Talk:LGBTQ rights in Cuba

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Untitled

I submitted this article and made a mistake in the capitalization of "Cuba" in the title. As I am a new user, I am not able to change the title myself. Franklin Moore 19:18, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Done. To move a page, use the "move" tab on the top of the article (between the "history" and the "watch" tab). Feel free to ask me any questions about how to do stuff like this. :) ntennis 07:18, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

El Periquitón Raid

The issue of the raid on El Periquitón was removed from the article as being unconfirmed. After some editing I have restored it. The raid was widely reported and has been cited, not only by countless gay new services but also the United States Government and the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights. While the government source does not mention the arrest of Pedro Almodovar and Jean Paul Gaultier. That detail was also widely reported in Europe and in the United States (without a reference to its being unconfirmed) by the Dallas Morning News. Additionally, the US Government report contains an extensive list of sources, many of which also include a very detailed account of the event. A partial list of the references are as follows:

UNCHR [[1]]

US Citzenship and Immigration Service - U.S. Department of Homeland Security [[2]]

Cuban American National Foundation [[3]]

Plan Notici@as [[4]]

Cubanet [[5]]

Zunega APIC reprinted in translation at Florida International University's web site[[6]]

Niuews Bank [[7]]

Dallas Morning News - avaliable for purchase ["Gays%20struggling%20to%20find%20a%20place%20in%20macho,%20authoritarian%20Cuba")&p_perpage=10&p_sort=YMD_date:D&xcal_useweights=no]

Thanks for taking the trouble to give it some credibility. Good job! I must say at first glance all primary sources seem to have an anti-cuban agenda. If so, it ought to be made clear. Jens Nielsen 09:57, 12 February 2006 (UTC) (don't forget to sign)

Operation P

Does anyone have information about "Operacion P"? Supposedly starting in 1960, it was a government program targetting "pimps, prostitutes and pedofiles". However all the online references i can find are from less-than-rigorous websites with an axe to grind, or have got their info from such sites. ntennis 01:23, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Cuba most active persecutor of homosexuals in the western hemisphere?

The introduction of the article notes "it is widely acknowledged that during this period, Cuba was among the most active persecutors of homosexuals in the western hemisphere." This soulds a bit weasely, and needs a citation (or two). It shouldn't be that hard, given that it is "widely acknowledged". And out of curiousity, which country is the least active persecutor of homosexuals in the western hemisphere? And how about the eastern hemisphere? Patiwat 07:51, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Article out of date

This article is hopelessly out of date by the way, I understand that many changes have occured since 1997. It needs to be updated asap.--Zleitzen 10:05, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

The article contains references from 2000, 2001, and 2006. I checked and the there has been no change in the Cuban Constitution, Penal Code or Family Code since the article was written, so these sections do not need to be changed. [[8]] The references to Cuba's history of maltreatment of homosexuals in the 60s through 80s have not changed, nor has occassional relaxation of those policies which bgain in the 90s. (In other words it remains occassional. Some improvements and some backtraking. [9] [10] [11] [12] This is reflected in the article) My review indicates that the only major change, is the Soap Opera, Dark Side of the Moon, which is discussed in the article. What effect, if any, this will have is to be seen, so we have to wait before reporting any changes that result from the TV show. Other developments, seem to be more of the same. and show no great need for referencing. If you have a specific developemt that is not mentioned, ket us know; clearly if something of magnitude has changed, it should be reported.

