Talk:Stratioti

More info

http://www.deremilitari.org/resources/pdfs/pedani.pdf

A picture http://www.nobili-napoletani.it/images/ALBANESI/Maipesi.gif —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.209.156.131 (talk) 20:50, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

Barbarigo

Deucalionite, if as the source for your "Αρβανίτες Ελληνες" you mean the Ta Nea article you quoted to Matia the other day, read it carefully: it doesn't even ascribe that phrase to Barbarigo. If you know it is from Barbarigo nevertheless, quote me chapter and verse in the Sathas edition, plus the original wording in Italian or whatever language it was written in. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:04, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm changing this back, as no confirmation of this quote has been forthcoming. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:30, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Aigest 06:53, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't think the term Greek mercenaries is correct. In the same article it is described that they were recruited from Albanians, Greeks and Dalmatians which are all different nationalities. Let's use the term mercenaries instead without the nationality reference. Even the reference there "they are all greeks" I think probably it's used to describe their orthodox religion. There were no greeks at that time in Durazzo, not even in Napoli. Instead there were Albanian emigrants in Napoli (now called Arbëresh) and Albanians in Durazzo and they were all orthodox.

Oh yeah? Greeks had colonies in Albania, Dalmatia and South Italy since 7th c. BC and are still present there as ethnic or lingual minorities. "Durazzo" is the ancient Epidamnos. Romans changed name to Dyrrachium because of the "damn" in the Greek name, but we don't need to refer to Greek presence in Albania. For Greeks in Dalmatia see Epidaurus (Dalmatia) (today Cavtat), List of ancient cities in Illyria, Issa (today Vis (town)), Pharos (Hvar http://www.dalmatia.net/dalmatia-island-hvar/), and Trau (ancient Gr. Tragirion) with the nearby island of Bua. --Euzen (talk) 08:07, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

More than 80% of Stradiots were of Albanian origin the rest of them of Greek and slavic origin, most of them were of greek orthodox religion not of greek ethnicity.

Not quite. The study says that 80% of names (in Marco Sanudo's archives, not in whole Europe) are of Albanian origin. This is debatable, though, or needs some interpretation. About half of the "Albanian" names are albanized Latin. For those who don't know details of that period: Many persons' names were actually the names of their landlords or toponyms. Albanian (catholic) landlords had been established since the crusades period at the expence of orthodox population. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Euzen (talk • contribs) 12:11, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

Cyprus?

Is it certain Stradioti were "recruited" in Cyprus? I've seen references saying Arvanite stradioti units moved to Cyprus and settled there at some later stage, but was it also a recruiting area? Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:29, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Albanian Stradioti

According to the history of my ancestors many of them (Stradioti) were of Albanian extraction too. Does anyone have more information about this? One article I've read and is mentioned here in the Wikipedia article in the past is at: http://www.shsu.edu/~his_ncp/Stradioti.html —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Contessa arberesh (talk • contribs) 18:31, 12 May 2007 (UTC). Aigest 06:49, 19 September 2007 (UTC) I am preparig something about it and yes you are right.

Roberto Damiani's website [1] and the list of the condottieri [2] are quite reliable and in fact has helped scholars in their research See comment of Pietro Bembo in his History of Venice: Books I-IV, Volume 1 [[3]. I think it may safely be used in this article as a RS. --Sulmues ^(talk) 15:57, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

-According to the sentence"Others seemed to be of South Slavic origin, such Soimiris, Vlastimiris, and Voicha." in the footnote, see a not good used analogu like soimir and vladimir,bouth ending with mir. In th case Soimir it is very transparent in albanian language from "the gentelmen kind" which is "gentelmen family"--Flokarti (talk) 14:59, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

I've removed this part since this is complete of zero value. None of them meets wp:n. Guess another pointy edit by an old blocked troll Guildenrich.Alexikoua (talk) 16:59, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

We'll see if they are notable once that I start articles about them. It's very disruptive of you to ignore reliable sources.--Sulmues ^(talk) 18:24, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

Sure go on. Actually this was nothing more than a povish list, added by a blocked user, that didn't meet wp:n, just to monopolize the Stratioti as Albanians only. What is disruptive here is that a user supports indef blocked editors with the excuse that they are just his coethnics.Alexikoua (talk) 19:20, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

Btw per MOS please don't disrupt the alphabetical arrangement in order to put one ethnicity before the other ones and don't add irrelevant terms on the lead.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 14:43, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Alexi, leave aside these comments, and make a comment on on Roberto Damiani as a source. --Sulmues ^(talk) 14:44, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Seems you both are completely out of topic? Alphabetical order? lol. It was just a list added by a indef blocked user, and now it's gone because non of them met wp:n (ignore nationalist advocacy)Alexikoua (talk) 15:00, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

The only out of topic is you. I am asking for the third time if you consider Roberto Damiani a reliable source. Say simply yes or no. --Sulmues ^(talk) 15:06, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

To what is this dispute related?--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 15:08, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

To this edit. Reverted [4] and again Alexi's edit--Sulmues ^(talk) 15:11, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

To sum up, Zjarri (above) said this: don't add irrelevant terms on the lead., alphabetical arrangement? I'm sorry but he must mistaken me from somewhere else. He should read again wp:what wikipedia is not. Blindly accusing is really the worst extreme way of disruption in wikipedia.Alexikoua (talk) 15:14, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

That was the state of the article and I'm not blindly accusing anyone. I don't think that common mistakes are a reason for accusing someone because people make mistakes and learn from them. Btw Sulmues seems to have asked you about something 3 times so it would be prudent if you answered and didn't IDHT him.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 15:31, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Only an Albanian nationalist would place the sentence that 80% of Stratioti were Albanian in the second sentence of the lead. I mean, really. Athenean (talk) 22:08, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

That's what the article says. By the way you completely messed up the references with your disruptive editing. [5] --Sulmues ^(talk) 22:10, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

So what? Why should that be the second sentence of the article? Like I said, only an Albanian nationalist would....Athenean (talk) 22:23, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Why would only an Albanian nationalist add that on the lead?--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 08:52, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Because is against wp:lead. @Zjarries: I still wait an explanation about your weird accusations here, as stated above (don't add irrelevant terms on the lead., alphabetical arrangement etc. empty accusation against me). Else I doubt if someone can take your comments serious here in general.Alexikoua (talk) 10:52, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

(unindent)I didn't make any accusation against you. I don't think that common mistakes are a reason for accusing someone. Btw it would be prudent if you removed your comment about my comments. It's not against wp:lead because it's a summary of the section which includes names documentation etc.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 11:53, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

As long as we give information about the stradioti we should say where they were from, and as long as we say where they were from, and we have reliable sources on the percentages of nationalities, we might as well say them. A guy from Japan who hears "Stradioti" might be convinced that they are Italian. Then he discovered that that's not the case. So he thinks "where were these people from?" He reads a bunch of countries from the Balkans. Then he wonders, yes but who gave more Stradioti to Italy and other western countries? The answer is: 80% of them were Albanian. Very good information, which is important for the reader. --Sulmues ^(talk) 12:11, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for recognizing your mistake.Alexikoua (talk) 18:17, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

I had to ask for full protection because you continued the edit-warring Alexikoua.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 18:43, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

I still fail to understand why reporting sources in both the body of the article and the lede would qualify as Albanian nationalism. The source btw is a Greek. The accusation that I am an Albanian nationalist is a heavy one and I expect apologies. I'm here to write good articles, not to represent any nationalism. All I do is write based on secondary reliable sources. --Sulmues ^(talk) 19:01, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

I haven't heard a single valid reason why that sentence should be the second sentence of the article. I mean, should we make it the first sentence too? No one is saying it should be removed from the article, but how is the fact that one single author claims that 80% of them were Albanian deserve to be the second sentence in the article? It simply doesn't. It's too much. Leave where it is in the text, but it doesn't merit placement in the lede. Athenean (talk) 19:46, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

And why would it be too much? The author is an expert in the matter and he highlights a number. Why would you hate the fact that in the lede the Albanians appear to be 80% of the Stradiotes? Again, it seems like all you do is worry about the ledes. Please focus on the body of the article first and then the lede is a summary. I haven't seen you bring decent contributions to the body of the article and you already got this article stuck because you insist in the lede presentation only. This is disruptive editing and you are not proposing anything constructive, you're just saying "Do me a favor and get it out of the lede, becuase it's too much for me to see it". I fail to see any reasoning behind your request. --Sulmues ^(talk) 19:55, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

I'm asking you a simple question, and you respond with personal attacks (I hate this, I don't propose anything constructive, I don't bring decent contributions, I worry too much about ledes...). Just try to answer my question. "Why not" is not a valid answer. Athenean (talk) 20:02, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

I gave you a valid answer. I am following WP:Lede, which says that the lede should be a summary of the relevant points in the body of the article. The article mentions the 80% of the nationalities, so does the lede. You are not telling me why I shouldn't follow WP:Lede. --Sulmues ^(talk) 20:06, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

You answer boils down to "why not", which is not a valid answer. There is simply no argument that the second sentence of the article should be a sentence about ethnic distribution. To the rest of us, ethnicity here just isn't that important that it should go right in the second sentence of the article. I bet if the Stratioti were 80% Greek, you would arguing the exact opposite. Athenean (talk) 20:10, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

No, I am repeating you for the n-th time that my answer is I am following wp:lead. By the way this edit of yours [6] is unacceptable. Please don't take bets on my intellectual honesty, you might be surprized.--Sulmues ^(talk) 20:15, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

"I am following wp:lede" is not an argument. Anyone can claim to do so. Athenean (talk) 20:18, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

There is also no argument to keep any ethnicity on the lead, so when the full protection expires I'll add that they came from the Balkans and if the reader wants to know their exact origin he can read the origins section(per wp:lead that is a summary), otherwise since we're adding ethnicities there's no reason to not be precise about the ethnicity of the majority. Btw the source didn't say that just one Greek author made such a suggestion but that Most modern, as well as a good number of early authors have indicated that the stradioti were Albanian., so this isn't a one sided approach.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 22:29, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

OR

Euzen can you please stick to the sources and not make or deductions? Despite the fact that you're using a 1551 source, you're not even citing it correctly because the source says as you quoted it: Gli stradiotti erano un Corpo di cavalleria, constituito principalmente da albanesi, greci, dalmati, bulgari, which means that they were mercenary units from the Balkans, but you translated that as Contemporary historians call them Albanians (Albanesi) or Greeks (Greci). That speaks volumes regarding or. Also you don't even know what any of the terms meant at that time, and please don't delete other references.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 08:06, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Mr Zjar, there is no point in guarding articles and aggressively delete in real time. This practice has already been dealed with in the case of Sulmues. If you read carefully the references that you deleted you will see that ref. about "albanesi, greci, dalmati, bulgari" is of 2005. By "contemporary" I mean references of 16th c. If wording or syntax is wrong, we can correct it. The 1551 source is not a "research" but a well-known historical reference regarding medieval Italy. What about Enciclopedia Italiana? If you don' like them, present your arguments.

