Talk:Tenet (film)/Archive 1

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Edits needed

As more information about the film becomes available, the article should be developed further. I have some suggestions as to how the article can be developed. The introduction currently says:

"Tenet is an upcoming action thriller film written, directed, and produced by Christopher Nolan."

However, it should read:

"Tenet is an upcoming action thriller film written and directed by Christopher Nolan and produced by Nolan and Emma Thomas."

The infobox states that Thomas is a producer and that Syncopy Inc. is the production studio (Nolan and Thomas are Syncopy). It is also consistent with other Nolan articles.

As for the body paragraphs, they currently read like this:

"Ludwig Göransson will compose the score, which marks a departure from Nolan's frequent collaborator Hans Zimmer, owing to Zimmer's commitment to the 2020 film Dune. It is also the first time since Batman Begins without editor Lee Smith, who was replaced by Jennifer Lame. Nolan traveled to Mumbai in February and April 2019 for location scouting.

"John David Washington, Robert Pattinson, and Elizabeth Debicki were cast in March 2019. Pattinson said the script was kept so secretive that he only read it once while locked in a room. The casting of Dimple Kapadia, Aaron Taylor-Johnson, Clémence Poésy, Michael Caine, and Kenneth Branaghwas announced as filming started.

"Principal photography began in May 2019 and will take place in seven countries, including the United Kingdom, Estonia, Italy, and India. On June 30, Estonia's Pärnu Highway and adjacent streets were closed to make way for filming. The Linnahall also served as a set. The mayor of Tallinn expressed concerns about potential disruptions regarding plans to shoot at Laagna Road in July, which originally required a stretch of it to be closed for one month. They eventually reached a compromise involving temporary road closures and detours. Portions of the film will be shot in Mumbai in September.

"Director of photography Hoyte van Hoytema is using a combination of 70mm film and IMAX."

This is what I think the paragraphs should look like. I have added justifications in in bold to make it easier to follow:

"Ludwig Göransson will compose the score, which marks a departure from Nolan's frequent collaborator Hans Zimmer, owing to Zimmer's commitment to the 2020 film Dune. Jennifer Lame will be the film's editor, replacing long-time Nolan collaborator Lee Smith. [this article is about Tenet and Lame is the editor of Tenet, so she rather than Smith should be the focus]

"John David Washington, Robert Pattinson, and Elizabeth Debicki were cast in March 2019. Pattinson said the script was kept so secretive that he only read it once while locked in a room. The casting of Dimple Kapadia, Aaron Taylor-Johnson, Clémence Poésy, Michael Caine, and Kenneth Branagh were announced as filming started. [minor grammatical change]

"Principal photography began in May 2019 and will take place in seven countries, including the United Kingdom, Estonia, Italy, and India. Filming took place in the Estonian capital Tallinn in June and July 2019. The Pärnu Highway, Laagna Road and Linnahall all served as filming locations. [dates and locations should come first — it's not clear where in Estonia the locations are] Tallinn mayor Mihhail Kõlvart [he has a name] expressed concerns about potential disruptions brought about by shooting, as the original shooting schedule required major roads to be closed for one month. [the article should use film terminology] Production eventually reached a compromise that saw temporary road closures and detours in place for two weeks, but the city later granted an additional two days to allow filming to be completed. [this takes a detail from the footnote that is important enough to be mentioned in the body of the article] Nolan traveled to Mumbai in February and April 2019 for location scouting. Portions of the film will be shot in Mumbai in September. [everything related to filming in Mumbai should be kept together, just as everything related to filming in Estonia should be kept together]

"Director of photography Hoyte van Hoytema is using a combination of 70mm film and IMAX."

I also feel that there may be too much of an emphasis on the Estonian government's subsidies and incentives in the footnotes. Mclarenfan17 (talk) 11:51, 9 August 2019 (UTC)

I'm going to ping @Cognissonance: and @Rusted AutoParts: here since they have been some of the main contributors to the article. Mclarenfan17 (talk) 11:54, 9 August 2019 (UTC)

As there has been no opposition to these edits, I shall start making them in the article. Mclarenfan17 (talk) 03:09, 11 August 2019 (UTC)

Another one:

"Tallinn mayor Mihhail Kõlvart expressed concerns about potential disruptions as the original shooting schedule required that Laagna Road—a major arterial road—be closed for one month."

This sentence is necessary because it is not clear to non-Estonians that Laagna Road is a major road. It could be a one-lane alley and the sentence "required that Laagna Road be closed" would still technically be true. Mclarenfan17 (talk) 10:39, 12 August 2019 (UTC)

Confirming Tenet was shooting in Oslo, Norway on thursday 5.9. It took place over the course of one day, and locations included the roof of the Oslo Opera House and Tjuvholmen. Ref: https://www.nrk.no/kultur/hollywood-stjerner-i-oslo-1.14689664 (Source is NRK, the Norwegian government-owned radio and television public broadcasting company) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 185.176.244.83 (talk) 08:53, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

Takk skal du ha. Cognissonance (talk) 22:06, 17 September 2019 (UTC)

Jo, bare hyggelig du! 185.176.244.83 (talk) 09:42, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

