Draft talk:Antisemitism on Wikipedia/Archive 1

Archive 1

Proposal to merge to Antisemitism

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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This is an alternative merge proposal to be considered in the event that the above discussion results in the decision to merge the page. If the editors here insist on a merge, let the page be merged to antisemitism as the content here covers more than just criticism of WP. I.am.a.qwerty (talk) 23:19, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose Antisemitism is over 12,000 words, 50% over the recommended size limit. Also Wikipedia feels too specific for such a broad overview article, especially when "Antisemitism on the internet" seems barely discussed in the article to begin with.

Hemiauchenia (talk) 00:00, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

• Putting merge destination aside, I think editors need to figure out whether to go for a full merge or a selective merge, before a closer swoops in. — hako9 (talk) 00:56, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

I think a rough consensus exists that the article needs a full rewrite, containing a lot of WP:SYNTH so a minimalist selective merge would be necessary.Boynamedsue (talk) 08:32, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

As an aside, has anyone here verified the journal sources with the claims made? — hako9 (talk) 23:47, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

see my comment in the previous section, with 6 concerns about the use of sources ProfGray (talk) 02:26, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Misrepresentation of Omnipedia's findings

• Remove or rephrase the line "A 2012 study found that many Wikipedias treated Judaism as a conspiracy theory" in the section Systemic anti-Jewish bias, as it misrepresents the citation's findings.
• The source instead states "We also see that Judaism is discussed in many language editions’ coverage of conspiracy theories, demonstrating that this form of anti-Semitism is unfortunately widespread." Pg 2 of Omnipedia: bridging the wikipedia language gap PDF
• The source is saying that Judaism is a topic of many conspiracy theories (same as Freemasonry, the US, or the CIA), not that Wikipedia is treating Judaism itself as a conspiracy theory.

Butterscotch Beluga (talk) 02:48, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for catching this. Correcting now. ProfGray (talk) 03:15, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

References

Recommended edits if article is kept

To better assess the viability of this article, let's discuss edits that might improve it. How about restructring the headings to cover the different subtopics of antisemitic bias?

• Explicit antisemitic conduct. This could include media coverage of swastika vandalism and antisemitic user names.
• Bias in coverage of the Holocaust.
• Bias in articles on the Israel-Palestine conflict. This would be a child-parent subsection to the main article on Wikipedia and the Israel-Palestine conflict.
• Systemic bias. This could include terminology bias. Also, suppression of accusations of antisemitic bias, as argued by: Oboler, Andre, Gerald Steinberg, and Rephael Stern. "The framing of political NGOs in Wikipedia through criticism elimination." Journal of Information Technology & Politics 7, no. 4 (2010): 284-299.
• Efforts to address antisemitic bias

The current article also mentions concerns with bias in Arabic Wikipedia, treatment of Jewish biographies, etc. Under what heading would we place the antisemitic bias concerns with the ADL case? ProfGray (talk) 13:55, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Additional suggestions, numbered for feedback:

1. It should read "October 7, 2023" and 2024 in the Bias in Israel-related content section, 2nd paragraph
2. Change title, Move, to Antisemitism on Wikipedia. This would be comparable to gender and racial bias articles, which are also subarticles to the Criticism of WP article.
3. Revise opening, e.g.: Antisemitic bias on Wikipedia has been raised as a concern over the conduct of some editors, systemic bias, and aspects of the coverage of the Holocaust and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
4. Place Wikipedia's responses, if any, within each (new) subtopic. Likewise, for each subtopic, bring in global coverage from non-EN wikipedias.
5. Attribute research findings to specific studies, match various types of antisemitic bias to the particular experts or advocates holding that view.
6. Include a subsection with various published recommendations about how WP might reduce antisemitism.
7. Write the major points very concisely in the parent article, Criticism of Wikipedia, and elaborate fully in this article. Minor points can be covered here, skipping the parent article. ProfGray (talk) 02:58, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

See Talk:Criticism_of_Wikipedia#Subsection_on_Antisemitic_bias_on_Wikipedia Selfstudier (talk) 13:12, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

I think grouping by topics along those lines seems like a nice direction.

In terms of what to do with any content about other-language Wikipedias, it seems we have a few options -

1. Make language the main top-level organization. I suspect we won't have enough non-English content for this to work well.
2. Make most sections about English, with a special section for Arabic. Feels a bit weird since it deviates from the otherwise topic-based organization.
3. No language-based organization, just consider all languages in scope within each section.
4. Or explicitly scope the article to English Wikipedia only.

I think 3 or 4 might be best? — xDanielx ^T/_C\^R 04:49, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

How would you feel about broadening the Israeli-Palestinian section to be about Israel, not necessarily the conflict? I figure it would enable some other material, e.g. from [1], to be included.

The ADL content also feels a little out-of-place there; do you think a section about sources would make sense? ADL alone is a small topic, but maybe it could have some other content based on the paper about NGOs, or [2] talks about source selection leading to bias in Holocaust content. — xDanielx ^T/_C\^R 21:01, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Actually, the ADL case is quite significant for this article -- not so much because of the actual RS ruling -- but because of the strong Jewish community reaction and because the ADL has been perceived as an authority and leader on determining antisemitism (or antisemitic bias) and combating it.

Let's not limit to English WP, partly given the sources available, and partly to keep with aspirational WP goal to have a global perspective.