I paste here the paragraph that your deleted. It is full of sources. You may explain what exactly YOU understand as a "source" and as "Original Research". There are many sources, not only the ones that you select, and published in numerous secondary and tertiary sources, like the ones I refer to.
If you claim that you know better what the terms "Albanian" and "Greek" meaned at that time, let us know.

"They were known as stradioti from the Greek word for soldier." (Ref.: Grande Enciclopedia Italiana, ed. Treccani, article Stradioti: "dal basso greco στρατιώται"). Contemporary historians call them Albanians (Albanesi) or Greeks ("Greci") (Ref.:Pietro Bembo (original publication 1551), Storia Veneta, Venezia, 1780, transl. from latin to italian, pp. 154, 188, 198, 206 etc.), while modern essays recognise their mixed origin/ethnicity/language (Ref.: [7] Sul Tutto, p. 3: "Gli stradiotti erano un Corpo di cavalleria, constituito principalmente da albanesi, greci, dalmati, bulgari ..." (Pappas). A study of the stradiotti names in Venezian archives showed that around 80% of the listed names were Albanian while most of the remaining ones, especially those of officers, were Greek and a small minority were of South Slavic origin. (Pappas)"
You cannot erase and re-write history.--Euzen (talk) 08:41, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Euzen read WP:OR, then read the sentence you're citing and afterwards read your deduction. Btw Bembo wasn't even a historian but that doesn't matter because the fact the vast majority were from the Balkans is already part of the article.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 08:51, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

You need an author to claim that sentence from XVI century, not your interpretation. If you would take care to read WP:OR, you would spare to others a lot of time. This is the n-th time the other users (including me) are saying this to you. Aigest (talk) 11:14, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

OK, if there is one physical person behind each username, the "other users" are the known company of 3 or 4 (is S. still banned or off duty?).
You don't cheat anybody whith the trick of "OR". The issue is very simple. Cardinal Pietro Bembo was indeed a well-accepted historiographer (e.g. see http://www.enotes.com/literary-criticism/bembo-pietro ) and was contemporary of Stradiotti. His work is cited by many historians and this is why a Google search for "Pietro Bembo" or variants gives some hundred thousands of hits. However, if you feel that you can criticise him, go ahead. All I wrote in this article is that he calls the stradiotti "Greci" in more that 20 occasions in his History of Venezia. This is not my "interpretation", is the plain citation of an author. But if you do not like a 16th c. book and you prefer something 2nd or 3rd hand, I will bring one or two.
Still waiting suggestions for corrections in my paragraph. Bembo is here to stay.--Euzen (talk) 16:12, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Evidently either you don't get the concept of OR -ing or you are trolling as usual.Aigest (talk) 08:46, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Evidently YOU are trolling. Here is what WP sais about O.R.:

"The term "original research" refers to material—such as facts, allegations, ideas, and stories—not already published by reliable sources."
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:No_original_research) If you are really particicating in this discussion, you are invited to indicate which source of mine is not reliable.--Euzen (talk) 08:18, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Still you don't get it. Let me put this simple. In your case first issue are the sources, they should meet WP:RS criteria. Apart other requirements for WP:RS, Bembo falls under the category of primary sources, since yourself admit that he was a contemporary of Stradioti and usually primary sources are not preferred to be used in wiki exactly for the risk of OR-ing(read more here). Second issue are how to cite them.

Though we may report the attributed opinions of reliable authors, articles should never include the opinions of Wikipedians themselves, even if you are an expert who has read any number of primary, secondary, or tertiary sources. Your opinions and interpretations do not belong in an article. But it is appropriate to document interpretations of events, data, or opinions, as published in reliable secondary source material. Peer-reviewed sources are especially valued. While secondary source material is most preferred, primary sources may also be used to report factual material provided the contributing editor states the fact in a manner that does not present an interpretation of the fact (original research) which is not itself explicitly contained in the primary source.

When you claim "Contemporary historians call them Albanians (Albanesi) or Greeks ("Greci")" You have interpreted a fact which is not itself explicitly contained in Bembo. If Bembo would have stated that "Historians call them Albanians or Greeks" that would have been ok up to the point of WP:RS of Bembo. But in this case that phrase is a conclusion made by you Euzen and not by any scholar. It is not important if it is right or wrong, it is your conclusion thus OR. Do you understand? Aigest (talk) 10:46, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

New version

I created a new version. Sorry about a small mistake I made, but I was working on both this and another article--Kushtrim123 (talk) 14:00, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

You accidentally removed a number of sources on the lead picture. Zjarri was also eager to remove them, as he told me in my talk page.Alexikoua (talk) 14:08, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Great job on the new version Kushtrim and Alexikoua your latest edit was totally OR apart from POV since the source didn't say French drawing of Greek and Albanian stradioti..." it said French drawing of Albanian stradioti and the other source which didn't say anything about the drawing said Albanians, Greeks, Italians.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 14:14, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Alexikoua do you have access at Oxford Journals? The page of that link says nothing about any Greek stradioti.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 17:10, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Zjarri: please avoid this endless campgain of disruption: the source is quite clear, and I gave the exact quote (which you removed together with all the reference and you admit that you haven't access on it).

Also if you have not access to Oxford Journals, although everyone can confirm this quote, you should better go to a library instead of blindly removing in wikipedia.Alexikoua (talk) 17:31, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Do you have access to Oxford Journals or are you again using google search without actually having access to the sources themselves? I think that you're using simple google search because if you had actual access you would be quoting whole sentences.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 17:39, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

(ignore trolling) I have. For future reference we don't remove sources just by using the hypothetical arguments.Alexikoua (talk) 17:47, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Then bring the full quote and I mean the whole sentence not just what the rest of us can see from google if that's true. If you don't bring the full quote since you claim that you have access I will assume that you don't have and remove the pov tag as WP:IDONTLIKEIT, otherwise I'll revert myself ,bring back the source and remove the tag.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 18:07, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Can you be a little more precise on the 'full quote'? I can give the 'entire' page.Alexikoua (talk) 18:43, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

[[8]] (hope it's visible).Alexikoua (talk) 18:49, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

(unindent)Yes, it's visible and as I said I'll revert myself, add the whole quote and remove the tag.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 19:36, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

At least very kind of you restoring a url that was previously removed [[9]] with the excuse that oxford journals isn't accessible.Alexikoua (talk) 14:07, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

(unindent)I didn't restore your first url because you sourced the wrong one p.191 instead p.192.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 14:50, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Albanian "statistics"

The albanian editors grabbed the citation of Pappas about "80% of the names" and turned the names to nationality statistics. However, in other articles the same editors have showed that even if the name does not sound Albanian, they turn it so and ... voila! The person becomes Albananian (e.g. see application of this method in Gregorios Argyrokastritis (Gregory IV of Athens)).

Pappas is not "most modern historians", names do not mean nationality, and Sathas, who did the original research, does not refer to all stratioti.
However this is some info for the occasional "Japanese reader", provided that he will not read anything more about Albanian language.

Selective use of sources is applied in this article, as usual. Pietro Bembo, a first-hand witness of stratioti and widely cited historiographer, who calls the stratioti mostly "Greci", is vandalously erased by the albanian editors as ... original research! Poor Bembo! Does he have to remain out of WP together with Thukydides, Xenophon, Herodotus, Strabo and other "ORs" !--Euzen (talk) 07:50, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Concerns about development of the article

I have been concerned for some time that this article is failing to develop. Very little is being said about the service of stratioti, which is a weakly developed (coverage is noted as a weakness in the B class checklist). Yet a huge amount of e-ink is being spilled on the supposed ethnic origin of the troops. This seems to drift uncomfortably close to edit warring and, more disturbingly, seems to have a ethnic POV content. Could I then suggest that, in order to attract new editors who may be able to expand the deficient areas of the article, that this dispute is settled and the article stabilised? Thanks Monstrelet (talk) 19:19, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

I have about 100 pages of material (including some pictures) for this article but there is no point in contributing and wasting time, when some editors behave like owners and use the article to beef up their national myth. See the history of the article and you will realize that some are deleting important references on funny explanations, just because they demolish the myth of "albanian stratioti".

This small article and its links are part of an albanian project aiming at creating a medieval "albanian nation", when modern literature is clear that albanian national identity was hardly existing by the end of 19th c (e.g. Bernd J. Fischer (2005) A Brief Historical Overview of the Development of Albanian Nationalism). Check for instance the link Mercurio Bua and discover that he was (what else?) "Albanian", when there are undeniable sources that he was a native Greek speaker, born in Greece and recognized by the Italians of his time as "Greco".
I will avoid edit-war. I am interested in military history and only history. If you can propose a way to bypass this electronic autarchism we can have a good war history article. --Euzen (talk) 12:17, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Euzen Monstrelet and others want to improve the article and Aigest has told you to read WP:OR about your deductions so please do that.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 12:29, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, but I don't think you and Aigest have any authority to give instructions to other users. --Euzen (talk) 09:12, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

I have now gone through and restructured the text to help clarify where the weak points are and to make it more user friendly. I've added no text, nor have I altered the references.Monstrelet (talk) 08:38, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Many times in the Western Europe "Greco" was a description for christian orhodox believers, for example the Spanish did call everyone from eastern mediterranes and orthodoxs for "greco" later it become even a word for non latin speaker, the Mexicans use still "gringo" which is a version of word "greco" to describe the anglo speakers of America, even the word for northern Albanians "Gheg" is a version of "greek", probably first used by slavs who migrated to balkan to describe non slavics. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.209.156.131 (talk) 20:34, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

List of vandalisms (info and references deleted)

The guardians of the albanian POV are online 24 hours a day and delete references in milliseconds, as they practice in all related articles. For the interested reader here is the list of the deletions.

