There’s such a thing as knowing too much you've been married to the president of the United States who

knows everything about everything in the world sometimes you just a phenomenally successful author
please welcome a former first lady of these United States Michelle Obama I want people looking at me and
Barack like # couples goals no no there are some broken things that happen even in the best of marriages
-What is the thing that keeps you up at night now?
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the number one Health and Wellness podcast J shett J shett the one the only Jett

- Michelle, thank you so much for joining me on purpose this is such an honor I'm so grateful to
have you here

-I'm thrilled to be here I'm a fan

-oh that is that means more to me than you know thank you so much and I'll dive straight in what is
the best part about being you?
- I have never thought about that, that is a great question, I think my family, my friendships I think
one of the things that Barack and I we always talk about is that we're proud of the fact that we've
kept our community, you know people that we've known all our lives are still a part of that
community that keeps us solid and keeps us whole and grounded it's easy to lose your head on this
journey that we've been on and I think what keeps us focused is that we've had we have some solid
people in our lives and we make it a point to cultivate those relationships and to learn to be in
intentional about them and I think that that's probably one of the coolest things is that you know I've
got this big kitchen table of people who keep me focused and and keep me honest
-yeah what's the longest friendship there non-family like what's the would you say?
- the longest friendship I mean gosh childhood friendships, I still have um I've sort of picked up
friends throughout every part of my life you know I've got one or two, I've got the high school
friends that I keep in touch with the college friends, the law school friends, you know so you sort of
gather people throughout, um and I've I've had a lot of people who've sort of just hung in there
before we were the Obamas
- yeah how how does that work I feel like so many people who are on their Journey a lot of us don't
take steps forward because we're scared of what our friends will think some of us get carried away
with success and ego and pride goes to your head and then you alienate people sometimes it's envy
and jealousy from everyone else who didn't join you on the journey, how do you navigate a multi-
decade level friendship when everyone is going through so much? what are the kind of key
Milestones of maintaining that kitchen table?

you know I I talk about this journey like climbing Mount Everest you start not that I've ever done
that by the way but what I've heard about climbing Mount Everest is that you you start out at base
camp and then you hit these Summits along the way and everybody starts out the journey ready, you
know they think I'm going to make it to the top and then you start the climb and some people are
ready for it and some people aren't and it's surprising that you learn along the climb who's really
ready and there are people who just emotionally physically can't go the whole way run out of
oxygen, you know they weren't fit for the climb right and one of the hardest things is like when you
discover, thatI mean do you do you stop do you go back because there was one member that wasn't
ready or do you keep climbing and sort of leave them where they are and we found that that's kind
of been the the pattern right “wow” there are people who have been they they were built for the
climb like we were and some weren't and I I find that I I talk to young people about this too because
when you're a kid coming from nothing um and I won't say that I came from nothing but Barack nor
I came from wealth or connection or fame or Fortune um so we have a hodgepodge of people in our
lives and one of the toughest things is to find out that a dear friend wasn't ready for the climb and in
order to keep pressing forward we tell young people that sometimes you got to leave them there
because you can't carry people when you're trying to get to the top um it slows you down um but
there's you know survivors remorse that comes with it and I know there you know a lot of times
when I talk to kids and I see them well up I see in them that struggle that they've reached a point
where they've left people they love behind and they struggle to figure out how to whether or how to
maintain those connections and it becomes hard and it's draining you know, kidss for example who
got the opportunity to go to college when half their family isn't eating, yes right and they've got a
student loan and they need to use that loan to pay for their books, but they're trying to send money
back home to pay the electric bill and I tell those kids like if you want to make it you've got to make
some hard choices about what to do with your life? or you will not make the climb yourself?
- and then everyone loses
-and then everybody loses and I I think that's how we've had to look at it, we've been fortunate
enough that we've had so many people who were ready for the climb they had to adjust they had to
go back and do a little working out but for the most part they've made it but for the people who
couldn't we had to leave them behind and keep climbing and if once we made it to the top if we
could reach back and pull some others up, we definitely did that it is one of the greatest challenges
uh when you are pursuing a life that is drasticically different from the one that you've come from
- is there such a thing as a graceful end
- well it depends on who's doing the ending right “yes” sometimes you know sometimes I say
there's such a thing as the slow ghost you know where you just sort of let relationships take their
natural course, friendships and relationships kind of tell you when they're ready,
- yeah that's so true

-and you have to kind of listen to it, you you learn as you get older you know sometimes you held
on too long you let some you know bad uh Juju stay around too too long and as you get older you,
you can recognize right, I've always approached life and friendships and I try to tell my daughters
this too is stay open, stay open to the possibility of people I never want my daughters and I never
wanted to feel so high that I was closed off and suspicious, you know not wanting to let new people
in right and that becomes very difficult when you're the president in the first lady, you know you
could you know close your life off so much right? because everyone might want something from
you but I always felt like well that's a loss, you know because if you close everybody out then you
miss some gems we've tried to be open and find ways to let new people in our lives and develop
new relationship and what I tell my kids is trust your gut because you'll know, when people should
be let out but keep keep your aperture wide open let people in but when they show you who they are
let them out quickly and as older you get you you know it's like yeah that wasn't that this one isn't
working out so let's just cut it quick but stay open

- and you're naturally going to make mistakes, you're naturally going to get hurt, you're naturally not
going to read everyone perfectly
-so true
