently unsupported by any source is considered original research, which is not allowed on Wikipedia.

If you believe there other biases at play, please seek help in getting those problems addressed. Trying to take them on yourself will at best be a frustrating waste of your time. --Ronz (talk) 21:30, 8 March 2018 (UTC)

Just saw this, okay thanks! LebaneseBebe (talk)

My question is this, so my edits are undone (when I delete unverified statements), however I am expected to fix unverified statements that I did not make, by adding sources. While the statements I make are deleted for lacking sources. How does that make sense? Who picks and chooses which unverified statements remain? That in itself is bias. And to discuss unpopular theories as mainstream or widely held, is at best, subjective, misleading, and inaccurate. LebaneseBebe (talk) 21:47, 11 March 2018 (UTC)

Hello

I just saw that you have been editing the Oud and Lute articles. I am interested in these and their relatives. It appears that you speak or are familiar with Arabic, and I am hopeful that you will find sources that are unavailable in English. I particularly liked that you were willing to address theories as being such. I think it is useful for readers to see that there are competing theories. WelcomeJacqke (talk) 00:51, 11 March 2018 (UTC)

- Hello Jacqke! Yes I have been active on the Oud and Lute articles. I am also interested in them and their relatives. After much reading it cannot be clearly verified where the lute originated, or even if the lute originated in one particular place. We have it on record that cavemen used lutes, and other musical instruments (really fascinating). And to attempt to say the oud derives from the barbat is very inaccurate and subjective. One simply needs to look at forest areas in the Middle East (Lebanon- has the largest in the Middle East, Syria, and even parts of southern Arabia), North Africa, and India to realize that all of those places would have had their own lute instruments. I firmly believe that theories are theories, and that unpopular theories, are subject to even more ridicule, and at the very least it should be made clear that unpopular theories, are simply unpopular theories. Otherwise, we are misleading readers and promoting disinformation, lack of critical thinking, intellectualism, and objectivity. If I wanted to be biased I could say that the barbat was influenced by pre Islamic Arabian lutes made with animal skin, I could make that jump and I could find sources to verify what I am saying. But at the end of the day, these are simply theories.

Thank you very much for your message! I too, think it is extremely important for readers to see that there are competing theories. And yes, I do speak Arabic fluently, I also understand Aramaic, and I am very familiar with the Phoenician dictionary. I wasn't sure if we could use non-English sources for English language articles. :) LebaneseBebe (talk) 21:56, 11 March 2018 (UTC)

Hi again, I have been one of those putting up the theories of origins. It is a reason I'm interested in what you have to say. I want to add the competing views to make the articles more complete. I've noted a western perspective in most of my sources, and have been interested in the research from central Asia which is almost unavailable in English. Other sources, as you have mentioned, are from Iran. As a westerner, I tend to be a little fuzzy with the distinctions important to those in the Middle East, and I am working to fix this ignorance in myself.

I am very interested in the relationship between the barbat / oud / Chinese pipa / western lute. I'm convinced we don't know everything, and maybe not anything really definitive. For Wikipedia,I have endeavored to show what is currently believed academically--this is very incomplete and other perspectives/ theories (with sources) are needed.

I do frequently use other language sources in some of my articles, translating the particularly important quotes to include in the references. Unfortunately my Arabic is extremely limited, and Google does not translate it well.

I'm open to talk about ideas for the article. You are, of course free to edit on your own. But if you want to collaborate, I have a fair instinct for balancing different points of view in a neutral way. Sincerely, Jacqke (talk) 16:02, 12 March 2018 (UTC)

Hello again, I am working at addressing your criticisms of content and sourcing around the origins of the barbat and oud. I intend to rewrite sections to resemble the work I did on the article Citole and Cythara, in which I laid out the different theories separately and who they came from. It will take a while, but I will welcome any ideas for improvement.

If you wouldn't mind, would you please give me an opinion on this article? http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/barbat I am interested in knowing if any of the non-western sources it cites are considered unreliable. This article may considered a source of much to which you have objected, but it also has been incompletely used, as it supports what you wrote above:

"One simply needs to look at forest areas in the Middle East (Lebanon- has the largest in the Middle East, Syria, and even parts of southern Arabia), North Africa, and India to realize that all of those places would have had their own lute instruments"

There isn't a huge hurry, as it will take me a while to track down sources.Jacqke (talk) 18:31, 24 March 2018 (UTC)

Jacqke I have an issue with Iranica because it is obviously an Iranian encyclopedia and there is a lot of confirmation bias going on there.