15 Nov 2010, line 39, [[10]]. They try to create an impression of temporariness around the Greek identity. The Greek city of Argos, the oldest city of Europe, being Greek since at least the Mycenean period, the source of hundreds of texts on Linear B in Greek language, has to be a "modern Greek" city. Do they know history?

Here, [[11]] they erased the etymology of "carabins" just because refers to a Greek word. The erased phrase:

This term is believed to come from the medieval Greek word "caravi" (boat, ship), since these soldiers were also seamen and were transported by ships (Sathas K. (1885) Greek stratiotai in the West and the revival of Greek tactics, in "Estia", vol. 19, No 492, p. 371, in Greek language.)

They are affraid of the wordk "Greek" in linked articles!

Nov 6, 2010
I added: "From Laskaris family: Isaakios Laskaris, killed in the Battle of Fornovo (1495), Demetrios Laskaris, son of Isaakios, ..." and was deleted.

The fact that authors report his death just because he is "Laskaris" does not mean anything to the ruthless vandal.
—Preceding unsigned comment added by Euzen (talk • contribs) 19:36, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

They are affraid of the word "Greeks" in all languages!

Nov 3, 2010
San Giorgio dei Greci is deleted and replaced by Eastern Orthodox Church in Venice!
Zar's rules! Does anybody else know the difference between the "Greek Orthodox Church" and a "Greek Orthodox Temple"?
--Euzen (talk) 12:33, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

Oops! Instantly reverted before I even think of checking the WP rules on racism.--Euzen (talk) 12:44, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

Nov 3, 2010.

According to Pappas, most modern historians as well as a good number of early authors have indicated that the stradioti were Albanian. This is accepted by the author as true to a certain extent but which has to be qualified (Nicolas Pappas, undated, http://www.shsu.edu/~his_ncp/Stradioti.html). According to a 1960 study by a Greek author, around 80% of the listed names attributed to the stradioti were of Albanian origin while most of the remaining ones, especially those of officers, were of Greek origin; a small minority were of South Slavic origin. (Pappas). Subsequent works support that at least the regiment of stradioti who served Venice were recruited entirely from Greeks (Harris J., Greek Emigres in the West, 1400-1520 (Camberley: Porphyrogenitus, 1995), cited in Harris J. (2002) Byzantines in Renaissance Italy.). Venice, due to its dependence on the military services of the stradioti, granted the Greeks initially the permission to use part of the church of San Biagio and later to build their own church, the San Giorgio dei Greci (Geanakoplos D. (1966) Byzantine East & Latin West: Two Worlds of Christendom in Middle Ages and Renaissance. Edit. The Academy Library Harper & Row Publishers, New York,exerpts online).
—Preceding unsigned comment added by Euzen (talk • contribs) 10:39, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

Oct 27, 2010

Contemporary historians call them Albanians (Albanesi) or Greeks ("Greci") (Pietro Bembo (original publication 1551), Storia Veneta, Venezia, 1780, transl. from latin to italian, pp. 154, 188, 198, 206 etc.), while modern essays recognise their mixed origin/ethnicity/language.--Euzen (talk) 10:50, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

Euzen all the outdated Bembo says is that they were from the Balkans so please stick to the sources and don't make OR deductions about the Venetian stradioti being entirely(huge or and pov) Greek. If you want to mention that apart from Albanian stradioti in Nafplio, Argos etc. Greek stradioti also fought go ahead but please don't make or deductions. As for the church you only had to add the name for the Byzantine rite church, but instead you chose to make or deductions.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 11:32, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

Middle Ages

The current section marked Middle Ages seems to have no direct connection with the topic. It may be justified to have a section on the period if we can come up with some evidence from the Balkans of the development of a light cavalry type which later becomes known as stratioti but 12th. century military settlement in Asia Minor seems irrelevant. Is there relevant medieval evidence or should this section go, so that the story starts with the Venetians in the late 15th. century? Monstrelet (talk) 08:32, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

There is indeed medieval evidence. "Stratiotai" (the correct Greek) are mentioned by byzantine authors well before 15th c. When I find the time I will enrich this part.--Euzen (talk) 10:48, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

I agree with Monstrelet that they are outside the topic of this article. The famous light cavalry of stradioti of 15-18 centuries AD (which is the topic of this article) have no connection whatsoever with those unknown troops (12th century prisoners of war in Asia, practically unknown to the history, their role, battles and even their military type, whether horsemen or infantry). Aigest (talk) 11:05, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

It would be good to have a medieval prequel to the main text but only if the link is clear. I struggle to see how 12th. century Serb colonists in Turkey contribute to the development of mercenaries in Italy in the 15th. If there is a link, lets have it explicit. I think it highly likely that the troop type originated in the later Byzantine Empire in Greece and the Balkans but we need clearer evidence.Monstrelet (talk) 08:47, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

This small paragraph is really odd in an article that refers to 15th - 16th century refugee-mercenary soldiers from the Balkans occupied by ottomans. The term "stratiotai" in various spellings was contiuously used from classical Greek through roman and byzantine periods and a separate article is needed on them. The pre-15th c. stratiotai have certain differences compared to the post-15th c. ones. For example, in certain periods the former were timariots with the duty to collect taxes by the peasants and give it the state.
I suggest we delete this paragraph and reserve it for a future article "Stratiotai".--Euzen (talk) 13:49, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Agreed, but we still have the issue of Stratioti suddenly appearing fully formed around 1470. Ideally we need something on the post Byzantine context which gave rise to these troops, who could be signed up as mercenaries in Western Europe.Monstrelet (talk) 08:11, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

This source on stratioti in Byzantine Empire (Simpozijum Srednjevekovne sekcije Arheološkog društva Jugoslavije: Varvarske migracije u jugoistočnoj Evropi i njihov odnos prema autohtonoj populaciji. Referati i koreferati. Prilep, 1970) says (translated from Serbian by me):

"... significant economic measures contributed rebuilding of the economic power of (Byzantine - added by Antidiskriminator) empire, on the first place of the agriculture. Precisely, stratiots were obliged not only to cultivate the land in the period of peace and to fulfill their military obligations in period of war, but also to organize land cultivation when they serve in the army. It should be underlined that stratioti were of different ethnicities."

--Antidiskriminator (talk) 20:16, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

Stable version

I thank you for complimenting my work ZjarriRrethues and hope that you continue making good faith edits. Now if I'm not mistaken, your main grievance with my contributions is the removal of certain sentences and sources. Please bear in mind that no sources were removed, but that the the majority of the sources/citations I incorporated into the entry do not fully concur with the sentences I edited. Prior to my edits, the text in the first paragraph of the 'History' section seemed to appeal to only one perspective. Technically, the history of the entry is checkered with 'conflicts of perspective' none of which have brought any benefit to the quality of the entry.

To make a long story short, the changes I made to the article are necessary for three straightforward reasons: 1) balanced content, 2) professional content, 3) simple/intelligible content. Your good faith edits may have, in actuality, decreased the quality of the entry. And since my purpose on this project is quality management, I intend to restore the article to the version containing my edits. I will perform this action only once and write the following in my edit summary: "Stable Version: If quality of entry is diminished, please restore to this version. For more details, please consult discussion page. Thank you. [Inspector] No. 108". After I restore the article, I will cease making any further edits.

And as much as I'd love to participate in the "scintillating" debates here, I have no intention of quarreling with you or with anyone for that matter. Have a splendid day. :-) No. 108 (talk) 05:09, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

At least one source was removed. Btw please read WP:COPYVIO, because we can't quote large amounts of content from authors.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 13:14, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Technically, one citation, Floria, was accidentally removed (my apologies) from the first paragraph of the 'History' section even though the affiliated source was added to the roster. At the same time, however, the removal may have actually benefited the entry's quality given that non-English sources are difficult to verify by English-language readers unless translated (this applies to all non-English sources; please consult WP:SOURCES -> Accessibility -> Non-English sources).

As for WP:COPYVIO, its use in this case appears somewhat moot given that the Pappas quote was still present in the citations roster prior to my edits. And if I'm not mistaken, the sentences that certain COI's (of whom I don't care to name) insist on keeping are derived verbatim from the Pappas quote in clear violation of WP:COPYVIO. In any case, I cannot affirm any expertise on cyberspace policies and have little to no incentive towards fully comprehending the somewhat "Byzantine" nature of Wikipedia guidelines. All I know is that quality management is generally incompatible with COI edits that appear to exclude historically relevant facts in favor of unbalanced content. Moreover, if the ultimate goal of any policy citation is to preserve COI edits, then I'm afraid any effort towards providing readers with an impartially stable version is for naught.

Currently, the entry's level of quality has improved (aesthetically perhaps). But the article's development into a professional reference guide is, simply put, obstructed by unbalanced content. If and when the various COI's "migrate" elsewhere, I will gladly address the issues you've raised ZjarriRrethues and establish a more cogent version. And as always, please continue making good faith edits. Thank you. :-)

[This response is explicitly made for the sake of the record and not for the sake of debate.] No. 108 (talk) 18:29, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Carabins

Euzen please don't add fringe and outdated sources from the 19th century to change the obvious etymology of words like carabins, which has the same etymology as carabiniers.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 08:46, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

Zar don't tell me what to do in WP. I know that you dislike everything that is GREEK but you cannot change history. If Sathas is "fringe" and "outdated" (provide sources on that), then other sources based on him (e.g. Pappas) are fringe & outdated, too. Be prepared for more Sathas, the only writer, as far as I am aware, that has studied stradioti extensively. He is cited by many. Article carabiniers does not say anything on the origin of the word. It just makes a cyclical explanation (points to carbine where there is no etymology). If you have other etymology please add it. And keep googling for "Albanian, stratioti".--Euzen (talk) 15:10, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

@Euzen, stop personal attacks. Just explain where do you see the relation between Stratioti and Carbine?! Carbine was invented centuries after their disappearance from the battlefield and AFAIK (and we all agree I hope) Stratioti never used Carbine rifles. The terms Stratioti and Carbine are not related. Aigest (talk) 16:03, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

For what it is worth, this is what the OED says about the origins of carabin

[a. F. carabin (16th c. in Littré), of disputed origin: Roquefort alleges an earlier calabrin, according to Diez, f. calabre an ancient engine of war, the name calabrin being transferred from the man who worked that to those who carried these fire-arms; but Littré inclines to see in it a transl. of Calabr{imac}nus Calabrian.