- that's going to happen but it's better to be aware note down the lesson but be open in the first place
because being closed is worse
-you miss you miss out on the goodness, the possibility, the opportunity, the the new, right and I
never want to miss out on the new, I'd rather keep give people the benefit of of the doubt, bring
them in and and let them disappoint me it's like I I can deal with disappointment I can be I can I can
get over hurt but I don't want to lose the possibility of someone special coming in
- wow
- that's the greater tradeoff
- that's so powerful
-and it's proven to be the right approach you know we we've just met some wonderful people along
this journey and gosh if I had closed myself off to that I uff I think of the friendships, the influences
that I wouldn't have had so I want my girls to stay open you know, I want them to be open People
-yes I had a mentor in London probably around 10 years ago and he devised this set of questions
that gives you your personality type and there's so many tests like this but his was really interesting
and it's very aligned with your thinking so and he also had types where we'd get locked and he'd call
this CS he said The more closed, the more specific and the more controlling you get the less you're
able to actually connect grow, evolve, learn and he would always say as you're saying the more
open random and supportive you are, the more likely you are to be able to invite people into your
life at different times and I I love hearing that because

-I like that
-yeah it was yeah that change from close OH Close selective and controlling to open random and
supportive he was saying you never know you could have a random interaction with someone who
could could be the most beautiful lesson of your life

-and and I also felt that you know when you're the president of the United States and the first lady
you have to be open, you have to be open to all the possibilities you can't live in your Fortress and
govern the people right and I think we benefited from the fact that we had to figure out how to be
regular people in the white house because we had kids in school and so we couldn't become just
White House people had to get to know that community and go to parent teacher conference and
make friends with other parents because we wanted our kids' lives to be normal but that in a way
kept me connected with people and what they were really feeling and what their challenges were
and it keeps me open and empathetic to people because I'm engaged and I'm not sitting in my castle
looking out at everybody else
- um absolutely so I found it particularly necessary
- absolutely yeah so that's the best thing that's beautiful what has been the worst or the hardest part about being
you well I think it's the flip side of that coin of that when you're on the top of Mount Everest it can be isolating and
uh dystopic in a way you know I think one of the greatest things that we've learned to appreciate in this role and I I
tell young people this especially young people who think they want fame you know it's like do you know what that is
you know are you grasping for something that you have no idea or your parents pushing you towards this thing is
that when you become famous wellknown you lose your anonymity that's a tough thing to lose a price right cost it's
a huge Price Right the natural everyday thing of of sitting and being able to sit in the world and observe it and not be
observed right wow that's a really interesting way of putting it yeah just sort of sitting in a park and watching the
world happen with nobody pulling you out of it right the simple walk through a park or standing in line at the grocery
store and overhearing life we don't have that you know we don't have spontaneity in the same way and that's a hard
thing to lose now here's the thing fortunately we lost it we lost it in our 40s I just think of kids who are reaching for it
not knowing that you you're about to lose a really valuable thing you want to you're striving to lose it and you're only
18 20 you don't want to lose your an anonymity you don't want to trade that off for anything in the world because
once you lose it you lose a lot more we've adjusted right because we're adults so yes I can figure out how to make
one move go on a walk visit a friend but I have to call like 12 people and I have to think about the movements and
security has to be lined up we can't do the ordinary things of life you know go to a movie theater or I joked at covid
when people asked when we were all in quarantine how did it feel and I was like well it was kind of easy for us
because we've lived been quarantined for like you know a decade and so you learn to live in this smaller footprint
but it's that's a tough thing that I don't think people think about when they think of power and fame and there
there's some downsides to it yeah and what do what do people want the most from you and because I love the idea
of what you were saying of being open it's that mindset is so special I guess when that when you are open and then
like you said you can get over that hurt what is the hurt that you usually have to get over or most commonly that
you've had to well the maybe hurt is too strong of a word um again because we're older it's just the loss of a piece of
yourself right you know I mean people always ask me I was in Chicago the other day and every time I go back to
Chicago people were like do you miss Chicago I miss the Chicago that we knew before we were here wow it's
powerful yeah that Chicago is no longer available to us to you yes yeah you know the way we loved it in that way and
that's that's a loss is it a hurt is it personal no it's just the way life is but it's still a loss you know my husband loves
New York and it was interesting he thought for a second because he's been more isolated than me MH he thought
for a minute when we leave the White House we'll live in New York and I was like dude you can't live in New York
and it's just he cannot access the wonderful city of New York in the way that he remembered when he was in his 20s
because guess what we can't do we can't walk down the street we can't get on the subway we can't necessarily walk
through Central Park without a big plan you know the things that make New York New York we can't access it that's
the part I don't you know the people part the connection to people Part I get exhausted by that because I'm open
right so it's not the right it's just the way you want to live your life especially when you're open right you want to be
open you want to be in the midst of people and we've lost that absolutely I think what's beautiful about this book
The Light we carry and becoming is it shows us just how many trials challenges setbacks that you've had to over that
you've gone through in your life so elegantly gracefully tactfully you know with with so much determination and
drive and I'm intrigued that after having overcome so much like you said climbing Mount Everest using that as our as
our analogy what is the thing that keeps you up at night now or what is is your biggest fear now after having
overcome so many it has less to do with me personally and more to do with the world that we're in there's such a
thing as knowing too much MH and when you've been married to the president of the United States who knows