Edit warring

@Cognissonance: and IPs, please stop edit warring and discuss issues here. I have protected this page for three days before things get out of hand. Thanks  — Amakuru (talk) 17:09, 20 August 2019 (UTC)

Regarding this: there is no source substantiating that it is released in the US and UK on that date. Find one. There are too many genres added, "action thriller" covers it sufficiently. Several wikilinks next to each other misleads the reader into thinking they are all one link. Categories have already been cleaned up. Cognissonance (talk) 07:41, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

Stylization

I restored the mention of the stylization "TENƎꓕ)" to the lead after it was removed by User:Trivialist in this edit with the edit summary "removing stylization only used in logo and not in general text about the film". I think that even if it were used only on the poster, that already would be reason to mention it here, but it is actually mention in sources as well, some of them discussing the stylization specifically. As an additional consideration to counter the argument that the stylization is not used in "general text", I'd like to add that it is a bit hard to type the inverted letters with a keyboard. Debresser (talk) 22:07, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

Release

Added a link above regarding Tenet potentially being positioned to be the first film to open in theaters after the lockdown. I've seen this sentiment cited by several chains, so it's perhaps worth including something about it? - "Nolan has always been a huge supporter of the theatrical experience and the business wants to repay him in a big way by making "Tenet" (released by Warner Bros.) the first big movie audiences can see in theaters once the country reopens, according to multiple sources. "It's not just showing the movie, but offering so many showtimes as a thank you to Warner Bros. for having faith in us and not giving up on theatrical," one theater owner told Insider." Sammyjankis88 (talk) 14:49, 16 April 2020 (UTC)

Given how - where I live at least - information regarding the lockdowns in various countries changes day to day, I'd say such pledges and promises hold little weight. Remember how the US president wanted to re-open the USA for business by Easter Sunday? It's all so fluid, and may well becomes redundant in a few days. Also you mention 'the country'. Which country is that referring to exactly?Robbmonster (talk) 06:52, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

It's a quote from a theater owner, check out the two sources I've added above. I think it's interesting that several chains and CEO's (Cinemark, AMC) hope* they can reboot their businesses with Tenet, which is about the only big film this summer not moving. I don't think that's a coincidence considering Nolan's stance on the theatrical experience. But perhaps you're right and it's premature adding something about it now? Best regards, Sammyjankis88 (talk) 09:28, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

My assumption was correct. I've added two more sources; Vue (British multinational cinema company) say they're hoping to open with Tenet (Link 10), and a statment from Warner Bros. (Link 11), saying: "We are committed to — and are excited about — releasing Tenet in theaters this summer or whenever theaters reopen. We remain supportive of the theatrical experience and our exhibition partners". We should definitely include something about this in the article. Best regards, Sammyjankis88 (talk) 08:21, 23 April 2020 (UTC)

After the film was postponed, well-sourced and encyclopedic information about Tenet's unique and widely debated release-strategy was removed. Why not include something about what, historically, will be the most noteworthy about the film?. (talk) 13:11, 3 July 2020 (UTC) Some good sources on the matter:

• https://variety.com/2020/film/news/tenet-delay-theater-owners-chief-coronavirus-1234711135/
• https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-arts/business/story/2020-07-11/movie-theaters-hollywood-reopening-new-films
• https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/05/14/christopher-nolan-tenet-reopening/
• https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/06/12/christopher-nolans-tenet-pushed-hollywood-seeks-buy-more-time/
• https://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2020/07/20/arts/20reuters-health-coronavirus-tenet.html

Sammyjankis88 (talk) 10:48, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

Premise edit

I havent understand why some guys are forcing an individual's analysis of the films' trailer in PREMISE section. We have already(and only) an official hint about the premise from Warner bros. Wasaydominickcobb (talk) 12:24, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

That "hint", as you call it, is nothing more than that. It has nothing of a premise in it and thus it isn't appropriate for a Premise section. Meanwhile, that "individual's analysis" just states things that the trailer already says, the source might as well be the trailer itself. El Millo (talk) 18:18, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

It is sourced, and it is informative, ergo we should have it. I find it hard to understand why you oppose this rather trivial edit so vehemently. Debresser (talk) 18:40, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

Ok, I get it. My intention was just to make things more fair. I was just thinking that their should be an official statement. But of course if u guys are not convinced then, I apologize. It really seems to be a 'hint' only and nothing more. Actually I'm a new one here. Thanks for your suggestions. Wasaydominickcobb (talk) 02:18, 24 March 2020 (UTC)

I'm pretty new to wikipedia, not sure if a possible reason for the name TENET fits anywhere? it's found in a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sator_Square - a palindromic Latin square that is the same inverted as the right way round. Considering the trailer, it seems the most likely explanation, and it does have a place in early christian codes (with a healthy dose of mysticism — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.237.163.101 (talk) 15:44, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 August 2020

Please add the following under Post-Production

Kevin O'Connell replaced re-recording mixer Gregg Landaker following his retirement after the release of Dunkirk in 2017 168.161.192.23 (talk) 18:46, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. P,TO 19104 (talk) (contribs) 20:27, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Poster