 Calabre, also Pr. and OSp., is regarded by Diez as repr. medL. chadabula an engine for throwing stones, earlier catabola, a. Gr. {kappa}{alpha}{tau}{alpha}{beta}{omicron}{lambda}{ghacu} overthrow, destruction.]  Monstrelet (talk) 19:29, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Alabarderos

I have reverted this [12] edit. The claim of an etymological connection between ancient Caria and 16th-century Spanish cavallery unit belongs to the category of "exceptional claims that require exceptional sourcing"; it is prima facie implausible. Especially since the source cited, Stephanus of Byzantium, is quite obviously irrelevant (he lived in the 6th century AD, so how could he conceivably be a source about Renaissance military?) According to Spanish etymological dictionaries [13], alabarderos has the obvious derivation that anybody with a scattering of Spanish could have guessed: it's from alabarda, the Spanish form of halberd (which, in turn, is probably derived from a Germanic word). Whatever it is that Sathas is saying, since we already had some rather outlandish speculation ascribed to him in the case of "carabiniers", we should be taking any further references to him with more than a grain of salt. Fut.Perf. ☼ 23:01, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Update: just to note that I've now figured out that Stephanus is indeed the author who provides the Carian gloss for the ancient place name Alabanda ([14]); beyond that he is of course quite irrelevant. Fut.Perf. ☼ 23:12, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for your comments on history of words, but I wonder who gives you the authority to filtrate the informations added in articles and delete what you don't like. All alternative views must be displayed and, apart from you, there are more readers around who can also judge and interpret information. Untill you find that "Germanic word probably alabarda derives from" we can leave this unique in english etymological testimony, possibly with "according to ... possibly ...". Sathas is the only author, as far as I know, who studied in length the history of stratioti and you are unlikely to challenge him. Btw, article halberd needs some of your intervention, as reference No 3 links to an unsourced text, written by a person with no detailed CV but advertised as "the author of some twenty books. His key genre is history, but he has also published novels, children's books and academic works on prints and printmaking ... trustee of various art galleries etc". Stick around for more Sathas. He is a hell of a source on this subject. Translation to english is my courtesy to WP.--Euzen (talk) 21:33, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

deleted greek name

Why an albanian wiki-user deleted the Greek name version of Stratioti? --Prodebugger (talk) 20:24, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

Probably because it appears to contradict the line below, which says that the article isn't about all uses of the Greek word in the Middle Ages. I've slightly re-edited the text to take away the contradiction. Probably could be slightly tidier but do you think this works? Monstrelet (talk) 08:06, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

Stratioti in England, 16th c.

I post here a block of text and references that annoys some users and frequently delete it. What they don't like? The famous phrase "We are children of the Greeks" ("Έλληνες" in the original Gr. text of Nicandros Nucius).

The problem would appear to be undue emphasis on a small incident - it is not clear what the detailed quote adds and overuse of quotes from primary sources are considered by some editors to be against wiki protocols. However, the aggressive way in which the deletions have been handled seems inappropriate and disproportionate to the "offense" of including the extensive quote. Please consider carefully how this issue is handled as this constant restoration/delete cycle is likely to risk someone being banned. Monstrelet (talk) 19:51, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

ENGLAND
In 1514, Henry VIII of England, employed units of Albanian and Greek stradioti during the battles with the Kingdom of Scotland. In the 1540s, Duke Edward Seymour of Somerset used Albanian stradioti in his campaign against Scotland.
An account of the presence of stratioti in Britain is given by Nikandros Noukios of Corfu. In about 1545 Noukios followed as a non-combatant the English invasion of Scotland where the English forces included Greeks from Argos under the leadership of Thomas of Argos whose 'Courage, and prudence, and experience of wars' was lauded by the Corfiot traveller. Thomas was sent by Henry VIII to Boulogne in 1546, as commander of a battalion of 550 Greeks The King expressed his appreciation to Thomas for his leadership in Boulogne and rewarded him with a good sum of money.

Notes

References

Thanks Monstrelet for your interest. Since you are keen in medieval history, you have probably noticed the attempt of some users (about 4 of them in rotation) to construct an "Albanian" air around Stratioti. For, example, in the section "England", notice how they use the ref to Paul E. J. Hammer (p. 21) by erasing the other nations of mercenaries (Spanish, Italian, Germans) leaving only "Albanians". My additional info (which doesn't make this section longer than the others) may be useful to the reader as it is complementary to Hammer and others. It is based on an eye-witness source and is verifiable online.

The Albanians learned to read and write about 80 years ago. They have now become quite good at it and are making up for lost time, trying to convince us that the whole world is albanian. Unfortunately none of the old sources support anything much of what they say. And of course they never wrote anything worth mentioning in their entire existence so we have to suffer their "interpretation" of what would otherwise be very clear sources. Their delusion that references to Greeks, means greek orthodox is typical ignorant nonsense. All the old sources starting from Anna Komnene and William of Apulia in the 11th century knew exactly which races inhabited the Balkans. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Thenewinn (talk • contribs) 21:53, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

Perfectly solid and scholarly but then the need for the dig at the Albanians at the end. What this article needs is to take broad approach to the military phenomenon of the Stradiot and to accept that stradiots came from areas which are now in both Greece and Albania. Take it as a challenge to bring this important Balkan contribution to Renaissance military history to an global English speaking audience, rather than a competition between Greek and Albanian editors.--Monstrelet (talk) 12:37, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

Ok, agreed, a bit if frustration spilling over. So would it not be useful to investigate the links between the Byzantine and Norman mercenary armies and the emergence of the Stradiot? You don't suppose that the nomads of highland Albania just emerged as fully formed highly militarised societies within a couple of generations? The answer to a lot of the questions posed in the talk pages, lies with the battles of Alexius and Robert Guiscard in the 11 th Century. The siege of Dyrrachium in 1081 would be a good start. You will find that the defence of the city was entrusted to Georgios Palaiologos. It is I believe one of the most prominent Stradiot names. Now I am not an experienced editor. I don't know how to bring forward these connections without being accused of original research. Its just I tend to read the old Authors rather than simply relying on the interpretation of the moderns. Thenewinn (talk) 12:15, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

Another good source of investigation is the Catepanate of Italy. You will find amongst the names listed as Catepans in the 11 Century, those of Exaugustos Boioannes and Michael Protospatharios. There could be more than a tenuous link between these names and those of well known Stradiot clans in later years - Buas and Spata .Another famous Catepan was Georgios Maniakes. His army, (a ragtag of Greeks, Normans, Italians, Varangians and others) fresh from defeating the Arabs in Sicily, deserted and stayed in the Balkans following his campaign to usurp the Byzantine Emperor Constantine IX.Thenewinn (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 12:39, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

Personally, I don't doubt there is a connection between the troops of the Later Byzantine Empire in the Balkans and the 15th century Stratiot. But I'm not sure I would like to try to string that through from the 11th. century. The situation of the collapse of Empire, the coming of the Ottomans and the impact of that on Balkan society in the 14th - 15th centuries is perhaps a more immediate genesis. However, the danger of trying to piece it together yourself is the constant threat of WP:OR. Without the use of good modern secondary sources on military developments in this area, creating something that can be defended against editors with a different interpretation is going to be difficult. --Monstrelet (talk) 15:13, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

It is a challenge but one that would be worthy of further investigation. And don't forget that the Turks were also present as mercenaries in Alexius' army in 1081. They didnt miraculously appear in the 14th century either. The Palaiologos link is definitely a smoking gun. Thenewinn (talk) 00:17, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

By the way. Is the editor of this article a historian or an enthusiast? Would be worth knowing. The fact that we have to rely on modern secondary sources would seem to imply, with almost mathematical certainty, that anyone's propaganda is valid as long as its up to date.Thenewinn (talk) 00:33, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

You misunderstand the role of editors in wikipedia somewhat. This article does not have an assigned editor, just a collection of interested individuals from across the world who will put time into maintaining and developing it (including you and me). WP:OR restricts the amount to which we can make hypotheses from primary materials (see particularly the section on sources). We must therefore rely on published views of experts in the field. There is also a preference for modern scholarship over older scholarship, which tends to be overused because of the availability of out of copyright books on the internet. That is not to say older works can't be used but there is a preference for some modern commentary on those views (even if it is agree)because the encyclopedia should reflect current thinking about the subject. Hope this helps clarify things. Monstrelet (talk) 08:33, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

Thanks that helps. However, I now I am even more concerned that a number of articles can be twisted to suit editor agendas. It helps to explain the endless wrangles on the talk pages. The material in this article seems to have been mostly lifted from an American University researcher called Pappas. Surely there are other valid sources. Is Anna Komnene's Alexiad not considered a valid source? If I use it to state some historical facts, that can be cross referenced from Norman Sources, is that acceptable? e.g I don't think anyone disputes that the battle of Dyrrachium took place, or what the composition of the armies was? I think highlighting a long tradition of mercenary armies in the service of various Powers of the time will enrich the article.Thenewinn (talk) 12:13, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

I should also note that I am perfectly able to make the case without sounding like I'm pushing a modern Greek or Albanian POV. Personally I find the obsession of modern Balkan editors with any fact that will retrospectively support their current petty disputes quite annoying. It distorts the evidence of the primary sources and is politically motivated. Their ancestors would not have given them the time of day. Unfortunately there are still parts of the article that sound Iike they´re pandering to modern nationalist opinion. For example it talks about hellenization of Stratioti when at the same time it states they were up to 80% albanian. Is this from Papas? It is illogical in a period when the Byzantine empire was fading into oblivion and the Ottomans ruled the roost. The Stratioti wrote to each other in Greek and initiated Greek churches and made reference to ancient Greek heroes and yet we find it hard to accept the way they self identified. It would be like arguing that the 18th century English were not really English but French or Norwegians, since that's where their ancestors came from. Does every post 1066 article about England have to talk about anglicisation and mention that the individuals concerned were Norwegian? Is it not a bit absurd? anyway I'm probably overstating it. it's a minor article but I think it could be better.Thenewinn (talk) 19:28, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

Percentage

@TU-nor:I don't know why you deleted the 80% of Albanian stratioti.The source says:"Most modern, as well as a good number of early authors have indicated that the stradioti were Albanian. This is true to a certain extent but has to be qualified. A Greek author made a study of the names of stradioti found in the most extensive documentary collection of materials dealing with the stradioti and found that some 80% of the names were of Albanian origin, while the rest were of Greek origin".

