Commons:Village pump/Copyright/Archive/2024/12

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1928 image with large watermark

I posted this over at WP:Media Copyright Questions and they suggested I ask here instead.

I would like to add THIS IMAGE to the C&O desk article of the desk being used by the Van Sweringen brothers in 1928. The issue is that while the image should be out of copyright a large watermark appears on the picture by the historic society that uploaded it. Does this watermark make the image unusable? Can I upload it then ask for help removing the watermark? Is it not actually out of copyright because of this watermark? Any help would be appreciated. Found5dollar (talk) 16:55, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

@Found5dollar:
  1. It is possible that the watermark is itself copyrighted (though elsewhere we've already considered it below the threshold of originality). You'd have to research that. But, assuming it is not:
  2. Whether it is usable is up to the party that wishes to use it. You can upload it to Commons. Just remember to tag it with {{Watermarked}}.
  3. Yes, you can request help retouching it: Commons:Graphic Lab/Photography workshop. - Jmabel ! talk 17:03, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
  • Without more information about the provenance of this image, we can't assess its copyright status. There are multiple ways in which an archival photo like this from 1928 could still be protected by copyright. Is there any evidence other than its age that leads you to think it's free? --Rlandmann (talk) 21:51, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

CC-BY-SA-4.0-Picture retouched

Hello,

I uploaded a pict, that was a little bit retouched by me: File:BMW Vision Neue Klasse X-foreground-bottom-right-retouched.jpg. Could you please double-check, if my data are sufficient (base is File:BMW Vision Neue Klasse X.jpg). In the past I could put in the original file and the fotographer with the upload. If something has to be corrected, please change it and let me know. Thank you very much in advance. Best regards Wikisympathisant (talk) 18:20, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

Meanwhile I found a better Retouched-brick and categories were automatically reduced, now this topic should be ok. So it remains the question about change of the upload-procedure. KR, Wikisympathisant (talk) 18:52, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
Convenience link: File:BMW Vision Neue Klasse X-foreground-bottom-right-retouched.jpg. - Jmabel ! talk 19:17, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
@Wikisympathisant: looks fine to me. - Jmabel ! talk 19:19, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

I'm interested in uploading self-made SVG versions of the Turkish military insignia to feature in Wikipedia (regiment-level bodies). The issue is that (on the contrary to most countries) the Turkish copyright law does not consider government emblems/works created by pubic servants in public domain. They also don't have licenses on government websites. Therefore, as a Commons newbie, I cannot find any way to legitimately upload such content. Some people I have seen just credited such works for themselves, and claimed they are the sole owners of the work, but I think such an action would not be allowed. Thanks! AscendencyXXIV (talk) 02:21, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

Hello @AscendencyXXIV, unfortunately there is no "trick" that we can apply here, other than hosting any insignia that are below the threshold of originality (TOO). Gnom (talk) 18:04, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
Or old enough to be out of copyright. - Jmabel ! talk 19:21, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
Note that is a continuation of a discussion at [1]. Please, @AscendencyXXIV, when continuing a conversation in a different, even a more appropriate place, link what has already been discussed. - Jmabel ! talk 19:23, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

Graffiti in Rome

Hello,
I took several pictures of the building of the Metropoliz in Rome. I know that there is no freedom of panorama in Italy – but at the same time pictures like this one and this one do not seem to have a problem (?)
Here's my question: Can I upload pictures on Commons with CC BY 4.0 of the Metropoliz-building, resembling this one or this one? Meaning: Pictures of the building from the outside with Graffiti on the walls? Kaethe17 (Villa Massimo 24) (talk) 18:51, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

@Kaethe17 (Villa Massimo 24): I am afraid but the two example photos that are already on Commons would most probably need to be deleted because the graffitis are so prominent in them that they are not permissible under the de minimis principle (in German: de:Beiwerk). What you could do, however, only upload those of your photos where the graffitis are only visible "in the background". We can also help you with this selection if you want. Gnom (talk) 18:13, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
Hi Gnom, thank you for the helpful answer. Please take a look at these 3 pictures: 1, 2, 3. I uploaded them after asking Raymond for advice. I understood that they should be ok – are they? Regarding the rest of my pictures, I will try to get CC BY 4.0-releases by the artists for them. Wish me luck :-D --Kaethe17 (Villa Massimo 24) (talk) 09:14, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
Hi @Kaethe17 (Villa Massimo 24), 3 is definitely fine, 1 should be OK as well, but the design in 2 is most probably copyrighted... Gnom (talk) 09:42, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
@Gnom I thought 2 would be old enough but it is based on the motive of File:We Can Do It! NARA 535413 - Restoration 2.jpg. Per above image description it is not copyrighted in the US. But maybe I am on the wrong side? Raymond (talk) 09:47, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
I understand, but I would say that this derivative work of the public domain original is creative enough to be copyrighted in itself. Gnom (talk) 10:05, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
I see, thank you for your review. I am sorry @Kaethe17 (Villa Massimo 24). Raymond (talk) 10:09, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
No problem, good to know. Will add this picture to the ones that I will try to get a release by the artists for. Thank you, Raymond and Gnom. Kaethe17 (Villa Massimo 24) (talk) 10:15, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

