JEissfeldt (WMF)

• German
• Spanish

VE + ULS Devanagari issues

Summary

This summary represents bug statuses as per the users reporting/testing them, not per their status in bugzilla.

• Current issues: T53846 • T55700 • T55701 • T55705 • T55706 • T55717 • T55754 • T55757 • T55758 • T55788 • T56331 • T56334 • T56421 • T56424
• Partially fixed issues: T55708 • T55711
• Fixed issues: T53847

Discussion

Hi,

With reference to bug no 49569. From my todays test edits at mr wiki, it seems some efforts have taken place to initiate/enable ULS unicode Devnagari Script input in VE edits.But for practical usage,even for primary begining, it seems to have too many issues yet.Before informing the issues do we wait untill we are officially informed from your side or do we start reporting issues ?

I suppose till now there is no separate bug to track "VE+ULS unicode Marathi language Devnagari script issues". Would you prefer to start a separate bug for tracking or you expect us to join with some existing bug reports for related issues.

Thanks and regards

Mahitgar (talk) 05:31, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Pinging @User:PEarley (WMF) about the best way to handle this, which I suspect should be splitting the two kind of issues since different teams would take care of them. Regards, --Elitre (WMF) (talk) 09:20, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Hey Mahitgar, Elitre. As VE will not be usable on wikis where ULS isn't integrating properly, I'd be filing this as a VE bug, and as a "blocker" to Marathi deployment depending on severity. It is fine to file as a separate bug - if the devs discover it is linked to another reported issue already assigned, they can merge the reports. Mahitgar, can you give us a more detailed report about the specific issues you are noticing on mr.wiki, as well as the browser and operating system of your computer? With that, we can submit a actionable bug report, and work to get this fixed before any rollout to Marathi. Can't offer much insight to this particular script - I haven't been working with the Indic languages - Jan and his team are working on this. User:JEissfeldt (WMF) - tag, you're it! PEarley (WMF) (talk) 16:33, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Mahitgar, you might also want to know that the bug related to vowels for that language has been fixed in the meantime. --Elitre (WMF) (talk) 18:13, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, I have the CIS in Bangalore putting together a file on critical bugs for Indian language versions for this product since yesterday and will expand it as necessary. This looks like a solid candidate to me, regards --Jan (WMF) (talk) 18:00, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for all above replies.I will study and list problems for Marathi language VE+ULS environment here in a tabular form over couple of days