Also it says:" This investigation found that indeed many of the names were Albanian, but a good number of the names particularly those of officers, were of Greek origin".It doesn't say that 80% claim isn't true.Rolandi+ (talk) 16:30, 13 August 2015 (UTC)

No, it doesn't say that 80% is false, but neither does it say that it is true. You cannot use Pappas as a source for "80% of the names were Albanian", because he does not say that. Pappas just quotes an unnamed author, but when he presents his own findings, he says "Many". --T*U (talk) 16:51, 13 August 2015 (UTC)

However, nothing in what he says suggests that he fundamentally disagrees with the gist of the findings of the earlier study he is quoting, so while he may not be endorsing the exact figure of "80%" (which, after all, was never claimed to be a figure valid for the totality of the population but the figure found in one particular statistical sample), he is evidently not contradicting the implication that the 80% figure is approximately representative, so to my mind "most" (rather than a mere "many") is an absolutely fair summary of what he reports. Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:04, 13 August 2015 (UTC)

Agreed! --T*U (talk) 17:17, 13 August 2015 (UTC)

Yes this is the best way!Rolandi+ (talk) 17:31, 13 August 2015 (UTC)

Done! --T*U (talk) 18:05, 13 August 2015 (UTC)

Okay, glad we've been able to sort this one out. Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:27, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

The unnamed author is Kostas Mpires.This is the source: So there is no reason not to include the 80% Albanian names..Rolandi+ (talk) 17:02, 13 August 2015 (UTC)

Hello To editors Rolandi+, TU-nor and Future Perfect at Sunrise: I noticed this discussion which mentions Albanian names. I am interested to expand the article which covers this topic. You agreed that in Italy "The stradiots were for the most part Albanians" because the source says that "80% of the names were Albanian". Does anybody know what were those Albanian names? I would really appreciate answer to this question so I could use it to expand the above mentioned corresponding article. All the best.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 17:59, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

References

Name order

As has been agreed upon long ago, there is a consensus that the stratioti were mostly Albanian (80%). The rest were slavs, italians and greek. The name stratiotes can be mentioned up front because of it being used in biblipgraphy, then albanian, greek and italian. I dont have the source but it seems Pappas gives 2 theories on the names origin, so saying that the greek one is its orgin is not neutralAlltan (talk) 12:04, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

We need to rid ourselves of the misunderstanding that mentioning or not mentioning a non-English name in the lead of an article is somehow a symbolic badge of recognition of how important a topic is for a certain nationality or how much a certain nationality is involved in a topic. That is simply of no relevance whatsoever. The only thing that matters is, which names are important for an English-speaking reader to understand the topic? Greek and Italian, in this case, are important because they are part of the explanation of the modern term in English. They were also, presumably, the primary names under which these soldiers appear in the historical sources. Albanian isn't, because Albanian was barely used in writing at the time. We have no reason to even believe that they would have called themselves that, in their own language. It might very well be just a modern calque in Albanian. Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:31, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

Pappas writes The question of the etymology of the appellation stradioti is further complicated by the various spellings and versions of the term in the primary sources. The few Greek sources, such as the Andragathêmata tou Merkouriou Boua, use stratiotes/stratiotai, the Greek word for soldier.[16] Latin sources, such as the dispatches of Jacomo Barbarigo, use the variant stratiotos/stratiotorum or strathiotos/strathiotorum[17] The bulk of primary sources in Italian, such as Coriolano Cippico, Marino Sanuto and Venetian state documents, use stradiotto/stradioti, adopted by this paper, or strathiotto/strathioti.[18] French sources, such as Philip de Comines, use the variation estradiot/estradiots.[19] Although arguments on the side of the wayfarer theory predominate, the fact that some of the older Latin sources from the early 15th century use a variation of the Greek stratiotes tends to make this writer favor the "soldier" theory. There are only few Greek contemporary sources which make mention of stratiotes and outside Greek scholarship the term is considered more likely to come from Italian strada. Isn't it more WP:DUE to discuss the name at its specific section and leave only the historically relevant - regardless of etymology - Italian term on the lede? The other historically relevent term seems to be French estradiots which produced Spanish estradiotes. In Croatian, it is used as stradjot. --Maleschreiber (talk) 18:26, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

I agree with FPs statement, however Maleschreiber has a very valid point. It looks like the main source used in the article bets on Italian as the language of origin. Moving other variants into the name section seems like a very smart idea Alltan (talk) 21:32, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

Uhm, what? If by the "main source" you mean the passage from Pappas that Maleschreiber just quoted above, then he's clearly saying the opposite of what you ascribe to him: …make this writer favor the "soldier" theory clearly means he favors the derivation from Greek. As for the lead sentence, we need the Greek form as least as long as we're using the form with "t", Stratioti, as our article title, because that form can't be understood without it. Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:01, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

I had this passage in mind:"Although arguments on the side of the wayfarer theory predominate...". Maybe I'm missing something but since the Name section mentions the italian version could orignate from 'strada' which means wayfarer, I thought the text meant most theories ascribe Italian strada as the origin. But idk maybe I am misunderstanding it. Alltan (talk) 22:36, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

@Future Perfect at Sunrise: On google scholar, Stradioti 402 results vs. Stratioti 238 (1990-2021). I think that a move discussion might be necessary.--Maleschreiber (talk) 20:10, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

Google Books: 8790 hist for "Stratioti" vs. 2070 for Stradioti. And this is for English language sources, 1990-2021. So, not a chance. Khirurg (talk) 16:33, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

By the way, is there a so much as a single source that "Stratiotët" is a native term and not just a modern calque? Khirurg (talk) 16:37, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

Google books is not a reliable search engine. "Stratioti" results ends in the 12th page. The total results are 12X7=84, not 8790. Some of the results are engine errors. I'll start a discussion.--Maleschreiber (talk) 22:06, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

Google Books is not a reliable search engine? First time I see that one. Do you have a source to base this on, or are we supposed to just accept this bare assertion? Google Books and Google Scholar are products of the same company, so what holds for one, holds for the other. Btw it looks like you "forgot" to mention that "Stradioti" stops after page 7 ([15]), so even if we take your claim about "stratioti stopping at page 12 at face value (you haven't provided any evidence for this, but let's pretend), that's still 2 to 1 in favor of stratioti. Khirurg (talk) 22:20, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

Btw, your Google Scholar search is flawed because you did not filter for language, and many of the results are Italian language publications, which naturally would use "stradioti" [16]. You cannot use non-English language sources to establish common usage in English. Khirurg (talk) 22:24, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

• I think that in a discussion we had at another RM I highlighted the errors of first page results by Google Books.Stratiodi ends at p. 11 (77 results) but with fewer errors. There are few publications which use Stradioti in Italian in the results and there are results in French and other languages which use stradioti. The same "background noise" is true in relation to the use of Stratioti in Greek sources and some publications in Italian and Serbo-Croatian. The other background noise addition to Stratioti results is the surname Stratioti and a street named Agnostou Stratioti. The ratio Stradioti/Stratioti is the same but with fewer results. I don't think that there is an English common term.--Maleschreiber (talk) 22:46, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

Controversial addition

Considering the nationality of various Stratioti added here [[17]][[18]] the issue remains highly controversial as its displayed in several correspondent biographies. It is POV to label various personalities as Greek or Albanian while their ancestors migrated 2, 3, or 4 centuries earlier to western Europe. The addition of red links is another controversial issue. We can't conclude if a personality passes wp:N threshold without even the existence of a correspondent article.18:55, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

Giovanni Renesi, Theodore Bua, Demetrio Capuzzimati all are described as Albanians and were first or second generation migrants. They didn't migrate 2, 3 or 4 centuries earlier to western Europe and they didn't have a different identity. Side comment: The Bua, Renesi, Capuzzimati in Italy still speak Albanian today. It's not a long forgotten identity which contemporary bibliography is putting forward as a historical classification. It's the living history of hundreds of families.--Maleschreiber (talk) 19:52, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

Exactly, only a part of those can be considered Albanians. Naming them Albanians altogether is POV.Alexikoua (talk) 20:31, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

I restored one part to the stable version. Mercurio Bua was born in Nauplia belonging to the Albanian family of Bua, this is uncontroversial and you need consensus to change it. – Βατο (talk) 12:42, 18 April 2021 (UTC)

@Alexikoua: this edit needs consensus. Discuss it here, please. – Βατο (talk) 10:54, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

Requested move 17 April 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: No consensus to move. Editors don't agree which spelling is the WP:COMMONNAME and therefore likely to be most WP:RECOGNIZABLE. (non-admin closure) (t · c) buidhe 13:42, 26 April 2021 (UTC)

