פעמי-עליון

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Hello, פעמי-עליון!

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Happy editing! Cheers, wizzito | say hello! 17:35, 31 March 2022 (UTC)

Help us organize and improve Phoenicia-related articles

You are invited to join WikiProject Phoenicia You appear to be someone who may be interested in joining WikiProject Phoenicia. Please accept this invitation from a member of the project. I can't wait for us to work together! ~~~~

Let's go!

el.ziade (talkallam) 11:15, 27 November 2022 (UTC)

Thank you Elias. I can understand English easily, but editing in English is hard for me. I focus on improving the Phoenicia-Canaan articles in Hebrew (and I am the only editor who focuses on this topic there). I will be glad to help in specipic problems and needs, I have a wide variety of sources (some of the Hebrew sources are quite unique and have information that's very hard to find in other languages, due to the special Hebrew interest in Canaanite topics). Let me know if you need anything and tag me whenevr you want. If there is a special tag-group for Phoenicia expert. פעמי-עליון (talk) 21:53, 27 November 2022 (UTC)

Will do buddy! Please let us know at WikiProject Phoenicia if you have articles in Hebrew that are missing here. el.ziade (talkallam) 11:25, 28 November 2022 (UTC)

I donwt think I am able to go over all of the articles there; I have some suggestions, I'll write them there. Thanks, פעמי-עליון (talk) 13:45, 28 November 2022 (UTC)

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Deletion discussion about Phoenician ex-votive inscriptions

Hello, פעמי-עליון

Welcome to Wikipedia! I edit here too, under the username Dr vulpes and it's nice to meet you :-)

I wanted to let you know that I've asked for a discussion about the redirect Phoenician ex-votive inscriptions, created by you. Your comments are welcome at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 May 5#Phoenician ex-votive inscriptions.

If you have any questions, please leave a comment here and prepend it with {{Re|Dr vulpes}}. And, don't forget to sign your reply with ~~~~ . Thanks!

(Message delivered via the Page Curation tool, on behalf of the reviewer.)

Dr vulpes ^{(💬 • 📝)} 23:21, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

Hi @Dr vulpes:! It's nice to meet you too :)

THanks for letting me know (although for a minute I thought the deletion discussion concerns the article itself, and I was relieved to discover it's only the redirect), I will answer you there. פעמי-עליון (talk) 23:27, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

Hey @פעמי-עליון no worries, this looks like an area where you're an expert so if you head over the RfD and just explain it a little I'll withdraw the RfD. It's not personal, I just couldn't find anything and wasn't sure if the redirect made sense. Dr vulpes ^{(💬 • 📝)} 23:30, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for the compliment :) and thanks for doing it in good spirits and in such kindness, it could be quite stressful for me otherwise. פעמי-עליון (talk) 12:12, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

"Canaanite" Resheph

Hey, I have some reservations about your change of the short description of the Resheph page. As it stands, the cultures were listed roughly in the order of relevance of evidence - Ebla first due to abundance and antiquity, Ugarit second due to being the main source of evidence for the second millennium BCE, and then Egypt where Resheph had limited relevance, with other text corpora not included due to scarcity of attestations. Most authors firmly treat him as a core member of the North Syrian milieu and he's not really attested in particularly many sources from between Gaza and Byblos or so, and I'm pretty sure that's the generally accepted extent of Canaan. Stronger grounds for adding "Hurrian" or "Cypriot" than Canaanite, tbh. HaniwaEnthusiast (talk) 17:08, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

Sorry in advance for the broken English, it is not my first language.

a Figurine of Reshep from southern Canaan

Hi, thanks for approaching. Reshep was a Canaanite god, I don't think you will be able to find a source that says he isn't (it's not an evidence by itself, but it helps the other evidence). His appearence in Cyprus are purely Phoenician, and I don't know about his Hurrian appearences (sadly, I am not very familiar with Hurrian culture and religion). Reshep in Egypt was worshiped as a Levantine god (see for example here), not an Egyptian god. I think there are more evidence, perhaps Elias Ziade will be able to help :) פעמי-עליון (talk) 18:22, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

@HaniwaEnthusiast@פעמי-עליון I just chanced on this, I was not properly tagged :)

@HaniwaEnthusiast Resheph is mentioned on some of the Sidonian Bodashtart inscriptions (’RṢ RŠPM). The iconography of the "Smiting god" that is often linked to Resheph is also present on the 13th century BC Sidonian cylinder seal of Addumu.