Images from Croatian Ministry of Defence

Is image published by Croatian MoD is can be considered as public domain? for example these images. It's terms of use states:
Copyright © 2008-2023 Ministry of Defense of the Republic of Croatia.
All rights reserved.
Contents from these pages can be transferred without special permission, with reference to the source. Ckfasdf (talk) 00:31, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

  • There's a copyright notice, so it's definitely not public domain.
As to whether it's under a sufficiently free license for the Commons, it's uncertain. The license statement allows images to be "transferred", which I take to mean re-published as-is, but it's not certain (to me, anyway), whether modification of the images is permitted, which we require for the Commons. There's an email address on the page, so it would be worth getting in touch with their media team to verify that edits and alterations to the images are permitted. Please forward any response to the VRT ( permissions-commons@wikimedia.org ) for the record. --Rlandmann (talk) 01:08, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
  • @Rlandmann: Thank you for your suggestion. I've sent an email to the media team of Croatian MoD as suggested.
I asked here because I've seen other contributors upload images from their website, but the vague terms of use leave me unsure if these are compliant or potential copyvio. I'll forward any response I receive to the VRT for documentation. Ckfasdf (talk) 13:44, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

en:File:Mariya_Petrovna_Nesterenko.jpg

Is there a way to keep track of files like this, which will enter the public domain in 2031/2 (author died in 2006)? JayCubby (talk) 20:03, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

@JayCubby: Hi, Died in 2006? So you probably mean that it can be restored in 2077. It can be added in this page. Yann (talk) 20:13, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
Yeah, I'd also add to it the Undelete in 2077 category, why did you think it would be restored in 2032? Abzeronow (talk) 20:15, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
The USSR has a copyright term of life + 25 years, though the US has life + 70 years (I may have forgotten about the US aspect...).
A second question:
I don't have a lot of experience with the Hirtle chart, but could it be PD due to formality issues in 2031. JayCubby (talk) 20:39, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
Ah, Russia extended copyright a few times since the USSR, COM:Russia, Russia is now Life + 70 (with a 4 year extension to those who worked during the en:Great Patriotic War (term).) Abzeronow (talk) 20:46, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
Ah, thanks! That probably settles the affair then. JayCubby (talk) 20:48, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
If it was never on Commons, I don't think we usually track that. But, yes, Category:Undelete in 2077 is where we would track that if we do. - Jmabel ! talk 21:47, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

Maps from New Zealand

Appreciated community: I need your help.

I'm considering upload to Commons this map and this other map. However, I'm confused about the copyright issues.

While in the pages linked they say about these maps that "No known copyright restrictions", the rules of Commons about intelectual property rules of New Zealand contradict these declarations.

What can I do in regards to these maps? Thanks in advance. Babelia (talk) 19:53, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

It looks like a very old map. Ruslik (talk) 20:14, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
For the first one, the map itself is PD, the images accompanying it are likely also PD, text on the bottom is from 1969. Abzeronow (talk) 20:18, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
  • This appears to be the 1808/1812 original of the first map by Laurie & Whittle, which in this form is certainly free of copyright. On the modern map, the kangaroo in the bottom right appears to be inspired by George Stubbs' painting but is sufficiently different as to probably be separately copyrightable. Cook's portrait is after Nathaniel Dance-Holland's official portrait of him, probably also sufficiently different as to be separately copyrightable. It's probably a similar story for the various other images that I either can't make out or don't recognise. The text at the bottom of the map is modern and copyrightable, credited to "A. D. McKinlay, M.A.". New Zealand copyright on literary works expires 50 years after the death of the author. An Arthur David McKinlay published books on New Zealand history between 1933 and 1969. Separately, an Arthur David McKinlay born in 1899 obtained an M.A. from a New Zealand university in 1930 and died in New Zealand in 1977, so could well be the same person. If so, the text will be protected by copyright until 2028.
As to the modern images in the map, it was published in 1969, and New Zealand copyright on artistic works expires 50 years after publication (2020) for anonymous works. So the question is, can we identify the artist? A bit of detective work might be necessary to see if there's any record of who they might have been.
The second map is by the New Zealand Department of Land and Surveys, a government department, today Land Information New Zealand (LINZ). New Zealand government works are subject to Crown copyright which lasts for 100 years. Unless the copyright on this specific map has been released, its copyright will expire in 2075. I note that the copy hosted by the National Library of New Zealand says "This image may be used, copied and re-distributed free of charge in any format or media", which is not free enough for Commons because we need to allow commercial, for-profit re-use as well. You could check with LINZ to ask about the copyright status. --Rlandmann (talk) 22:08, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
Appreciated @Rlandmann:
In regards to the first map, the page I linked says:

