I don't mean to be unkind, but I was listening to this wondering why I was enjoying it more than usual before I realised it was the absence of Barry.
I don't mind the guy now and then, but I really don't understand the rationale for making him Max's permanent sidekick.
Anyway, I agree with basically everything Wilson says about England here. One other small point- people who go on about the quality of squads Southgate has had to work with should remember that Jesse Lingard, Ashley Young and often Eric Dier were starters in 2018.
Six years of being lucky up to a point...England are not Georgia or the like, or so we are told; they are not in tournaments (just) to make the knock-out stages, they're there to win them and they don't. I think we can debate whether such expectations/aspirations are unfair or unrealistic, but those are the expectations and England don't win tournaments. The relative success of England under Southgate can be true even as the absolute success of actually winning these things remains elusive. Beyond any of that, for those of us that watch football to be entertained by what we are seeing, the football world would likely be a better place if we saw the backs of the likes of Southgate and Deschamps.
Really? Holland finished third in their group. France finished second.
We may not have played the most stimulating football but getting to the last four, unbeaten, makes the suggestion we are the "worst teams since worst teams were invented" absolute nonsense.
well kind of making the point that everyone else is now sat at home watching but for the final 4. Then realised one of those have lost.
And the worst team since worst teams were invented are still there. England
Can anyone justify the referee appointment for the England game?
A referee formerly banned for match fixing should be no where near a major competition. That his performance was subsequently questioned following a club game by a player likely to start for England makes it unfathomable to me.
England have been turgid. Awful. Mostly great players but not played to their strengths, for a couple it has felt potentially damaging in terms of long term confidence. Listening to the BBC commentary via Switzerland was embarrassing, they'd obviously been told to big up the lads and it bore little resemblance to the game. Yes they played better than the previous games but that's not saying much! The penalties were great. The rest? Nope.
Winning is lovely but if that were the only thing, the vast majority of players and fans would walk away from the sport. There can be only one winner, which means all the rest are losers. So you play the game, and watch it, to enjoy it - to be entertained, have a good time. And if you're going to be a loser most of the time, better to have some fun and try to please people with the style of play. As a fan of a club team that will never again win a major trophy, just give me entertaining play above everything else.
Saka and Gordon can go both ways though I'd love to see more of what you describe. The other thing is, a left-footer crossing into the box from the right (like Saka) will tend to curve the ball into the keeper whereas with someone like Beckham, it would curve away from the keeper . Curving away from the keeper makes it easier for the striker and harder for defenders / keeper. It's not rocket science.
Watch the 4-4-2 youtube videos with Adam Cleary and you get a really good analysis of what England have been doing, their failings, etc.. So, if a youtube blogger can figure it out, I have to ask why the England management haven't been able to do so. It was blatantly obvious that we needed a natural left back and that was well before the tournament started. It's not that we don't like the players, or don't want them to win, but they could be a fair bit better. For some reason, the management team are lacking. (It's not just Southgate, it has to include others he relies on for advice).
They scored more goals than their opponents at each stage. It's not that difficult. All the attractive play in the world means nothing if you lose. Once again we are shown how English fans ( and pundits and journalists) are utterly incapable of taking joy in their teams achievements. Arguably best england team in an age and Southgate is probably gone after the tourney ends regardless of the result. Crazy. It would actually serve the fans right if he left right before the next match. What is supposed to be the pinnacle of a players career inevitably seems to be sucked of all joy.
Well said - completely agree. England deserve to be there. They've hung in, shown real strength and resilience. Yeah, not pretty to watch maybe - and they can play better. And perhaps they will on Wednesday, and if fortune is with them, in the final too. But if they win ugly fair play to them. All the very best.
So that essentially means B tier England has avoided defeat in 5 games and reached the semi-finals, which might say more about the opposition England has faced than about England itself because the football England put on display was largely pretty dire.
England go into the semi-finals as underdogs (I don't care what the bookies or the jingoistic tabloids say or said now or pre-tournament), the three heavyweights NED, FRA & ESP will be a different caliber altogether.
Yes, nothing to be particularly proud of, and nothing to be ashamed of either. However, a semi-final in a major tournament is an achievement, we'll see what happens next.
I've been wondering if the Southgate era will set us up for a period of Germany-like results in tournaments. Growing up, it seemed like, whether good bad or lucky, Germany would just always be there at the upper end of tournaments. England's form and results prior to this tournament were pretty poor, and he came in without a fit LB and with a gaping hole in the midfield - those are not trivial problems! I won't pretend that performances have been good to watch, but he's objectively succeeding where many many managers have failed. I would love to see his successor maintain the solidity while making us more attractive to watch, but remembering the talented underperformers of Fabio, Sven, etc makes me appreciate what we've got now!