Impression and Seal of Addumu, Sidon.

I understand HaniwaEnthusiast's POV and I think "West Semitic god" is better alternative to Canaanite. el.ziade (talkallam) 09:27, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

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Sakkun moved to draftspace

Thanks for your contributions to Sakkun. Unfortunately, I do not think it is ready for publishing at this time because it needs more sources to establish notability. I have converted your article to a draft which you can improve, undisturbed for a while.

Please see more information at Help:Unreviewed new page. When the article is ready for publication, please click on the "Submit your draft for review!" button at the top of the page OR move the page back. voorts (talk/contributions) 01:31, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Hi voorts, thanks for keeping Wikipedia sources standard. I myself act similarly in Hebrew Wikipedia.

About the notability of the god Sakkun: We may not know much about him, but he is well attested in the Phoenician onomasticon. I added more sources and put some of the exiting sources (like CIS) in notes. If you check Baumgartner's book you will see that scholars have been dealing with this god and the issues concerning his name and nature for over 150 years. I hope you will be able to accept the submission soon. פעמי-עליון (talk) 12:42, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation: Sakkun has been accepted

Sakkun, which you submitted to Articles for creation, has been created.

Congratulations, and thank you for helping expand the scope of Wikipedia! We hope you will continue making quality contributions.

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Thanks again, and happy editing!

Johannes (Talk) (Contribs) (Articles) 22:30, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Great! The moving to the draft was unnecessary, had the mover asked me to add sources, I would have simply add some of them in a few minutes. Thanks Johannes! פעמי-עליון (talk) 23:34, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Removing content

Please be careful removing sourced content as you did here [1], especially when your edit summary only says "Repeated information", suggesting you only removed duplicated content which was not the case.

- IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 22:28, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

Hi IOHANNVSVERVS! I will reply here on both your messages.

About the (un)repeated content removal: I apologize for removing the Peel Comission by mistake, which wasn't mentioned twice or more like other events in that section (like the Arab revolt or White Paper). Thanks for noticing, please feel free to give me notes when Imake such mistakes. English is not my first language so my ability to deal with a lot of information at once is a bit wicker than in Hebrew, I will be more careful of such mistakes from now on.

About the Ttemplate: thanks, I was not aware of all of the rules, and I generaly like this kind of infornative templates. I just want to make sure I understood correctly – I am allowed to do more than one revert in pages under ARBPIA within 24 hours, as long as they are not the same page, right? I try to concentrate my edits in controversial topic in a short time every few days to keep the Wikistress down, so I think I might find myself make more than 1 revert in one "window" (not on the same page, of course). פעמי-עליון (pʿmy-ʿlywn) - talk 11:44, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

"I am allowed to do more than one revert in pages under ARBPIA within 24 hours, as long as they are not the same page, right?"

Yes, that's right.

- IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 21:22, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

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IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 23:31, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

𓁸 , 𐤄

hwh.

Do you think this form of h could be influenced by this hieroglyph for hair? It doesn't look like a jubilating figure to me. @פעמי-עליון

𓁸 D3 U+13078 hair (šnj) Temerarius (talk) 02:41, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

Hi! I think you confused between Yod (𐤉) and He (𐤄, appears in the picture). Yod is probably based on 𓂝, which is puite identical to Proto-Sinaitic Yod. About 𓁸 – this is interesting, the Proto-Sinaitic He is similar to 𓀠 and 𓁏, but not so much to 𐤄 (there is some resemblance, but the transition is unusual in my opinion), so it is not impossible that 𓁸 is the source to the later form of He. What I think we must remember is thatmost of the findings about Proto-Sianitic script are from hundreds of year after it's initial developmant, so it's very hard to conclude anything decisively. Do you have any sources about the development of Proto-Sianitic script from Egyptian hieroglyphs? פעמי-עליון (pʿmy-ʿlywn) - talk 13:42, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

Sorry yes of course I meant 𐤄. I was just reading Orly Goldwasser's 2006 paper, which is great. Before that I was reading the unicode document on proto-Sinaitic. 𓀠 and 𓁏 are clear to be seen early, but then disappear entirely. I don't think a stem with three lines like that looks anything like a human pose. Temerarius (talk) 14:45, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

https://pasteboard.co/wDQstLLdEmAE.png the transition might look less unusual here. Temerarius (talk) 15:03, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

Do you have a link to the paper?

