Harrison Ford, as Han Solo, and director Irvin Kershner in the Millennium Falcon hold. From The Making of the Empire Strikes Back, by J. W. Rinzler.

In celebration of the 30th anniversary of The Empire Strikes Back, Lucasfilm is releasing a comprehensive history of the making of the groundbreaking film, aptly titled The Making of Star Wars: The Empire Strikes Back. The book is packed with hundreds of rarely seen behind-the-scenes photographs which you can preview here. Today marks the last installment in a series of interviews coinciding with the release.

George Lucas gets all the much-deserved praise for creating the Star Wars galaxy. But with The Empire Strikes Back, director Irvin Kershner added a level of character depth that is not always present in the other installments. Kersh, as he’s called on set, is the perfect complement to Lucas. He’s a dreamer, and doesn’t shy away from what if he had directed another Star Wars movie—which, as he told VF Daily, could have happened.Over the last few weeks, corresponding over email, Kershner and I discussed a wide array of topics, ranging from the alternative reality of a Kershner-directed Return of the Jedi, the most difficult Empire scene to shoot, the news of Star Wars being released in 3-D, and why a cartoon rat may be the most important movie character of the last ten years.

__Mike Ryan: The initial reviews for Empire were mostly positive, but they were the most mixed of the original trilogy. Is it satisfying to know that, years later, Empire is the critic and fan favorite?__

Irvin Kershner: I have not given much credence to reviews of my films. Sometimes they’re wrong, but it didn’t matter to me. I have not been a follower of how many millions my films made or did not make. In this case, I wanted very much for the film to succeed because I knew that George was spending his own money on it. I think the critics felt that they were going to see an extension of Star Wars. In other words, they wanted another Star Wars. I decided that the potential was much greater than a rerun of Star Wars. When I finally accepted the assignment, I knew that it was going to be a dark film, with more depth to the characters than in the first film. It took a few years for the critics to catch up with the film and to see it as a fairy tale rather than a comic book.

Why do you think the reaction is so overwhelmingly positive today as opposed to 1980?

Fans have written over the last 30 years telling me how eagerly they awaited the second film of the trilogy. I hadn’t realized how many young children would be seeing the film, and how it would effect them. I think the kids responded to the movement, the characters, and the fairy tale quality of the film. The humor helped make the film appealing to more mature audiences as well.

Because of the cliffhanger, do you think Return of the Jedi had to be released before some people fully appreciated Empire?

I knew in the making of Empire that this was to be the second of a trilogy. Therefore I considered it the second act, the second movement—but it wouldn’t have the same climax that an ordinary film would have, where it sets up a premise, moves along, there is a payoff with a grand climax of some kind of action. The action in this film came at the beginning because it is a continuation of the first film.

I know that you turned down Return of the Jedi. Looking back— whatever the circumstances were—do you wish that you would have done it?

No. After working for two years and nine months doing Empire, and having it take so much out of my life and having given me so much, I felt that it was a complete experience and it was time to move on.

I’ve also heard you say that you “didn’t believe the script.” What didn’t you like about it?

It has been so long since I saw the film, I can’t really comment on what I didn’t like about it. I know it was not an easy film to make, and the special effects—as with Empire—are remarkable to me, given that it was not done with CGI.

I remember reading in 1983 that George was going to take two years off, then take three years to make the first prequel, which would be released in 1988. If that had actually happened in 1988 (instead of 1999), would you have considered directing one of the prequels?

Ten years later, I would have said yes to directing one of the prequels.

Do you think that films today have lost a sense of realness by using all CGI instead of models? I think even George has hinted that he’s going to scale down the CGI in Indiana Jones 5.

We were working before CGI came into perfection when we made Empire. Now almost every film—even realistic ones—rely on some kind of CG effects. CGI can be used effectively as a powerful cinematic tool, but I had no experience with it at all. Industrial Light and Magic did such an incredible job translating the shots. I can’t see how CGI could have made it better, except that it could have cut down on the shooting time.

George has announced the six Star Wars films will be re-released in 3-D. How do you feel about Empire in 3-D?

I haven’t seen any films shot in 35 mm and converted to 3-D, but I know that if it isn’t going to look great, George won’t do it.

The book says that Carrie Fisher had to go home “sick” quite a few times. Was this ever a difficulty on set?

I read that Carrie had to go home because she wasn’t well. Funny, I can’t remember her leaving the set or not coming to work because she was not feeling well, so I don’t know where this information came from.

Which actors did you get along best with? It seems like you had a special connection with Harrison Ford.

In shooting the film, I had to make three characters come alive—not just act alive, but come alive. Mark [Hamill] was incredible. He interpreted the character, gave him depth, he was a true trooper, and he was up to every challenge. Working with Yoda was a real challenge.