It keeps being taken down when I upload it so maybe someone else wants to put it up but clearly the poster should be changed from this effective teaser poster to the theatrical one with the cast credits at the top that every media outlet uses. --WhySoSerious? (talk) 12:03, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Please keep in mind WP:FILMPOSTER. --Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 16:54, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

I have.--WhySoSerious? (talk) 09:32, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 August 2020

--Hendrik Fiachra (talk) 07:25, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

CAST updates:
Kenneth Branagh as Andrei Sator
Dimple Kapadia as Priya
Himesh Patel as Mahir
Aaron Taylor-Johnson as Ives, a paramilitary specialist in the arena of inversion and a team leader on the Protagonist’s mission
Michael Caine as Michael Crosby, a major figure in British intelligence
Hendrik Fiachra (talk) 19:25, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

 Not done. It's not clear what changes you want to make. –Deacon Vorbis (carbon • videos) 23:17, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

I want to add names of the characters. Their names were shown in the trailer before the re-release of 'Inception'.

Production notes with the same names have also been published: http://www.imagebam.com/gallery/wxte54q5zl35dgrfrebc3yjkox8uwfnt --Hendrik Fiachra (talk) 14:19, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

@Hendrik Fiachra: Unfortunately, that is not a verifiable site as anyone can upload anything they want. Can you please find a verifiable 3rd party source?--Oportunityketchuplog (talk) 19:49, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. @Hendrik Fiachra, you may wish to try the reference desk. Seagull123 Φ 13:11, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

Protection

How long will this article be protected? 216.154.34.104 (talk) 20:58, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

The protection expires 22:37, 21 August 2020. Debresser (talk) 21:00, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

As long as you continue your block evasion! Megan Barris (Lets talk📧) 13:14, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

Date for Plot Synopsis

When do you guys think the Plot Synopsis should be added? Obviously, much of the world has not had Tenet available in theaters/cinemas yet. Even here in Australia, we're getting a wider launch on August 27 after the preview screenings on August 22-23. Should we add it on September 4 on the day after the US release? What has been the protocol on the Bond films (since those films have had UK releases a week before the US releases)? Suggestions are welcome. Once we agree on a date, we can add a disclaimer on the Premise section to not add a Plot until the agreed-upon date. --- Draco9904 (talk) 8:25, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

I don't see why there is a reason to delay. We don't avoid content because spoilers. BOVINEBOY2008 10:22, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

Agree. The sooner the better. As with any article. Debresser (talk) 11:05, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

I also agree the sooner the better. This is an encyclopedia, not a newspaper review.Thomascochrane —Preceding undated comment added 11:12, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 26 August 2020

Change the misspelled "Protagnist" to "Protagonist" in the second sentence of the plot summary. 162.195.243.139 (talk) 09:09, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

 Done and thanks Cannolis (talk) 09:55, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

Genre revisited

@Cognissonance: I'm sorry, but you cannot simply disregard a source because you find it inconvenient. The genre might have been discussed before, but we both know that consensus can change and the film quite clearly has science fiction elements. If you're worried about links appearing close together, don't delete the content but rewrite it instead. Mclarenfan17 (talk) 06:55, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

@Mclarenfan17: You removed my edit about there being no release date in the new trailer and left an unused source in References. I fixed your mistake. Action thriller doesn't create the MOS:SEAOFBLUE problem. Adding another (whether it be epic, science fiction or spy) will. Cognissonance (talk) 07:29, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

We will use the genre that's most used in reliable sources, so let's see...

• Action: Warner Bros., Deadline, Entertainment Weelky
• Thriller: Variety, Comic Book Resources, Deadline, Entertainment Weelky, Los Angeles Times, Rolling Stone, MovieWeb
• Sci-fi: Warner Bros., The Hollywood Reporter, Screen Rant, Los Angeles Times

Maybe we could just leave it as thriller for now. El Millo (talk) 07:20, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

To identify the film as much as possible but still avoid listing all of these, Action thriller is our best bet. Cognissonance (talk) 07:35, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

@Cognissonance: I don't think it's particularly notable that the trailer did not have a release date. Trailers without release dates are a fairly regular thing. Granted, this trailer is a bit longer than those others—it's clearly a response to the pandemic—but that's still little more than an oddity considering that Warner Bros. haven't changed or shelved the release date. Just because something happens, that does not mean it's automatically notable enough for inclusion in an article. Of far more noteworthiness is Nolan's apparent desire to have the film screened in cinemas and have audiences experience it as he intended it to be experienced.