Remember, the Judean and Israelite forms were developted almost a millennium after some Canaanites started using alphabetic letters based on hieroglyphs froms they saw, a lot can change in such period... פעמי-עליון (pʿmy-ʿlywn) - talk 15:12, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

https://www.academia.edu/6465779 is Goldwasser's paper. https://www.unicode.org/L2/L2019/19299-revisiting-proto-sinaitic.pdf is other i mentioned. Temerarius (talk) 15:39, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

I was also thinking maybe if not hair exactly a comb. Temerarius (talk) 18:37, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

This is amazing! I have never studied this topic properly. thank you, פעמי-עליון (pʿmy-ʿlywn) - talk 21:05, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

I'm glad you enjoy! Use @פעמי-עליון the at feature, I don't think it'll notify me otherwise. Temerarius (talk) 23:43, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

Temerarius, try to subscribe button, it is very helpful. By thr way, you don't need to tag a user in his talk page - any comment in a user page automatically alerts the user פעמי-עליון (pʿmy-ʿlywn) - talk 09:51, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

Thanks! This is interesting, here's somebody else mentioning the possibility of a "hair" concept coming in, coincidentally found it just now. https://imgur.com/a/u8wAPPq Temerarius (talk) 01:01, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

https://imgur.com/a/XgQYbvb Here I found a hieroglyph corresponding to one that Albright 69 said was a ligature, or a blend of two letters stuck together. I doubt. Temerarius (talk) 01:47, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

Amazing. It's page 99 here: [2] or [3]. פעמי-עליון (pʿmy-ʿlywn) - talk 13:45, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

I'm not sure I understand, are you saying the 𓄤 symbol might be the same character as the one on the left in this picture? https://imgur.com/a/Zev9wnd Temerarius (talk) 16:46, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

Temerarius (talk) 22:06, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

I don't think it's very likely but we sould not reject it outright פעמי-עליון (pʿmy-ʿlywn) - talk 14:59, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

Variations on that 𓄤 symbol were very popular, I think, in non Egyptian-literate areas. I'm not sure what they considered it, but they often put it right next to and equal with an ankh. I'm skeptical of the tub "good" meaning interpretation and of the tet derivation from it. Temerarius (talk) 15:09, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

The letter Teth in the Canaanite script is extremely insteresting, because both in the Phoenician early script and in the Ugaritic script (which was partially based on the Phoenician one) the sign is a combination of the Taw and Ayin signs (and that reflects the pronounciation).

Do youknow any publication of all of the Proto-Canaanite inscriptions? I want to get deeper into this topic, and to do so I need first to be familiar with the archaeological evidence. פעמי-עליון (pʿmy-ʿlywn) - talk 19:19, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

I love your enthusiasm! Feel free to write to me here in another language if it'd be easier for you to do. I don't know what "proto-Canaanite" means, to be honest. What location or time period are you looking for? Or more of the alphabetic development milestones? Temerarius (talk) 19:37, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

This looks like a good one to start with to me. https://archive.org/details/cu31924096083104/ That's Cooke's. Temerarius (talk) 22:04, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

"Union" was the other similar symbol with ''nfr''. Temerarius (talk) 18:48, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

"The Anra Scarab: An archaeological and historical approach" might be something to read if you're looking into this symbol. Mention of nfr's popularity along with ankh on p 62 Temerarius (talk) 02:54, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

Oh, "proto-Canaanite" is the name used in Hebrew for any Canaanite alphabetic script before Ahiram sarcophagus, of any location (although I am interested in all of the phases of the Canaanite epigraphy) – so any source collecting pre-Ahiram Canaanite inscritions will be useful for me to learn this script.

I know Cooke's book, it's good, but it conrains inscriptions from Ahiram time and later... פעמי-עליון (pʿmy-ʿlywn) - talk 12:05, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

Early alphabet discussion group

Please join on talk page for Proto Sinaitic script or on userpage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Temerarius/Early_Alphabetic for plans if interested. Temerarius (talk) 22:27, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

Photos

Did you take the photo of the glass necklace with the heads too? That's one of my faves. Thanks for the Lachish Ewer pics! Temerarius (talk) 22:01, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

It is one of my favorites too :) but no, I didn't take it. The credit goes to Giovanni Dall'Orto. I hope to go somewhen to Sardinia to see Phoenician (as well as other cultures) remains there.