For the I-P section, it'd be best to have a heading that focuses readers on the antisemitic concerns with the overall I-P topic. So I may revise it again, or leave it to later. Thoughts? ProfGray (talk) 22:01, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Perhaps this case of Holocaust distortion is pertinent: Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2019-10-31/In the media ProfGray (talk) 22:26, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

I agree we should cover the ADL case, since it received significant coverage. I just meant that it didn't seem specific to I-P, so not sure about it being in that section.

I don't feel strongly about the sections, but just want to make sure we have some place for criticism that relates to Zionism or Israel but isn't focused on the I-P conflict specifically. — xDanielx ^T/_C\^R 22:26, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Hi. @XDanielx, it may be wise to have a Talk section specifically about how to handle Israel-related bias.

Unless or until renamed, this article is about antisemitism, right? As such, it seems improper to assume that any anti-Israel bias is also anti-Jewish (aka antisemitic). Israel advocacy groups, incl ADL, often presume an overlap by using the IHRA definition, but Wikipedia has not taken a stance re:IHRA.

Accordingly, it makes sense to refer only to sources and situations, whether in WP articles or internal discussions, in which the Israel-related matter is explicitly discussed in terms of anti-Jewish or antisemitic bias. I plan to restore the lede and open a Talk section for this question. Thanks, ProfGray (talk) 14:25, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Neutrality tag

@Boynamedsue: do you have ideas about how neutrality could be improved? I'm mainly thinking about the tag in the sourcing section, though similar concerns may arise elsewhere.

• It seems like a valid point that inclusion may seem like an implied claim of antisemitism. Do you think a title like Allegations of anti-Jewish bias on Wikipedia would help with this concern? I figure "anti-Jewish bias" is broader/milder than "antisemitism".
• I would agree we should ideally do more to represent the other side of these Wikipedia disputes, I'm just not sure if we'll be able to find secondary sources to do so. Should we consider citing Wikipedia at all? I think it would require a bit of WP:IAR, since it would seem to break the reliably-published prong of WP:PRIMARY.

— xDanielx ^T/_C\^R 04:19, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

In terms of the neutrality tag on the last section, sources which outline the problems with ADL's identification of individuals as antisemitic exist and were referred to in the RfC, they should be included as context in a sentence prior to the criticism. Then the criticism needs to avoid the impression of wikivoice, I tried an edit with "what they perceived as Jewish communal opinion" or something similar, but a direct quote would also work there.

In terms of the title, I personally still think this should be merged, and a consensus for that exists, so I'm not massively fussed. But the title "anti-Jewish bias" is worse. It still associates bias against Jews with bias against Israel (if we are going to have the Israel-Palestine section) and takes the very nuanced analysis in the Babi Yar article, which actually focuses on the use of Holocaust memory in the construction of modern nationalism and makes it about anti-Jewish bias.Boynamedsue (talk) 07:31, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

It does seem to me that links should be made to the closes or to the summary at RSN for the decisions on reliability. Insofar as there are claims being made for example about the JVL, a link to the close, which explains the problem of circular citation (currently unmentioned in this entry) would be wise. In the Criticism of Wikipedia entry I've boldly added a link to the close of the ADL discussion in mainspace, which may be a no-no, but seemed the fairest solution. Perhaps that link should be relegated to a ref-tag. -- SashiRolls ^{🌿 · 🍥} 07:41, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

The 9 media sources in the RfC discussion are at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 439.

Agreeing that anti-Jewish and anti-Israel bias should be differentiated, except where an overlap is clearly involved. See Talk section below on this point.

Hopefully the nuanced Holocaust scholarship is now better represented in that article subsection. ProfGray (talk) 15:40, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

§ Source selection

What's the point of the following para: Wikipedia maintains a list of "perennial sources" whose reliability has been evaluated by a community of editors, with results like "generally reliable", "generally unreliable", or "deprecated". These classifications affect editors' ability to use the sources on Wikipedia. Sources deemed generally reliable include Al-Jazeera, Amnesty International and B'Tselem. Sources deemed generally unreliable include Jewish Virtual Library, an online encyclopedia, and NGO Monitor, a pro-Israel advocacy group.

One could add to "Sources deemed generally reliable" - CNN, Nyt; and "Sources deemed generally unreliable" - Brietbart, Al Mayadeen. One can arbitrarily select any of the sources listed on wp:rsp to make a point that suits one's perspective. — hako9 (talk) 13:15, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Agreeing with this concern and the deletion of the sentences above. The critique by Bandler the Jewish Journal, is about ideological bias and anti-Israel bias, without mentioning any anti-Jewish aka antisemitic aspects. The other reference, by Elia-Shalev, could be used for ADL if need be, but again refers to JVL or NGO Monitor in terms of anti-Israel bias. ProfGray (talk) 14:07, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

I think the sources were imply an alleged connection to antisemetic bias, but yeah maybe it wasn't explicit enough to clearly establish relevance. Might be useful to keep the first sentence at least (or similar) for context. — xDanielx ^T/_C\^R 15:48, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Distinguishing anti-Jewish and antisemitic bias from anti-Israel bias

Opening up discussion on the article topic (currently defined as antisemitism) in relation to anti-Israel concerns.

It seems improper to assume that any anti-Israel bias is also anti-Jewish (aka antisemitic). Israel advocacy groups, incl ADL, often presume an overlap by using the IHRA definition. However, Wikipedia has not taken a stance re:IHRA.

Accordingly, it makes sense to refer only to sources and situations, whether in WP articles or internal discussions, in which the Israel-related matter is clearly discussed in terms of anti-Jewish or antisemitic bias. In other words, this article can have a section on anti-Jewish concerns as a (parent-child) subset of anti-Israel bias concerns in general, which belong to Wikipedia and the Israeli–Palestinian conflict. Fwiw, not implying anything about the Truth of concerns, allegations, etc.