Secondly, I disagree with your assertion that "action thriller is our best bet". The film is quite clearly a science fiction action thriller, so to present it as an action thriller is either a) misleading or b) suggesting that science fiction and action thrillers are synonymous genres, which they clearly are not (case in point, Arrival). While having two separate links next to each other is less than ideal, it is better than the alternative which is to omit key details. As Facu-el Millo has pointed out, multiple sources refer to the film as being science fiction. Mclarenfan17 (talk) 07:54, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

I've seen multiple genres being listed as long as they're equally used in reliable sources, Genre classifications should comply with WP:WEIGHT and represent what is specified by a majority of mainstream reliable sources. per WP:MOSFILMS. El Millo (talk) 08:00, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

Articles with wanton links next to each other are like that because of careless editors and IPs. This shouldn't look like an unattended page. The categories are sufficient enough to indicate that the film has more elements to it. Cognissonance (talk) 08:23, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

@Cognissonance: we should not be relying on categories to do something that should be fully-integrated into the prose of the article. Especially when it is something appearing in a majority of mainstream sources. Mclarenfan17 (talk) 09:40, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

I will not agree to breach MOS:SEAOFBLUE, so I'm separating the two links into science fiction-oriented action thriller. This is the only way I can see this working if I have to, as you put it, "rewrite it instead". Cognissonance (talk) 12:57, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

@Cognissonance: Your statement "I will not agree to..." show a possible WP:OWN problem. In any case, more than one genre can clearly be used even according to WP:FILMLEAD, provided the genre influenced the film in a major way and it is properly sourced. Sea of blue considerations can no be used to write bad English, like in the proposed science fiction-oriented action thriller. Debresser (talk) 18:04, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

Wrong. Disagreement is just that. You talk about bad English but misspell "not"... Why follow one manual of style and disregard another? My solution was an attempt at compromise. Cognissonance (talk) 18:16, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

Wow, you really seem to have issues. I didn't misspell, I didn't press the keyboard hard enough. In any case, I appreciate the attempt, but introducing "oriented" is unsourced and sounds unnatural (which is what I meant when I said "bad English"). Debresser (talk) 18:20, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

Come up with something better that doesn't violate MOS:SEAOFBLUE. Cognissonance (talk) 18:33, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

Let's just call it a thriller until either sci-fi or action become more predominant. El Millo (talk) 19:58, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

Sea of blue is just a recommendation. It clearly says "when possible". So please stop being so dramaatic about this. This is a classic case where having two links right after the other is the logical thing to do. Debresser (talk) 20:01, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

I can agree with Facu-el Millo's suggestion. I too feel that 3 is getting a bit crowded. Debresser (talk) 20:01, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

I'll join in agreement with Facu-el Millo. Cognissonance (talk) 05:31, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

It's worth noting that Interstellar is described as an "epic science fiction film", where "epic" and "science fiction" are separate links. So this is not an uncommon practice.

"Come up with something better that doesn't violate MOS:SEAOFBLUE."

As has been pointed out, SEAOFBLUE is a guideline. We can ignore it at our discretion and I hardly think that having two links alongside one another—the only instance in the article where it occurs—is a serious violation. Of more concern to me is your suggestion that we should omit details that are relevant to the article and based on a range of reliable sources. As Debresser pointed out:

"Your statement 'I will not agree to...' show a possible WP:OWN problem."

This is not the first time OWN has been raised. You did exactly the same thing in the Cyberpunk 2077 article. When formimg a consensus, editors need to take into account the views of all parties involved, but sometimes a unanimous agreement is not possible and so a compromise is necessary. We don't need your agreement to pass a consensus; we just need you to respect it. As it is, we need lengthy debates to convince you of the need for edits that would otherwise be uncontested, much less controversial, which is a classic example of OWN behaviour. Mclarenfan17 (talk) 01:01, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

@Cognissonance:

"I'll join in agreement with Facu-el Millo."

Two people in agreement does not make for a consensus. Mclarenfan17 (talk) 06:57, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

@Mclarenfan17: "I can agree with Facu-el Millo's suggestion." —Debresser. Three people in agreement actually, but ok. El Millo (talk) 07:08, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

@Facu-el Millo: I'm very sorry, but I didn't see that comment. Nevertheless, I do think that Cognissonance needs to reconsider how he approaches these discussions. His attitude reminds me of "I've agreed to it, so now we have a consensus". He needs to remember that he does not have the casting vote. Nobody OWNs articles, and once again what should have been a simple and uncontroversial edit has required a lengthy discussion to persuade him of the need for it. Mclarenfan17 (talk) 07:49, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

I do agree with him that we should try to avoid putting too many genres in the lead. That's why I listed the sources, to see which ones were more predominantly used. That's why I think we should go with just thriller for now. If either action or sci-fi becomes more predominant, we could include them along with thriller. If one of them becomes singularly predominant, then we'll use just that one. If the three of them are somewhat equally used in reliable sources, then perhaps we can use the three of them. El Millo (talk) 08:03, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

@Facu-el Millo: I don't really see how you can argue that it's not science fiction or that science fiction is only a small part of the film given that it involves manipulating time and multiple sources refer to it as a science fiction film. Mclarenfan17 (talk) 10:42, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

Consensus means general agreement, so revert your edit. And you're strawmanning Facu-el Millo, who is talking about the predominance of sources, not elements in the film. You're making mistakes left and right here. Cognissonance (talk) 11:17, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

Just to make sure that my opinion is understood correctly: I do think that this film should be in the science fiction category, and probably the action category as well, but I am willing to compromise and wait till after the film comes out. I have no doubt that we will add the science fiction category back in soon after. Debresser (talk) 13:03, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

@Mclarenfan17: Cognissonance and Debresser have practically answered for me. Many genres can apply to a film, so we follow sources to see the most predominant one. This film surely belongs in action and sci-fi as well, but we don't put every genre that might apply to a film in the lead section. If the two other genres end up being as heavily used in reliable sources as the genre in place right now, then we will add them. But not yet. El Millo (talk) 18:20, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

That's a very post-modern way of thinking about it, but as you yourself pointed out, Warner Bros. are referring to the film—and marketing it as—a science fiction film. I could understand your point better if we were talking about a specific sub-genre—for example, referring to Inception as a heist film—but we're not. And that's before we get to the number of IP edits and edits from registered users who have referred to the film as science fiction. It's quite clear that anyone viewing the trailer is coming to this conclusion.