I think I will get a new camera soon and go to the Israel museum to take better photoes of the exhibits, including Lachish Ewer! פעמי-עליון (pʿmy-ʿlywn) - talk 12:21, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

Wow! Look out for the Izbet Sarteh ostracon. I think it's on display. There's one photo on wiki but it's not readable. :) Temerarius (talk) 15:20, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

You should ask to see their reproduction of the Kuntillet Ajrud pithoi. Are there any other items you're excited to see at the museum? Temerarius (talk) 15:45, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

Can you link to the pjoto of Izbet Sarteh ostracon, so i'll know not to miss it?

About Kuntillet Ajrud pithoi, I think reproductions are still under copyrights, so even if I see them (I am quite sure they are sadly not on display...), I won't be able to upload them.

And of course I am excited to see so many items! Proto-Aeolic capitals, letters from Hasor, one of the Taanakh cult stands (the other one is sadly in Turkey), Tel Dan inscription, the Ketef Hinnom priestly benediction scrolls, and even some Phoenician items :) Have you ever been to Israel Museum? פעמי-עליון (pʿmy-ʿlywn) - talk 17:22, 24 February 2024 (UTC)

I've never been to any museum, unfortunately! Not one with this kind of stuff. https://imgur.com/a/2zKb3T8 This is a drawing of the ostracon; the item itself appears pretty blank. The script is light, you can barely see it. I'll try to find that photo again. I think it was taken by Dr Gary Lee Todd. I can't wait to see some crisp pics of the cult stand! Temerarius (talk) 19:47, 24 February 2024 (UTC)

If they say you can't see the replicas, you should ask "How about the originals?" Temerarius (talk) 23:27, 24 February 2024 (UTC)

https://www.historyofinformation.com/detail.php?id=1309 here is a photo, but it doesn't look like the photo that I didn't find in Dr Todd's photostream. Maybe the one on display is a replica? 01:01, 26 February 2024 (UTC) Temerarius (talk) 01:01, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

I highly recommend you to visit museums, if you can! Photos of the finding are nothing like seeing the real thing.

About Izbet Sarteh ostrakon, I don't rememver it is on display, but I'll check again. And about the original pithoi of Kuntillet Ajrud - sadly they are kept in Egypt... פעמי-עליון (pʿmy-ʿlywn) - talk 11:50, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

By the way, about the pithoi: due to an agreement between Israel Antiquities Authority and Egyptian archaeologies in 1993, the discoveries from Kuntillet Ajrud were given to Egypt (after it returned to occupy Sinai). They weren't on display and their location wasn't known. In 2011 Egyptian revolution, many museums and storages were looted, but eventualy it was stated that the items that were given to Egypt by Israel were returned to the state and storaged safely in Cairo. Sources are here. פעמי-עליון (pʿmy-ʿlywn) - talk 14:53, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

The second source is wrong. Leads me to something totally unrelated. Is that link wrong for you too? Temerarius (talk) 21:54, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

You are right! I fixed the source just now. פעמי-עליון (pʿmy-ʿlywn) - talk 17:35, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

Finding consensus at Talk:Allegations of genocide in the 2023 Israeli attack on Gaza

Hey, thanks for pitching in at Talk:Allegations of genocide in the 2023 Israeli attack on Gaza. More attention on the subject can help the community come to a reasonable decision. But I noticed the input you provided is based on your personal analysis of the subject. This type of input can be counterproductive, because consensus on Wikipedia should be based on reliable sources and policy-based arguments. In the case of a page move, arguments should be based on what the subject is explicitly called in reliable sources, not what individual editors understand or determine it to be. Personal interpretation or analysis is generally given little to no weight when determining the results of the discussion. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 21:58, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

Hi Thebiguglyalien, sorry I didn't answer (I started to answer but forgot finishing). I am not sure what do you mean by personal interpretation. The opinion of the ICJ judges, which can in no way be interpreted as accepting the genocide allegations as probable (as I explained there), is in my opinion a way better source than any of the thousands of jounalistic (and non academic) sources that are used for writing the articles about the war. I support the policy of sources-based arguments, so I will be happy to understand where did I deviate from it. פעמי-עליון (pʿmy-ʿlywn) - talk 11:07, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Can you please take a quick look?