everything about everything in the world sometimes you just want to turn off you know too much right it's like I
don't know I don't want to know what was in that folder that you just got that made you quiet you know I don't want
to know why the security just pulled you over I mean it could be any range of things that comes across the desk of
the leader of the Free World right so I know a lot about what's going on and what keeps me up are the things that I
know um the war in the region in too many regions what is AI going to do for us the environment you know are we
moving at all fast enough what are we doing about education are people going to vote and why aren't people voting
are we too stuck to our phones I mean those are the things that keep me up because you you don't have control
over them and you wonder where are people where are we in this you know where are our hearts what's going to
happen in this next election I am terrified about what could possibly happen because our leaders matter who we
select who speaks for us who holds that bulli Pulpit it affects us in ways that sometimes I think people take for
granted you know the fact that people think that government n you know is is it does it really even do anything and
I'm like oh my God does government do everything for us and we cannot take this democracy for granted and
sometimes I I worry that we do those are the things that keep me up what what habits have you developed because
I think people may not have access to the news you do but I think people can definitely relate yes yes to what you're
saying of like absolutely J I'm just seeing all the news on my phone I'm connected to the TV I'm hearing things from
friends and family like I think a lot of people can relate to you saying I feel like I know too much what are some of the
habits and practices or rules that you've developed that have really become your Saving Grace because like you said
to you it's not just a news update it's a folder it's the person calling it's a private meeting whatever it may be you're
in one sense it's even more extreme because you're so privy to the actual reality as opposed to a news channel
which is part of reality so yeah one of the most important practices is is deliberately turning that off for a moment or
more than a moment and I encourage that I think our phones are sort of the regular man's equivalent to what I just
described we're too connected all the time we're reading too much we're taking too much in we are constantly being
fed by images and that's become the norm and it's we we've been sort of marketed that that's cool that's what we
should want but our brains are not we are we are not that sophisticated a species yeah we have not evolved enough
to be able to take in that much information on a constant basis and our kids certainly are not prepared to handle it I
think that plays a huge role in the higher rates of depression and suicide among young people they've got to let their
brains rest from the noise even though you know we're all trying to fix everything everyone needs a break from it
right so I very deliberate about knowing that I can't take all that in and and and we're getting it in such a sort of
misinterpreted way right we've got you know confirmation bias we're reading only what we already believe and I
know I have to be very deliberate about you know understanding that a lot of the information I'm getting isn't even
complete I do filter you know and then I I develop habits that shut my brain off to thinking right I I wrote In The Light
about knitting you know which is a a habit that I I developed a hobby that I developed over quarantine and that's
because it makes you so present and so it engag it it shuts your brain down and allows your your hands the motion
to take over and in that that way I found that it is meditative right um and that's what meditation is it's quieting your
noisy mind and some of us can't connect to meditation but I think we need it I I think biologically we need to shut
that part of ourselves down to get a rest from it and I find that knitting does it exercise does it um learning
something physical shuts my mind down I mean I've taken up tennis and there's nothing that shuts my mind down
then running after a green ball and trying to figure out move your feet hit the ball follow through it's like yeah um
that shuts my mind down for the hour or 90 minutes that I'm doing that thing I'm not worrying you know I'm
breathing I'm outside I'm letting the sun hit my face I am those habits and routines of creating something right and
we're do we do that less and less now it's like everything is all in the mind it's all technology but I think we need
something where the thing I I love about knitting is that at the end of it I've made something you know it's just it's
it's just satisfying in a very different way from problem solving or analysis yes right building creating painting drawing
fixing putting something real into the world that came from your own hands yes something small you know that's
why I talk about the power of small in the light we carry because a lot of times our brains are trying to do the Big Fix
and that's when we feel hopeless and we're tired because most of us don't have the power to fix anything at a big
scale but we can focus on the small things that we have control over you know making a sweater for your daughter
helping m for a child in your neighborhood loving the children you bring into the world and making sure they have
everything they need that's where change happens right and when I do those kinds of activities I meditate into that
power right that small power that there is satisfaction from hitting a stupid ball over a net yes you know and getting
a good swing out of it it's like it makes the day better because I serve the ball right or I finished a scarf I love no
you're so right and I'm so glad you're using the word shutting down and this switch to analog I remember at one
point and I think everyone can relate to this you wake up to your phone I'd be brushing my teeth I'm on my phone
I'm eating breakfast I'm on my phone you know just your phone is now Tethered to your hand in every activity that
you're doing throughout the day and so your brain is never shutting down and the interesting thing is we all know
our phones need a reset they need a update they need a software refresh or whatever it may be and I think I saw
somewhere that the human brain today has to process like 74 gabt worth of information a day yeah a day and I was
thinking I remember when your phone doesn't you know it's a lot and when you think about it this is a brand new
technology right you know when we got into the White House we could we had blackberries right yeah uh social
media wasn't a thing right all of that came into being in the eight years that we were in the white house and it's just
gone off like a rocket ship we don't evolve that quickly you know humans it takes generations for us to evolve we
haven't adapted to this New Media we haven't we have not biologically adapted mhm and so no wonder we're
stressed yes no wonder we're we're full of anxiety um no wonder our kids are struggling you know because we we
have a new technology and we've just we we've taken it in Hook Line and Sinker we're not even questioning how