"You're making mistakes left and right here."

I wasn't aware that we were keeping score and that our respective score gave weight to the merit of our opinion. Mclarenfan17 (talk) 23:32, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

We don't use a genre simply because Warner Bros. markets it as such, we go by reliable sources. And we have to pick the most predominant genre. Right now the most predominant is plainly thriller. El Millo (talk) 02:33, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

But that's assuming that only one genre is valid and/or there is a significant number of sources outweighing the others. As it is, you've presented four calling it science fiction, five calling it a thriller and some describing it as both. Mclarenfan17 (talk) 04:16, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

So we need a bigger sample then. But that's not saying "only one genre is valid", just that one may be more predominant than the others. El Millo (talk) 04:32, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

Only if a significantly larger proportion of sources describe it solely as a "thriller". If it's comparatively close, we can't just disregard those other sources. Mclarenfan17 (talk) 11:49, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

A quick Googling reveals the following:

• 15,400,000 hits for "tenet thriller"
• 16,400,000 hits for "tenet science fiction"
• 1,070,000 hits for "tenet science fiction thriller"

I appreciate that it's not a definitive measure for this sort of thing, but the numbers are close enough. Mclarenfan17 (talk) 11:55, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

But... you haven't included action in there. El Millo (talk) 15:57, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

As I said, no doubt that science fiction has to be there. Debresser (talk) 17:25, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

"Tenet action" gets 46,800,000 results, much more than any of them. Maybe it should just be referred to as an action film then, if Mclarenfan and Debresser want to go by Google numbers. Cognissonance (talk) 18:08, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

Please don't make it sound as though going by Google numbers isn't something that is completely accepted on Wikipedia. Anyway, I am a little reluctant to go by Google results regarding "action", since the word "action" might be used in other circumstances than as genre. Debresser (talk) 21:09, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

Of course you are. "Tenet action film" has 47,000,000 results, if that helps you. Cognissonance (talk) 21:23, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

Tenet is indeed an action film and that's visible from the trailer too. Then why does it have to be listed as just "thriller" according to above few users? Them not even trying to consider labelling it as action, when it's indeed been described as such, shows some clear intention to avoid it due to either personal disinterest or due to some myth regarding the genre. See, a genre has nothing to do with the film's quality. In the past, I've come across people who removed action genre from some "quality" films just because they found it "degrading", which is lame and far from reasonable.

The same happened when Dunkirk was listed on Wikipedia. Warner Bros always promoted it as an epic action thriller and never a war film. Go search it and all their pages still mention it as an epic action thriller. Yet, the same genre debate started when someone changed epic action thriller to epic thriller and epic war thriller. And then to keep it simple, it was reduced to war film while we quite know it's more than that and even Nolan denies about it being a war film. Nevertheless, coming back to Tenet, the trailers hint at an action film very easily. Even before they were out, it was being labeled an action epic. I mean, do some people still don't get a thriller is an entirely different affair from action? If thriller is a broad genre, then so is action. I mean, considering how it is being sold to the audience both in terms of content and promotional materials, my take on this is that action must be listed. I know we can't list everything but we can list sci-fi action if we want which is a fairly reasonable deal.

Also, it's not necessary for the sci-fi aspect to always dominate a film enough to be given more importance over other genres. Film like, say, Criminal, have sci-fi elements in them but are mainly action thrillers.

I don't want this to turn into a genre debate which it sadly became even before I joined. Some user who believes action shouldn't be listed until there's consensus, somehow also believes out of nowhere that we must list sci-fi thriller which hasn't been declared either. If it's that difficult, then why can't it be listed like for web/television series in the infobox itself, where one can freely mention all genres, and leave it empty in the lead section? Or just move to the second line and mention it like this: "A sci-fi action thriller, the film was produced..." Let's not just turn this into a debate and rather come up with ways to constructively act on listing the genres. The debate is not about what genre is right or wrong. All three are right, and I believe leaving the genre space empty in the lead, like done in the page for Fight Club, sounds fine as long as there's no movement here. Please don't see anything as a personal attack as the above mentioned encounters with those users are indeed true. 77Survivor (talk) 02:27, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

No genre works for me. Cognissonance (talk) 06:14, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

For me too. At least for the meantime. Debresser (talk) 07:04, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

Here's an update: Nolan just called it the most action-packed film he's done to date. https://theplaylist.net/christopher-nolan-tenet-action-john-david-washington-20200528/ 77Survivor (talk) 05:27, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