What can I do with this item?
Share it - This item is suitable for copying and sharing with others, without further permission.
Modify it - This item is suitable for modifying, remixing and building upon, without further permission.
Use it commercially - This item is suitable for commercial use, without further permission.

As for the second map, the LINZ site says that:

Unless otherwise specified, content produced by Toitū Te Whenua Land Information New Zealand is licensed under the Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 International licence. In essence you are free to copy, distribute, and adapt the work, as long as you attribute the work to Toitū Te Whenua Land Information New Zealand and abide by the other licence terms.

So, what do you think? Babelia (talk) 18:47, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
You can contact Auckland Libraries to clarify the copyright of the image in question, some of their images are CC-0 which are listed as 'No known copyright restrictions'. There is a form on the file page to do so. Traumnovelle (talk) 22:50, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
@Traumnovelle: I think I can guess what you mean to say, but "No known copyright restrictions" is not CC-0. The only way something becomes CC-0 is for someone who owns the copyright to overtly offer the CC-0 license. Something that aged out of copyright decades ago cannot possible be CC-0. - Jmabel ! talk 06:44, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
I saw an image listed as no known copyright restrictions that was taken recently enough that it couldn't be PD, after emailing the library I was told it was released without copyright (or something to that effect). I can try and see what exactly was said. Traumnovelle (talk) 06:47, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
  • @Babelia: The notice on the first map also says that you "You must always check with Auckland Libraries to confirm the specific terms of use" (emphasis added). In this case, I'd be asking them who Hooker and Co. Ltd. are/were and how Auckland Libraries know that copyright has expired or was transferred into the Public Domain (since it appears that at least one author has not been dead long enough).
Auckland Libraries also notes the Islands of the South Pacific map as "No known copyright restrictions", which contradicts what LINZ has to say, so I think we need to be careful about taking the Auckland Libraries website at face value for archival content.
Have you been able to find Islands of the South Pacific on the LINZ website? The map predates Creative Commons licenses by nearly 30 years, so unless it has ever been re-published under this license, or you can find/obtain a statement that LINZ applies this license retroactivally to all material previously published by them and their predecessor organizations, it would still appear to be covered by Crown copyright. Assuming LINZ is prepared to make such a statement, obtaining one and forwarding it to the VRT would be incredibly useful to opening the door to a large amount of New Zealand cartography that could be hosted on the Commons. It would be really great if you could get a definitive answer. --Rlandmann (talk) 02:45, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

Is File:Flag of the Agua Caliente Band of Cahuilla Indians.gif above TOO?

Is File:Flag of the Agua Caliente Band of Cahuilla Indians.gif above Threshold of Originality in the United States? The flag features a geometric pattern, but it's a complex one. Its colouring is also complex, with what appears to be shading and small details. I'm leaning to this being above TOO but would like confirmation since I'm uncertain. Intervex (talk) 21:43, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

In my opinion, the design, coloring and shading as well as lettering position make this meet the Threshhold of Originality and therefore copyright applies. It's funny you've picked the two indigenous peoples I'm most familiar with. Bastique ☎ let's talk! 22:22, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

So this flag is much older than Creative Commons, and the license appears to have picked by user who made the SVG version. I'm not sure it's the right copyright tag for this flag though.

You can read about the flag's history here: [2]. It was first made by Karoniaktajeh Louis Hall in what is considered Canada, but the flag is in protest of Canadian colonialism. It feels inappropriate to try and apply Canadian copyright law to it. (It is recent enough and above Threshold of Originality that by default it would be copyrighted in Canada.)