Number	Name of page where probleme arose	Screen shot or Difference of edit if available	Problem description	additional details	ULS Method of input	Browers and OS	Bug/status
1	mr:धूळपाटी(sandbox page)	Cannot create the screen shot/or edit diff	No other text on a page> Type a word + space bar = eliminates typed text imidiately	If some text is already there on the page or we copy paste then we can give the space bar with less frequency of this problem.	VE+ULS Method of input = अक्षरांतरण (Non-VE source edit environ,ULS Method of input = अक्षरांतरण works normal. Also applicable for VE + ULS (hi transliteration)	Firefox+Win7, Google chrome+Win7	Tracked in Phabricator Task T55700 and Tracked in Phabricator Task T55706
2	mr:धूळपाटी(sandbox page)	VEplusULSinput Akshrantaran issues 2 with normal speed typing cursor moves to left it is supposed to move to right direction	In normal speed typing,after we type first alphaabate cursor moves from right to left direction.Word marathi need to apear मराठी with VE+ULS instead is coming राठीम	Marathi language devanagari is written in left to right direction.But when we use ULS Method of input = अक्षरांतरण with VE cursor is moving in opposite direction as if we are typing a right to left script	VE+ULS Method of input = अक्षरांतरण (Non-VE source edit environ,ULS Method of input = अक्षरांतरण works normal	Firefox+Win7	Tracked in Phabricator Task T55701
3	mr:धूळपाटी(sandbox page)	VEplusULSinput Akshrantaran issues-Uncalled for repetition of charecters	Uncalled for repetition of charecters please see the file image	After this problem some time backspace, delete keys and left and right arrow keys of the key board work some times, do not work many times	VE+ULS Method of input = अक्षरांतरण (Non-VE source edit environ,ULS Method of input = अक्षरांतरण works normal (Key unresponsiveness also applicable for VE+ULS hi transliteration)	Firefox+Win7	keys not working: Tracked in Phabricator Task T55708
4	mr:अभिमन्यु and all other articles with text already present	Screen shot or diff Not possible without video recording itself of VE's moving self action	spell correction of any word eats up text on right side until you press space bar	उदाहरण	VE+ULS Method of input = अक्षरांतरण (Non-VE source edit environ,ULS Method of input = अक्षरांतरण works normal	Firefox+Win7	Tracked in Phabricator Task T55757
5	Any random selected article on mr-wikipedia	Wont be difficult to provide screen shots , Still need more usage pattern observation before providing screenshots to provide steps to reproduce	Where text is already present,Along with any of above problems, Some times edited aspect is shown in edit window but does not reflect in edit preview	Probably problem arises when we insert any additional charecters or word between two existing words in a sentence.I suppose this would be easy to reproduce.	VE+ULS Method of input = अक्षरांतरण (Non-VE source edit environ,ULS Method of input = अक्षरांतरण works normal	Firefox+Win7	Tracked in Phabricator Task T55758
6	Any random selected article on mr-wikipedia	Image to be provided	If for spelling correction purposes only few charecters within any word are selected and replaced with other charecter of same or lesser length, without movement of arrow keys or spacebar, save button does not get enabled, so effectively we would not be able to save the change	Behaviour seems to be indirectly related to above point 5 testing for the same going on			Tracked in Phabricator Task T55788
7	all articles	Do we need image for this	need enabling ULS input in Link,Reference,Category and template edit-windows	उदाहरण			Tracked in Phabricator Task T55717

Following most required marathi language typing pattern produces marathi sentense as given below in ULS input अक्षरांतरण (transliteration) using roman engilsh "qwerty" key board in traditional wikisource editing; The target for VisualEditor team is the same to happen smoothly for VisualEditor+ ULS input अक्षरांतरण (transliteration) environment.

most required marathi language typing pattern example

namaskaara teMDUlkara marAthee Ahe.mahaaraaShTra aaNi akhkhyaa pRthveechaa pravaasa Jnaaneshvarane KShaNaardhaat kelA paheeje. rrya aaNi rrha akSharaMbaddal saMdarbha sahit nibaMdha have.

should transliterate ( produce) to following in smooth manner.

नमस्कार तेंडूलकर मराठी आहे. महाराष्ट्र आणि अख्ख्या पृथ्वीचा प्रवास ज्ञानेश्वरने क्षणार्धात केला पाहीजे.ऱ्य आणि ऱ्ह अक्षरांबद्दल संदर्भ सहित निबंध हवे.

Bugs to watch

• 51472

Mahitgar (talk) 09:51, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

Hi, I emailed Jan to draw his attention to this. Thanks, --Elitre (WMF) (talk) 10:37, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

Thanks look forwards to - Mahitgar (talk) 11:00, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

Thank you, Mahitgar. This is really helpful and will be a core part of the set of issues I will take to the office during a visit mid September. I feel the relation between VE and ULS will stay with us longer than the format of this feedback page permits. Therefore, I suggest to move the topic to my talk page; where I'm automatically notified in case you expand your findings there and we don't have to rely on Elitre for pings - although she does an excellent job in keeping the issue high up my radar :). Beyond Mr.WP itself, I'm also perfectly prepared to take on board issues you find on Hi.WP or generally VE bugs across Indian language projects you see as critical and feel they should be highlighted by me. Best regards, --Jan (WMF) (talk) 15:45, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for very positive response.Your suggession is most welcome I will place this discussion on your talk page and add further aspects there.Besides mr I can certainly bring in info on hi sa and ne wiki over coming week.

Regards

Mahitgar (talk) 16:00, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

Added bugs I reported today. Another devanagari bug (not described above) is 53711.--Siddhartha Ghai (talk) 17:25, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

@Siddhartha Ghai Thanks for nice support in reporting the bugs. I wish and request to have a look at bug 53754(not in above list) and please do check for hindi language too.