Any genre can be "action-packed" so that's not very specific. In Total Film Nolan says: "It's a spy film of great ambition", so that should be the end of that. It's a spy film with science fiction elements.Sammyjankis88 (talk) 10:54, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

No. Not any genre. Action films are primarily action-packed. Why is it so hard for some people to digest? It is an action film and WB has always said that from the beginning. What other genre has explosions, car chases and fight scenes? Thrillers? No, they are about twists and suspense. We're not here for a genre class, editor. I can see the reluctance in accepting a correct genre. Again, all three genres action sci-fi and thriller are right. You don't have to define which one is correct. We could just come up with a sub-genre that serves as a blanket term (like superhero film or as you suggested spy film as the latter does cover the elements of three genres, mostly action and thriller). I'm okay with spy film but no need of explaining what film is action-packed and what is not. 77Survivor (talk) 14:17, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

And if possible, please do share the reference where Nolan specifically cites it as a spy film. That should make it easier to back the decision in case anyone questions it. Waiting for others to decide. 77Survivor (talk) 14:19, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

Yes. Action-packed can also* mean that there is a lot of things (motion, density of plot, etc) going on, it's not a confirmation of a specific genre. A drama or a comedy can have lots of 'action' and be called action-packed. I obviously understand that this referrers to action as an 'action-film', no disagreement there, but in this context and discussion the quote is not a confirmation of genre. In no way do I personally care if we call it an action film or a spy film, both is correct. Also, the Total Film article is already used as a reference in the article, but for good measure: https://www.gamesradar.com/tenet-exclusive-images-christopher-nolan/. Best regardsSammyjankis88 (talk) 14:50, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for sharing. On my part, the article shared by me, if you've read it, cited:

“The film has more action than any film I’ve ever done,” Nolan said. “It has a plethora of action sequences that [John David Washington took] the lead in."

By action-packed, this is what I meant since it specifically referred to action sequences. I know the term can have extra meanings but in films, it normally describes action film and I expected the same to be understood.

Nevertheless, I read the link you shared and I think spy film should be good to go as it covers the main genres without violating WP:FILMLEAD and Nolan himself calls it so. If others greenlit it too, we call it resolved. 77Survivor (talk) 15:34, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

If Nolan says so, let's call it a spy film and be done with it. It can encompass the other three as well. El Millo (talk) 19:32, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

@Cognissonance, Debresser, and Mclarenfan17: thoughts on calling it a spy film, based on Nolan's statement? El Millo (talk) 23:12, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

My thoughts? You shouldn't even have to ask that question. He's the writer and director; if he says it's a spy film, then it's a spy film. Mclarenfan17 (talk) 00:01, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

Well, we need to get consensus to make the change. El Millo (talk) 00:37, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

@Facu-el Millo: actually, we don't. This is what WP:BOLD—a part of WP:CONSENSUS—says (emphasis mine):

When agreement cannot be reached through editing alone, the consensus-forming process becomes more explicit: editors open a section on the associated talk page and try to work out the dispute through discussion.

We have a source where Christopher Nolan himself is describing the film's genre. If anyone is in a position to do that, it is Nolan. So unless someome wants to argue that Nolan isn't the authority on his own film, we are free to add that content. Mclarenfan17 (talk) 02:31, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

In my opinion, to "argue that Nolan isn't the authority on his own film", I think we should take into account an official word of the genre from Warner Bros., the distributor. They could potentially be an authority, over Nolan, on what the genre is. However, I could not find a source directly from Warner Bros. that states what their viewpoint on the genre of Tenet. I am fine with calling Tenet, as a singular genre, a spy film, as it is what Nolan calls it. I just would like to know if Warner Bros. may have a different idea on the film's genre. Cardei012597 (talk) 04:48, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

@Cardei012597: here we have Warner Bros. calling Tenet a "sci-fi action spectacle", but listing its genre as action/adventure. With this many genres thrown around, I would still use spy film, as it encompasses all others mentioned. El Millo (talk) 05:21, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

Ok, like I said, I am fine with the film's singular genre being a spy genre. I only wanted to know Warner Bros. opinion on the matter. With what was given, they seem to be not as definite on the genre, unlike Nolan. Cardei012597 (talk) 05:35, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

"With what was given, they seem to be not as definite on the genre, unlike Nolan."

When has Nolan ever been anything but definite? The film is not only produced by Warner Bros., but by Syncopy, which is Nolan's production company. So Nolan is writer, director and producer, but Warner Bros. have a greater say because they're the distributor and despite the way they let Nolan do whatever he wants? Mclarenfan17 (talk) 06:44, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

I wanted a singular genre from the beginning, so spy film is good. If anyone wants to add another genre to that, we're right back where we started and should remove them altogether. Cognissonance (talk) 07:01, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

I don't really know the point of Mclarenfan's comment here, but if I understand correctly he's also in agreement with following Nolan's statement. El Millo (talk) 08:21, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

Tenet is 100% a spy film, a genre that combine escapism (often action and science fiction elements) with exotic locales. Just like Casino Royale is both an action-film and a spy film. Describing Tenet as just an action- or sci-fi is unreasonably vague when we can call it a spy film, and thus cover all tracks. Sammyjankis88 (talk) 09:25, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

I am fine with "spy film", especially since that usually implies a certain amount of action as well, so we have "action" covered. However, I repeat that there is no problem having more than one genre, and if in time we will have a multitude of sources calling this a science fiction film as well, as I expect there will be, then I would argue that we should have both the "spy" and "science fiction" genres. Debresser (talk) 10:05, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

 Done. El Millo (talk) 18:13, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

@Cognissonance:

"I wanted a singular genre from the beginning, so spy film is good."