This approach is reflected in my recent edit of the opening sentence and removing 2 sentences about Israel and Gaza. ProfGray (talk) 14:40, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

I might prefer a broader scope which encompasses allegations of anti-Israeli bias, but that's fair to make those changes for now pending a possible rename or other explicit scope decision. — xDanielx ^T/_C\^R 16:16, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia coverage of Labour Party

I revised the write-up of Yair Rosenberg's criticism of Wikipedia coverage of Labour and Corbyn. Feedback welcome. He wrote in Jan 2018. Is it acceptable MOS, either in a note or in the article body, to provide a diff showing the Corbyn article at the time? Would it be too much Original Research to provide a note showing that within 3 months the Corbyn article did have a section on Corbyn's responses to antisemitism accusations? Though not covered in the meda, Wikipedia did appear to resolve this alleged bias.ProfGray (talk) 19:19, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Misc claims of anti-Jewish bias

Found these sources, the first seems reliable and useful. Not sure if there others could improve the article's coverage of criticisms about anti-Jewish bias.

Richard Greenberg, Sept 4, 2006. "The lie that just won't seem to die: Jews behind 9/11" The Jerusalem Post. [3] Based on research by Chip Berlet of Political Research Associates: "Efforts to connect the Jews with 9/11, however, are not limited to fringe groups talking with one another. Contributors to Wikipedia, the popular and influential online encyclopedia, have tried repeatedly to insert anti-Jewish 9/11 theories into Wikipedia's pages and represent them as fact or at least plausible versions of reality, according to Berlet. The insertions - which represent one of countless pieces of potentially suspect information submitted to Wikipedia almost daily - have been promptly excised by the encyclopedia's volunteer editors, says Berlet, himself a Wikipedia editor, "but it requires constant attention." It's impossible to determine how many viewers have seen the postings before they were removed from the Wikipedia Web site, which has a daily viewership of roughly 30 million, according to a company spokesman."

Karin Quillan, July 12, 2010. "Wikipedia’s Jewish Problem: Why won't the online encyclopedia allow the truth about the New York Times' Holocaust coverage?" FrontPage Mag [4] Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2010-07-19/In the news

Dani Ishai Behan, Feb 17, 2017. "Wikipedia’s Jewish Problem: Pervasive, Systemic Antisemitism" Times of Israel. [5] This links to ethnic slurs Talk and questionable views of Jewish identity.

Hava Mendelle. Feb 17, 2024. "Wikipedia: how safe is crowdsourcing the truth?" The Spectator Australia. [6] "Take the following examples, an article on Flat Earth and an article on the Weaponisation of antisemitism. The Flat Earth article created in 2001 has a total number of 5,511 edits with 650-page watchers (usually administrators who monitor page stability). Whereas the article on the Weaponisation of antisemitism created in December 2023 has a total of 196 edits and fewer than 30-page watchers. The former reads more neutral and factual where whereas the latter reads like an argumentative essay. The problem here is that with millions of articles on any given topic, the majority of people are likely to read smaller articles as fact regardless of any increased bias or lack of impartiality.

(yesterday) Ohad Merlin, Nov 3, 2024. "Wikipedia in Arabic: A hotbed for bigotry, misinformation, and bias - investigative report" Jerusalem Post. [7] -- Mostly about anti-Israel bias, but leads with anti-Jewish example. ProfGray (talk) 05:37, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Use of source on anti-Jewish editing on Eugenics

Re: This sentence in our article's current version:

• For example, in 2005, editors removed an anti-Jewish section of the Eugenics article after in-depth Wikipedia talk page conversations with a suspected sock puppet account from Stormfront.

In reviewing sources, I noticed that De Vera (2020) is a master's thesis, not a doctoral dissertation as cited. Corrected the error. Added a thorough quote from De Vera:

The suspected sock account, under the username Harkenbane, added a section called “Jewish eugenics” and removed a separate section with the justification, “This section perpetuated the myth that eugenics and Nazi Germany are strongly linked, and has been edited for historical accuracy.”[78] Another editor, Fastfission, was alarmed by these unsolicited or discussed revisions and reverted them immediately, noting that all claims made in the article about Nazi Germany are backed with citations to credible sources. Fastfission wrote wrote, “[I] suspect very much the motivations of this user; the entire edit smacks a very nasty sort of revisionism and denial.”[79] A third editor, SlimVirgin, agreed and speculated that Harkenbane may have been a sock puppet account from a fringe website. This prompted Harkenbane to respond, who dismissed all of their accusations and instead doubled down on their claim that Nazi Germany and eugenics was not connection, calling it an “urban legend.”[80]

I checked the Wiki source for the 78-80 footnotes, which is Talk:Eugenics/Archive_1#Reverted changes, "myth". The Harkenbane March 2, 2005 edit also checks out, it adds a section that mentions "Jewish eugenics" though the subheading is "Contemporary backlash." As @Butterscotch Beluga pointed out, WP:RS guidelines state: "Masters dissertations and theses are considered reliable only if they can be shown to have had significant scholarly influence." Still, for the RS guideline: "Editors should generally follow it, though exceptions may apply." Should an exception be made in this instance?

