MAY 2024 AFRICA

MONEY
TALKS
HOW YOUR
WALLET CAN
CHANGE THE
WORLD

SEX
ACTIVIST
STOYA
THE LEADER
PORN NEEDS
NOW!

ICONOCLAST
JASON DILL
RETURNING
SKATEBOARDING
TO ITS ROOTS
G OR G EO U S
Denise Leitão
Rocha
WWW.PLAYBOY.CO.ZA 4.99 USD

20027

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CONTENTS
12 PICTORIAL
KIKI D'AIRE

42 ON THE COVER
DENISE LEITÃO ROCHA

60 PICTORIAL
KINDLY MYERS

78 PICTORIAL
LARISSA SUMPANI

ISSUE
No 81 | May 2024
06 MONEY TALKS
How your wallet can change the world

08 SEX ACTIVIST STOYA

The leader porn needs now!

20 ARTISTS IN RESIDENCE
Contemporary artists reimagine
sexuality in art

28 20Q: KEHLANI
On gender, music & being a mom

38 NOVELIST PAUL BEATTY

Is making room for writers of color

40 MEDIA WUNDERKIND NOOR TAGOURI

Makes a forceful case for modesty

52 FRONTWOMAN LAURA JANE GRACE

The punk rocker fights for what
she believes in

54 ICONOCLAST JASON DILL

Returning skateboarding to its roots

56 INDIE DEVELOPER SEAN MURRAY

Boldly goes where no gamer has
gone before

68 TELLING THE TRUTH

We get candid with Jemele Hill

86 DOPE TUTOR
Where to buy black-owned weed

88 DEFENDING DEMOCRACY
Why journalists aren’t expendable
42
92 INSIDE TIM & ERIC
Awesome Show, Great Job
4
Changing the
World With
Your Wallet

The way we spend our money is a daily

weapon for reform. Here, America’s most
renowned consumer advocate makes the
BY RALPH NADER
case for direct citizen action