Yep, honestly I think international football is getting harder and harder to coach and get players to play well. Different systems are drilled into players at club level to a great extend, so - say - getting players who play the Klopp way or the Pep way to gel in such limited time is very much a case of compromise that means getting 70% effectiveness out of everybody rather than 100% out of a few players and less out of everyone else.
Like you say looking at it the sides that can do both are often those with some sort of link that sees them play with similar players more often - as well as the Spain/Barca thing IIRC most of the 1988 Dutch squad were a product of the Ajax school and the French team had come through a very well organised developmental program.
Pleased as an England fan, but for the rest of the world and the healthy of the sport, they do not deserve anything more. Plus, you need a reason to axe Southgate. Winning will not give you that reason.
"I will be cheering on England on Wednesday but if we take a corner that 3 passes later ends up at Pickford's feet, I will be shouting at the TV - like a lot of other England fans."
- YES!!!!!
I'd like to see a new rule whereby, if the ball crosses the halfway line, it's not allowed to go BACK across the halfway line until you've had a shot at goal.
There is no harm in lambasting England for playing dreadful football but being equally content that they are still somehow in this thing with a chance to win it.
You cannot possibly watch this England team in this tournament and go, yep, the football is good. Its been turgid, horrible, boring, negative and Southgate has been slow to react, ponderous in decision making and a huge meme creator.
There is this belief that because we have got this far, we should somehow reach the conclusion we are happy with what we are watching and can't criticise the performance. That is nonsense. Asking football fans not to comment on what they are actually seeing is laughable.
And if you look at the way England have played objectively, i.e. who is passing to who, where people are standing, how we go about not getting the ball in the goal... the football is, for the most part, crap.
Its not a crime to think England has played rubbish football and still be really happy we could win this thing.
I am very pleased with the outcome so far. I am very far from pleased about sitting down to watch 120 minutes of rubbish football and the processes that led to the outcomes.
I will be cheering on England on Wednesday but if we take a corner that 3 passes later ends up at Pickford's feet, I will be shouting at the TV - like a lot of other England fans.
Sure we've not played champagne football (few have), but to say that fans shouldn't be proud of reaching another major tournament semi-final is a ridiculous take.
You'd think an American would have a better understanding of how difficult international football is, given their record.
Oh no don’t disagree. I was just thinking with the game as it is now it is so hard to blend players together. The team I was also thinking of was Spain which was essentially Barcelona in style and nearly on personel. Those that did come in fitted into the Barcelona style.
Other wise teams now are, club wise, very specialised in how they play and drilled endlessly. So you take some of those players from each club and try to fit them together. England have got better at that with Southgate driving it from under 16s up but you are still bringing together someone from different countries let alone clubs. It is not just an English issue which I think is the “problem” with international football.
If it ran like rugby or cricket international would be very very different
1: I don't see Spain beating France, France's defense is legendary
2: England has showed winning mentality, despite not playing very well and falling behind they still clawed back to win, culminating in their strongest penalty takes ever, if anything they demonstrated they deserve to be where theya re through grit and reslience, not flashy play that people think is what wins tournaments
I would say Brazil 2002 (possibly the only time in the aforementioned personal tourney watching history they've come close to that Nike advert cliche - Ronaldo, Ronaldinho and Rivaldo at their peaks backed by a quality midfield and defence), France 98/00 (ridiculous depth of quality, midfield especially, though I will admit pre-final Brazil were damn exciting too), Netherlands in 88 (possibly distorted slightly by Van Basten being ridiculously good, and my memory is that basically every other team other than Ireland underperformed massively and that Ireland made Greece '04 look attacking). And maaaaybe Spain 2008-12 as I realise tiki-taka is a bit marmite for excitement - I'd say they had a system of not losing games but also had some bloody good players.
As an american, I think there is nothing English fans should be proud of. A 1-0 win against a C tier team (Serbia), a tie with B tier team (Denmark), an almost humiliating defeat against another C tier team (Slovenia), and then a tie with B tier team (Swiss).
I honestly hope Neth wins because they have been great and because England have not. And because at least Neth will put a decent fight against the Spain who inevitable will win of the tournament.
Gusrdiola definitely wouldn’t. He paid the second highest fee ever paid for a defender, for his current left back. Having paid a record price for the previous left back.