The problem is that singular genres rarely exist these days. Take Inception, for example: it combines science fiction, what with the dream-stealing technology, but it is also structured as a heist film; Nolan himself described it as such. Then there's elements of neo-noir, which are perhaps not as prominent as the science fiction and heist aspects, but are nevertheless central to the film since Mal and her relationship to Cobb fits the femme fatale archetype. We live in an era where it is never as simple as categorising a film under one genre—and Nolan himself is a postmodernist, so he is deliberately eschewing the conventions of genre. None of his films (with the possible exception of Following) belong to a single genre.

If you asked me to name the prototypical spy film, then based on what I know of Tenet, it would not make the top ten or even top twenty archetypal spy films. Ask the average citizen to name a spy film and they'd probably pick (or at least describe) something like From Russia with Love or For Your Eyes Only. The trailer, synopsis and promotional materials for Tenet clearly demonstrate the film's science fiction elements considering that characters can manipulate time—or at least experience it differently—which is not a convention of the spy film genre. Mclarenfan17 (talk) 10:09, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

The problem is that singular genres rarely exist these days. Very true. Debresser (talk) 14:30, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

Even if there's sci-fi in it, I don't really think we should necessarily list it later as sci-fi spy film. Remember Moonraker? It's the only James Bond film that also ventures into sci-fi. And yet, we're meant to keep it simple due to which it's listed as spy film only. Like superhero film, spy film is a blanket term and is convenient to use without overloading the opening sentence. Even if it's sci-fi, we must not forget it's equally an action thriller. Time manipulation is one thing, all of it happening amidst car chases, fights and explosions is another. I'd suggest to keep it just spy film. If we're so keen to address, what elements it combines, that can be given in a second paragraph of the introduction. The first line doesn't need to be complicated. Also, we've categories at the bottom of the page to cover each and every genre/subgenre without any salad issues. 77Survivor (talk) 17:21, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

And the page for spy film itself mentions (we either follow it if right and modify if not):

"Offering a combination of exciting escapism, technological thrills, and exotic locales, many spy films combine the action and science fiction genres, presenting clearly delineated heroes for audiences to root for and villains for them to hate." 77Survivor (talk) 17:30, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

@77Survivor You are talking about this prematurely. I clearly said, if at a later time it becomes clear that many sources call this a science fiction film, and science fiction would indeed be a major (stress on this word) element in the film, then we should add it. At this moment, we're not having that discussion, nor is there any way you can oppose it, should there be reliable sources that claim that this is a science fiction film. On a side-note, please understand that your argument can be turned around against you, namely that science fiction implies, often, a certain amount of action as well. Debresser (talk) 20:24, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

@77Survivor:

"Remember Moonraker? It's the only James Bond film that also ventures into sci-fi."

Not really. Sure, Bond goes into outer space and the whole thing is preposterous, but he did so using currently-available technology. Die Another Day might be a better example with its (again preposterous) idea of a DNA transplant, but it's a very minor plot point. The promotional materials for Tenet make it clear that the science fiction elements are integral to the story. Mclarenfan17 (talk) 21:26, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

Alright Debresser and Mclarenfan17, I can sense why you might have problem with this. Sci-fi is all you want, right? That "sci-fi implies a certain amount of action" is another indication you've too much of an issue accepting this is an action film too. Why is that so? Guys, please. This is NOT about what genre is right snd what is not. I just wrote a whole paragraph days ago explaining this. Some of you seem focused on getting just sci-fi listed despite a singular genre being right option. I know, the film's yet to release, and some of our claims might indeed sound premature, but just because you think sci-fi implies action, doesn't mean it's true. The sci-fi that implies action isn't just sci-fi but sci-fi action instead. A little bit of action can be there in the genre, but what about a whole level of blockbuster action? Just to prove one genre right you don't have to bring down the other. No one's refusing the sci-fi thing and it seems like my whole message has been misunderstood. I was only saying we need to keep the genre in opening sentence short. That's it. One genre that can summarize the whole movie instead of just our favorite aspects. If you really wish to contribute to this constructively, think about this. Otherwise, there's no point in arguing even when you have the director himself saying it's a spy film. And for the James Bond thing, well he does use gadgets in all films but Moonraker still is the only one that actually goes this far in terms of sci-fi (even if it's not that far actually). Space is still considered a subject of the genre, isn't it? 77Survivor (talk) 03:18, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