• One advantage is that the article's sentence is arguably verified by De Vera's footnote to the Talk page and the Harkenbane edit perm link. If need be, the links can be put in an accompanying note.
• An advantage may be that this incident helps the reader understand the 2005 neo-Nazi campaign, discussed earlier in our article, without overstating the case.
• A disadvantage is that de Vera's 2020 thesis is not cited afaik, so inclusion would be an exception to the guideline.

Thoughts? Has anyone seen another account of the anti-Jewish editing of the Eugenics article? ProfGray (talk) 19:52, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Trivia

@ProfGray, another concern I have with the article is it about antisemitism on wikipedia, or is it simply about any mention of antisemitism in the context of wikipedia. For example, currently the article talks about some Wikipedians removing antisemitism from the infobox at Hamas, but the source doesn't say whether such removals were motivated by antisemitic bias. It seems the only reason that information is in this article is because it mentions antisemitism. Making this article about anytime antisemitism is mentioned in the context of wikipedia, seems like a bit of WP:trivia to me.VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 15:52, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

To be sure, the article should not be a list of every alleged (or even substantiated) instance of antisemitism. Let's restructure the article and enable it to give a coherent account of the topic. It will then be easier to see if it's a list of miscellaneous "trivia" in the WP sense (though some may say that antisemitism is never trivial in the ordinary sense). The Hamas point is within a source that had a fairly narrow list of 7, and Hamas itself is historically associated (rightly for wrongly) in a significant way with antisemitism, so perhaps it's best to defer judgment on that particular item, okay? ProfGray (talk) 16:17, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

The source on that Hamas point never claims that users removing antisemitism label from Hamas were motivated by antisemitism. Its "trivia" in the sense that it has nothing to do with whether Wikipedia has an antisemitic bias.VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 16:39, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Bias is often observed, alleged, or even legally determined without knowing motivation. Wikipedia comes across as biased to the author, and some of the ppl cited about Hamas, not necessarily because of the editors' motivation but because of the effect. That's the whole impact not intent discourse about bias, right? Likewise, WP's gender bias is not always done on purpose. ProfGray (talk) 16:49, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

With respect, I think you're missing the point, and that is that the source is not accusing wikipedia of being antisemitic, but accusing Hamas of being antisemitic.

More trivia: "editors allegedly methodically erased accusations of antisemitism made against the UK Labour Party." Again, the source seems to be accusing the Labour Party of being antisemitic.VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 16:54, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

That's not given in the source. It's true that there were allegations of antisemitism within the Labour Party. It was a huge scandal during Corbyn's run for PM and probably even cost him that. Andre🚐 17:01, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

The source does cover claims of anti-Israeli bias, which I think ought to be in scope for this article. I see your point that anti-Israeli bias isn't necessarily antisemitism, but I think we should remedy that by clarifying the scope in the lede, or possibly renaming, to clarify that claims of antisemitism and anti-Israeli bias are both in scope. — xDanielx ^T/_C\^R 18:06, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

It's also typical for articles to touch on closely related topics that don't technically fall under the scope implied by the title. So it might be okay without any official changes in scope, but if so we should reword to clarify that that content is about claims of anti-Israeli bias, avoiding implying anything about antisemitism. — xDanielx ^T/_C\^R 19:07, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

I agree. Antisemitism on Wikipedia or perhaps allegations of antisemitism on Wikipedia might be a better name (see Category:Allegations, with a particular nod to its subcategory of Category:Conspiracy theories (to be clear, I am not saying there is no antisemitism on Wikipedia, editors have various POVs, but this is applicable to the loudest claims that this is a systemic problem related to purposeful, coordinated editing, somethiung that has never been proven, but is a boomerang criticism). Frankly, I'd support merge, since I am concerned sources we have are low quality (mostly biased and not very reliable). _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 05:29, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

At the minute there is a strong consensus to merge, so the title isn't something we really. need to get into.Boynamedsue (talk) 07:44, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

Allegations of antisemitism on Wikipedia seems reasonable to me, since most of the incidents are not blatant antisemitism, but accusations which involve some interpretation. — xDanielx ^T/_C\^R 19:53, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

I would support this sort of renaming rather than a merge. It avoids the risk of synth and is a proper topic. BobFromBrockley (talk) 21:39, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

I find the whole business of just saying 'antisemitism' is a mess, and the problem isn't covered even in the section about the ADL where it's meaning and ambiguity/misuse was a major factor. I think "Opinion | Hamas Didn't Attack Israelis Because They Are Jewish | Common Dreams". www.commondreams.org. Retrieved 2024-11-02. about covers my feelings. I've no doubt antisemitism is high in Hamas but it wasn't the reason they attacked Israel. NadVolum (talk) 12:11, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

I think both can be true, since that dispute was about Hamas' ideology generally, which could include antisemitism even if it wasn't a primary motivation for the attack. — xDanielx ^T/_C\^R 20:22, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

Synth topic?

