Talk:Q622416

Multilanguage problem

I see there is an interlaguage problem, that is not (or at least not only) technical. Because sections and variables in Wikidata in more languages, Label, Definition and Also known as, seem to be intended as a kind of dictionary for interlanguage wikis, I am adressing this problem here, where I became aware of it.

Background

In many languages (most natural, but also including at least some artificialy created) the word can be associated with a set of meanings. The same word (lexememe?) in different languages could be (and often is) associated with some, but not all of the same meanings. Also, primary meaning (what first come to mind of general reader) of a lexeme also heavily depends on context. Same lexeme can be used primarily in one (set) of meaning(s) generally in live language, and other in legalese (because of a particular definition in a regulation) - whith recursive influence on general public use, which needs to abide to it, but that is not not necessarily included in general dictionries (which are often used as WP sources for verified meanings). Same pattern applies to any special dictionaries (different technologies, and branches of science, can have wildly different, sometimes even explicitly opposite definitions of meaning of a term).

For an example, I could take lexeme "even" in English, and some of meanings are

• evening (shortened, usually used poetically)
• flat, strait; oposite of rough (for a surface, or ruler)
• as a verb to make something even (in several meanings)
• dividable by two (math, opposite to odd)
• unchanging (music, for monotone rythm, or tech. where frequency doesn't change)
• just (where equal shares are distributed etc.)
• in "can't even wait" or "got even more" (adverb)

Lexemes in live languages get that a lot, as life is change by definition. It happens also in artificial languages, even where intention is to have definition and meaning exact and unique (like computer programming, etc., languages), the languages differ from compiler maker to compiler maker, from standard to standard (ANSI, JIS...), and also from version to version within each of those (through time).

It can't be prevented, unless we forbid life (which I advise against). Here some, or beter several, of these seem to apply, and are part of a problem.

Dictionaries used for WP verifiability

I mentioned dictionaries used as WP sources for verifiability of data entered; in sl:WP senior editors - based on dictionary - insist on dictionary meaning, which was valid historically (50y ago), but wasn't updated since; also, no nutical special dictionary seem to have been published yet. As a consequence sl:WP article for gliser (lexeme currently used for planning boat in sl in legalese and in nauticl community) is misleading/useless for generl public. Obviously, the way to go would be to make dictionary author(s) to update the dictiories in question, and I already would, if COVID-19 didn't so much complicate communications.

In WD, I sometimes can't enter data (for which I have WP reliable sources), probably because of constraints which don't allow to enter a value, that is not - in effect - already in WD dictionary (we used to call that allowed domain of values for a variable). It is, in essence, similar to general problem mentioned above. Here I probably have technical right to make necessary changes, but not yet knowledge of conventions (architecture, user interface...) and skill to do it right, but that shall probaly change with time.

Interlanguage problems, detailed

Boat, boot...

In all laguages I know boat or equivalent means a device intended (and designed and built and... ) for moving things (including persons) over water (and other fluids...), but in several it also means a particular size (or size interval) of such device, and these meanings seem seriously different in some languages.

English

Here, boat can be a vessel of pretty large interval of sizes and other properties. In some (nautical, marine legal, etc.) context defining properties between boat and ship can be size, existence of covered deck over the hull, etc. In several other languages' dictionaries it's first translation is small boat, and in general public awareness (and translaters often follow) it is the only meaning, except in common expressions (e.g. torpedo boat...)

German

Like in English, das Boot can be pretty much small or large (Torpedoboot, U-boot), and not defined by size. It may be Shiff is a boat with particular size of other properties (like deck). I am not that good in German, but here Motorboot is seen as both M-Boot and Motorschiff seem to confirm it.

Italian

Motoscaffo and imbarcazione mossa da un motore a combustione interna seem to aggree to any size of water transporting device, but (probaly nonintentionaly) limit the engine to internal combustion engine (and implicitly exclude electical, nuclear, etc., powered boats, and also all hybrides).

French

Here, bateau à moteur, if I understand correctly, means any floating device driven by motor (or it is that navire?), and might include rafts and similar too, when driven by motor, not boats and ships only.

Slovenian

In Slovenian, motorno plovilo means any floating device intended to move, driven by motor, which includes rafts, but not floating bevices that are designed to be stationary (e.g. pontoon bridges, floaing docks etc.) even if they can be moved driven by motor. Motorni čoln means small motor boat (legalese: 24 m or less) and motorna ladja means motor driven ship.

Croatian

Gliser is really a planning boat, as hr:WP article shows.

Proper label would be motorni čamac for small and open-deck boats and motorni brod for ships,, but I'll flag that to Croat native speaker editors to fix first, mainly because their article Gliser (about planning boat) is refferenced in this article's interlanguage links below, and that link should be changed to point to one or several article(s) aboutmotorno plovilo, motorni čamac, motorni brod. At least I should get their consent before trying to fix this.

Where is the problem?

In this case

Most of labels and descriptions are correct; most where there is difference, it is described. Error is in Italian (internal combustion only, where that limitation is not originally intended), and Croatian, where it is not only translated as planning boat, but also linked to hr planning boat article.

In general

But in essence, the problem is pretty general, and multidimentional.

One of those dimensions is multilanguage wikipedia, next dictionries ((including Wiktionary), next (professional) translators that translate texts from contexts they are unfamiliar with (and make similar mistakes as in early - and often current - computer program based translations). I have a pretty vast collection of such mistranslations, both recent and historical...

Such mistranslations can (and do) get published; published mistranslation can (and do) get in textbase from where linguists base, and source, and if they are also not familar with the context, included, for dictionary entries of live language. That is one of the ways to get mistakes into dictionaries, and often (usually) later, in general public use. In mathematics, and in computer programming, similar process could often be called recursive.

In Slovenian

Gliser - really a planning boat (speed boat, non displacement boat) - is in Slovenian WP accepted to be synonim to hydrofoil. I proposed a change on article's talk page, and was told that according to usual verifiability procedures and dictionary source entries, by a guy evidently with no, or to limited, experience in nautics, that I can't. If I tried, I estimate change would be reverted, and I would possibly start an edit war.

In fact, hydrofoil is a kind of planning boat, but every planning boat is not hydrofoil. The first widely known planing boats (aside from torpedo boads of WWII and after) in Dalmati in Adritic were ten or more hydofoils that were introduced about 1960-ies for fast passenger service between airports and Croatian Islands. In that time hydrogliser, hydrofoil and gliser were seen as synonims, and as such entered dicionaries.

Now, those hydrofoil glissers are mostly retired (and several sold abroad), and a lot of non-hydrofoil non-displcement boats were introduced. Fast interisland passenger service in Croatia is mostly served by katamaran fast boats, and several hundreds (probably thousands) of small planing boats are in both private, and public service (port authorities, police, coast guard, military etc.); as a matter of fact, proably even majority of current small power boats in eastern Adriatic can plane (and almost all, save ot one or two remaining oldsers and a prototype or two, without foils) but, but that had not been reflected in dictionary.

As I mentioned above, I intentded to initiate the necessary dictionary update, but COVID-19 regulations interfered with necessary communications so it didn't happen yet.

 – The preceding unsigned comment was added by Marjan Tomki SI (talk • contribs) at 17:13, 9 января 2022 (UTC).

@Marjan Tomki SI: I moved hr-link to another item. And I couldn't find appropriate item for it-link. Probably it needs to be created. --Infovarius (talk) 18:56, 10 January 2022 (UTC)