I did note a Statement from Cuba News by Pascual Serrano Rebelión attacking an El País article “Eighty Countries Punish Homosexual Relationships with Jail” claiming that the article was biased because it listed Cuba before nations such as Saudi Arabia which have the death penalty for homosexuality and that the article relied on pre-1998 sources. Here is the link, in case you have not read it. [13] Mr. Serrano may have a point that El País singled Cuba out for harsher treatment than it deserved, but at no time did he argue that Cuba does not do the things alleged in the current Wiki article. Any claim he has should be, as it was addressed to El Pais, not this article. His argument that other countries are worse may be true, but in no way diminish the facts about Cuba. His defense of the Cuban government's treatment of Gays also dispute with pre 1998 information, including Strawberry and Choclate and claims about Arenas. These are referenced in the article and do not need to be repeated. Franklin Moore 06:11, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

(caught in edit conflict before reading the above) I completely understand the difficulties of getting information about Cuba, Franklin, and my previous post was far too sweeping in it's judgement. There is obviously good research here. What I mean is this - and this is one of the key problems with Cuba that dogs my editing on the subject as well - The longevity of the present Government means that a whole load of material is lumped together, and given a context of post-revolution life. Whereas we're actually referring to a period of 47 years. Starting from a time when homosexuality was illegal in Britain etc, to a time where homosexual acts are still illegal in neighbouring Caribbean countries. By jumping around 5 decades in the first paragraph there is an impression that all these things occur concurrently under the revolution. My first suggestion is divide the sections chronologically. --Zleitzen 07:10, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Don't worry about that. As you may be caught in an edit conflict. I am caught in a sleep/edit conflict and sleep is winning. I am off to bed, but will look at the article tomorrow as I agree that the intro may need to be shortened to include present information and other info put into a new history paragraph. Let's continue this after tomorrow. Franklin Moore 07:24, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

As promised I took a look at the article and note some argeement with you. While I beleive the article contains currently correct information, I do think that over the past months a number of user edits (while adding appropriate information) did so in a disorganized fashion and that the article now reads poorly and does lump diferent periods together. It is my plan to clean this up and break down the sections in a more chronllogical fashion. I hope to have this completed in the next day or two. It is not my intention to remove information, but merely better organize the current information. I will also double check to ensure any new developments are added. In that regard, if Zeitzen or any other user has sources of new information I ask that they either report them here, with a link or reference, or add them to the article itself - hopefully in a place that will follow the soon to come chronological organization. Thanks for the suggestion and keep them coming. Franklin Moore 21:34, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Here's one quote from Castro in 1992 which typically blurs the issues, as is the Cuban fashion -

I don't consider homosexuality to be a phenomenon of degeneration. I've always had a more rational approach, considering it to be one of the natural aspects and tendencies of human beings which should be respected. That's how I view it... I am absolutely opposed to any form of repression, contempt, scorn or discrimination with regard to homosexuals. That's what I think. [14]

There is the National Center for Sex Education which amongst other things attempts to iradicate homophobic attitudes in Cuba. [15] This piece [16] describes Cuba's homophobia as a social problem stating "The last discriminatory provisions targetting homosexuals were removed from Cuba's penal code when it was reformed in 1997." which is worth a read. Our article refers to "recent crackdowns" which were actually in 1997, nine years ago. More links to follow, I imagine.--Zleitzen 07:51, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

I made a start on updating information and organising content. By the way, that quote from Castro is outrageous! He repeatedly denounced gays. Also, the crackdowns apparently continue, according to the links provided by Franklin above. This one is from 2001. ntennis 06:29, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

P.S. Thanks Franklin for this link. At least the US and Cuba can agree on something! ntennis 06:33, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Good work on the page, ntennis. The link you speak of only refers to crackdowns back in 1997. Also, because Cuba is so isolated and strange, the Western (particuarily US) media have a tendency to pounce on such stories, and these things go around the media-world like Chinese whispers - before you know it the reality is impossible to find. Figures change, one minute it's Cuba closing unlicensed private discos, then it's 50 arrests the next it's 500 and so. Who knows? One thing is true, 1997 is nearly a decade ago.--Zleitzen 06:52, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, my mistake, the article is published in 2001 but refers to 1997. *embarrassed grimace* . Also, you are right about the difficulty of finding reliable sources on this subject. It's been said that homosexuals are not allowed in the communist party in Cuba but I'm yet to trace the claim. Do either of you have any knowledge of this? I'm not a Cuba expert, I've never even been there. But here's some competely original research: a friend of mine (a doctor of Latin American studies who is left-wing himself) just returned from there, and told me that police harassment of queens is still fairly commonplace. ntennis 07:27, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm also a little perturbed by a review in Amazon being used as a source - I don't think that's applicable for an encylopedia. Regardless of the merits of the writer elsewhere there are way too many variables and problems, for one - his description of Cuba's "typically Stalinist state apparatus" indicates that he's not a reliable source on the political structure and governance of the island. --Zleitzen 23:42, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