Are there high quality RS that treat antisemitism and wikipedia as a coherent topic? We seem to have good RS talking about certain instances of antisemitism and wikipedia, but we can't WP:synthesize individual incidents to make a topic.VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 19:24, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

I disagree that this topic is synthetic. There are a number of articles, primarily about the Holocaust fake concentration camp debacle, that do treat this as a topic. Andre🚐 19:27, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia and antisemitism is not a topic, Wikipedia and antisemitic bias might be, if sufficient sourcing can be found to back that up. This article is synth city atm. Selfstudier (talk) 19:38, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Andrevan Can you link that article? I'm curious if it covers the I-P dispute. VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 19:39, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Something like this perhaps [8] and no, those articles are about WWII not the I-P stuff. For that, something like this [9] or this [10] regarding the ADL stuff is relevant. Note that these are about Wikipedia and antisemitism in the sense that they are about coverage of antisemitism on Wikipedia, not that Wikipedia is antisemitic. Andre🚐 19:57, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, so my major objection was connecting the Holocaust to I-P stuff under the umbrella of antisemitism is a violation of WP:SYNTH.VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 23:19, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Probably a moot point now, but that isn't synth. Both relate to the topic. Andre🚐 01:39, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

It is absolutely synth. Can you find a source that discusses both wikipedia's holocaust coverage and I-p coverage in the context of antisemitism? See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of antisemitic incidents in Kemp Mill, Maryland. The article consisted of antisemitic incidents that all individually met WP:V, but there was no single RS covering the phenomenon of antisemitism across Kemp Mill as a whole.VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 04:26, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

That's not what synth is. It's not synth if you have an article about antisemitism and it covers one thing about antisemitism and another thing also about it, but not related to the first thing. That's simply juxtaposition. WP:SYNTHNOT. The example you gave is WP:NLIST, not synth. Andre🚐 04:37, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

WP:SYNTHNOTJUXTAPOSITION allows for juxtaposition only when there's no insinuation. In this case, the insinuation is that banning ADL as a source was motivated by antisemitism, the same kind of antisemitism that lead to Holocaust revisionism on wikipedia. While the first 3 (of the 5 sources provided by ProfGray) do deal with The Holocaust, they say nothing about the I-P conflict. The last 2 (if they constitute RS at all — I thought we agreed the ADL is not RS?) deal with I-P but don't connect it to Holocaust revisionism.VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 07:40, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Yep. Selfstudier (talk) 12:51, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

The first source (Oboler 2010) does include a case characterized as an "anti-Jewish agenda" with a campaign of "antisemitism." (p.292) Another case deals with Holocaust and I-P as follows: "In one change, a research finding stating that War on Want was “accused of making political use of ‘Holocaust and anti-Semitic themes’” was revised by Evelyn727 to state that the NGO was accused of being “involved in international lobbying to isolate Israel.”" etc. Also cases related to I-P. @Vice regent

The Holocaust-related criticisms are a subset of antisemitism, right? Not all I-P criticisms refer to antisemitism, of course, but some explicitly do. I will try to check the other Holocaust sources as they get written up for the article. ProfGray (talk) 14:22, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

This article here should be merged/redirected per consensus and if editors wish to start a new article from scratch about an identifiable topic that is not simply a recreation of this one, then they can do that. Selfstudier (talk) 14:45, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

The Merge discussion was reopened, which means that it is acceptable to continue editing this article. Indeed, there is an explicit window of at least 4 days for editing, per this diff, before an anticipated AfD. Articles may also be edited during an AfD. ProfGray (talk) 15:27, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Not saying you can't edit, my suggestion is cleaner, the article as is, just a mess and tweaking it won't help. Selfstudier (talk) 15:35, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

@ProfGray You are correct. That source does indeed talk about antisemitism in the actions of Alberuni and Evelyn727. However, these mentions don't seem to be significant, one paragraph on antisemitism and less than half a sentence on Holocaust.VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 15:28, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

That is plenty significance enough. Andre🚐 15:34, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

We'll test that assertion at AfD. Selfstudier (talk) 15:36, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

The entire Alberuni case is about antisemitism, even if the word 'antisemitism' is not repeated in paragraphs about "names attacking Jews" and so on. Likewise, the entire Evelyn727 case is about "Holocaust and antisemitic themes," though the author doesn't repeat the wording. These cases are relevant insofar as it shows that Oboler (2010) covers a range of "criticism elimination" efforts, not limited to I-P. (Relevant to some views of SYNTH, which I am not addressing myself at this stage.)

As for significance for Notability, this will likely depend be gauged by the overall coverage of the topic by reliable sources such as Oboler, but not Oboler alone. ProfGray (talk) 15:44, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Agreed Andre🚐 15:50, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

There are 3 short paragraphs on Alberuni (177 words). I don't agree that entire Evelyn727 was about antisemitism, and in any case it mentions them as having made only 18 edits. VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 16:02, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Number of edits is not relevant, it's the weight given in reliable sources. 3 paragraphs is sufficient to be more than a passing mention. I also agree with ProfGray that it's obviously about antisemitic themes even though it doesn't explicitly have to mention that exact wording for it to be clear in context. Even if it's not "entirely" about it, that is not the criterion here. Something given space and time in reliable work that relates to this topic may be included. It's only SYNTH if it makes a conclusion not present by combining disparate material. "Being related" or "entirely about" isn't SYNTH. It's an extra-narrow comb not justified by the usual method of article writing or any guideline. Andre🚐 17:08, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

For your question about RS sources, see my comment above at this diff: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Wikipedia%20and%20antisemitism&diff=1254534776&oldid=1254500739 ProfGray (talk) 19:45, 31 October 2024 (UTC) ProfGray (talk) 19:45, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Seems pretty arguably WP:SYNTHy to group a lot of disparate topics ranging from user behavior on an online forum (always inappropriate conduct), the Holocaust denial controversy a few years ago, and the current conflation of wikipedia's coverage of Israel/Palestine conflict and antisemitism. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 16:16, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

The article's recent edits make it read even more like an essay than before! It is basically creating an argument that WP is antisemitic rather than cataloging the arguments of people who think that. The case for a minimalist merge gets stronger with every edit.Boynamedsue (talk) 07:49, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