Hi @פעמי-עליון I am guessing you can read hebrew, and I saw that your edits involve the ancient near eastern religious traditions. It seems that someone translated an article from the Hebrew Wikipedia and it ended up like this: Tavern (ceremony). I am not an expert but I believe things must have been lost in translation because the term is not attested in current literature. I personally think the article should be moved to draft space until it is okay. What do you think. GusChago (talk) 08:42, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Hi GusChago :) Yes, only from the title chosen, I can see it must be immediately moved to draft. I am acctualy the one who wrote most of the Hebrew article, and it is indeed translated from it. I am not sure what is the move-to-draft-policy here (in Hebrew, a new article with problems can be moved right away), please let me know when is it moved to draft so I will be able to correct it! פעמי-עליון (pʿmy-ʿlywn) - talk 10:29, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Wow, I can't believe it: the Phoecnician name of Kition is kty (pronounced "kitiya"), so that's how I write it in Hebrew when it comes in Phoenician context, so "in Kition" in "bkty" ("b" = in). The translator didn't understand it (and probably doesn't understand Hebrew at all), so how did he translate the term "bkty" (b^e-ḵitiya)? "Bakhti"! פעמי-עליון (pʿmy-ʿlywn) - talk 10:41, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Awesome. I am sure @Firefangledfeathers and @Bbb23 will do the necessary and move it to draft. GusChago (talk) 11:02, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Finally, I created the article (marzēaḥ) properly! פעמי-עליון (pʿmy-ʿlywn) - talk 17:44, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

Women's Israel water polo championship

Hello פעמי-עליון,

No, I didn't find what I was looking for in this section. I have created a series of posts about the European women's water polo championships and I would like to find information about your own championship. The men's league I know exists here he:הליגה הלאומית בכדורמים in Hebrew but the women's is not. I also know that the team Hapoel Emek Hayarden participated in the first LEN Women's Challenger Cup in the period 2023–24 and logically they were also champions of Israel in the previous season. Thank you very much for your interest. Ewiki (talk) 12:34, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Happy to help! I asked a Hebrew Editor and he suggested using the Israeli water polo Association site, dows it help? I don't think there is an English version to this site but it can be easily translated with a machine tranlation. פעמי-עליון (pʿmy-ʿlywn) - talk 13:24, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

No there is no english version. I have used it before but the automatic translation did not help me. From what I saw, the federation mentions the most recent and not the history of the championship. If you find anything I would like you to inform me. :-) Ewiki (talk) 13:46, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

I'll keep looking :) פעמי-עליון (pʿmy-ʿlywn) - talk 13:51, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

If you want you can use the internet archive maybe it will help. Ewiki (talk) 14:23, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

El statue

Hello. I noticed you made multiple changes to images of El (deity) through Commons based on a single source discussing a single bronze statuette of Baal from Tel Hazor. The source you listed to justify your changes does not concern the Megiddo figurine which is considered by scholarly consensus to depict El, not Baal. Likewise, in your listed source, a footnote on page 255 (#6) explicitly identifies the Megiddo figurine as El, not Baal. As such, I have reverted all your edits which removed the El figurine from its parent categories and placed them into Baal. Sinclairian (talk) 16:57, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for the notification, Sinclairian. I am sorry but you have some mistakes. The footnote you were talking about cites Canaanite Gods in Metal 1451 – this is indeed a statue from Megiddo, but not this one (the one we are talking about is 1453. If Ornan had think 1453 is El, she would definitely have mentioned it in this footnote...). I'll e-mail it to you if you want. Second, I brought two sources, IPIAO (which is the main one, I will be happy to send it to you as well) and the article by Ornan. IPIAO cites more sources to support this view.

If you have better sources to establish consensus about this statue being El and not Baal, please bring them – I will really be happy to read more about this statue, and I want to know if I was wrong. But if you don't have sources to support this view, please revert yourself. פעמי-עליון (pʿmy-ʿlywn) - talk 22:12, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

Sinclairian? פעמי-עליון (pʿmy-ʿlywn) - talk 10:35, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, I didn't receive a notification for your reply since I wasn't actually tagged. I also noticed that Ornan actually discusses the gilded statue on page 259, where she compares it to an Ugaritic El statuette. For other sources, see ISAC’s Megiddo Expedition (Gordon Loud, Megiddo II, Seasons of 1935–1939, OIP #62, 1948), and this 2020 article from Antiquity. Sinclairian (talk) 17:47, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

That's weird, why wasn't the tag received? I linked to your user page and signed. Does this give you a notification?