---

Stratioti → Stradioti –

• In historical sources and archival material, "Stradioti" is the term used by most sources. Stratioti is used by few Greek sources (see Pappas: The question of the etymology of the appellation stradioti is further complicated by the various spellings and versions of the term in the primary sources. The few Greek sources, such as the Andragathêmata tou Merkouriou Boua, use stratiotes/stratiotai, the Greek word for soldier.[16] Latin sources, such as the dispatches of Jacomo Barbarigo, use the variant stratiotos/stratiotorum or strathiotos/strathiotorum[17] The bulk of primary sources in Italian, such as Coriolano Cippico, Marino Sanuto and Venetian state documents, use stradiotto/stradioti, adopted by this paper, or strathiotto/strathioti.[18] French sources, such as Philip de Comines, use the variation estradiot/estradiots.
• In contemporary sources - according to Google Scholar - Stradioti is used in 402 publications vs. Stratioti 238 (1990-2021) Most sources used in the article use Stradioti. --Maleschreiber (talk) 22:32, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
• Support (as nom) --Maleschreiber (talk) 22:34, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
• Support move. Very accurate assesment by MS. The move would reflect the scientific consensus and thus be more informative to the reader. In my humble opinion Alltan (talk) 23:00, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose The nom has failed to make a case that stradioti is the term used by most sources. It is not only extremely unusual to base a move request on a single source as the nom has done, but the source used has absolutely no bearing on what is the common English usage. The "few Greek sources" that Pappas refers to are WP:PRIMARY medieval Greek sources that are discussed in the context of the origin of the term, and have absolutely nothing to do with common English usage. In fact the claim that stratioti is used by few Greek sources is absolutely baffling in a modern context, since even a quick search of Google Books shows thousands of hits for "stratioti", in a 4:1 ratio with "stratioti" (8790 hist for "Stratioti" vs. 2070 for Stradioti). Even accounting for metadata errors in Google Books, the 4:1 ratio holds in favor of "Stratioti". The sole evidence presented by the nom is a flawed Google Scholar search, in which the majority of matches are non-English language publications, and a significant fraction of which are Italian, which naturally biases those results in favor of "stradioti". The nom has thus failed to make a compelling case that the article should be moved. This is one of the weakest move requests I have seen in a long time. Khirurg (talk) 23:08, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
• I'm going to guess that reason the nom is avoiding restricting the Google Scholar results to English language only, is that once this is done there are 122 results for "stratioti" [19] and 141 results for "stradioti" [20], in other words, basically a tie. And even within those 140, some non-English language publications manage to sneak in there(e.g., [21] [22]; the latter is something about "studying abroad in Uzbekistan" or something like that). Thus the whole case of "stradioti" being more common in English usage falls apart. Khirurg (talk) 23:19, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

I haven't taken into account "English only" results because there aren't enough sources to establish a common name in English. There isn't a 4:1 in favor of Stratioti as there aren't 8790 results. There are 12 pages of results for Stratioti. I can't link it because I can't get a different url from page to page. There are 11 pages of results for Stradioti. Both have engine errors because many books don't mention Stratioti or Stradioti. More errors seem to exist about Stratioti. The overall ratio is similar on Google Books but it has fewer results than Google Scholar. The fraction of the use of Stradioti in contemporary Italian sources is similar to the fraction of the use of Stratioti in Italian sources. It's a small fraction overall for both. There are also sources in Serbo-Croatian which use Stradioti or Stratioti, 9 sources use Stratioti as a reference to a street name in Greece and some use it as a surname. Even if we remove manually all "background noise", the ratio between Stradioti:Stratioti remains that of the figures in the nomination. The title Stratioti doesn't reflect common use in contemporary sources in publications about Stradioti. There are some articles which use as titles variants used in historical sources and to use a titles which is historically faithful is legitimate but stratioti isn't used in most historical and archival sources. Side comment: To prevent cluttering, while the discussion progresses, we should probably avoid the repetition of arguments.--Maleschreiber (talk) 23:42, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

The last unambiguous match to "Stradioti" on Google Books is on page 7, not page 11 [23]. The match on page 11 you are referring to is an obvious false positive [24]. So even by your arguments, the number of matches for "Stratioti" outnumbers "Stradioti" by 2 roughly to 1. Regarding Google Scholar, 100+ hits is plenty for establishing common usage. Google Scholar results are dead even. Non-English language hits are useless, as this is the English wikipedia. You have completely failed to make a compelling case for the article to be moved, as you have provided no evidence for more common usage of "stradioti" in English language sources. Side comment: Please indent your comments properly to avoid making the discussion difficult to follow. Khirurg (talk) 01:14, 18 April 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME. The common term which is what the majority of the sources are using, is Stratioti, not Stradioti.

Considering that this Page Move request contrasts WP:COMMONNAME, and considering the nominator's recorded past editorial bias against the Greek culture in other articles, I can't help but wonder whether the Page Move from a more common name of Greek origin to a less common name of a different language is purely a coincidence. I want to WP:ASSUMEGOODFAITH however, and pretend this is just as innocent as it appears to be in first glance. But this is difficult, considering that the nominator is way too experienced to just not know what WP:COMMONNAME is. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 01:10, 18 April 2021 (UTC)

SilentResident while I personally don't particularly care on this one, it's worth noting that the choice here is not a "Greek vs. Albanian" one. Rather, it is essentially "Italian vs. Albanian+Greek". Based on google with "stradiotë(t)" vs. "stratiotë(t)", both forms exist in Albanian... but Albanian clearly prefers stratiotë, by nearly a factor of 3 (hence probably why Albanian wiki uses stratiotë)ː

• "Stratiotët -wiki" is 3360 [25] vs. ""stradiotët -wiki" has 1170 [26].
• the difference is less for indefinite forms but still tangible :2630 for stratiotë [27], versus 1390 for stradiotë [28])
• the difference in scholarly articles in Albanian is larger : 23 for stratiotë (definite: 15), 4 for stradiotë (def: only 1).
• But the situation in Albanian (nor Greek) is not what we see in English, where stradioti has long has hadd the advantage for most of the time material on the stra(d/t)ioti was being published, with one brief blip around 2005: see ngram [29]. --Calthinus (talk) 23:27, 18 April 2021 (UTC)

Yes, I had noticed that as well, and found it ironic. But it only makes it even worse (regarding SR's valid point). As for Ngrams, it doesn't make any sense (the HUGE peak at 1830 for one) and is notoriously unreliable. Ngrams contains all kinds of junk and is highly prone to error. If we switch to "American English" [30] we get wildly different results, in favor of "stratioti" in the last few years. Khirurg (talk) 04:35, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

I wouldn't call that wildly different. It's largely the same -- overall stradioti dominates, with blips of stratioti. Of course, there's no difference between the two in spoken American English they both use [ɾ] ([ʃtɹæɾi(j)owɾi], roughly), which is actually more like Greek/Albanian r than t or d.--Calthinus (talk) 20:50, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

• Support as per nomination!--Lorik17 (talk) 02:22, 18 April 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose per the points addressed above by fellow editor Khirurg. Demetrios1993 (talk) 04:24, 18 April 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose per valid arguments given by Khirurg. Macedonian (talk) 06:37, 18 April 2021 (UTC)
• Support There is a claim above that on GB there are 8790 hits for "Stratioti" vs. 2070 for Stradioti for a time period since 1990. Totally untrue. Click the links and count the results: 119 for "Stratioti" and 115 for "Stradioti". Both results include a large number of cases of non-English language sources (especially Italian ones) and usage of the word as a surname or sth other than the subject of this article. Those cases are very obviously more frequent for "Stratioti", so in that case "Stradioti" is slightly more used that "Stratioti" is. For results concerning the 21th century i.e. the last 20 years, there are 70 hits for "Stratioti" and 75 hits for "Stradioti". Cases of non-English language sources and usage of the words for things other than the subject of this article are again obviously more frequent in the case of "Stratioti". This is line with what Maleschreiber says in his rationale for the move proposal: the majority of this article's sources use "Stradioti". Ktrimi991 (talk) 10:50, 18 April 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose:: As already stated the nom has failed to make a case. In general google hits are overwhelmingly in favor of Stratioti.Alexikoua (talk) 10:55, 18 April 2021 (UTC)
• Support per arguments by Maleschreiber. Ahmet Q. (talk) 12:07, 18 April 2021 (UTC)
• Support as per nom. Furthermore, the main experts on the subject use the term 'Stradioti' in their English publications. – Βατο (talk) 12:14, 18 April 2021 (UTC)

Comment: Almost all Venetian primary sources prefer the "Stratioti" spelling.Alexikoua (talk) 08:34, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

This is English Wikipedia, and what matters are English language sources, not documents written in Venetian or Italian. Cheers, Ktrimi991 (talk) 09:21, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

@Ktrimi991: Pappas writes: The bulk of primary sources in Italian, such as Coriolano Cippico, Marino Sanuto and Venetian state documents, use stradiotto/stradioti, adopted by this paper, or strathiotto/strathioti. Alexikoua is wrong..--Maleschreiber (talk) 14:49, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

Did I say Italian? Don't put words in my mouth please.Alexikoua (talk) 16:00, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

The bulk of primary sources in Italian such as Coriolano Cippico, Marino Sanuto and Venetian state documents , use stradiotto/stradioti --Maleschreiber (talk) 16:13, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose: Case proposed for moving is weak as described above.Pipsally (talk) 11:51, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Wrong use of BRD (M. Bua as Albanian)

It has been wrongly argued that this addition is a stable version [[31]] nevertheless in fact its part of brand new addition [[32]]. In simple words such controversial additions need consensus in talkpage first.Alexikoua (talk) 17:02, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

@Iaof: Should this kind of edit summary hmmm [[33]]... considered a productive argument? Alexikoua (talk) 17:07, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

OK - I have to ask: why is it controversial? He is a historical figure whose family is known. Why is it a controversial addition to write that the son of Peter Bua was Albanian? You added to the article some sources which you picked because they use greco- in an ambiguous way (he was born in modern Greece), but the ambiguity you're trying to imply isn't there in bibliography and it can't be part of the article about Mercurio Bua because everything is known about his family, his father and every other one of his relatives. It's WP:CHERRY picking against bibliography and reality on the ground. --Maleschreiber (talk)

@Alexikoua read the bibliography and stop your usual Balkan-nationalistic attempts to remove everything you don't like. Thanks! Lorik17 (talk) 17:14, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

There are several in-depth sources that specifically mention M. Bua as a Greek Stratioti captain or Greek-Albanian. Unfortunately WP:CHERRY applies to you in this case and this part should stay neutral without any national POV you want to promote. No wonder this part didn't mention M. Bua as Albanian and it's a recent addition simply in wp:ILIKEIT fashion.Alexikoua (talk) 17:20, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

@Alexikoua: that content was added on March 20, 2020, and not by me; in other words, your claim is false. Mercurio Bua's family was Albanian, he was the son of Peter Bua of Nauplia, it is a historical fact. The sources you added mention his name in passing, they don't provide historical evidence of his early life. Use bibliography correctly, please. – Βατο (talk) 17:26, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

His father was Peter Bua and he belonged to the Bua family. It's rather obvious that we shouldn't read Greek as something different than a geographical reference in passing. There are sources which call Krokodeilos Kladas an Albanian in reference probably to his close alliance with Albanian captains and the fact that he led Albanian soldiers in battle. Does it make it a legitimate use of bibliography to WP:CHERRY farm them to POV push for articles to not call Greek someone whose father and family were not Albanian? I think that other editors will show the required responsible attitude and will not engage in bad use of bibliography.--Maleschreiber (talk) 17:34, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