Ohhh I see an issue here
Other managers have used a right footed full back in the left back position if they do not have a natural left footer (Phil Neville etc.) The advent of football by spreadsheet has also seemingly reduced the winger / full back attacking the byline to cross and replaced with a cut back run or pass across the edge of the box.
Thanks for the very funny and fair podcast. I think all four of you put it very well and pointed out the case for and against Southgate. It seems that in the modern world you can't have a balanced and fair argument, but rather have to refer to shouting and name calling.
However, I think that this podcast pointed out (rightly) that Southgate has objectively done a fantastic job and is one of two great managers that England have had, whilst, on the other hand, the football is boring, lacklustre and does not seem to have much of a "plan." These two points are not mutually exclusive.
I predicted England would win the Euros at the beginning. I don't see any need to change my prediction, to be honest. I would hazard a guess that France will beat Spain. England vs Holland is 50-50, imho. So... all to play for.
Hypothetical question I know, but I have been continually trying to work out what starting XI managers like Guardiola, Ancelotti and Klopp would have picked from the group of players Southgate has at his disposal and what formation they would use.
I doubt that any of them would have picked Trippier at left back.
England are somehow one game away from the Euro 2024 final – Football Daily
Comments
Nice time? What's nice about it? This is supposed to be entertaining and there's been very little to entertain.
It would be fitting for England to get to that pointless game, whilst playing the most pointless football, yes Kane I'm looking at you.
Gelsenkurtain
There's no playoff in the Euros is there? Bloody hope not. What a pointless game that is.
This is UEFA we're speaking of. Match fixing is regarded as just another income stream.
I don't mean to be unkind, but I was listening to this wondering why I was enjoying it more than usual before I realised it was the absence of Barry.
I don't mind the guy now and then, but I really don't understand the rationale for making him Max's permanent sidekick.
Anyway, I agree with basically everything Wilson says about England here. One other small point- people who go on about the quality of squads Southgate has had to work with should remember that Jesse Lingard, Ashley Young and often Eric Dier were starters in 2018.
Six years of being lucky up to a point...England are not Georgia or the like, or so we are told; they are not in tournaments (just) to make the knock-out stages, they're there to win them and they don't. I think we can debate whether such expectations/aspirations are unfair or unrealistic, but those are the expectations and England don't win tournaments. The relative success of England under Southgate can be true even as the absolute success of actually winning these things remains elusive. Beyond any of that, for those of us that watch football to be entertained by what we are seeing, the football world would likely be a better place if we saw the backs of the likes of Southgate and Deschamps.
Really? Holland finished third in their group. France finished second.
We may not have played the most stimulating football but getting to the last four, unbeaten, makes the suggestion we are the "worst teams since worst teams were invented" absolute nonsense.
well kind of making the point that everyone else is now sat at home watching but for the final 4. Then realised one of those have lost.
And the worst team since worst teams were invented are still there. England
Your grammar is not American. If it is, the USA is in trouble.
Can anyone justify the referee appointment for the England game?
A referee formerly banned for match fixing should be no where near a major competition. That his performance was subsequently questioned following a club game by a player likely to start for England makes it unfathomable to me.
"unlike all but two". Is that another way of saying like one other side?
It’s fairly simple. They played 5 games, and unlike all but two other teams, they have not lost one
God knows how they’re one game away from the final because they certainly don’t deserve to be. It’s purely down to luck that they’ve made it this far.
3 for a direct free-kick, 4 for a bicycle-kick, and 5 if the goalkeeper scores.
Pocket calculators will have a comeback.
In all seriousness, football administrators can't get complacent. The tournament is yet another in the line of drudgery.
Something needs to spice it up.
I say two for a goal outside the 18 yard box.
Strange that you think prefacing your opinion "as an American" lends it any credibility, interest, or relevance
England have been turgid. Awful. Mostly great players but not played to their strengths, for a couple it has felt potentially damaging in terms of long term confidence. Listening to the BBC commentary via Switzerland was embarrassing, they'd obviously been told to big up the lads and it bore little resemblance to the game. Yes they played better than the previous games but that's not saying much! The penalties were great. The rest? Nope.
Winning is lovely but if that were the only thing, the vast majority of players and fans would walk away from the sport. There can be only one winner, which means all the rest are losers. So you play the game, and watch it, to enjoy it - to be entertained, have a good time. And if you're going to be a loser most of the time, better to have some fun and try to please people with the style of play. As a fan of a club team that will never again win a major trophy, just give me entertaining play above everything else.