Thanks Regards

Mahitgar (talk) 02:56, 5 September 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk • contribs)

@Mahitgar:: Commented on the bug.

@JEissfeldt (WMF):: bug 53754 (based on 51472) is also an important one.--Siddhartha Ghai (talk) 20:24, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

Added summary to top of this discussion for handy reference.--Siddhartha Ghai (talk) 20:52, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

Thank you, @Siddhartha Ghai:; I'm already busy going over parts of them :)

Mahitgar: I arranged for a meeting with Runa from the ULS team mid next week and, of course, welcome your views not just on where problems are located but also how important/urgent you feel they are respectively. Regarding your homewiki and beyond, of course :). Thank you both for invaluable help. Best regards, --Jan (WMF) (talk) 21:01, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

Thanks , will keep you updated as suggested by your goodselves.

Rgds- Mahitgar (talk) 14:38, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

Hello, a quick note from my end. The Visual Editor and Language Engineering teams have been working together to find a solution for the problems that are being faced while typing not just Devanagari, but for most other non-Latin scripts. The tracker bug for all the issues that have been surfaced so far is: 33077. Besides the problems arising from native keyboards (i.e. available through the user's devices) this list also includes problems seen while typing using the Input Methods provided through Universal Language Selector (using jQuery.ime). At this point, the inherent complexities of the systems are posing a problem in finding an easy solution to resolve them and more tests are being planned. Hope this helps. Please feel to reach out to me also either through my talk page or over email (runa at wikimedia dot org). --Runab WMF (talk) 09:01, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

update bug 53700 and 53705 problem

Hi, Yesterday and today I tried problems in bug no 53700 and 53705 for Marathi besides more left to right indic languages namely Hindi,Ahirani,Konkni,Bangla, etc this problem seems to exist across the languages.

This is just to keep you informed rgdsMahitgar (talk) 08:46, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

Thank you, @Mahitgar:. Let me talk you, @Siddhartha Ghai:, and @Karthikndr: through a bit of progress I made during my week in the office in connecting you and WMF Tech better: I would be grateful, if you continue to test things out and file bugs directly in bugzilla while keeping me in the loop here. I note stuff you feel is important both in my weekly VE reports going to their team and in a newly set up biweekly call with Runa of ULS. Both teams, VE and ULS, are working together to get on top of this but it seems to take quite some time to solve the problem and especially VE has other big issues to fix as well (it is still blacklisted for Internet Explorer for a start). Thanks and best regards, --Jan (WMF) (talk) 11:19, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

Quick update: A handful of the IME-related bugs are supposed to get fixed in about 48 hours. I believe that's 48 hours until they're posted at Mediawiki, which means the following Thursday for the Wikipedias. And we don't know exactly which ones will be fixed then. But I wanted to let you know that they are making some progress on it. Thanks again for all your work. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 20:46, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

Hi,Usually I compare software development tasks with road development and maintenance.As a user, reporting instances of pot holes and inconviniences is our small effort to support you constructively,and it is for benefit of our own projects.You are better placed to define and decide where to fix a pot hole first,or it is better to construct a new road or whether our demands are technically feasible or not;you know the sprectrum better.I belive in technical people and understand tasks at your hand; and will support you positively.Thanks rgds

Mahitgar (talk) 07:51, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

@JEissfeldt (WMF):, @Whatamidoing (WMF):, @Mahitgar:: Hello, I reviewed the bugs today. The gerrit patch r82858 fixed one issue completely and 3 others partially. Some issues that the patch should have fixed remain unaffected by it while other issues that the patch may have fixed need to be tested (by Mahitgar, since I don't fully understand those issues). There are also issues that weren't covered in the patch at all, and hence remain to be fixed. I've commented on the bugs where possible and have updated the summary above.