Carrie was very young and had not done that much work, but she was very, very bright. I possibly didn’t give her the time I should have—I was thinking of so many things—but I didn’t want to mess with her instincts because she seemed to be an intuitive actress. And she would get into a scene remarkably well so I decided to leave her alone and give her as little instruction as possible. I think it worked—her performance was wonderful.

Harrison had to play a real character with humor, depth, and love for Princess Leia. With him, I could make a simple adjustment here and there and he was very, very good.

What was tougher to shoot, Dagobah or the Carbon Freeze scene?

The toughest shoot was the Carbon Freeze scene. The set was painted black. It was a round set but we couldn’t build the full circle because it would have been very hard to manipulate with the camera. So we built half of it, and it was a challenge because it was very hot and we were using lots of steam shooting out of the floor. Some of the little people fainted because they were closer to the steam. The staging was very difficult. The actors were about 30 feet off the ground and we had to be careful that they didn’t fall.

One of the biggest surprises in the book is that, in 1980, you had to convince interviewers you were not just following George’s direction. Obviously no one thinks that today. What was the biggest argument you and George had over a particular scene?

There was really only one disagreement. It was the Carbon Freeze scene when Princess Leia says, “I love you.” Han Solo’s response in the script was, “I love you, too.” I shot the line and it just didn’t seem right for the character of Han Solo. So we worked on the scene on the set. We kept trying different things and couldn’t get the right line. We were into the lunch break and I said to Harrison try it again and just do whatever comes to mind. That is when Harrison said the line, “I know.” After the take, I said to my assistant director, David Tomblin, “It’s a wrap.” David looked at me in disbelief and said something like, “Hold on, we just went to overtime. You’re not happy with that, are you?” And I said, yes, it’s the perfect Han Solo remark, and so we went to lunch. George saw the first cut and said, “Wait a minute, wait a minute. That’s not the line in the script.” I said ““I love you, too’ was not Han Solo.” Han Solo was a rebel. George felt that the audience would laugh. And I said, that’s wonderful, he is probably going to his death for all they know. We sat in the room and he thought about it. He then asked me, “Did you shoot the line in the script?” I said yes. So we agreed that we would do two preview screenings once the film was cut and set to music with the line in and then with the line out. At the first preview in San Francisco, the house broke up after Han Solo said I know. When the film was over, people came up and said that is the most wonderful line and it worked. So George decided not to have the second screening.

George was the best producer I ever worked with. He left me alone and only came to England a few times. I told George at one point that I was behind schedule, not that it was anyone’s fault, but because it was so complex. Many of the special effects that were done on set often did not work at all. His answer was, “Keep doing what you are doing. Just keep shooting.” This was the greatest thing for a director to hear from a producer.

Is it satisfying that Empire has been changed the least of the original trilogy with the 1997 Special Editions and DVD release?

When the film was released in 1997 and later put into DVD, I was very gratified that it was almost unchanged, except the sound was much improved, whereas Star Wars and Jedi had big changes.

In the last ten years, what film or films have stood out to you where you thought, you know, that was really done the right way?

In the last ten years of watching films I have found that some of the foreign films I saw affected me most. One American film that stands out for me for its workmanship and artistry is Ratatouille. It was an astonishing effort in filmmaking.

What did you see in Ratatouille that you do not see in a lot of other American films? Or even in other Pixar films?

Ratatouille has a fine mixture of a credible love story, a sense of family and the black sheep, and a mature satire. Its animation is extraordinary in its color, cinematic compositions, and well-rounded figures. Film is a window to the real world but a lie that makes you believe the unbelievable. Ratatouille is a story that keeps its tension intact throughout its telling. The film has inner rhythm, as a film should. It has a story full of suspense, humor, and believable characters. It works on many levels for adults as well as children.

What foreign films have affected you and why?

American film tends to be sentimental and rarely depicts the soul of its citizens. And if the film doesn’t have guns, it isn’t an action film. But for me, the real turnoff is in the final scenes. The experience is often wrapped up in a pretty consumer package guaranteed to show us that life is good and people finally see the light. Foreign films tend not to have this denouement. The chips fall and lay dead and buried if need be. Think of Kurosawa’s Seven Samurai, David Lean’s Lawrence of Arabia, Ingmar Berman’s great films Fanny and Alexander and Cries and Whispers, or Fellini’s 8 1/2. The stories are not skewed for the happy ending. The studio system is geared to make money, not to tell stories. American films generally cost too much to make and cost millions more to advertise so that the product can open as many pockets as possible.

READ MORE:

• Boba Fett On The Empire Strikes Back, That Crazy Suit, and the Star Wars Legacy

• Lucasfilm’s J.W. Rinzler Talks About The Making of Star Wars: The Empire Strikes Back

• Rarely Seen Photographs from The Empire Strikes Back

Mike Ryan is a frequent contributor to vanityfair.com. You can contact him directly on Twitter.