Saka and Gordon can go both ways though I'd love to see more of what you describe. The other thing is, a left-footer crossing into the box from the right (like Saka) will tend to curve the ball into the keeper whereas with someone like Beckham, it would curve away from the keeper . Curving away from the keeper makes it easier for the striker and harder for defenders / keeper. It's not rocket science.
Do you think maybe it is not that simple?
Watch the 4-4-2 youtube videos with Adam Cleary and you get a really good analysis of what England have been doing, their failings, etc.. So, if a youtube blogger can figure it out, I have to ask why the England management haven't been able to do so. It was blatantly obvious that we needed a natural left back and that was well before the tournament started. It's not that we don't like the players, or don't want them to win, but they could be a fair bit better. For some reason, the management team are lacking. (It's not just Southgate, it has to include others he relies on for advice).
They scored more goals than their opponents at each stage. It's not that difficult. All the attractive play in the world means nothing if you lose. Once again we are shown how English fans ( and pundits and journalists) are utterly incapable of taking joy in their teams achievements. Arguably best england team in an age and Southgate is probably gone after the tourney ends regardless of the result. Crazy. It would actually serve the fans right if he left right before the next match. What is supposed to be the pinnacle of a players career inevitably seems to be sucked of all joy.
It's hard to see how any manager in the world would solve the left back issue without the luxury of splashing big money on buying one.
Well said - completely agree. England deserve to be there. They've hung in, shown real strength and resilience. Yeah, not pretty to watch maybe - and they can play better. And perhaps they will on Wednesday, and if fortune is with them, in the final too. But if they win ugly fair play to them. All the very best.
Who calls Holland the Neth? The Neth havent been very good either. Almost beaten by a 'B tier team'. Unimaginatively managed by a C tier manager'.
So that essentially means B tier England has avoided defeat in 5 games and reached the semi-finals, which might say more about the opposition England has faced than about England itself because the football England put on display was largely pretty dire.
England go into the semi-finals as underdogs (I don't care what the bookies or the jingoistic tabloids say or said now or pre-tournament), the three heavyweights NED, FRA & ESP will be a different caliber altogether.
Yes, nothing to be particularly proud of, and nothing to be ashamed of either. However, a semi-final in a major tournament is an achievement, we'll see what happens next.
I've been wondering if the Southgate era will set us up for a period of Germany-like results in tournaments. Growing up, it seemed like, whether good bad or lucky, Germany would just always be there at the upper end of tournaments. England's form and results prior to this tournament were pretty poor, and he came in without a fit LB and with a gaping hole in the midfield - those are not trivial problems! I won't pretend that performances have been good to watch, but he's objectively succeeding where many many managers have failed. I would love to see his successor maintain the solidity while making us more attractive to watch, but remembering the talented underperformers of Fabio, Sven, etc makes me appreciate what we've got now!
Other managers have used a right footed full back in the left back position
there's right footed LBs and then there's Trippier. He can use his left peg for standing on and that's pretty much it as the proverb goes.
I was a right footer who played LB because that was the only position I could make my own, and I worked hard to get a decent left foot.
At Spurs, we saw Trippier put some lovely cushioned volley crosses in, several led to goals too. But as a LB, it's painful to watch.
Yep, honestly I think international football is getting harder and harder to coach and get players to play well. Different systems are drilled into players at club level to a great extend, so - say - getting players who play the Klopp way or the Pep way to gel in such limited time is very much a case of compromise that means getting 70% effectiveness out of everybody rather than 100% out of a few players and less out of everyone else.
Like you say looking at it the sides that can do both are often those with some sort of link that sees them play with similar players more often - as well as the Spain/Barca thing IIRC most of the 1988 Dutch squad were a product of the Ajax school and the French team had come through a very well organised developmental program.
Pleased as an England fan, but for the rest of the world and the healthy of the sport, they do not deserve anything more. Plus, you need a reason to axe Southgate. Winning will not give you that reason.
"I will be cheering on England on Wednesday but if we take a corner that 3 passes later ends up at Pickford's feet, I will be shouting at the TV - like a lot of other England fans."
- YES!!!!!
I'd like to see a new rule whereby, if the ball crosses the halfway line, it's not allowed to go BACK across the halfway line until you've had a shot at goal.
There is no harm in lambasting England for playing dreadful football but being equally content that they are still somehow in this thing with a chance to win it.
You cannot possibly watch this England team in this tournament and go, yep, the football is good. Its been turgid, horrible, boring, negative and Southgate has been slow to react, ponderous in decision making and a huge meme creator.