In pp. 258–259 Ornan speaks about phisical-technical-design features, they don't imply an identification with any divinity. For Ornan's careful identification of this statue with Baal see pp. 271–272: "The identification of Baʿal as the deity represented on the Hazor statue finds support in other pictorial renderings, in which a variety of tree or vegetal motifs [...] are associated with a male deity, sometimes identified as Baʿal. [...] A rectangular plaque-like attribute incised with a floral motif held by the flat, gilded statuette from Megiddo (fig. 9) is another example of a male deity associated with a vegetal emblem, in this case an enthroned god as well". And see also in pp. 273–264 a discussion about the problem with the automatic identification of every seated god with El (especialy the citation of Keel and Uehlinger about the statue from Megiddo: "it is too facile a solution to identify all enthroned gods as El and all striding gods as Baal. The battles and defeat of Baal culminate eventually in the enthronement as well").

In this very great and interesting article you linked to I found: "Negbi (1976: 46–59) classifies the seated figure as belonging to the “enthroned male deity” group, and it can be identified as the Canaanite god El, the head of the Canaanite pantheon. [...] The older El is typically represented in a seated position, clearly differentiated from the younger warrior gods Baal and Reshef, who are shown standing with weapons in their raised right hands (Cornelius 1994)." and "The sceptres from Lachish, Hazor and Megiddo can be considered characteristic attributes of the Canaanite god El." The precise statement "... strongly suggest that it belonged to a life-sized statue of the Canaanite god El" refers only to the discoveries from Lachish and Hazor. So this article indeed implies it is probably El, but does not say that in certainty.

Although Loud is quite outdated and I don't think his opinion is relevant due to the existence of more recent sources, can you give a page in his book? פעמי-עליון (pʿmy-ʿlywn) - talk 14:07, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

Ok, bizarrely this one did ping me. Weird indeed.

Anyway, you're right in that Loud is quite outdated, as such I don't think it matters too much to provide the page number since the point is moot – that said, the statuette is shown in Plates 237–38, and was discovered in area BB, Locus 2048, stratum VII or VI... but I can't seem to find it in the version you linked through Internet Archive. Strange. Sinclairian (talk) 15:15, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

That's find, I trust what you say, I don't need to see the publication in Megiddo II in my own eyes. Do you have any other sources that say it is El in this statue? פעמי-עליון (pʿmy-ʿlywn) - talk 16:51, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

Sinclairian? פעמי-עליון (pʿmy-ʿlywn) - talk 23:08, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Aaaaah, I'm sorry. Honestly I've been trying to find out what sources the museum uses for its exhibit but the catalogue number doesn't provide sources, and I can't find a picture of the explanatory plaque in the museum itself. Sinclairian (talk) 14:14, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

My guess is that they based the explanation on Megiddo II, who did a very good job in describing the site as a whole but weren't necessarily experts in the field of recognizing gods in iconography...

Please let my know as soon as you find other sources on this topic; but either way, I think the fact that it is so hard to find multiple sources claiming it is El in this statue suggests it is not a consensus, so the image should not appear in the infobox of El (deity). פעמי-עליון (pʿmy-ʿlywn) - talk 21:35, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

If that comes to be the case then I suppose the picture could simply be swapped out for the other gilded statuette identified as El from Megiddo. We wouldn't even need to change the caption. Sinclairian (talk) 16:49, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

Hi Sinclairian, sorry for the enormous delay. Yes, the state you suggested is good – according to Negbi pp. 48 and 115 it represents El, and Ornan p. 255 note 16 supports it. Just a note: it is from Ugarit, not Megiddo.

Now, what do we do with the category in commons? I suggest: "A golden statue of a character was found in the Late Bronze period temple in Megiddo. Seated deities are generally identified with El, and so was this statue at first, but more recent researchers identified it with Baal, although it might be a ruler." and then the current location and sources (Megiddo II, Schroer, Ornan and Keel & Uehlinger). פעמי-עליון (pʿmy-ʿlywn) - talk 19:37, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

By the way, Schroer (p. 364) discusses the Ugaritic statue you suggested, she does carefully say it has many characteristics usually related to El, but she opeds her description by saying that the identification of some of the enthroned god is not always clear. I guess she implies she has doubts about identifying this statue with El, but I think it is good enough for the lead. פעמי-עליון (pʿmy-ʿlywn) - talk 22:26, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

Glad to hear from you. I don’t see a problem with the name of the Commons category as is. Sinclairian (talk) 14:19, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

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