much you know the more the marrier right I think we need to be very mindful about this new Gadget yes and we
have to be mindful for our kids because they have no filter right they'll just be thumbing through this stuff you know
their their minds never sleeping and as parents of my generation we know so little about it we don't we don't even
know how to monitor it m it's like cigarettes right is it good for us I mean at one point everybody smoked until we
realized oops this isn't really really good for us right I think we we have to be cautious about this this new thing that
we're just lapping up yeah really a a few years ago exactly it was saying that today we absorb in one day in 24 hours
the same amount of tragedy we would in our entire lifetime 25 years ago today we absorb what we would in our
entire lifetime in one day and it felt real and that's why people feel more panicked I mean Barack my husband is a
he's a fact-based guy he's a Science Guy sometimes it's not popular these days right having a president that believes
in facts and Science and all that stuff but he's one of those people and he always says you know statistically speaking
especially when young people bemoan where we are today he says you know if you look at history and statistics if
you were to pick any time in human history to be born M you'd want to be born now crime War those rates are at
the lowest but nobody feels that people feel more unsafe mhm why because they're they're getting fed images of
every crime that happens anywhere everywhere right and when we were growing up you just heard your local news
you know it's just like oh there was a fire or that kid you know and you know now we're getting everything not just
from our community but all over the world stuff that's always been happening we just didn't know about it yes we
now we know too much yes and we're interpreting that to mean things are horrible we went through world wars
and depressions and famine this isn't new it's just we know everything you know it's one way to look at it yes yes
absolutely and and I think you're right because there's the incomplete information I like the word incomplete that
you said I appreciate that kind of subtle Point incomplete information then you have opinions then you have feelings
and emotions and so there's there's so much more information on every level you have the physical information the
emotional information the mental information of course the physical experience of it and and and it can be it can be
too much one of the uh it's so interesting you use the analogy of climbing Mount Everest because I went to see a
comedy show recently and I'm trying to remember the comedian's name so I'll have to find it afterwards and and put
him in there but he literally was describing he was saying relationships are like climbing Mount Everest and so what
he said was he goes you start at base camp and he goes you and your partner are ready you're ready to go you're
being guided and then at one point you're like oh we're cold but it's okay we'll keep each other warm we'll be fine
and then he goes you get to the first stop and you go oh yeah like have you have did you pack them the gloves did
you pack the gloves and then your partner goes oh no I forgot the gloves and you're like oh it's okay it's okay we'll
just keep our hands warm then you get a bit higher and then they were like now it's got to a point where it's really
cold and you go why did you forget those gloves like you know it's like the like come on like why do you forget those
gloves then you get the next stop and your partner says to you like you packed the sandwiches right and then you
look at the sandwiches like I don't know where the sandwiches are anyway and so you talk about this so much in
your work and your book like relationships are challenging they're difficult I think you've been together now for over
30 years 311 31 years congratulations October yeah okay amazing 31 years congratulations that's incredible and so
inspiring in so many ways my wife and I have been together for 10 years and that counts counts and and you know it
definitely like can see the the challenges unforeseen and seen that come with being together over long periods of
time my wife and I in 2016 we both changed jobs so we got married we changed jobs and moved country so we
moved from London to New York that year we both quit our jobs in London I could work here my wife couldn't at the
time because of her visa and we started new lives and we obviously moved home and we're away from our families
and that year was it brought us close thankfully but it was a very challenging difficult year because I've heard that
those are some of the hardest things you can do the only thing we didn't do was have a kid that's right uh and you
covered all the hard Bas apart from president and first lady I think that that takes it but when you're going through
all this challenges you've talked about these many many times before has there ever been a time when you've said
things or done things and afterwards thought I wish I didn't do that I wish I didn't say what in my marriage of course I
yesterday I how how do you how do you because you've been together for 31 years how do you Rectify something
like that when you know because there's a difference between being spiteful or being silly but like when you really
feel like I shouldn't have done that I shouldn't have said that how do you address something that you know that's
the practice of relationships right after 31 years yeah we still do it but you know it quicker and then you you
apologize you know you you learn how to say my bad right and that takes that takes a second right you know that's
why I talk about relationships in the light I talk about marriage because I I just think that number one most people
don't talk about it like our parents you didn't talk about your marriage you didn't talk about your feelings you didn't
talk about your parents didn't tell you about the challenges that we're facing so why why don't we share the whole
experience because what happens is that by not knowing you hit in in your relationship some natural like
understandable rough patches and you want to quit and it's like oh no no no no no that's not quit worthy that's just
that's the just the nature of things you know that's why I joked it's like oh you're mad at your partner you you're mad
for a year and you think the marriage is over nah no you're going to have Decades of I don't know if I like you you
know because over the span of a 30 year marriage yeah you Cobble together enough arguments and you got a
decade right and that's just the way it goes but you don't quit on it right you learn from it and that's what sustaining
a relationship is it's the choice to figure it out not to quit when it gets hard so yeah I said something that I didn't
mean to say right year year five we might have had hurt feelings and it would have taken Tak days to rectify it year
30 it's like ah there she goes again or there he goes again I know when how to talk to him about it and when because
we've practiced it we've made a lot of mistakes we've gotten it wrong and after 31 years we're getting better at it
and it gets better and better and better you know look if you lived with your roommate for 30 years you would hate
them at some point in time but it wouldn't be some defining thing you have friendships if they last long you're going