I agree that this article should describe the arguments (or findings) of people who think that WP has antisemitic bias, so thank you for placing specific tags. I will try to address these concerns and please continue to give feedback. @Boynamedsue

• For a lead section, citations need not be given because it summarizes what comes below. Is that a suitable approach for the first sentence of each section? If not, then those sentences would need to be deleted. If yes, then perhaps these sentences do not properly summarize what follows? I will review these sentences tomorrow. IINM, some of the OR and by whom tags are on sentences that were moved but I had not yet reviewed, so I (or others) should do so.
• For the Makhortykh point about 3 wikipedias has users pushing Holocaust denial, I added a quote to the citation. Would it be better to say WPs 'had some' users?
• On Deborah Lipstadt, added a quote to the citation and reworded. Hoping her concerns are more clear now.
• Last sentence on JVL and NGOM -- I have not reviewed that sentence but it seems problematic, at least because our article doesn't say what objections were raised to these WP bans.

Thanks again for tagging sentences to be improved. ProfGray (talk) 03:59, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

P.S. Now I see that there are helpful comments in the edit summaries for the tags -- I plan to look at these tomorrow (or Monday). ProfGray (talk) 04:04, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Today I revised or removed sentences that were tagged. Not sure who provided each tag, but any review of these edits would be appreciated. ProfGray (talk) 19:25, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Anti Zionism?

Given that anti zionism has its own article here, maybe we also need one about Wikipedia and anti-zionism. Anti Zionism and anti-semitism aren't one and the same thing. MaskedSinger (talk) 12:32, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Well, there many solid sources about Wikipedia's handling of antisemitism. Are there any reliable sources that significantly cover anti-Zionism on Wikipedia? Fwiw, if there are such sources, I'd be willing to work on such an article (or section of an existing article). ProfGray (talk) 12:39, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

There was the piratewires article. Would it be easier to make wikipedia and anti zionism a subsection of this article? MaskedSinger (talk) 12:41, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Not really, it would belong in the existing article, Wikipedia and the Israeli–Palestinian conflict, which would be worth checking out. Anti-Zionism is not a (necessary) subset of antisemitism, but it does fit readily as an I-P topic. ProfGray (talk) 12:44, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

ok great! thanks for your counsel :) MaskedSinger (talk) 12:56, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

That is not a reliable source for this. Simonm223 (talk) 12:57, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Anti Zionism and anti-semitism If we can have the current title then that title is also possible. Selfstudier (talk) 13:05, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Agreed, that title is possible, though arguments from precedent (and disputed precedent) tend to be less effective than those based directly on WP policy, such as WP:AND. Also, perhaps this title is off-topic to a thread dealing with Wikipedia and a subtopic. ProfGray (talk) 13:37, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

RS decision on ADL regarding antisemitism

For this Wikipedia and antisemitism article, a highly relevant part of the RS decision about ADL deals with their reliability on antisemitism, excluding Israel and Zionism. We have various options, using the primary source (WP) or reliable secondary sources:

1. Full quote from the Perennial sources list: "The ADL can roughly be taken as reliable on the topic of antisemitism when Israel and Zionism are not concerned, and the reliability is a case-by-case matter. There is consensus that the labelling of organisations and individuals by the ADL as antisemitic should be attributed. The ADL has also demonstrated a habit of conflating criticism of the Israeli government's actions with antisemitism."
2. Quote the first line of the statement above.
3. Mention or define the status of "No consensus," such as: "The source is marginally reliable (i.e. neither generally reliable nor generally unreliable), and may be usable depending on context." (Per WP:RSP)
4. Quote from the archived "close" of the consensus: "There was insufficient argumentation against the ADL's reliability regarding antisemitism in other contexts; much of the opposition in that regard focused on subjective disagreements as to how far the taint of the Israel-related general unreliability should spread. The ADL can roughly be taken as reliable on the topic of antisemitism when Israel and Zionism are not concerned. We remind editors that source reliability is always a case-by-case matter. RSN's purpose is to answer the general case. The reliability of a given statement by a source, for a given statement in a Wikipedia article, must always be decided by that article's editors."
5. Quote and summarize secondary sources that mentions the antisemitism (excluding Israel and Zionism) part of the decision. While most sources came out before the June 21 close (i.e., JTA-1, The Independent, New Arab News, CNN, The Forward, The Hill.), but after the close there's this:

• Jewish Journal: "Wikipedia editors have designated the Anti-Defamation League (ADL) as only being a reliable source “on the topic of antisemitism when Israel and Zionism are not concerned, and the reliability is a case-by-case matter.” and "The remaining two parts were closed all at once on June 21 with the conclusion that “the ADL can roughly be taken as reliable on the topic of antisemitism when Israel and Zionism are not concerned.”" also quoting from the close: "“While the second part in theory encompassed all ADL coverage of antisemitism, much of the discussion focused, explicitly or implicitly, on that intersection. There was insufficient argumentation against the ADL’s reliability regarding antisemitism in other contexts; much of the opposition in that regard focused on subjective disagreements as to how far the taint of the Israel-related general unreliability should spread.” The closers reminded “editors that source reliability is always a case-by-case matter.”
• Washington Post reported: "[WMF said:] “Several media reports have incorrectly implied that the ADL is no longer considered a reliable source on Wikipedia. The ADL remains a generally reliable source on Wikipedia, outside of the topic of the Israel/Palestine conflict,” per the Wikimedia statement."
• JTA-2 (June 27) stated: "Editors had also debated whether the ADL was reliable on antisemitism, and the vast majority said the group could not be trusted because of how it conflates criticism of Israel with antisemitism. An uninvolved editor tasked with evaluating the community’s will ultimately opted for a nuanced decision, declaring that the ADL “can roughly be taken as reliable on the topic of antisemitism when Israel and Zionism are not concerned.”
• Haaretz (June 25): "Furthermore, in what amounted to an almost unanimous consent, numerous Wikipedia editors expressed their view that the ADL should also be excluded from being cited as a factual source on antisemitism. Their belief is that the ADL has been functioning predominantly as a pro-Israel advocacy group that frequently categorizes valid criticisms of Israel as antisemitic." IMO this may be correct about the discussion, but not the close.