If you believe even half of what Murray says about Lumsden's book, claims by Lumsden should also be treated with suspicion. The same could be said for Tatchell, or even Human Rights Watch for that matter. The worst of them is the article from "Fight Racism! Fight Imperialism!" Do you have a different source for the claim by Murray? In fact, there are many claims in the article without a citation of any kind. Do you know of any better sources for the article in general? ntennis 02:36, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Is the "fight racism, fight imperialism" being used as a source? Hmmm, perhaps as an external link, but if used to inform the article it should be clearly stated. It's not easy to tell what is a source and what isn't from the page, I'm afraid. Of the "fight racism..." article itself, the "bourgeois and individualistic elements" is offensive and absurd, but some of what is written is actually verifiable - such as the 1995 drag queen May Day parade etc.

I'm not sure how to treat Lumsden's book as I haven't read it, though here is another review of Lumsden's book. Lumsden, who is an associate professor of political science at Atkinson College, York University, Ontario writes in the intro; "I have admired the social changes that have benefitted countless Cubans, and I have been outraged by the Castro regimes authoritarian treatment of some of its citizens, including friends of mine, who have been jailed, forced into exile, or cowed in their daily lives." A later paragraph is quite telling, "there are very stereotyped views, both of Cuba and of gay men.... To a certain extent it represents a response to the lack of information, to misinformation, and to prejudiced opinions, particularly within the gay communities of North America of which I am a part. My work is also intended to enlighten general readers, including those Leftists who ignore the oppression of homosexuals when they denounce violation of human rights in the Third World.

All being said, the theme is the difficulties in getting solid information about such matters in Cuba. On general human rights in Cuba issues, I'm a firm believer in relying on mainstream international human rights sources. Because of the whirlwind of distortions about the island, from within and from the exterior - this would seem to be the correct approach. I'll do some digging.--Zleitzen 03:40, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

There are already Human Rights Watch and World Policy Institute reports linked. You might want to read the reports linked and add extra information? Unfortunately, these reports don't cover everything, and Amnesty International has not been allowed into the country since 1988. (AI Cuba report 2005). ntennis 05:33, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

The latter I am very familiar with in respect to Cuba. HRW does have flaws concerning Cuba but which US organisation doesn't? - although the source is still referring back to 1997. The Policy Institute piece reads well and is more up to date, which is surprising given that the institute is directed from New York by the son of Arthur Schlesinger, the man who wrote the official White Paper for Kennedy to justify an invasion of Cuba in '61! I was expected the usual nonsense. There's maybe five or six smallish points I'd like to come round to at some point. One of them is the "recent crackdowns"/Almodovar material which is back in '97 - I'll perhaps seperate them and make it more clear of the context and era. Thanks for the various pointers to links etc by the way.--Zleitzen 06:20, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

On whether the Communist party allows homosexuals, there was something in the link I placed on the page a couple of days ago but I can't remember where it is or what it said. --Zleitzen 12:37, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, the writer was just quoting Tatchell, and unfortunately Tatchell doesn't cite his sources. Lots of other good information there though, thanks for that link. ntennis 12:55, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

P.S I've been pottering around on this article lately but haven't made many structural changes. Do you have any ideas for better organisation of the information here? ntennis 13:09, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Funnily enough I was watching an interview with Castro from 2004 as general research and he was probed about this issue - he replied (roughly translated) "We have made many mistakes, at the beginning of the revolution we had a male chauvinistic spirit, and much prejudices of the gays, that is something that has been fading away in the passing of years, until people are hardly prejudiced. It was hard, believe me, because we were a male chauvinistic society and it was part of our ancestry. We have had to learn to change these values". Anyway, I'd like to clearly establish the chronology of this, bringing together the various verifiable pointers from 1959 to (say) 1997 and have them clearly presented. My feeling is that the general arch of this chronology is the following