to have some falling out why do we put so much pressure on marriage to to not be hard it's the natural hardest thing
you will ever do which is to try to build a life with another person who wasn't raised in your shoes who has a totally
different temperament right and you're like having other people with them you know you bring other lives and other
personalities into the mix and then life is happening of course it's going to be hard you know but I wouldn't trade in
my marriage for anything in the world with all the ups and downs with all the running for president stuff I was like
why'd you do that I mean talk about that being a big gaping yeah transition thing in our lives but the good has
outweighed it and if we hadn't hung in there we would have missed all the good and that's what I tell young people
like first of all pick well pick somebody you respect and like start there right and then remember that that's who they
are and then understand that with that they are going to be and you are going to be deeply deeply flawed and you're
going to make a whole lot of mistakes right but in the end you can look that person in the eye and you go you're still
the person that I like and love and respect and we can figure this out yeah so I share that M because I don't want
people looking at me and Barack like # coupl goals and not know that no no there are some broken things that
happen even in the best of marriages absolutely and and you use that term quit Worthy is that something that you
defined for yourself what you saw as quit worthy and what you saw as not quit worthy that's a good question look I
think there there are some objective quit worthy things like criminality of course abuse but hey that's that's that's
me you know there's some people who love through a whole lot of things so I think that has to be individual but if I
were talking to my daughters I wouldn't want them in to stay in a marriage that made them feel oppressed that was
an overall negative to who they were right I do think there are reasons to walk away from Marriage friendship a
whole jobs a whole lot of things right so yeah I have a clear list of like the non-negotiables but everybody has their
own yeah absolutely and I think that's so important that you know everyone who's listening or watching that idea of
having our own quick worthy definition is is such a need because it can get really hard to find Clarity when you get
really deep into something uh a practice that I love doing with a lot of my clients and even people that I work with or
online is I ask everyone to write down the needs that they have in their life and then write down the people that fill
those needs and it could be themselves too some of them and then some of them are their friends their mom their
dad and of course in your book like we notice like your mom's like wisdom right like like she's the Budd in your life as
you say you you see different people what are the roles that you initially wanted President Obama to fill that you
then realize they actually needed to be filled by other people oh that's a good question um I right about it the fact
that we we are two very independent ambitious smart people and complex you know as as individuals we you know
we're dynamic in you know I'm not saying that as a ego trip but no I know what you mean you're constantly in flux
that's exactly right and I learned it took me a while to learn that you know there's no way we could be everything to
each other we have different interests different goals there was this stage in my marriage where I thought that's
what a partner was supposed to be you know you should call me all the time we should talk all the time we should
be each other's best friends all the time our marriage got better when I got better about that because I think he
already had that Independence this this notion of I love you I don't even if I don't talk to you today that to me is like I
don't need that I felt like I needed more of that but as I got older right it got more mature more clear about my own
goals I realized that I you know he can't be responsible for my happiness I have to be responsible for that I have to
Define it for myself I have to learn how to achieve it my husband is definitely a part of that but he is not the he I
cannot put him in the center of my happiness that freed me up to let him be him and let me be me so I have friends
who give me things that my husband doesn't give me I have girlfriends one distinction that we have is like I'm a
talker all right when I sit down with my girlfriends we can talk for days I mean literally for days we can take a break
for lunch but we can talk you know my husband's not he he can talk but he he will come by a friendship session you
know 9:00 in the morning I have a friend staying with me and he's like what are y'all talking about it's like well we're
just now getting into our kids and we're going to talk about each one of them separately for like an hour right he's
like I I couldn't do that right he can't be that for me but I have really good mostly girlfriends who give me that you
know that we will dissect life to the bitter we will ring everything out of every subject and he's like I think I'm done I
was like well you can go be done cuz I've got her and we just got started we're going to we got 12 more hours to go
right and and that's so beautiful to hear because I think especially when we're young we think that that person has
to be all of that and and from the beginning and or they'll become it there's the other fallacy of like oh well I know
who they could be and who they could become how much of that did you feel you had to disconnect and detach
from of like what this person could be to you obviously not in the world but I had a disconnect from all of those
beliefs right um and every couple is different I found I I know people who are each other's best friends they'd like to
travel together they walk and hold hands and I I have friends who are in relationships where they talk like every hour
I'm like are you talking him again nothing changed you know it's up to the individuals to Define that for themselves
that's the key word yeah for Barack and I and I think you should be clear about that because the other thing is that
when we hold on internally to an expectation of the other person we don't even share it so now we're mad that you
haven't even filled something I never even told you I need it you know that takes time and it takes work which is why
marriage is hard yes right because you'll have the tendency to live in your head and live out the image of what you
want them to be and you haven't even communicated that to them that's just one little fraction of the challenge of
marriage and friendship and all of that it's hard it takes time but it's worth it absolutely yeah I think those those
check-ins are the hardest I I know that there's there's four check-ins that I try and keep a good habit around with my
wife that have really helped me one of them is every day I'll ask her like what was your highlight today or what did
you learn today something something positive something like what's what's the best thing that happened to you
today I want to know because it's so easy for us to get so busy in our days not see each other all day not speak all