Proposal is that the article be clear about WP's decision for ADL on antisemitism, excluding Israel & Zionism, with at least two elements: (A) "ADL can roughly be taken as reliable" as quoted by JTA-2 or Jewish Journal, and (B) a caveat, such as "case-by-case" (JJ) and/or in-text attribution required (WP:RSP). In addition, since the lead sentence describes the status options, would it be good to include the assigned status, which is "marginally reliable...etc" (aka "No consensus")? Thanks to @SashiRolls for prodding me to see the differing sources and wording. ProfGray (talk) 14:56, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

This is about WP and ADL not about WP and AS. Selfstudier (talk) 18:23, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Since antisemitism is named in almost every quote (#1, #4, JJ, JTA-2, Haaretz), and the proposal, what aspect of the above is not about WP and AS? Thanks. ProfGray (talk) 13:42, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

The only relevant info to this article is that ADL was categorized by Wikipedia as MREL (WP:ADLAS) in respect of AS. That's it. Selfstudier (talk) 13:48, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Isn't my entire comment, and proposal, exactly about how to we should write up that ADL was categorized by Wikipedia as MREL (WP:ADLAS) in respect of AS or did I accidentally include some other aspect?ProfGray (talk) 15:08, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 3 November 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Procedural close. There is a valid merge discussion ongoing on the talk page, which appears to have a rough consensus, but has not yet been closed. This was also affirmed in the AfD that was also prematurely filed that the merge discussion should run its course and no other processes should interfere in the meantime. (closed by non-admin page mover) Raladic (talk) 19:35, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

---

Wikipedia and antisemitism → Allegations of antisemitism on Wikipedia – One of the names suggested by Piotrus. The article primarily covers cases which are too controversial to label as antisemitism in wikivoice, so I think Antisemitism on Wikipedia would be a WP:POVNAME. The current Wikipedia and antisemitism might be okay (see also WP:AND), but "allegations" or "accusations" feels a bit safer, making it extra clear that the scope includes allegations whose merit Wikipedia does not take a position on. "Allegations" also feels like the most conventional name, matching most names in Category:Allegations. — xDanielx ^T/_C\^R 17:15, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

• Support, seems to be an improvement. Andre🚐 17:40, 3 November 2024 (UTC)
• Alternative. Consider the reasons for Antisemitic bias on Wikipedia:

• Key reason is that some cases are clearly established, not disputed. These don't fit well under the title of an 'allegation,' such as:

1. Neo-Nazi attack on Jewish ethnocentrism and other articles,
2. Sanctions on indiv editors cited in academic literature,
3. Wikipedia's responsiveness to swastikas and other vandalism.
4. Edit disputes over removing antisemitic views of organizations or individuals, e.g., Father Coughlin

• Most of the academic findings of bias in the article, which are not contested, would not be referred to as "allegations."
• Consistency with Racial bias on Wikipedia that likewise covers accusations that are not in wikivoice.
• IINM, the "allegations" level items are the ADL case and the Grabowski-Klein article, right? While important, perhaps these should not sway the entire topic.

I appreciate the spirit of renaming and glad that it will be limited to antisemitism and not anti-Israel. Thanks for moving conversation forward. ProfGray (talk) 17:41, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

I agree with this, too. Andre🚐 17:41, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Besides allegations about ADL and Grabowski Klein, there are a few isolated "allegations" that may or may not remain in article (i.e., UK Labour, Hamas). I haven't fully reviewed them and they, and others that come along, should not be written in wikivoice. ProfGray (talk) 18:11, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

I agree some cases are clearly established, but I figure both names are imperfect for reflecting a combination of established and alleged antisemitism, so it might be best to go with the more conservative option. Particularly since this is at risk of being deleted due to POV concerns (despite it not being a standard reason for deletion); I figure a rename like this might assuage some concerns.

I would argue that some other content should be viewed as allegations, like "Jew tagging" could plausibly be non-malicious, or there could be non-malicious explanations for correlations with language like "lobby" and "conspiracy". — xDanielx ^T/_C\^R 19:08, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

I agree that this issue belongs more on the Criticism of Wikipedia entry than it does here. I remember going through and removing the tag "French Jew" from around 50 or 60 pages back in mid November 2018 because either there was no reference or the category was not defining. Most of those I've looked back in on have been reinstated by IPs... usually because they've found a reference that shows that someone in the family was Jewish (in one case a biography of the father). Is this anti-Semitism or Jewish pride? It seems to me very difficult to know for sure, but it nevertheless represents a problem for the GDPR, in my opinion, to say that "Janine X's father was from a Jewish family" and to categorize Janine as a French Jew, if Janine herself considers that nobody's business but her own. (For full disclosure in the case I have in mind the IP did not reinstate the category:French Jew label but instead added category:French people of X-ian-Jewish descent.) The source speaks about the ease with which it is possible to categorize people into ad hoc lists based on religion, which -- as it happens -- is illegal in the country I live in. This is why I think it's better suited to the criticism of wikipedia entry, a source indicating someone's religion is not an ad hoc list in the way that Wikipedian categories are... -- SashiRolls ^{🌿 · 🍥} 20:33, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for the additional context on that. The source mentions antisemitism as a "possible" motive, but it does like a fairly weak/speculative connection, so I think it may be reasonable to remove (though cc I.am.a.qwerty who I think was the author of that). — xDanielx ^T/_C\^R 03:05, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