Whatamidoing (WMF), do you mean to say there's another gerrit patch soon to go live on mediawiki, or were you referring to this one?--Siddhartha Ghai (talk) 16:03, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

I don't know. The information I was given did not include any bug or patch numbers. It was just a report in a meeting that the next upgrade would fix a number of IME-related bugs. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 17:17, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

>>while other issues that the patch may have fixed need to be tested (by Mahitgar,<< @Siddhartha Ghai,

• I did first round of testing for bugs filed by me. Bug 53758 and Bug 53788 seems to have fixed but will need one more round of test to confirm so.
• There seems to be minor behavioural change (but problems are still there) in couple of bugs it will take few more test and bit more time before I can report exact change of behaviour.

Rgds Mahitgar (talk) 07:26, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

bug no 53757 and Bug No.53701

@Siddhartha Ghai,

Hi, it seems some work has taken place on bug no 53757 and Bug No.53701 and it has been requested to test it at http://en.wikipedia.beta.wmflabs.org/ but fire fox did not open that website for me ,firefox says the link is unreliable. May be you can help in testing these bugs and also guide me also.

Thanks and regards

Mahitgar (talk) 02:29, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

ULS support still missing for VE at mr-wikipedia

@User:JEissfeldt (WMF) @Siddhartha Ghai,

Hi, Seasons greetings !

After several months I checked mr-wikipedia by enabling VE; but could not access ULS in article editing with VE ; ULS was working in search field. (So after testing I disaled VE again)

Any way any hopes or chances of any good news on these fronts ?

Regards

Mahitgar (talk) 11:17, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, I read Whatamidoing (WMF) communication bellow later, So its OK, May be a year or two more. Effectivelly, We will be missing VE till then  :(

Mahitgar (talk) 11:22, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

es:VE poll

Hi. Poll has finish. How we follow from here? Cheers. Ganímedes (talk) 23:16, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

Moin, Ganímedes. I already summed up the numbers for the relevant people on Sunday and tabled the question for the next interdepartmental meeting with James Forrester. Once I get a reply (unlikely before Veterans Day passes), I will update Es.WP locally as usually, Regards --Jan (WMF) (talk) 04:33, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

VisialEditor in Frisian

Dear JEissfeldt,

You posted a message on my talk page requesting me to translate this (this note on interface changes) block of text into Frisian. I'm afraid I'm going to have to respectfully decline. First of all, I'm not sure why you asked me, but I'm just a user, not an administrator, and I've no intention of becoming one. Second, the Frisian Wikipedia is a very small Wikipedia community and frankly it isn't worth the amount of time and energy it takes to translate these things, when most users are fluent enough in English to understand the English language version. (Perhaps in the future you could add a link to a Dutch translation; that might by useful to some Frisian users.) Also, and this is purely a personal thing concerning this VisualEditor, I cannot understand why people keep fiddling with things when they work just fine the way they are. Anyway, I thought the decent thing to do was give you an explanation for my non-compliance with your request, so here you are. I hope there are no hard feelings. I wish you Frohe Weihnachten und ein glückliches neues Jahr (or as we say in Frisian: noflike krystdagen en in lokkich nijjier). Ieneach fan 'e Esk (talk) 17:02, 20 December 2013 (UTC)

ULS disabled by default

@JEissfeldt (WMF) and Runab WMF:: Hello. ULS has been disabled by default for about 25 days now since this announcement: mw:Universal_Language_Selector/Announcement_Jan2014. I have some questions:

• When can we expect it to be back?
• Does this have anything to do with enabling it in VE?
• I can see from messages at translatewiki.net that enabling the ULS IMEs in VE is planned as a beta feature. When will this be availaible and if this planned beta feature has anything to do with the current disabling.

Thanks.--Siddhartha Ghai (talk) 11:53, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

Hi Siddhartha Ghai,

With some luck, ULS may be back in a few days. The problems have nothing to do with VisualEditor.