MAY 2024
Speaking before college audiences, I often ask, “How many
of you have never been to a McDonald’s or a Walmart?” No
hands go up—except mine. I explain that I’ve never given my
consumer dollars to McDonald’s because of its deadly menu of
fat, sugar and salt that has increased youth obesity for two gen-
"Even a small portion of
erations. I’ve similarly refused to give my money to Walmart
because of its low wages and unfair competitive practices that
crush small businesses.
that dollar power could
If you’re concerned about the impact your money has on the
ZRUOGDIWHULWOHDYHV\RXUSRFNHW\RXQHHGWRGH¿QH\RXUFRQ- be used to advance our
sumer preferences. In an internet age it’s easy to research brands
to see if you agree with their positions on political candidates
and their stands on diversity and nondiscrimination. But rarely
country’s health, safety
do enough consumers vote with their dollars to send a clear and
convincing message to companies that need to change.
:K\")LUVWLWFDQEHGLI¿FXOW:HOOV)DUJRWKHUHJXODWLRQ
and moral strength."
UHVLVWLQJEDQNZLWKDERXWEUDQFKHVZDV¿QDOO\H[SRVHG
after two recent crimes: Over the course of 2016 and 2017 it
ZDVGLVFRYHUHGWKDWWKH¿QDQFLDOLQVWLWXWLRQKDGFUHDWHGXSWR
3.5 million fake accounts and made unnecessary auto-insurance
purchases for more than 800,000 unknowing customers. The
media reported the details of these crimes extensively. The bank or other trade associations that push for weaker environmen-
KDGWRSD\PLOOLRQVRIGROODUVLQUHVWLWXWLRQDQG¿QHVUHJXODWRUV tal standards, higher drug prices, more tax escapes for big
put a temporary moratorium on its capital expansion, and the businesses or tort restrictions that weaken access to our courts
bosses stepped down, ample pay packages in hand. But what by wrongfully injured persons. This will expose companies
the bank’s directors feared most was loss of customers and an with no visible consumer brand or identity.
enduring stock-price collapse. That didn’t happen—because as Sleeping Giants is a Twitter account that informs advertis-
everybody knows, switching banks is complicated, inconven- ers of consumers’ disdain for companies or news sites that fail
ient and time-consuming. to oppose bigotry, racism, sexism and hate-mongering. This
Second, consumers may have limited options. If you have a public outing of abusers has caused thousands of companies
small income or live in a rural area with few if any alternatives to cancel their advertising contracts for fear of being accused
WR:DOPDUWDQG$PD]RQLW¶VGLI¿FXOWWROHYHUDJH\RXUFRQVXP- of supporting media outlets or personalities—such as Fox’s
er dollars for better business practices. Bill O’Reilly—whose behavior contradicts customer values
And then there are the subtler methods practiced by tech gi- or corporate policies. This collateral pressure works (though
ants such as Facebook and Google. When a company gives you at times, like all mass movements, it can go to extremes).
something for free, you become the product. Information about You can be a “pick and choose” consumer based on your
your private life is central to the business model of these giant SROLWLFDOYDOXHVZLWKRXWVDFUL¿FLQJDJRRGGHDO,NQRZSHRSOH
internet companies. You’re unlikely to simply say “I want out” who won’t buy gas from ExxonMobil because of the com-
of your social networks after learning that Facebook has shared pany’s long-standing cover-up of and resistance to regulations
your personal data with everyone who wants it anywhere in dealing with climate disinformation. Years ago, consumers
the world. But when you click “accept” on those encyclopedic troubled by Philip Morris’s control of congressional politi-
terms and conditions, you lose control of your online privacy, cians and promotion of smoking refused to purchase products
DQG\RXUGDWDSUR¿OHJURZVE\WKHGD\ from the company’s food subsidiaries. And when it comes to
Our government, heavily lobbied by Silicon Valley, will not environmental malefactors like the Koch brothers, consumers
require Facebook to provide an opt-in button. To opt out from can penalize them—and help themselves and the planet at the
Facebook and its ilk requires willpower. When news broke that same time—by practicing energy conservation. Solar panels
the social network had allowed unsavory companies to obtain and products made from renewable resources are good places
information about tens of millions of its customers, hundreds to start.
of thousands of them closed their accounts. This protest hardly However, it’s worth adding that consumers don’t have to
made a dent. Facebook still has more than 2 billion users world- open their wallets for corporations to change practices. Notice
wide, including more than half the U.S. population. But Mr. how many powerful executives were immediately dismissed
=XFNHUEHUJGH¿QLWHO\IHOWWKHFDXWLRQDU\WUHPRUV after facing credible accusations of sexual harassment, as-
$QRWKHU GLI¿FXOW\ LV SUHVHQWHG E\ WKH ULJKWZLQJ DQG YHU\ sault and rape. Companies ranging from Fox News to Morgan
politically active Koch brothers. Together they’re worth more Stanley couldn’t ignore the waves of condemnation from con-
than R1,850.00 billion, mainly from giant oil, gas and chemi- sumers, workers and citizen action groups. Reporting by the
cal enterprises. They lobby for corporation-friendly judges and mass media helped accelerate the process.
against even minimal taxation. But they have no recognizable Remember, consumer spending accounts for more than
logo or brand presence at the retail level. two thirds of our economy. Even a small portion of that dollar
:KDWFDQ\RXGR")LUVWHGXFDWH\RXUVHOI,W¶VHDV\WR¿QG power could be used to advance our country’s health, safety
out which companies belong to the U.S. Chamber of Commerce and moral strength. Protest with your spending choices.