1. the extreme machismo and chauvinism of the island pre-revolution targetted at homosexuals
2. the revolution and the gradual adherence to Soviet imposed doctrine resulting in active persecution of homosexuality (1960's) Castro discriminatory quotes etc
3. the easing of persecution, but the continuation of a refusal to acknowledge or tolerate homosexual activity in Cuba 1970's-80's
4. the arrival of aids to the island, radical methods to deal with this heavily criticised
5. post Soviet collapse - the easing of all restrictions on the island and tentative efforts to acknowledge the issue amidst backdrop of autonomous police repression.
6. 1997 crackdown on parties make international news
7. 1997-2006 largescale reform and efforts by many including the government to change the culture of discrimination at all levels. Acknowledgement of the situation past and present from the highest level.

What I'll do is create a sandbox to write a history section over the next week, incorporating some of what is presently on the page. Then present it here for appraisal. Does that sound workable? --Zleitzen 14:17, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Sounds good. Add stuff straight into the article if you like. ntennis 17:19, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

It is freakin hilarious that anyone would give any weight to a quote from Castro concerning how he "really" feels about homosexuality, as if the persecution of gays, IN A TOTALITARIAN STATE, could have occurred without his say-so. The timeline above this one is a complete joke. It quite simply amazes me that after more than 50 years of tyranny, people are still looking for ways to give Castro a pass by implying that outside forces made him discriminate against gays or that those who were involved in the repression were somehow acting autonomously(what a fuc*ing joke if I ever saw one). The law itself is irrelevant if the dictatorship is just going to ignore it(how shocking that a totalitarian government is able to arbitrarily and capriciously decide by which "laws" it will abide). Pretty much every human rights organization in the world has stated that homosexuals are still treated abysmally in Cuba, yet there seems to be a sizable faction that is trying to whitewash that record based upon some half-assed effort to end "discrimination" and a lame "apology" from Castro. As for police repression being "autonomous", don't make me laugh. Again, the whole thing about what a totalitarian state is probably needs to be reiterated. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.141.154.118 (talk) 18:16, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

LGBT rights

Would anyone object to a page move to LGBT rights in Cuba? The page already has stuff relating to gender, and i'd like to add more. There's a precedent too: LGBT rights in Jamaica. ntennis 17:21, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Good idea. Haiduc 01:30, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Ditto. --Zleitzen 01:33, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Good enough for me. Now done. ntennis 03:24, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Changes

I've added a report from the IGLA and restuctured the page somewhat to take account of the chronology and changes that have occured. More chronological formatting will follow.--Zleitzen 21:12, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

I feel you did not capture the essence of Sanchez's impressions, and made some changes accordingly. ntennis 23:32, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Fine by me.--Zleitzen 00:03, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Ntennis, you've changed the lead somewhat.

• You've added "events are not permitted" - that's not true. State approved LBGT events exist frequently such as parades and community events. That is borne out by the sources.
• You've removed "following cultural changes to Cuban society in the 1990s, and subsequent gradual measures undertaken by the Cuban Government."

Both cultural and governmental changes are detailed later in the article. Cultural changes to Cuban society are clearly evident. The state controlled media have actively attempted to change cultural perceptions in a number of ways - including via the media, cinema, television etc alongside the creation of a body whose main role is to change perceptions. I preferred the more accurate lead, I'm afraid. --Zleitzen 02:45, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

OK, let's discuss that. I also continued the reorganisation of content, so please let me know what you think of it now. Firstly, I thought the Sanchez report was given too much prominence for what was really an informal visit. I moved the history section further down, as 'freedom of association' and 'public decency' seem to be contemporary issues.