Using the IMEs in VisualEditor is very complex. My guess is that late in 2014 is possible, assuming that they get ULS back in good health first. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 18:25, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

Input regarding diacritics in usernames

It has been suggested at WP:AN#Username gymnastics that I should forgo the diacritics in my username. Is this consistent with the missions of the foundation, to disregard the cultural heritage of long-term Wikipedia editors, so that things are made more "convenient" for bureaucrats? I, for one, am astonished that WP administrators would even entertain such a suggestion, let alone that there would appear to be considerable support for the idea. Sławomir Biały (talk) 14:38, 28 December 2014 (UTC)

Thanks Sławomir Biały/Slawekb; coming out of the holidays, I finally looked at your issue. The foundation builds software and distributes a modification of it on this wiki hosted by it that does not technically deny you the ability to use diacritics. The local administration of the self-governing volunteer community running this wiki, however, is entitled to come up with its own set of reasonable rules to run its own affairs as seen fit. WMF policy, as it stands, doesn't come into it. Best regards, --Jan (WMF) (talk) 13:14, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

Übersetzung für Hauptseite

Hallo Jan, es sieht aus, dass Wikipedia auf der Hauptseite eine Liste für andere Projekte hinzugefügt haben. Bei der mongolischer Hauptseite wurde nicht übersetzt, wenn du zugreifen kannst, bitte mit der übersetzung tauschen:

• Other projects - Бусад төслүүд
• Wikimedia Commons - Викимедиа агуулаx
• Meta-Wiki - Мета-Вики
• Wikispecies - Вики зүйл
• Wikidata - Вики мэдээлэл

Grüß Munkhzaya.E (talk) 08:15, 29 February 2016 (UTC)

Moin Munkhzaya.E, das Ding sieht mir mehr nach zentral ueber den Server laufend aus (im Gegensatz zu der MediaWiki-Sache, die wir beide letztes Mal gefixt haben). Ich frag mal die Technik um Rat :) Gruss und Dank, --Jan (WMF) (talk) 15:53, 1 March 2016 (UTC)

Hello Munkhzaya.E: thank you so much for volunteering to translate interface messages into Mongolian.

• You'll need an account at translatewiki.net. Getting one is free and easy. You can change the interface language to German by clicking on the "English" link at the top right of that page.
• Once you registered an account there, follow the instructions.
• When you are ready, start translating from these links: [1], and [2].

If you have any problems, please let me know, I'll be glad to help. --Elitre (WMF) (talk) 16:42, 1 March 2016 (UTC)

Jimbo Talk Page

Something of interest to WMF [3].178.223.37.247 (talk) 02:14, 27 November 2016 (UTC)

A cup of tea for you!

Hi Jan, thank you for using your own account and name to communicate with us. I for one, appreciate it. starship.paint (talk) 13:30, 15 June 2019 (UTC)

Specific yes-or-no question not yet addressed

Are Office bans which are not required for legal compliance reasons, such as for harassment and incivility, appealable to Jimbo Wales?[4] EllenCT (talk) 17:09, 15 June 2019 (UTC)

A brownie for you!

Attaching your name to the Fram debate was a significant (and somewhat risky) move. I hope that having an individual rather than a faceless entity will help to calm the situation, but either way, you have earned a lot of respect from me for your action, and I appreciate it. creffett (talk) 19:50, 15 June 2019 (UTC)

Please engage in dialog

Hi Jan. Members of this community are actively asking questions of you in response to the statement you made a few hours ago, as well as about the basis of the unprecedented one year ban of Fram. It would be immensely helpful if you would engage in an actual dialog and answer those questions, rather that simply issuing periodic statements about process. Avoiding non-privacy-violating questions about Fram's ban appears evasive, and that tends to undermine the principal of Trust. - MrX 🖋 20:51, 21 June 2019 (UTC)

Jan, you have provided some background about the position you hold in the WMF. Basically admitting that you are in charge of T&S but are not aware of what goes on. Perhaps you could let us know who your immediate superior is. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 09:17, 22 June 2019 (UTC)

Foundation is hosting a homophobic, racist, tool

The Detox tool here scores "I am gay" as 90% attack, 90% aggressive, but "I am straight" as 0% attack, 1% aggressive. It also scores certain ethnicities as more aggressive or attacking as others, and does not appear to regard some forms of anti-Semitic abuse as attacking or aggressive. It is not acceptable for such a tool to be hosted by the Foundation, still less for that tool to be used by the Foundation in any way when judging editor conduct. DuncanHill (talk) 18:19, 22 June 2019 (UTC)