MAY 2024
Sex
Activist
Stoya
Is the Leader
Porn Needs Now

Co-founder of the genre-defying porn site

TrenchcoatX, activist and sex star Stoya
talks to Playboy about love, beauty and
dealing with the haters

BY MOLLY CRABAPPLE PHOTOGRAPHY BY RYAN LOWRY

It’s hard to capture an old friend in one anecdote, but I’ll scale while doing things in the way that seems most right?”
try. The time is two a.m., and Stoya and I are smoking out- PLAYBOY: How do you deal with backlash?
side an East Village bar. A mink hangs from her shoulders. STOYA: Which backlash? The backlash from people from whatever
The streetlights catch her feline cheekbones like a kiss. extremist religion—underline italics bold, it’s not the Christians, not
Stoya tells me about the mid–19th century prima ballerina the Muslims, it’s whichever religion’s gone crazypants off the rails—
(PPD/LYU\,QDQHUDZKHQGDQFHUVURXWLQHO\FDXJKW¿UH who think some book written however the fuck long ago that said
from stage lights, Livry refused to destroy the ethereality people who have sex in whatever proscribed way aren’t people? Is it
RIKHUDUWE\VRDNLQJKHUWXWXLQÀDPHUHWDUGDQW:KHQVKH the backlash from feminists who say I’m a traitor to women? Or from
died of burns, she had no regrets. Stoya notes that panic other feminists who want to put sex in a box where its all sunshine and
about safety often focuses on the bodies, and the choices, of daisies and and where all porn is—barf—empowering? Is it the back-
young women. She wonders why no one thought to move lash from the people who have no problems with porn but think it’s
the lights. disgusting that I smoke cigarettes? I just try not to engage. The only
This moment hints at Stoya’s ferocious mix of glam- times I can’t avoid engaging with it are when there’s a well-inten-
our, toughness and nerdery. A classically trained ballerina tioned fan who thinks “fuck the haters” is a rallying cry, or when some
until an injury in her mid-teens ruined her prospects, Stoya journalist throws the worst shit people say about you in your face.
became a porn star—and I use the word star in the sense PLAYBOY: I want to talk about beauty—and I mean beauty in the
that applies to Garbo. She has written for The New York larger sense, not in the sense used to sell face cream.**
7LPHVVWDUUHGLQD6HUELDQVFL¿¿OP WKHXSFRPLQJ(GHU- STOYA: Beauty is the thing that makes it worth it. It’s what makes
lezi Rising) and trained as an aerialist in Moscow. She has you drag your ass out of bed in the morning. It’s what makes you
also moved into entrepreneurship, co-founding the genre- continue to respond to the internal question, Why bother?
defying porn site TrenchcoatX. PLAYBOY: Your professional name, Stoya, is a tribute to your Ser-
When one of the biggest porn studios in the country bian grandmother, and you recently starred in Ederlezi Rising, a Ser-
treated her with disrespect, she chose to work as a waitress ELDQVFL¿URPDQFH:KDWGRHV\RXU6HUELDQKHULWDJHPHDQWR\RX"
rather than kowtow. No matter what she does, Stoya exudes STOYA:7KHUH¶VDYHU\VSHFL¿FPL[RIUHDOLVPDQGKRSHWKDW,DOZD\V
D¿HUFHKDUGZRQVHQVHRIIUHHGRP saw in my grandmother and that I see in Serbia. Pragmatism might
be a more precise word than realism. In the West, speicially the Eng-
PLAYBOY: What challenges do you face every day in the lish speaking West, we have so many pompous bags of air in suits.
course of your work? We see them go on television or on Twitter, and I’ve sat across from
STOYA: What day is it, because just about every day the VRPHRIWKHPLQWKHLURI¿FHV7KH\SURPLVHSHRSOHWKHPRVWRXWODQG-
challenge is different. That’s the nature of challenge. This ish things. Anyone looking rationally at what they have to work with
month, my big challenge is learning how to deal with the knows they’re full of shit. They’re as self-aggrandizing and empty as
EXUHDXFUDWLF DQG RI¿FH HQG RI UXQQLQJ D SRUQ SURGXFWLRQ the Wizard of Oz. My grandmother makes amazing things with no
company and website. This time last year, my challenge resources. You know those Styrofoam trays that meat comes in? My
ZDV³2KIXFNRXU¿UVWSURJUDPPHUEDLOHGRQXVDQGWKH grandmother would build whole landscapes from those trays. Land-
QHZRQHGRHVQ¶WKDYHWLPHWR¿JXUHRXWKRZWKH¿UVWRQH scapes, from actual trash. That’s looking at what is actually there,
was doing it, so how am I going to learn enough HTML to which is trash, and transforming it with some paint and some effort
get my shit together?” and a shit-ton of creativity. Everyone who worked on Ederlezi Rising
PLAYBOY: How do you balance your art, your ethical/ in Serbia is like that. I’ve been in pornos with budgets bigger than
political ideals and the grind of running a business? Ederlezi Rising has, and it’s beautiful.
STOYA: Pessimism time: The question for me there is less PLAYBOY: How has training as a ballerina affected your life?
about how I hope to balance those, and more, “Is it possible STOYA: It gave me a near suicidal work ethic. It gave me a very
WRKDYHD¿QDQFLDOO\YLDEOHEXVLQHVVDWDQLQFUHDVLQJO\ODUJH interesting relationship to physical sensations of pain—by this I mean
complex and multilayered. For people who took a lot of dance in-
struction in youth, and went into sex or sex-work-adjacent work, it
seems pretty common to have a multifaceted masochism that relates
"Beauty is the to lived experience in a dance studio. Of course, ballet gives one a
well-practiced awareness of one’s body that comes in super handy
when one is in front of camera.
thing that makes it PLAYBOY: One of the things I’ve always seen and admired in you
LVWKLV¿HUFHKDUGZRQVHQVHRIIUHHGRP,¶GORYHWRKHDU\RXULIIRQ
worth it. It’s what what freedom means to you.
STOYA: First we have to acknowledge capitalism. Money exerts be-
havioral control in so many ways; that’s the frontline of behavioral
makes you contin- control in the US. You spend your childhood hearing you have to do
this and that to get into a good college, to get a degree to get a good
ue to respond to job and buy shit. It’s not even presented as “buy shit” but as having
WKLQJVLQWHJUDOWRDGXOWKRRGWRIXO¿OOLQJWKHSURPLVHRIWKH$PHULFDQ
dream, like a very large house that costs a lot to keep warm in the
the question, Why winter. That’s broken in me. I don’t have that button. I don’t have
the “how will you have that lifestyle” button. I just sort of don’t care.
bother?" Which could work very much against me in the context of how to run
a business, but it works in the context of being happy with the work
I’m doing and the conditions I’m doing it in, and its driven me to a
point where the only dudes in suits I have to answer to are VISA,
MasterCard and the IRS