@77Survivor: I have no objection to the film being referred to as an action film. However, I think that relying on the description as an action film to convey that it is a science fiction film is a mistake because the average reader isn't going to read "action film" and think "oh, it must be science fiction". Based on everything we know about it, a better way of describing the film would be "science fiction spy film". Mclarenfan17 (talk) 03:57, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

That "it must be" thing works both ways. I'm done here. 77Survivor (talk) 10:51, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

If that were true, there would be no need to classify films by genre. Mclarenfan17 (talk) 07:09, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

You people STILL haven't classified this as science fiction.......? W. T. F. --72.184.60.96 (talk) 18:08, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

Plot misinformation

In the following paragraph, there is some misinformation presented:

Kat reveals that Sator is dying from inoperable cancer and has turned omnicidal, believing that if he is to die, then all humanity should go with him. She explains that the unidentified objects, nine in total, are nine parts of a yet-to-be-discovered algorithm, capable of inverting the entire world, which was sent back to the past by its inventor in an attempt to prevent it from ever being used. The people in the future who are helping Sator believe that reversing entropy will reverse climate change and make the Earth habitable for them. The Protagonist questions the logic of future humans killing their own ancestors and threatening their own existence. Neil responds that the future people are facing extinction, and may have no recourse but to try.

Text in bold is not told in the movie by Kat, but by Priya whom the Protagonist visits.

Edit: Above is not entirely true either, my bad. While Kat is recovering from her wounds while inverted, Neil actually reveals that the Plutonium 241 is actually a piece of nine in the algorithm, and what this algorithm can do. The protagonist later visits Priya who reveals more about the origins of this project. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Whodogius (talk • contribs) 22:23, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

Fixed. starship.paint (talk) 04:15, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 28 August 2020

https://entertainment.ie/cinema/movie-news/tenet-sound-mixing-460957/ Please talk about the sound mixing issues in the reception area. It's a problem that both reviewers and moviegoers have been complaining about. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.26.102.51 (talk) 18:05, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

Added. starship.paint (talk) 04:16, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

Plot: were the Ukrainian police undercover Russians?

Can anyone else who watched the film confirm a claim by User:Neptune777, that the Ukranian police in the first scene were actually undercover Russians? I certainly don't remember that. starship.paint (talk) 12:39, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

Martin Donovan in Tenet says about Russians. Neptune777 (talk) 12:54, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 30 August 2020 regarding Box Office of Tenet

Change box office from $718,105 to $53,000,000. Source: https://variety.com/2020/film/box-office/tenet-box-office-international-christopher-nolan-1234753966/ 2001:8F8:132B:225:F0A2:A6A6:F131:777 (talk) 18:24, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

 Already done by TropicAces diff. - hako9 (talk) 01:04, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 31 August 2020

Please change "leading him to Laura, a scientist studing bullets" to "leading him to Laura, a scientist studying bullets" because studying was spelled wrong. ForestJustin (talk) 06:11, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

 Already done, thanks for pointing it out! ‑‑ElHef (Meep?) 16:16, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

Stealth sequel to Inception

With this edit 971879171 the speculation of it being a stealth sequel to Inception was removed. Please discuss here before re-inserting, so we can show that there is consensus to include. --Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 20:29, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

It's been widely speculated, but I don't know if we should include it as it was. Perhaps we could include Washington's comments on the theory. El Millo (talk) 21:01, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

I am happy if someone has better wording, but this is not just speculation from a fansite or one person so it is not on an ordinary level of speculation that we normally exclude. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 21:07, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

Frankly speaking, I think this can be restored without further ado, and it is on those who removed this to show that this well-sourced information is not relevant or due. Debresser (talk) 21:33, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

I'm sorry but it is not a sequel to Inception... Inception was about dreams within dreams and the relativity of time in those dreams, Tenet was about time inversion of objects and people and preventing the end of the world - two completely different things. Just because they both involve mechanics relating to time does not mean that they are related. There are fan theories made about every movie these days, but just because an actor from a given movie talked about them does not mean they should included on the Wikipedia page for that movie. --NitroblastDigi (talk) 16:35, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

@Emir of Wikipedia, Facu-el Millo, and Debresser: Fan theories are only relevant when they are confirmed to be true. We can't add every single thing that reddit comes up with. The sources are either saying it is "farfetched" or "not likely". Not to mention the edit was poorly done and had to be copyedited. Fucking ping me next time. Cognissonance (talk) 22:35, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

Hey, calm down. This theory was added because many major venues commented on it. You don't OWN this article, you know? Chill. El Millo (talk) 22:51, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

Agree with both points ("calm down" and "you don't own this article"). Debresser (talk) 23:57, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 3 September 2020

Change "painting" to "drawing". The artwork in the movie is a Goya drawing (or rather two false Goya drawings) not paintings. Mrbanquo (talk) 22:15, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

 Done Thanks. Debresser (talk) 15:32, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

Kyiv not Kiev

Change name to Kyiv. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Тарас Бакун (talk • contribs) 20:10, 6 September 2020 (UTC)

As explained in the edit summary that reverted a previous attempt to use "Kyiv",[1] in English it is "Kiev" and this is the English Wikipedia, not the Ukrainian Wikipedia. Debresser (talk) 23:11, 6 September 2020 (UTC)