DuncanHill, I tried some quotes from tindernightmares. "Hey, not to be rude, but I'm looking for someone to hook up with especially after yesterday. Would that be of interest?" yields :

Results:
not attack: 1.00
attack: 0.00
not aggressive: 1.00
aggressive: 0.00

You can add sexist to the list of Detox's prejudices. It misses the EXACT thing it's supposed to prevent, sexual harassment. Vexations (talk) 22:15, 22 June 2019 (UTC)

• @JEissfeldt (WMF): This is a pretty serious issue Jan - and surely one that T&S ought to be interested in. The Foundation is hosting a tool which gives every appearance of promoting homophobia and racism. I am very disappointed that you have not bothered even to acknowledge the messages here. The page for the Detox project which developed the tool is ought of date - the contact listed does not work for the Foundation any more, and messages on its talk page are ignored. Apparently concerns about homophobia and racism are also ignored by the head of "Trust & Safety". DuncanHill (talk) 10:23, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

If this tool is useless and unmaintained, volunteer developers can take it down. It looks to be doing a simple phrase search, so there could also be a potential that those that want to make it better can contribute new commits to the phrase library. I suggest you start at this workboard. — xaosflux ^Talk 11:20, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

Thank you @DuncanHill:, I share your concern and appreciate you having spotted it. @Xaosflux:'s assessment strikes me as accurate - it appears to have been unmaintained for years - and I have requested it to be taken down. Best Jan (WMF) (talk) 16:50, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

Thank you. DuncanHill (talk) 19:24, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

@JEissfeldt (WMF): Further to the above, I am concerned that results from the tool may have been used to judge the behaviour of editors, and also for the preparation of papers. policy documents, etc. Can you confirm that the tool has not been used to evaluate editors, and that any papers etc based upon its results will be withdrawn? Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 14:30, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

Thanks, @DuncanHill:. Yes, the experiment has never been used by T&S for any purpose. I am traveling until Tuesday but my team will also explore the other question. Generally, these experiments are being both developed and run by external researchers who rely on Wikipedia's sizable corpus being publicly and freely available to them, and hence easy to be fed into their models. They are encouraged to list these efforts on Meta, so both the community and the Foundation can see it. The latest example is probably the University of Virginia's experiment but I haven't seen any findings from them yet. Best --Jan (WMF) (talk) 09:52, 27 June 2019 (UTC)

Thank Jan, I'll update the other thread to let the community know. DuncanHill (talk) 10:49, 27 June 2019 (UTC)

• Will you comment on this, taken from Katherine's page, where she appears to acknowledge the use of the Detox tool and contrast that with your statement above that it has not been used for T&S purposes? My last conversation with members of the T&S team was that they are aware of that tool, it is un-maintained and slated to be deprecated, though I am not certain of the timeline. Because yes, of course that's not helpful or constructive. Katherine (WMF) (talk) 8:03 pm, Yesterday (UTC+1)

Why did users continue to be added until last month? [5] Leaky caldron (talk) 09:50, 30 June 2019 (UTC)

Questions

1. Have you studied law or cybersecurity? If so could you detail your experience?
2. Is it true that you haven’t made a content edit to the English Wikipedia for more than five years?

Thank you for any information you can provide. Jehochman ^Talk 08:06, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

It looks like he is more active on the German wikipedia. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 22:50, 27 June 2019 (UTC)

I know. I am not implying blame to be clear. My point is that evaluating harassment requires knowledge of the language and cultural context. I think it best if cases are judged by those within the community when possible. Jehochman ^Talk 22:58, 27 June 2019 (UTC)

@Jehochman and Liz: I would agree with "It looks like he was once more active on the German Wikipedia", but not "is". If you look at [6] you will see that he has made no edit there since February 2015. JamesBWatson (talk) 12:35, 1 July 2019 (UTC)

• They need an advisory board of active editors. Jehochman ^Talk 12:42, 1 July 2019 (UTC)

• I'll ask another question. Do you know what the word tomorrow means ? Nick (talk) 08:03, 2 July 2019 (UTC)

Request for Arbitration

Hello, I have named you as a party in a request for arbitration. I did this so that you would receive case notices and also have the opportunity to comment on the case if you wish. Perhaps you will enjoy taking a close look at how the arbitration process works.