day and days can go by like that too because we're also traveling then every week I try and ask her like how can I
what can I help you with this week like is there something coming up that I just need to be aware of sometimes it's
just information and that gives me an opportunity to also tell her I've got a really stressful week coming up just know
that I may not be at my best this week I'm just letting you know uh every month I'm you know checking in with her
and trying to just say to her like uh what's what's your big Focus for this month like you know what what's the big
thing that you're working on then every year is easy like you know what's your goal this your a resolution or
whatever and I find that those questions and sometimes every quarter I'll ask a question which is the hardest one
but it's like is this relationship going in the direction you want it to and if it isn't what are you willing to do and what
am I willing to do to get it back on track because I find so often like if you just don't talk about that deep intimacy
you're just going on different tracks and that's why 5 years later you're like well I don't know you anymore yeah and
so I find that like staying in close contact but one of the biggest things I read which I wanted to try with you was uh
the Gutman Institute talked about how the number one skill or Habit in relationships and they looked at couples
who'd stayed together the longest and they found it wasn't date nights it wasn't vacations it wasn't any of this stuff it
was learning how to fight it was knowing how to deal with conflict and most couples obviously we all go well we
never fight or we're never going to fight but it's inevitable so I came up with the three fight Styles and I wanted to
know okay how you see yourself and how you see President Obama how he would see him himself and so here the
three fight styles are a ventor which means I want to fix and solve it right now you like to vent you're really trying to
fix and solve it the second one is you're a Hider you need time and space to think about it just want to go spend time
by yourself and then the third one is the Exploder where it's like I want my emotions to be heard felt and seen
before we take time apart or before we try and Sol which one are you okay so I've changed over I think early on in
our relationships I was more of an exploer wow I think he has been always been a fixer right the vent yeah fix yeah
so then I would be explosive and then want to hide right it's like I want to explode let me have my emotions and
then give me a moment yes right and he's like we've got to fix this we've got to you know shut this down we got to I
will figure it out let's talk this through um and I love that about him especially as a man you know he is somebody
that is not afraid to put his emotions out he's smart and so he knows me so he's like he won't let me pretend like
there's nothing wrong because he knows I know there's something you're a little off and um but I've had to learn
that exploding on a fixer it doesn't feel good to them right it just you know it feels good for me yes but it doesn't feel
good for him right but he's learned that as a Hider that I do need a little more time right if I'm exploding I can't be
rational enough to talk through your fixing and you if you want to fix it then I've got to be in a rational place so let
me hide for a minute so I can get myself down to a fixer place yes I think that's been the trajectory of our sorting
through learning how to argue but I like I like those but he's he's been pretty consistent yeah he is consistently the
fixer you know and he's also much more even Keel you know than I am emotionally um we're just different people in
that way and he's learned not to be too afraid of the explosiveness yes it's like I don't mean it I'm just saying it right
now cuz I need to say it yes right and that awareness that you're just displaying there is so powerful to to witness
because you realize wow it's not as serious as I'm making it out to be it's important that's right it's important and I
need to take note of it but it's I don't need to deal with it in this you right and it's maturing we all say well say what's
on your mind you know tell it like it is and it's like yeah I'm that tends to be who I am but as you get older you realize
yeah that's your heart but your head tells you you want to be heard and you have to think about who you're talking
to and what your in goal is because that will dictate how you have to communicate to them so when you're young
you just want to be heard yes as you get older you have a goal you want to achieve something and being hurt in the
way you say it may not get you to your goal yes I mean that's at the Crux for me of what going high is right I mean
going high is being Strate iic if you're really trying to make change you have to think about whether your approach
will allow for change to happen you know going high means you're thinking about a broader Point outside of your
own anger or hurt or pain you're thinking where am I trying to get to and how do I do that with this group that I'm
trying to move that's passion matured into purpose and young people often they want to just act with passion yes
right but passion doesn't always solve a thing and I've learned that in my relationship you know my passion isn't is
meaningless if my husband can't hear it you know if I've hurt his feelings in the process well what's that's not the
point you know so I have to mature my passion you know I have to mature it as a mother right I have to be very
careful as a mother with the words I say I can't just say what's on my mind I can to think about how I say it to which
child yes because they're both different and they both need to be parented different right so going high is like to me
it's the mature way to live right it's the it's mature way to get the message across it doesn't mean that how you feel
isn't relevant right it's true it's real and true but that's that's for you to deal with when you're dealing with external
people whether it's your husband or your kids or your friends your passion has to take weight of what's going to
work with this person what's going to work with this group of people to me that's what going high is yeah what a
great definition I think you're the best person to have this conversation with I love how you explain the need for that
and actually I don't think I've heard it explained in that way before I really appreciate it because I think currently
we've confused being authentic and being strategic what you were just saying is when you're sharing how you feel
you are being authentic but maybe it won't be authentically received or heard or seen because it wasn't strategically
perceived but we sometimes today perceive strategy as manipulation or as a technique as opposed to or selling out
or selling out right walk me through that because I think how we perceive we we've put authenticity on a pedestal
which is not wrong but we've put strategy as like the thing that you of you know shun well and maybe strategy is too
strategic or hard of a word but you could replace that with empathy right you know if you connectivity it's sort of like
who am I trying to move and where are they in this right and when you're the president of the United States or the