I agree with this. Most of the content of this page is simply a reporting of factual occurrences - they aren't "allegations" because they clearly happened. If editors want to argue that maligning Jews isn't antisemitism then the place for that is the antisemitism article, not here. Fig (talk) 17:43, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Comment Still not seeing any reason why this cannot be merged per the already established consensus, any editor may recreate a different article/scope if they believe it meets GNG.Selfstudier (talk) 18:36, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Most arguments for merging/deleting were based on fixable issues rather than notability, so we've been working to address them. — xDanielx ^T/_C\^R 19:24, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Editors are still adding !votes to merge, this starts to look like an end run around consensus procedures. Selfstudier (talk) 19:26, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

The merge was proposed mere hours after creation. The present article bears little resemblance to that initial version, and it's still evolving, with issues actively being addressed. Moreover, from a procedural perspective AfD is the more appropriate forum for a proposed merge that largely has the effect of deletion, and an AfD is forthcoming. — xDanielx ^T/_C\^R 19:51, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Afaics, there is not even agreement on a title or a scope, never mind any other problems. Selfstudier (talk) 19:59, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Well yes, but this very discussion is an effort to settle on a name/scope. — xDanielx ^T/_C\^R 20:00, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

The cleanest and simplest procedure is to carry out the merge, then do a fresh start with only appropriate material. The material will not be lost. Selfstudier (talk) 20:03, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

I'm not sure where you're seeing that, as my reading is that the vast majority of merge !votes are citing WP:POVFORK, which would be an issue of the article's scope & coverage as a whole rather then just fixable issues with regards to content. Butterscotch Beluga (talk) 19:46, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

True, but it's not clear what it would be a fork of, so it seems like POV fork is being used as a misnomer for an article with a WP:POVNAME or other POV issues? If so, I would think alternate names or other neutrality improvements could alleviate the concerns. — xDanielx ^T/_C\^R 19:59, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Well the merge discussion refers to Criticism of Wikipedia as the target, so it should be safe to assume that, unless stated otherwise, those people think it's a POV fork of the article they want to merge it into.

So again, it seems clear that, at least to me, the people !voting merge & citing WP:POVFORK are doing so because they agree with the original proposal, not because they are using the wrong terminology. Butterscotch Beluga (talk) 20:19, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Which is on the face of it, impossible, since it was created before its supposed fork-parent. Andre🚐 20:01, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Huh? This article is only a little over a week old & the original proposed merge was to Criticism of Wikipedia, an article created in 2004. Butterscotch Beluga (talk) 20:05, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

My apologies, got my wires crossed and thought I was responding to a different merge proposal. Striking. Andre🚐 20:07, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

No problem. Butterscotch Beluga (talk) 20:08, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

• Procedural close A valid and clear cut consensus exists for a merge. Editors with ideas that the content should be this or that or the article title this or the other can sort that out after the merge is carried out. Selfstudier (talk) 19:30, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

  An AfD is forthcoming, you can make your case there. No reason we can't try to improve the article in the meantime. — xDanielx ^T/_C\^R 19:52, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

  And lo it forthcame. Folly Mox (talk) 22:31, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

• Support-ish. If this page remains as a standalone page (which I oppose, having supported either deletion or merging), then it would be an improvement to get away from the "A and B" title structure. I'm not terribly fond of "Allegations" in the title, but some sort of non-and title would be an improvement. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:43, 3 November 2024 (UTC)
• Weak support per my comment above, although I still think a merge would be sufficient. ProfGray and others make some fair points that the current title might actually be ok too, as would be others, so... shrug. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 07:23, 4 November 2024 (UTC)
• Procedural close A merge discussion which at present has a strong consensus to close is still open. People need to stop opening discussions until that one is concluded.Boynamedsue (talk) 10:33, 4 November 2024 (UTC)
• Support. A better description of the article. Coretheapple (talk) 19:05, 5 November 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose, leave it as is MaskedSinger (talk) 19:38, 5 November 2024 (UTC)
• Support seems less of a pov title Bluethricecreamman (talk) 14:25, 6 November 2024 (UTC)
• Support I also oppose a standalone page and supported a merge per ongoing reopened merge discussion, so if not that then this instead.Selfstudier (talk) 15:00, 6 November 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose - Use of "allegations" is a weasel word implying that the claims in the article are not established, when most of them clearly are. Denial of antisemitism is itself one of the most prevalent forms of antisemitism these days. Qualiesin (talk) 00:53, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose This is a WP:OTHERCONTENT (that essay is an essay) argument, but per reasoning like at the Talk:Donald_Trump_and_fascism#Requested_move_29_October_2024 close, I think the title is fair. Not sure this should be a separate article, but that is another question. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:25, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose. Either have Antisemitism on wikipedia (backed by quality scholarly sources), or don't have this article at all. "Allegations of antisemitism" on wikipedia will produce an article that is a collection of baseless allegations, which is not what wikipedia is meant to be.VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 04:49, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.