As for the lead, I think it implied that the lessening of homophobia was due to Government programs. I thought this 'cause and effect' was conjecture, and that a simple acknowledgment of goverment programs was actually more accurate, and adequate. What do you think? As for the cultural changes in the 1990s, can you spell them out for me? Perhaps we can be more specific in the lead. ntennis 03:07, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Sorry I missed one more of your points. I changed the following: "Restrictions on public assembly and all non-state approved organizations effectively means that LGBT associations are not permitted." To this: "In Cuba, people's organisations and public assembly must be state-approved, and LGBT associations and events are not permitted."

My concern with the previous version was the claim that restrictions "effectively mean" that LGBT associations are not permitted. But in fact, state-approved associations are permitted; they just haven't approved any. The WPI (2003) report claims that "the Cuban government still does not allow the existence of independent LGBT organizations and periodicals. There are no gay pride marches, and no gay clubs." What frequent LGBT community events and parades are you referring to? ntennis 03:21, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

I was tempted to suggest the main "LBGT community event" is the gathering of the transvestite prostitutes on Quinta Avenida, but suspect that might offend some ! More seriously though - this points up part of the problem in the government's dealings with gay people - a tendency for the authorities to associate LBGT gatherings with prostitution. The 1997 crackdown on LBGT parties mentioned can be seen as part of a general crackdown against night-life prior to the Pope's visit. -- Beardo 05:20, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

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The Cuban government flip flopped on Gay Marriage

This came from protests from the nation's growing evangelical community.[17]. The pressure was too great.68.47.64.121 (talk) 15:20, 19 December 2018 (UTC)

The lead summary fails to summarize the historical situation(s) regarding the government even in a single word or sentence

No, "Historically, public antipathy towards LGBT people was high, reflecting regional norms. This has eased since the 1990s." is not about the state. SNAAAAKE!! (talk) 13:27, 19 June 2019 (UTC)

"Although the UMAP program ended in 1968, the camps themselves continued."

Can anybody find a source for this claim in the section "Negative attitudes during most of the 1970s"? The only one provided is a blog called "TOTALITARIAN IMAGES", which does seem to host some primary sources but none relating to this alleged second period of systematic internment. I initially tried to find other sources (principally looking at Guerra, Lillian (2010) though I'd skimmed a few others referenced in this article as well) to see if descriptions of the conditions could be verified, but I can't actually find any reference to the camps continuing in any form, and the Wikipedia article on UMAP camps makes no mention of them continuing in another form post-1968.

If nobody can find a corroborating source on this I'll edit to remove the part alleging they continued; the rest of the paragraph seems to be more accurately rolled into the preceding subsection on the UMAPs camps themselves anyway.

Chaste Krassley (talk) 08:36, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

I'm removing this paragraph. The only source in it (https://web.archive.org/web/20090522002648/http://www.fightforchange.org/castros-daughter-leads-gay-rights-conga-line/) says nothing about the continuation of UMAP or UMAP-like camps past their official abolition in 1968 (and in all honesty it really says nothing not already said by better sources), and the claim has been sitting unsourced for over a decade now. Some of it could be re-added to the preceding section if appropriate (e.g. part on Castro's justification), though in my view it's probably better suited for the UMAP page itself given the section's already quite lengthy, so I'll leave that to other editors to consider. Chaste Krassley (talk) 00:09, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: Global LGBTQ Rights and Representation

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 11 January 2022 and 29 April 2022. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): OSabates (article contribs).

LGBT rights in Cuba aren't among the most progressive in Latin America

The source only links to Cuba approving same-sex marriage, yet gay marriage is legal in most of Latin America and many of those countries approved it way before Cuba did. Pol Cəl (talk) 21:05, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

Non inclusion of the family code in the body of the article

It’s a little crazy that the only mention of the family code is in the lede of this article. I am fairly certain it deserves mention in the “history” section at least. Aside from the lede, the rest of the text in the page still largely gives the impression that Cuba today has laws which discriminate against lgbt Cubans even though the opposite has been true for almost 18 months now. 74.109.240.116 (talk) 21:40, 8 February 2024 (UTC)