You are invited to make an initial statement of why the case should be accepted or declined, or to reply to questions posed by anyone else on the page. Please comment only in your own section. Jehochman ^Talk 12:56, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

The request for arbitration WMF and Fram has been declined by the committee. The arbitrators' comments about the request can be viewed here. – bradv🍁 13:33, 6 July 2019 (UTC)

Kafka

Franz Kafka: Das Schloss
... about alienation, unresponsive bureaucracy, the frustration of trying to conduct business with non-transparent, seemingly arbitrary controlling systems ...

Today is Kafka's birthday, and his topics seem strikingly similar to what I feel looking at T&S action represented by you. I hope for more responsiveness and transparency. I have asked before, without response, on your German user talk, - better responsiveness begins with little steps. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:04, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

It would add to the Kafkaesque, but...maybe leave a message on his "official" page...https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benutzer_Diskussion:JEissfeldt_(WMF)...Lectonar (talk) 15:08, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

It was more an almost private question. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:39, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

I know....I looked, but couldn't refrain from pointing out the above, probably rather unnecessarily... the whole episode/Framgate has left me a bit shaken to be honest. But after todays happenings I feel mollified. Lectonar (talk) 20:38, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

I don't call it Framgate because - as far as I can see - the problem is not Fram. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:02, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

Ja, ganz genau, Gerda. Es wird schon Zeit. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk)

Legal issues with commenting from WMFOffice

IIRC, after posts came from the WMFOffice account, several users pointed out that the prior understanding of the account was that it could not add comments (or make any other edits adding content), due to legal concerns. I don't remember seeing any responses to that from the WMF. The WMF's Legal policy still states that employees "should not engage in adding new content" when conducting office actions (see the part titled "No Editing" under "Office Actions"). Did the Trust and Safety team consult with Legal before performing the edits? Is it generally permissible for the WMF to post comments from that account? It would be helpful to get clarification on this.

Thanks. --Yair rand (talk) 21:52, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

3 months on

Your team’s action against Fram has been one of the most disruptive and divisive things to hit Wikipedia. Now here we are 3 months on without it resolved, and indeed still negatively affecting the environment, causing drama, refusing to end. Do you have anything else to add, or do you take away any lessons learned? It would be helpful to get your feedback. Do you think you owe the community an apology or do you still stand behind the ban? Mr Ernie (talk) 19:21, 19 September 2019 (UTC)

Hi JEissfeldt_(WMF), I am hoping that you can put down some comments here about this. Mr Ernie (talk) 07:12, 24 September 2019 (UTC)

Hi Jan - still hoping to hear from you. Mr Ernie (talk) 08:39, 29 September 2019 (UTC)

Mr Ernie, you don't honestly expect Eissfeldt to respond, do you? We're still waiting for the day these highly paid staff will measure up to their responsibilities towards the volunteers' whose work generates the donations that pays his salary. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 09:09, 29 September 2019 (UTC)

Self-regulating

We are a robust, but imperfect, self-regulating community. Please don't try to force change on us. You are welcome to attempt persuasion and education. In the long run these methods would be more effective than force and less disruptive too. Jehochman ^Talk 19:48, 19 September 2019 (UTC)

Your comments at Wikipedia talk:Arbitration Committee/Noticeboard#Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Fram

I think that your comments, while well-intentioned, are adding more fuel to the fire than is actually necessary, especially if you are either unwilling or unable to do a little self-reflection on what went wrong with this controversy and what the foundation, and by proxy, your team, could have done differently. With that said, I’d like to respectfully request that you voluntarily recuse yourself from the upcoming RfC. I do believe that your intentions are good, but I also believe that your participation could be seen as disruptive by the rest of the community. OhKayeSierra (talk) 18:44, 24 September 2019 (UTC)