first lady you have a big platform I've always felt like I have a responsibility to set my feelings aside and think about
where are you MH why are you so angry where is your hate coming from because yeah I can be mad at your hate I
can be mad that you're you know you just said something racist or you knocked me down a peg or you misjudged me
but if I'm trying to fix the relationship I've got to understand what are you going through where did that perception
come from what's your history what put you in this Spirit of hate because that's going to dictate how we can even
begin to have the conversation I don't lose my authenticity in that because I know who I am right but I have to make
room to understand who you are that's either strategy or empathy but to me effective communication especially if
you're a leader if you have the power it requires a step back yes right and I think that's what going high is and I do
you're right I think in this day and age we've kind of supplanted that consideration because my feelings count my
voice has to be heard which is also why I think we have to learn how to hear people throughout right we have to give
people a space to be heard outside of the anger right because that's where all that's coming from right when people
can't mature their response it's because they don't have a voice it's like if I don't have a voice in regular conversation
then I will make you hear me yes right young people feel that way absolutely right oppressed people feel that way
people who don't have a stake in it feel that way which is why I think it's strategic to give everybody a piece of
something so that they feel seen and heard I think that brings that ratchets down the anger the explosiveness
because people can guarantee that they are being seen they'll be heard they don't have to yell they don't have to
tear something apart they don't have to break it because they own it and we just lose sight of that th% these days in
our policies and our perspectives you can't shut people out you know I I talk about in the light when I think about
kids from communities that are underinvested in their their anger their lack of like I don't none of this belongs to me
so why would I protect it why wouldn't I break down your house or Rob you or try to take your car because I don't
own any of this this country is not mine they don't see me right I think we do better with kids if they feel like I've got
a chance here this place is investing in me so I'm invested in it we do that with kids in the in in City but we you know
we don't talk about education we don't talk about what we're giving them or whether they have music or or Joy or
sports or activities we just want them to have nothing and then be okay with it but they're going to fight to be heard
yes they're going to fight to be seen but they're not going to do it in a rational way because they don't have a
strategic place and they don't feel like they're a part of it so true so true when you're trying to go high when you're
trying to have this view of I want to understand your story I want to get inside your mindset and and recognize why
you have evolved in this direction or this particular path if anything what does still offend you like Injustice uh ego
greed it's offensive racism ignorance it's offensive and I've always been that kid I don't like unfairness I don't like
bullies but I have to think about how I deliver messages that's beautiful still even in my pain and my anger and my
disappointment so th those emotions are there MH but I have to think about where do where do I let that out yes in
a safe space and that's what my kitchen table is right I still have those emotions but in my public facing voice I have
to be responsible right and strategic and thoughtful about what's going to move the needle what's going to add
value my emotional well-being gets taken care of at the kitchen table I I I can't suffocate those feelings but I can't act
them out in the Town Square yeah cuz I'm just going to add fuel to the fire and that doesn't help if we're trying to
move the needle and that doesn't make you inauthentic I don't believe because those feelings are still mine and if
you ask me I'll tell you what I'm angry about but I I'm not going to lead with that in the midst of the message I'll
make it clear what I stand for and what I don't stand for but the tone and tenor of the message matters we can't just
say what what the first thing that comes to our minds we cannot that is not authenticity to me that's that's childish
and we see childish leadership right before us what that looks like and how that feels where somebody is just base
and and vulgar and cynical in a leadership position it it doesn't trickle down well you know that just beg gets more of
that I think we are obligated to model for those of us that have a platform because it resonates and I want to
resonate good I want to resonate reason and compassion and empathy and that's more important than my feelings
cuz my feelings I can take care of those that is uh that's that's a master class in communication right there genuinely
that is to hear that from you with so much empathy but energy is so empowering for everyone who's listening and
watching because I think I think we've approached it from the other way around today I think I think my personal
feelings not mine but in general how we feel my personal feelings have become more important than moving and
supporting and serving and caring and getting to where we need to get to and that's because we've suppressed
those feelings that's why that has happened it hasn't happened because people are mean or insensitive it's
happened because people feel they've been so unheard going back to your point and that's why we need to give
space we need to get let this rise how early did you start recognizing this for you in your own life like where do you
remember like the earliest before the White House like where you actually were like this worked like this made
sense and I still felt good because I had my kitchen table is there anything that comes to mind and do I go to
Childhood I don't think I knew any of when I was little but I think I you know I learned it on the campaign Trail it it
was um product of one of the hardest moments that I had on the campaign Trail but one of the best growth
moments and I write about this in the light when I was accused of not loving my country because of some phrasing I
said I learned first of all that when you have a public forum especially in this day and age that in and you're like
competing people will distort you whenever they can and and if they distort your words your truth even your
personhood which I felt like people attempted to do with me with us they tried to otherize us as the first black
people accusing my husband of being a terrorist and not being born in this country accusing me of being an angry
black woman and you know the labels that can easily get put on others the people that are othered right to make
people afraid of us that that is a strategy that gets played again and again and again it was being played on me and it
got me to the point where I was almost ready to quit campaigning right but then I thought I have to be more
strategic than they are about how I deliver my message I have to be authentic but I also have to be careful so that I