Yet again wp:IDONTLIKE it and selective use of WP:CHERRY by overephasizing in a purely national version. We don't know him personally and all we have is a number of specialist wp:RS and some of them call him Greek, others Albanian and others Greek-Albanian. In fact those source that mention him as Greek are in-depth specialist publications about the Stratioti. The neutral version should be restored since bibliography isn't in favor of an Albanian M. Bua. Hopefully a neutral editor can understand that this new addition is unacceptable.Alexikoua (talk) 17:47, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

Bibliography is not a collection of quotes in passing which may contradict each other without any limits. Hard facts are the limit. His father was Peter Bua of the Bua clan and Mercurio Bua was born in Napflia, present-day Greece. It's not an opinion about the construction of identities- it's a hard historical fact. There is a "specialist WP:RS" source: Floristán, José M. (2019). "Stradioti albanesi al servizio degli Asburgo di Spagna (I): le famiglie albanesi Bua, Crescia e Renesi". Shêjzat – Pleiades (1–2): 3–46. about the Bua. If other editors searched for "Albanian" + (insert Greek figure) and insisted that what they found - regardless of contextual use of the term Albanian - can overturn hard facts, it would be very bad use of bibliography and would get many others involved in edit wars without any functional meaning. Involved editors know it and the fact that almost no disputes exist lately depends on a rational understanding of use of bibliography. Thank you. --Maleschreiber (talk) 18:02, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

You are simply wp:CHERRY in order to promote ethnic purity scenarios for M. Bua. Nevertheless in the 15th century facts were not that clear in terms of ethnic identity, as specialist and in-depth publications on the stratioti offer a different view on his identity (Greek or Greek-Albanian is frequently used to describe M. Bua). Nevertheless the Buas had migrated from Albania from the early 14th century. It's too povish to claim that Albanian identity was still dominant as Pappas also noted.Alexikoua (talk) 18:17, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

• A discussion presupposes bibliography which contradicts what is known as a hard fact. Peter Bua is a historical figure discussed in historical sources in a particular way. Thank you. Side comment: There are many Bua in Arbereshe settlements today. We're not discussing about some ancient tribe. --Maleschreiber (talk) 18:26, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

Side comment 2: @Alexikoua: trying to clutter the article with as many sources you can find that use the term Greek in relation to his place of birth will not change that at most we can read it as a geographical reference. You can add another source which calls him Italian - apparently because he lived his entire life in Italian society - : In all, the Duke had 24 companies of gendarmerie, four of light horse, and four of 'stradiots' or 'Argoulets'—still called 'Albanians' (the last time that this name is found used) under an Italian named Mercurio Bua[34] It doesn't change the hard facts and what bibliography discusses.--Maleschreiber (talk) 18:35, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

Yet again wp:CHERRY. In-depth bibliography is against an ethnically pure version of M. Bua and his identity isn't that clear. Indeed hard fact is that Mercurio Bua is not primarily known as Albanian in bibliography, no wonder the stable version avoided the label Albanian. Arguments that some of his ancestors originated from Albania centuries before prove nothing.Alexikoua (talk) 19:47, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

• Peter Bua, Theodore Bua and every other Bua were Albanians and were known as Albanian - just like Mercurio Bua. It's not centuries ago. The Bua are Arbereshe families today. WP:CHERRY farming sources and implying that his birthplace means something more than a geographical reference will cause many cross-article consistency problems. I think that editors who act responsibly understand the many problems that this particular use of bibliography will cause. Thank you.--Maleschreiber (talk) 21:50, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

Well, that's yet another way to claim ethnic purity for everyone that happens to have the same surname no matter where and when he lived. Please stick to the sources and they are many and in-depth on the subject of the Stratioti. Well many Bua's today happened to be non-Albanian (some of them Greek). WP:CHERRY farming is quite disruptive in this case especially in combination with this stubborn refusal to accept the wp:BRD proccess.Alexikoua (talk) 05:05, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

everyone that happens to have the same surname Mercurio Bua is not considered Albanian just because of the surname, but because his genealogy is known, he is the son of Peter Bua. no matter where and when he lived, also this info is well known, he was born in Nauplia in Morea to an Albanian family in the 15th century and moved to Italy in 1489. What is your evidence for an ethnic Greek affiliation? You have to provide sources giving a clear description of his early life, not sources that just mention him in passing with a general lable 'Greek', which can refer both to the geographical provenance or the religious rite. – Βατο (talk) 09:38, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

Claiming in general that everyone that happens to bear the same surname no matter in which century or in which counry he lived was Albanian (or of a any other specific bachground) is wp:OR since we also have plenty of sources condradicting this extraordinary view. It's widely sourced by in-depth scholarship on the subject that M. Bua was mentioned as Greek or Greek-Albanian. Research conducted by Zorzi etc deal specifically with the Stratioti of Nauplion: i.e. the birthplace of M. Bua the time he was born. Please stick to the sources. Mercurio Bua was born a Venecian citizen, that's enough for an introduction without the recent controverisal addition which needs concensus.Alexikoua (talk) 10:02, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

It is not an extraordinary view, it is a historical documented fact, and you can't dismiss it citing sources that just mention him in passing with the general lable "Greek". Again: you have to provide specific sources giving a full analysis of his early life supporting your claim of an ethnic Greek affiliation. His father Peter Bua was an Albanian leader in Nauplia, Mercurio was born to an Albanian family, and it is supported by strong historical evidence. – Βατο (talk) 10:34, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

Hmmm it's very weak as an argument to claim that research such as: Bugh, Glenn Richard (2002). "Andrea Gritti and the Greek Stradiots of Venice in the Early 16th Century". and Fattori, Niccolò. Migration and Community in the Early Modern Mediterranean: The Greeks of Ancona, 1510-1595, to name a few are not (?) specialized papers on the subject of Stratioti and their leaders and families (simply passing by? I don't thnig so). Also this academic paper [[35]] stresses that: Οι Μπούα διακήρυτταν την ελληνική τους καταγωγή, την οποία ανήγαν στους αρχαίους Έλληνες και υποστήριζαν, μάλιστα, ότι ήταν κατευθείαν απόγονοι του βασιλιά Πύρρου της Ηπείρου.. In terms of identity he wasn't Albanian, this simply ignores a mountain of strong evidence.Alexikoua (talk) 11:03, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

Pappas states also about personalities that had been hellenized, Mercurio Bua is mentioned by name in this case: by the middle of the 16th century there is evidence that many had become Hellenized or even Italianized. The most telling examples of this phenomenon are in the works of Tzanes Koronaios and Manoli Blessi. The former work is a long epic poem in vernacular Greek on the exploits of one of the most famous of stradioti, Merkourios Bouas, Well, those are strong facts.Alexikoua (talk) 22:04, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

There is direct evidence from Giovanni Andrea Saluzzo who liberated the Albanian Mercurio when he was captured in the Battle of Novara of 1500 after the defeat of the Duke of Milan Ludovico Sforza. Giovanni Andrea Saluzzo describes Mercurio as "arbanesso", "et lui hera arbaneso". Furthermore, it provides evidence that Mercurio used for himself the original Albanian endonym. – Βατο (talk) 22:43, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

Bato: Your claims needs a cn tag. On the other hand Koronaios, who provides the most detailed biography on the subject never mentions him as Albanian, on the contrary Mercurio is stated that he was proud of his Greek identity as ancestor of Pyrhus, Achiles etc. (Skanderbeg not mentioned).Alexikoua (talk) 22:52, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

I added the secondary source in the relevant article, you can check the primary source here [36]. – Βατο (talk) 23:02, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

This 19th century book does not claim that this can be interpreted that he was Albanian, please avoid wp:OR your point is extremely weak for this.Alexikoua (talk) 23:07, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

For the encyclopedic biography of a person historical evidence and well known genealogy is more important than a mythological origin from Pyrrhus. – Βατο (talk) 23:11, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

Did I say that M. Bua's biography was limited to mythical origins? No, don't put words in my mouth. There is a mountain of bibliography that rejects the view that this personality can be called Albanian, even Papas names him as a typical case of a hellenized stratioti.Alexikoua (talk) 23:25, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

Bibliography

I have asked from Greek editors to provide quotes for verification when they cite dissertations in Greek. The non-PDF format doesn't allow verification unless you OCR the particular cited page. Accessibility is very important.

• Alexikoua placed the edit: During the Ottoman–Venetian wars of the 15th and 16th century Stratioti units, both Albanian and Greeks served the Venetian forces, and interemarriages between those also occured.[25] Their contribution in the battlefield has been acknolwdged by Venice already from the First Ottoman–Venetian war (1463–1479).[26] The Venetian commander of Nauplion, Bartolomeo Minio (1479-1483), stressed that the Albanian stratioti were unreliable contrary to the Greek units which he considered loyal.
• The author writes in p.156: In Nafplion there were Greek and Albanian stratioti. The latter usually lived in separate villages from the Greeks. During the Ottoman–Venetian wars of the 15th and 16th century Stratioti units, both Albanian and Greeks served the Venetian forces, and intermarriages between them also occured. There were, however, also disputes between the two population groups. In 1525 it is reported by the City Administration that both the Greeks and the Albanians agreed to serve only under the orders of their own officers. The Venetian commander of Nauplion, Bartolomeo Minio (1479-1483), didn't trust the Albanians because they created problems unlike the Greeks who were more obedient. In the notes of the same page the author writes: Sometimes Bartholomeo Minio speaks favorably of the Albanian stratioti
• The author discusses a particular area and relations between different groups in a way which is different than what Alexikoua put forward.--Maleschreiber (talk) 16:51, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

Note - out of topic, but because it happened here - IMO, I would avoid calling editors by their ethnicity. Speaking as someone who used to do the same in the past. Perhaps the term "pro-Greek POV editors" is a better and more appropriate way of referring to them and is what I do too. Good day. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 17:26, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

I don't think that there is one "pro-Greek POV". There are many different POVs held by different Greeks, Albanians. I call some editors Greek in terms of the fact that they are Greek-speakers who cite publications in Greek. These publications are accessible to them without having to OCR>convert to PDF pages>translate them. Direct quotes improve accessibility for non-Greek editors..--Maleschreiber (talk) 17:36, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

In that case, I would use "editors who speak or have an understanding in Greek" instead as I find this more practical and inclusive. Greeks aren't the only Greek speakers here anyways. Sorry for cluttering your discussion, I won't reply anymore here, the last thing I want is an off topic derailing the discussion. :-) --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 18:03, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

Indeed, I hope this is the last time we see this editor reference editors by their ethnicity. Khirurg (talk) 23:18, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

Which part exactly is not supported in the quoted text? As I see everything supports the text (intermarriages, Minio's report, Stratiotis contribution etc.).