Hall died in 1993. In his will, Hall left the original paintings to the Warrior Society in Kahnawake (see link above). Kahente Horn-Miller from the Mohawk Council of Kahnawake has gone on record saying [3]:

"This image may officially belong to the Men’s Society of Kahnawá:ke but it is meant for everyone to use. If someone sells a t-shirt or a pin with the image on it, so be it. If someone uses aspects of it to communicate their own message, so be it. Copyright and exclusion are the antithesis to this flag’s meaning. Karoniaktajeh would be happy to see that the message of unity is spreading further, as he intended it to."

I'm not sure what copyright tag would be most suitable for this flag. It certainly seems intended to have a free license, but I can't find any writing online from Hall that spells out any terms of use. Creative commons seems anachronistic. Suggestions? Intervex (talk) 03:17, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

  • The various CC licenses are specific in nature, and so only the person who owns the copyright to a work can place it under these licences. That is, even if a copyright holder specifies terms that overlap completely with CC-BY (for example), it's not actually CC-BY unless the copyright holder says it is.
The questions, as I see them are:
  • is Dr Horn-Miller empowered under either Canadian or tribal law to make this statement on behalf of the Men's Society of Kahnawá:ke?
  • The statement as supplied says that free re-use without further permission is OK, does not ask for attribution, and specifically allows commercial use, but it's not clear to me whether derivative works are allowed. Are they? (Keeping in mind that permitting such use would also permit disrespectful or disparaging use)
I would start by contacting Dr Horn-Miller for advice, and the question might ultimately be one for the Men's Society of Kahnawá:ke directly.
Assuming there really are no restrictions on use, then {{PD-because}} is probably the best fit we have, together with an explanation of the rationale. I'd also forward all correspondence to the VRT to keep on file. --Rlandmann (talk) 06:13, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
I would think that "uses aspects of it to communicate their own message" could be sufficient for allowing for derivative works, if this is a valid granting of license in the first place, especially with the final phrase that supports a reading that releases the flag into the public domain. Felix QW (talk) 08:44, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
"Copyright and exclusion are the antithesis to this flag’s meaning" sounds like about as explicit a public domain dedication as there can be. This is an explicit renunciation of copyright. D. Benjamin Miller (talk) 10:05, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
  • In isolation, I agree. Against that, the first sentence sounds like a statement of ownership and license to use, so I'd like to be more certain about what exactly is intended here. The two parts of the statement seem contradictory to me (acknowledging also that this might be a difficulty of trying to model a system of law with a different and perhaps incompatible one). --Rlandmann (talk) 11:22, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

Official portraits of Members of the European Parliament, 10th term

There are 662 files in Category:Official portraits of Members of the European Parliament of the 10th parliamentary term, seemingly all uploaded by User:Jcornelius @Jcornelius: .

They are all drawn from https://multimedia.europarl.europa.eu/

Webpages such as https://multimedia.europarl.europa.eu/en/photo/irish-meps-official-portraits-10th-parliamentary-term_20240617_MULLOOLY_Ciaran_IE_009 indicate that only an attribution is required for these images to be used by the public.

However, https://www.europarl.europa.eu/legal-notice/en/ contradicts this, stating As a general rule, the reuse (reproduction or use) of textual data and multimedia items which are the property of the European Union (identified by the words “© European Union, [year(s)] – Source: European Parliament” or “© European Union, [year(s)] – EP”) or of third parties (© External source, [year(s)]), and for which the European Union holds the rights of use, is authorised, for personal use or for further non-commercial or commercial dissemination, provided that the entire item is reproduced and the source is acknowledged. However, the reuse of certain data may be subject to different conditions in some instances; in this case, the item concerned is accompanied by a mention of the specific conditions relating to it.

This very, very unfortunate line of text suggests the images on www.europarl.europa.eu may be under a Creative Commons Attribution-NoDerivatives license.

Which view is correct? Are these files under a useable Attribution license, or are they under a Attribution-NoDerivatives license?

Does EU law supersede the legal notice at https://multimedia.europarl.europa.eu/?

I would love for it to be the case that these files are usable but I myself was previously told they are not. CeltBrowne (talk) 23:36, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

  • The general legal notice with its ND term explicitly says that it is "a general rule". And even if it didn't, for any given page or piece of content, I would always privilege its own specific notice over a more general notice. Consider the alternative: if the general rule says that generally re-use is OK, but we found a piece of content marked "all rights reserved", we would not think that the general rule covered it.
In this case, I think the image you've linked and any like it are attribution only. As usual though, if in doubt, I recommend contacting the copyright holder or publisher for clarification. --Rlandmann (talk) 00:19, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
To be precise, they're not under a Creative Commons license either way. D. Benjamin Miller (talk) 10:03, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
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