Jacqke The barbat and oud are two separate instruments, and don't have to be relaed. Cavemen had lutes. It is all a bit overreaching and any attempt to link the two will be opposed by me with facts. LebaneseBebe (talk) 20:49, 24 March 2018 (UTC)

@Jacqke: I would like to start a new wikiproject Please let me know if you are interested. Looking for members. LebaneseBebe (talk) 22:13, 24 March 2018 (UTC)

I would consider submitting articles to another Wiki. Also, I don't know if you are still going to edit here or not, but I am taking your opposition to linking barbat and oud seriously. Since we texted here last, I have been looking for sources to show the path in which people saw the two as linked, to make it clear where that idea came from. I know you feel strongly that the two shouldn't be linked. Could you look for sources that show who supports that idea? Sincerely, Jacqke (talk) 16:35, 1 April 2018 (UTC)

Jacqke hi, I’ll respond more later but I can simply say that both instruments have different bodies, sizes and shapes. If we are going to link the oud and barbat then we should link the modern guitar as well.

I was happy to see you respond. Too many have left Wikipedia after first encounters with its editing culture. I look forward to your ideas.

The more I look at the barbat and oud, the more I think that both instruments need a great deal added about historical types, styles shapes of variants, etc. That should make it clear how they might be related, but also how they are separate unique instruments.

As to the guitar-- yes. There is a line of research that considers it a descendant of the oud (or possibly the Andalusian variant called quitra/kwitra).Jacqke (talk) 14:05, 5 April 2018 (UTC)

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MatthewVanitas (talk) 03:38, 24 March 2018 (UTC)

Please use Reftag to fix citations in Mlikh

Hello, please note you can take your "bare URLs" to GoogleBooks and plug them into http://reftag.appspot.com to instantly turn them into full Wikipedia footnotes. Please do so to tidy up your article; nice work! MatthewVanitas (talk) 03:39, 24 March 2018 (UTC)

@MatthewVanitas:, thank you! Will do, very helpful. LebaneseBebe (talk) 03:49, 24 March 2018 (UTC)

Some advice

First, I didn't care about the order of countries (I've got no affiliation with any of them but I do like Lebanese food, but when someone with a nation's name in their username comes along and puts their nation first without explanation, don't be surprised to get reverted.

Secondly, that was definitely a personal attack and one of the things that got you blocked. I've been an Administrator for a long time and an elected member of the Arbitration Committee, which deals with conduct, not content, for 3 years, so I know how we define personal attacks. Do that again you'll almost certainly get blocked, and depending on the Administrator, you might get blocked permanently. Don't think that if you are you can get away with editing through IP addresses or a new account easily, those can be checked. Be polite and listen to others, try to get agreement and you'll get on. Doug Weller talk 17:59, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

talk why are you still thinking about me? And I explained the change in regards to the coast line which makes sense grammatically. Not going to sit at the back of the bus. LebaneseBebe (talk) 17:35, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

Just trying to help you not get blocked. I replied on my talk page accepting that the reason you gave for your change was reasonable. Although your reason wasn't about grammar. Your comment above about sitting in the back of the bus is disappointing, particularly as a reply as someone who marched with Martin Luther King. Doug Weller talk 05:27, 29 March 2018 (UTC)

Disambiguation link notification for March 27

An automated process has detected that when you recently edited Phoenicia, you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page Canaanite (check to confirm | fix with Dab solver).

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Aladdin (the story)

While the consensus is that Galland very probably did derive his version of the story from a genuine Middle-Eastern folk tale - this was from his own text from the oral retelling of a Syrian story teller - whether through the basic medium of the Syrian's French or Galland's Arabic we don't know - they were both bilingual, so they may have even been switching from one language to the other, as bilingual people in conversation will. ANYWAY the fact remains (as we discuss in the "sources" section of the article, that the "original" text is Galland's French, we just don't have an authentic Arabic text for it all all (nor, incidentally, one in any other Eastern language!) Now, "One of the cities of China" is exactly what Galland says in the original French. Hence the reversion of your last edit. "Aladdin" (the name) does mean "nobility of faith", of course - and if you're set on putting that back in I wouldn't (personally) object - although its relevance to a fairy story that we essentially know through a French version is VERY marginal, really. Best wishes, anyway. --Soundofmusicals (talk) 08:01, 14 October 2018 (UTC)

@Soundofmusicals: thank you for your response, quite informative.

No worries - felt I owed you an explanation after reverting what was obviously a good faith edit. --Soundofmusicals (talk) 22:53, 14 October 2018 (UTC)

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Levantine Arabic FAC

Hi LebaneseBebe, I nominated Levantine Arabic for FAC. As you speak Lebanese, I thought you could be interested in reviewing it. Thanks for any help you can provide. A455bcd9 (talk) 14:37, 27 March 2022 (UTC)