- Seamus (dog) (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (restore)
Seamus (dog) was an article referring to the dog of Mitt Romney, which was involved in a controversial 1983 road trip where the dog was transported on the roof of Romney's car for 11 hours. Seamus was discussed extensively during the 2008 US President race, and the issue resurfaced last week. I saw hundred of news articles online regarding Seamus, prompting me to create the article 'Seamus (dog)'.
Anthony Bradbury, a Wikipedia administrator, deleted the article on Saturday, January 14, 2012 under his speedy delete authority, citing provision A7 (lack of significance). Upon discussion with him, he stated that the incident had significance, but the dog did not. I understand his logic, but I disagree with his decision. There is an article for Mary Jo Kopechne, even though her only significance in is relation to Edward Kennedy's Chappaquidick incident. Likewise, there are webpages for some pets of politicians which are far more obscure than Seamus. For example, 'Dash (collie)' is an article for a dog of Caroline Harrison, a lesser-known First Lady of the nineteenth century. Debbie W. 03:11, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
- Overturn. The cached version shows multiple sources showing interest in the subject. Discuss the merits at AfD. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 10:18, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
- Comment as deleting admin. It might be said that a person is of greater significance than a dog; and the Chappaquidick incident, which effectively erased any chance of Edward Kennedy ever running for the White House, presumably is of greater significance the the Seamus incident, which patently has not prevented Mr Romney from doing so. Also, at the time of Chappaquidick Mr Kennedy was being talked about as a potential presidential candidate while at the time of the Seamus incident Mr Romney, I think, was not (correct me if I am wrong). This, at any rate, represents my thinking in deleting. But if the community disgree, that is their will and I shall not argue. --Anthony Bradbury"talk" 22:38, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
- I don't think this has a realistic chance of remaining a stand-alone article. However, if someone wants to contest an A7, the best place for that is at AfD. I think an outcome of "merge and redirect" is possible. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:04, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
- Sustain Though the attempt to equate an anecdote with a person's death is amusing, perhaps, it does not gain weight therefrom. Collect (talk) 00:18, 18 January 2012 (UTC)
- Endorse - I was tempted to say overturn and list at AfD, but the truth is, I see no way in which this exists as a standalone article. The dog isn't notable. What is notable is that Mitt Romney was involved in a controversy involving his dog. Literally the only thing in the article about the dog was the claim that the dog was nicknamed "Mr. Personality", a claim that misrepresents the reference. Giant case of WP:UNDUE for something that deserves only a couple sentences in Romney's article, at most. Resolute 01:53, 18 January 2012 (UTC)
- Overturn and send to AfD'. I don't think the article is worth keeping, but it asserts importance. The bar for speedy is much lower than notability , and I don't think it would be a good idea to erode it. Perhaps AfD will decide on a redirect if the information is in the article somewhere. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DGG (talk • contribs)
- Overturn and send to AfD per the above unsigned. The bar for A7 is a claim of notability, not actual notability. OSborn arfcontribs. 04:48, 18 January 2012 (UTC)
- Endorse I thought I had deleted it. Obviously didn't. Can't think why I didn't, unless it had only been tagged for a couple of minutes. Possibly a sentence or two in Romney's article - which is where people would look for it, not under the name of the dog. It'd Romney that's notable, not the dog, and Romney is notable without the dog anyway. Kopechne? A human who died in dubious circumstances with a long-lasting result. The dog? Survived, and apart from possibly making a comment that resulted in him getting washed, seems to have been none the worse for his ride. If he had been, I feel sure action would have been taken. Peridon (talk) 17:00, 20 January 2012 (UTC)
- Comment as the author of this 'Seamus (dog)' page, I feel that the dog has become notable. If you type in 'Seamus Romney' under Google, you will get more than 200,000 hits, including links to major newspapers such as the Boston Globe and the New York Times. When I initially created this article, I thought about naming it the 'Seamus incident' and linking it to the Mitt Romney article, but I didn't because nobody refers to the event as the 'Seamus incident'. It's simply Seamus, Mitt Romney's dog, or in some cases 'Seamus Romney'. Furthermore, while I understand that Mary Jo Kopechne has had a more lasting influence than Seamus Romney, Seamus has had a much more lasting influence than many of the dogs of famous people which have their own Wikipedia articles. On the article for famous dogs (see below), there are dogs which are famous and have articles only because of their owners. For example, Lou dog, owned by Bradley Nowell, and Diamond who may have been owned by Isaac Newton, each have an article independent of their human masters. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_historical_dogs#Dogs_belonging_to_notable_people Debbie W. 21:21, 20 January 2012 (UTC)
- This definitely beats A7. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 22:21, 20 January 2012 (UTC)
- How does this beat A7? I do not see the logic. The number of Google hits only helps us know what language is more common on the web, which can be useful in some contexts. But I do not see how it is suggieient to determine the notability of an topic for inclusion in an encyclopedia article. WP is not an encyclopedia of "Googles Greatest Hits." People who access WP obviously have access to the internet and if they want to learn about Seamus the car-surfing dog, well, we have established that they can find no end of sources courtesy of Google. Great. They don't need WP to learn about this amazing dog. So why does WP need an article on the dog? We need to use our own criteria about what makes something "encyclopedic." in fact, I would argue that the opposite logic is more compelling - a topic that gets no google hits might be essential to include in WP and WP will become the only real on-line source of information about the topic (it is true! Many topics of intense scholarly debate and interest, which belong in an encyclopedia, don't score on google, or score very low). I am not dismissing Google entirely, I just do not see any necessary reason why google hits trumps A7. Google is an algorithm. We are intelligent, thoughtful people who should be able to reason this out with deliberation. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:14, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
- A7 is speedy deletion because of a lack of significance. Wikipedia defines significance as a much lower standard than notability. Wikipedia's guideline for speedy deletion gives the following as grounds for an A7 speedy deletion: An article about a real person, individual animal(s), organization, or web content that does not indicate why its subject is important or significant. This is distinct from verifiability and reliability of sources, and is a lower standard than notability.... The criterion does not apply to any article that makes any credible claim of significance or importance even if the claim is not supported by a reliable source or does not qualify on Wikipedia's notability guidelines. The criterion does apply if the claim of significance or importance given is not credible. If the claim's credibility is unclear, you can improve the article yourself, propose deletion, or list the article at articles for deletion. Having 200,000 Google hits, and articles in major newspapers does not necessarily makes something notable, but it does make it significant, and that is why A7 should not apply here. Debbie W. 18:59, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
- Overturn. Rather clearly not appropriate for A7 deletion. Repeatedly discussed in prominent national media. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 02:42, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
- Endorse, a couple of sentences in Romney's article is more than sufficient. The dog is not the subject of the source coverage, the incident is. Seraphimblade Talk to me 21:50, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
- A7 says, in bold, "does not indicate why its subject is important or significant." There is an indication of why the dog might be important. Whether or not the dog is in fact notable is an issue for AfD, not here. OSborn arfcontribs. 22:09, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
- Keep Deleted. I won't endorse the out of process speedy, but I can't imagine any reasonable AfD keeping. As everyone else writes above, the only interesting fact about the dog was the trip, and that says nothing about the dog, only about its owner. A sentence or at most section in the owner's article is the most that could be appropriate. --GRuban (talk) 16:03, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
- Overturn and send to AfD Deletion per A7, as pointed above, is not appropriate in this case. Cavarrone (talk) 13:38, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
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