Let me put this more bluntly. The community doesn't trust you. Losing trust in our own Trust & Safety department is the biggest crisis this project has ever faced, and it doesn't seem like the WMF is listening. – bradv🍁 21:14, 24 September 2019 (UTC)

I seriously question whether 99.99% of the community have heard of either this guy or the T&S dept. I have been here 13 years and until Fram blew up, I hadn't. Leaky caldron (talk) 21:22, 24 September 2019 (UTC)

I completely hear what you're saying Leaky caldron. I think I'd heard of Jan's name once before this. All too often it seems to me that the people who post are the most upset and that this group doesn't represent even the percentage of editors who are plugged in to this kind of stuff (already a small percentage of the overall editor base). That's what made FRAM so remarkable to me - the number of plugged in editors who were so upset. Speaking only for myself, Jan has done nothing to restore my faith in his actions (which is quite separate from the foundation as a whole which has done a lot). That's why I made the statement I did at ACN that Jan is perhaps not the best messenger the foundation has around these topics. If I'm just one of the upset editors while most continue to trust Jan, well I would be open to evidence of that. But given the evidence we had while FRAM was at its height I would like to see some evidence that this is no longer the case. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 22:17, 24 September 2019 (UTC)

My concern is that there's a lot of really good stuff T&S can do that ArbCom can't do. I'd like each group to swim in their own lane. Jehochman ^Talk 01:40, 25 September 2019 (UTC)

I would certainly agree there is a lot T&S does and which I continue to trust them as a team and function to do. However, Jehochman, not to put too fine a point on it but do you think Jan's last statement is swimming in T&S's lane? Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 01:47, 25 September 2019 (UTC)

• The very fact that Eissfeldt refuses to comment here speaks for itself. The post that he occupies should be either deprecated or replaced by personnel with a greater sense of responsibility to the communities. The FRAMBAN issue has done the worst damage to volunteer confidence and trust in the WMF since the project began nearly 20 years ago. However, as usual, the WMF is circling their waggons. This is a typical political, issue-evading non-statement: On behalf of the Wikimedia Foundation, I would like to thank the Arbitration Committee for all its hard work on this case. We know both the case and situation were unusual, and we appreciate Arbcom's dedication and approaching this with thought and nuance. We also appreciate Arbcom recognizing that it is permitted to hear and adjudicate private cases when such a case type is necessary. The Wikimedia Foundation looks forward to the coming RFC on the topic of "how harassment and private complaints should be handled in the future". We also invite community members to participate in the upcoming community consultation on the topic of partial and temporary office actions, which will be launching next Monday on Meta..Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 03:31, 25 September 2019 (UTC)

[User:Kudpung:Kudpung]], I don’t think you’re wrong. I’ve barely spoken up on this issue, but I think a serious evaluation of Jan’s contributions need to be weighed. Not in the sense of a ‘pound of flesh’, mind you. But Katherine simply signed off on his recommendations, and Jan has apparently been at odds with multiple Wikis for years (for what are thought to be ‘ill-thought-out plans’) and was obviously the one behind the statements from the Office account, at least when they made actual statements (against policy, mind you). Not that I think anyone in any field other than where they are expected to work, or the status of their education (or degree obtained) is incapable of any said job, but I think we should also visit why a recent undergrad in a bachelor program for Philosophy snagged one of the most pivotal jobs in the WMF. Symmachus Auxiliarus (talk) 22:55, 10 October 2019 (UTC)

@Symmachus Auxiliarus:, and other folks, I just came here with my own set of concerns, on a totally unrelated matter. but I agree with you. a manager of trust and safety needs to be someone who is totally familiar with conflict resolution, totally comfortabke with doing so, and totally ready to unhesitatingly promote a healthy and constructive discussion atmosphere. for any and absolutely all legitimate topics that may be raised by credible editors, such as the discussion thread above. just wanted to note that. thanks. --Sm8900 (talk) 08:16, 16 January 2020 (UTC)