There is this belief that because we have got this far, we should somehow reach the conclusion we are happy with what we are watching and can't criticise the performance. That is nonsense. Asking football fans not to comment on what they are actually seeing is laughable.
And if you look at the way England have played objectively, i.e. who is passing to who, where people are standing, how we go about not getting the ball in the goal... the football is, for the most part, crap.
Its not a crime to think England has played rubbish football and still be really happy we could win this thing.
I am very pleased with the outcome so far. I am very far from pleased about sitting down to watch 120 minutes of rubbish football and the processes that led to the outcomes.
I will be cheering on England on Wednesday but if we take a corner that 3 passes later ends up at Pickford's feet, I will be shouting at the TV - like a lot of other England fans.
Sure we've not played champagne football (few have), but to say that fans shouldn't be proud of reaching another major tournament semi-final is a ridiculous take.
You'd think an American would have a better understanding of how difficult international football is, given their record.
Cheers pal. Typical American arrogance dismissing other nations
Oh no don’t disagree. I was just thinking with the game as it is now it is so hard to blend players together. The team I was also thinking of was Spain which was essentially Barcelona in style and nearly on personel. Those that did come in fitted into the Barcelona style.
Other wise teams now are, club wise, very specialised in how they play and drilled endlessly. So you take some of those players from each club and try to fit them together. England have got better at that with Southgate driving it from under 16s up but you are still bringing together someone from different countries let alone clubs. It is not just an English issue which I think is the “problem” with international football.
If it ran like rugby or cricket international would be very very different
1: I don't see Spain beating France, France's defense is legendary
2: England has showed winning mentality, despite not playing very well and falling behind they still clawed back to win, culminating in their strongest penalty takes ever, if anything they demonstrated they deserve to be where theya re through grit and reslience, not flashy play that people think is what wins tournaments
I would say Brazil 2002 (possibly the only time in the aforementioned personal tourney watching history they've come close to that Nike advert cliche - Ronaldo, Ronaldinho and Rivaldo at their peaks backed by a quality midfield and defence), France 98/00 (ridiculous depth of quality, midfield especially, though I will admit pre-final Brazil were damn exciting too), Netherlands in 88 (possibly distorted slightly by Van Basten being ridiculously good, and my memory is that basically every other team other than Ireland underperformed massively and that Ireland made Greece '04 look attacking). And maaaaybe Spain 2008-12 as I realise tiki-taka is a bit marmite for excitement - I'd say they had a system of not losing games but also had some bloody good players.
Obviously all massively subjective! =)
As an american, I think there is nothing English fans should be proud of. A 1-0 win against a C tier team (Serbia), a tie with B tier team (Denmark), an almost humiliating defeat against another C tier team (Slovenia), and then a tie with B tier team (Swiss).
I honestly hope Neth wins because they have been great and because England have not. And because at least Neth will put a decent fight against the Spain who inevitable will win of the tournament.
Could they afford to do that? Playing as they have, they won the group and got “lucky” with playing easier games that come from topping the group.
Gusrdiola definitely wouldn’t. He paid the second highest fee ever paid for a defender, for his current left back. Having paid a record price for the previous left back.
Ohhh I see an issue here
Indeed
Which teams out of interest?
The biggest outrage has been the bbc daring to say England played well. The pod are still rattle by this awful take
Other managers have used a right footed full back in the left back position if they do not have a natural left footer (Phil Neville etc.) The advent of football by spreadsheet has also seemingly reduced the winger / full back attacking the byline to cross and replaced with a cut back run or pass across the edge of the box.
England are somehow one game away from the final...... or, one game away from the play off....depending how you look at it.
How can they do better than be in the semi final?
"England have been crap"......but they are in the semi final.
Thanks for the very funny and fair podcast. I think all four of you put it very well and pointed out the case for and against Southgate. It seems that in the modern world you can't have a balanced and fair argument, but rather have to refer to shouting and name calling.
However, I think that this podcast pointed out (rightly) that Southgate has objectively done a fantastic job and is one of two great managers that England have had, whilst, on the other hand, the football is boring, lacklustre and does not seem to have much of a "plan." These two points are not mutually exclusive.
I predicted England would win the Euros at the beginning. I don't see any need to change my prediction, to be honest. I would hazard a guess that France will beat Spain. England vs Holland is 50-50, imho. So... all to play for.
Hypothetical question I know, but I have been continually trying to work out what starting XI managers like Guardiola, Ancelotti and Klopp would have picked from the group of players Southgate has at his disposal and what formation they would use.
I doubt that any of them would have picked Trippier at left back.
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