don't get mischaracterized I have to be smarter than them that doesn't mean I stoph but I had to regroup for a
minute there and really evaluate how am I going to regain control over my narrative mhm and communicate in a
broad way right that allows s me to be heard especially as a black woman yes here being critical or being authentic
or passionate right that was a learning curve to me I I mean I think my sentiments about the importance of
communication were always there yes my belief in how important it is that stories connect us that was there I've
learned that in life but learning how to do that on the public stage I I learned the tricks and pitfalls of it in my first
campaign yes and those lessons stay with me yeah that's thank you for that example that example definitely
connects you reminded me of probably one of my favorite set of words from Martin Luther King where he said that
people who love peace need to learn to organize themselves as well as those who love war for those of us who love
love and love peace and love compassion and empathy yeah if if we're not organized about it if we're not strategic
about it if we're not thoughtful about it that's right it won't have the impact that we all Cay for it to have um
Michelle we you've been so kind and generous with your time we end every episode with a final five uh these are
the Fast Five W I always ruin because I'm too interested and curious uh they usually answered in one word to one
sentence maximum but I know I'm gonna I'm gonna ruin it so it's fine uh so the first question I have to ask you
Michelle is what is the best advice you've ever heard or received heard a lot of it from my wife's mom come home
we like you here to explain that it was like my parents always taught me that the world won't always like you but you
can't count on the World to like you you come home to be liked you go out there to get your education to earn a
living you won't necessarily find people who will see you or love you or like you you get that here right that's been a
piece of advice that stuck oh that's beautiful thank you that's that's so powerful I know a lot of people who need to
hear that right now uh second question what is the worst advice you've ever heard or received I don't know I don't I
don't know that the worst advice stays with me you let it go my brother this isn't the worst right but it goes back to
what we were saying earlier you know he's like when you get into the White House you got to be careful No New
Friends right that's not who he is but you know it was a short way of saying be careful I think staying open MH was
more important in this phase in our lives than being closed off MH I'm I'm glad we stayed open I'm glad too uh
question number three you said that the White House doesn't change you it reveals more of who you are yeah what
did it reveal to you about yourself that I'm pretty strategic and smart smart and resilient the White House tests you
in ways that you never anticipated and the fact that we came out as a family as individuals the four of us me and our
two daughters that was us MH that was our values our compassion our our smarts our strategy that got us through
you know I'm so proud of my husband in the way he led the way his administration worked the team that we built so
proud of everyone I I may have diverted from the question but beautiful um to I think that's that's because of who
we are and I know that now I can I can see it in your eyes and and feel it from your words like it's it it must be hard
like knowing that you know it it can't always be that way one sense it's almost like great that you've been able to
leave but there's a there's that feeling also of like oh but that was great I mean the bars are different for people in
life that I've learned this is the thing about being another MH you learn how to be excellent all the time because you
can't be less than other people can other people can be indicted a bunch of times and still run for for office black
man can't you just learn to be good and in the end you benefit from that extra resilience you know you could be mad
about it but it also makes you more equipped right but it's still not fair yeah definitely uh question number four we
got two more left question number four you've obviously already began living and will leave an incredible Legacy for
the work that you done if you could describe what that you'd want that Legacy to read if someone was reading it or
hearing it what would it what would it say that she helped more young people feel seen is I start with young people
because with one word we can change a kid's life we can lift them up but that same wrong one word can crush them
forever and those are the building blocks of our Humanity how we treat our kids all of them right and so I hope that
my legacy is creating a stronger foundation for young people a fifth and final question we ask this to every guest
who's ever been on the show more more appropriate with guests like yourselves but if you could create one law in
the world world that everyone had to follow what would it be everybody should have a a home to live in food to eat
a job to go to an education period there would be the fundamental rights of everyone in the world now there could
be levels of that you know we would not live in a world where so few have so much and so many have nothing MH
and that law would create some kind of equity we have this trickle down approach right that's the basis of a
capitalistic economy right but that's not happening yes it's not trickling the law would we it would require in
whatever way if we're not trickling voluntarily then we need to be forced to trickle how do we create that law come
in how do we get that mandatory trickling down right no we so need that need that What's blocking that what's
what's stopping that I think fear yeah I mean I I write about fear because I think fear is at the source of so much
because I think the people who have a lot are afraid of not having enough and it's not rational right but we fear the
other too and so it's hard to give to people that you think you should be afraid of because you you can't connect
with them we're all human we're so alike I don't care about skin color or how we pray or who how we love we're all
the same what keeps us from seeing that is fear right I don't know you you're different so I got to be afraid of you
and I can't I I have to make sure you don't come into my space and then we live in a culture where people with
power pre on fear to get more power I to make you all afraid of each other MH and then I can come in and Rule it all
right I think fear is at the root of that sh I deeply appreciate uh your time your energy your presence the eloquence
but also the the Deep energy you bring to conversations like these and I'm definitely grateful for the light you carry
and I'm very deeply appreciative for you sharing it on on purpose and I hope this will be the first of many
conversations together sooy thank you so much thank you we'll talk again absolutely thank you if you love this
episode you will enjoy my interview with Dr Daniel Aman on how to change your life by changing your brain if we
want a healthy mind it actually starts with a healthy brain you know I've had the blessing or the curse to scan over a
thousand convicted felons and over a hundred murderers and their brains are very damaged