@Maleschreiber can you be more precise in your arguments? I assume your real concern here might be that the paper offers additional information (in footnotes etc) that can be added in this article but accusing me that my additions are not backed by appropriate RS is unacceptable. Alexikoua (talk) 20:15, 20 April 2021 (UTC).

The author writes the Minio a) didn't trust the Albanians because they created problems unlike the Greeks who were more obedient. and b) Sometimes Bartholomeo Minio speaks favorably of the Albanian stratioti. You kept the first part.

The section about languages discusses the situation in Crete. If you remove the discussion about Stratioti in Crete but don't explain to readers that multilingualism is related to the specific conditions of Crete, it creates an narrative that this was a general situation which is not what bibliography discusses. Companies of Albanian stradioti settled in Crete and they were naturally integrated in Cretan society eventually and their descendants spoke Greek as the example by the author highlights: (information about Stradioti in Crete) (..) Language, a strong factor for integration - The stradioti were multilingual, a property that was a consequence of their movement in space and other environments: Arvanitika (Albanian and Greek elements in a hybrid language), Turkish and Italian, are the languages found. However, the Greek language seems to prevail, even in the core of homogeneous compagnie. The company of George Lykouresis in Chania was mainly Greek, although it consisted exclusively of Albanians. According to Venetian sources, those horsemen, much more farmers than mercenaries stradioti, parlavano in greco. The article can't discuss as a broad generalization a situation which was specific to Crete.--Maleschreiber (talk) 00:16, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

It appears you ignored that b. is on a footnote, i.e. not that important for the author to be included in the main text. This is obvious since the correct translation reads: Some times he spoke (i.e. not officially reported) favourable for Albanians too. You need to be careful on this it changes the meaning. I also wonder why you falsified information to administrators about my addition though it is entirely correct.Alexikoua (talk) 00:32, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

Maleschreiber, that's not what Korre presents. Korre doesn't refer to the stratioti of Crete exclusively, she refers to the languages used by the stratioti in general. The mention of Lykouressis is just an example she used, don't expect to cite everything she knows in a single page. The cited section is only part of a broader chapter beginning in page 474 and ending in page 506 that deals with the identity and characteristics of the stratioti in general (not just of Crete or the Republic of Venice). Demetrios1993 (talk) 07:25, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

@Future Perfect at Sunrise: How do you conclude that she refers to Crete? Furthermore, Wikipedia doesn't exclude the use of theses, and the one by Korre is peer-reviewed by 8 other scholars. Demetrios1993 (talk) 07:40, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

Korre's thesis in its entirety is about those specific groups of stradioti in Crete. Wherever she refers to "οι stradioti", she's referring to those specific groups she's talking about, and illustrates her arguments exclusively with statements about them specifically (e.g. a few pages before the one you quoted, where she talks about their ethnicity and then goes on arguing about what she found "in the suppliche" about the ancestry of one specific person in Crete). In any case, in the section where she ventures into linguistics, she's clearly out of her depth. As Calthinus rightly mentioned, "Arvanitika" isn't a "hybrid language", and there was no such thing as "Arvanitika" in 16th-century Crete. The term "Arvanitika" refers exclusively to the modern minority forms of Albanian in southern Greece. Korre doesn't explain what evidence of Albanian she found in her sources (did those people actually write it? Or were people merely referring to them speaking it? What "mixed" elements did she find, and where?) but whatever it is she found, it wasn't Arvanitika. As for formal reliability, see WP:SCHOLARSHIP. It's not peer-reviewed; it's simply a PhD thesis submitted to an exam board. I wouldn't mind using it, with care, on matters the author is expert in, but not on linguistics, where she clearly isn't. Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:54, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

About the reliability of Korre in general [[37]] she is a university professor in medieval-early modern history with several publications on the subject (Greeks that lived in the republic of Venice).Alexikoua (talk) 08:52, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

FPaS, Korre's thesis certainly isn't limited to Crete. She focuses on the Stratioti of Venice proper and Stato da Màr. See for example section B between pages 144 and 409, where she mentions Euboea, Minor Asia, Nafpaktos, Nafplion, Argos, Methoni, Koroni, Monemvasia, Cyprus, Albania, Ionian islands, Crete and Venice proper (Domini di Terraferma). How is it only about Crete? And the section in question, namely section D, also isn't limited to Crete, but the Stratioti in general. At the very least she is referring to the ones of Stato da Màr and Domini di Terraferma, but the way she writes seems to pertain to them in general. One thing is for certain though; this section isn't limited to the ones of Crete. More specifically the cited "iii. Η γλώσσα, ένα ισχυρό κριτήριο ενσωμάτωσης" is part of "δ) Η εθνοτική ταυτότητα (εθνισμός) και οι ταυτότητες των stradioti" which again doesn't pertain to Crete exclusively. You mention some references to Crete, yet there are references to Stratioti relating to Cyprus, Albania, Zante, etc.. As for Arvanitika, she is not a linguist indeed, but that is beside the point she is trying to make as a historian of the Middle Ages. Correct on the peer-review remark, it was supervised by a dissertation committee of 8. Demetrios1993 (talk) 09:05, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

By the way, in the resume of Korre shared above by Alexikoua, there is also a summary of what her PhD thesis was about complimenting what i wrote above, as well as the grade she got, namely "Excellent" (Άριστα). [Βαθμός: Άριστα] - Η διατριβή εξετάζει τη λειτουργία του στρατιώτη-κατόχου αγροτικού κλήρου από τον 10ο αιώνα και εξής, βάσει αφηγηματικών πηγών και νομοθετικών κειμένων, αναζητώντας το θεσμικό υπόστρωμα ιστορικής εξέλιξης των stradioti των βενετικών κτήσεων. Βάσει δημοσιευμένων και ανέκδοτων αρχειακών τεκμηρίων, αναπτύσσεται διεξοδικά η πολεμική και κοινωνική λειτουργία των μελών της κοινωνικής αυτής κατηγορίας, διακριτής πλέον τον 15ο και 16ο αιώνα. Demetrios1993 (talk) 09:34, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

I don't think that anonymous editors should be discussing about PhD grades of authors. The PhD discusses the situation in Crete.--Maleschreiber (talk) 16:31, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

The grade of the author is relevant for her work's credibility, and once again, her PhD thesis has to do with the stratioti throughout Stato da Màr and Domini di Terraferma, not just Crete. Demetrios1993 (talk) 19:33, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

The grade of an author's PhD is irrelevant in relation to their reliablity. This particular PhD discusses the situation in Crete in relation to language. You can start a broader RfC discussion to seek community consensus.--Maleschreiber (talk) 20:19, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

Engraving – where are the Stradioti?

Where are the stradioti?

About the engraving we've been using as our main illustration (incidentally, not a painting as falsely stated in the caption): do we have any (sourced?) information about which part of the picture is actually believed to depict stradioti? Evidently the picture as a whole is showing a panorama of the entire battle, not specifically the stradioti units in it. Most of the cavalry forces visible in it appear to be heavily armoured ones (with full-head helmets and heavy lances), so they wouldn't meet the description. The only candidates I can see are the bearded horsemen at the bottom left with their cylindrical hats. Is it them? Do we have sources for this? Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:30, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

You have correctly identified the figures in question. They are usually identified as stratioti in RS sources for two reasons; they look like other images identified as stratioti and, most importantly, they are doing what the stratioti did in the battle (looting the French baggage). Do you have sources that identify them otherwise? If so, we may need to consider the interpretation of the image and possibly retire it from the article. Monstrelet (talk) 14:30, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for confirming that. No, I don't have any other identification. Just thought it would be nice to have some more concrete sourcing so we can make the caption more explanatory. If you have some of those RS at hand, could you add a ref? Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:37, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

The light horsemen at the bottom left wear the chapeau albanois, so they should be the stradioti. But can this part of the engraving be uploaded and used? The file used right now is just a grey blob and I would never notice them if we weren't looking for their depiction.--Maleschreiber (talk) 21:01, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

The main illustration can be replaced by one of the two following files, which pertain to Stratioti directly:

• File:1507. Louis XII. Estradiots.jpg
• File:Republica Venezia - Cavalleria stradiotta 1515-50.png

The more general File:Battle of Fornovo.jpg can instead be moved under the Stratioti#Republic_of_Venice section, which describes the respective Battle of Fornovo being depicted. Demetrios1993 (talk) 06:28, 21 June 2021 (UTC)

Neither of these two is contemporary though. They seem of dubious authenticity, I'd say. Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:29, 21 June 2021 (UTC)

Indeed, they were produced later. Specifically, the first one ca. 1830, and the second one between 1895 and 1906. If we are looking for something contemporary, i do like these following ones as well:

• File:Stradiot archer.jpg (by Niklas Stör, ca. 1530; it mentions Stratioti in the first line)
• File:Stradiot & Haiduk.jpg (from "Kostüme und Sittenbilder des 16. Jahrhunderts aus West- und Osteuropa, Orient, der Neuen Welt und Afrika", ca. 1580; though it would have to be cropped to show only the Stratioti in the left)
• File:Stradiots.jpg (by Urs Graf, ca. 1513)

Alternatively, File:Estradiot engraving.JPG (1724), which is already within the article under Stratioti#France, can also be used as our main illustration. Demetrios1993 (talk) 15:32, 21 June 2021 (UTC)

There are several early 16th century images of stradioti in the wikimedia commons category Theuerdank. E.g.

• https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Theuerdank_31_(detail).jpg

• https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Theuerdank_35_(detail).jpg

Monstrelet (talk) 16:48, 21 June 2021 (UTC)