11

MAY 2024
 Instagram @kikidaire_

Photography by Miles Long | @mileslong4real

13

MAY 2024
Model journey My model journey started in Memphis, style. Small-minded people are everywhere and
TN in approximately 1996. I was working as a dancer they aren’t always nice, adversity is the norm
in one of the local strip clubs and kept seeing featured because they don’t understand what we do. I’ve
entertainers come through. I decided I wanted to do survived and thrived in the adult business for
the same thing and collect a paycheck from the club over 20 years at this point, definitely not an easy
instead of just working for tips. I had already had a bit feat. In a landscape that often chews people up
of a taste of shooting a movie since the majority of and spits them out, I’m still here with a smile on
The People vs Larry Flynt was shot in my hometown. my face and plenty of positive things to say. If
I got the call to audition for Courtney Love and Milos that doesn’t embody strength, intelligence, and
Forman to decide which Hustler club dancer I’d play ambition...well, I don’t know what does.
as well as to shoot photos for the set decorators to
use. The photoshoot was a lot of fun and shot by a real Misconceptions I do are very much a job and are
Hustler photographer! Once I decided to become a very regulated. I get tested for a dozen stis every
feature, I got hooked up with an agent and started do- two weeks as do my partners, and while some-
ing nude beauty pageants and actual magazine work. times I choose my partners, other times I work
My first title was Miss Nude French Riviera 1997 and with who I’m booked with. It’s important to make
my first magazine layout was soon booked. I discov- my partner look good while I look like I’m hav-
ered that while fun, the pageants were a big expense ing an amazing time even if I’m not. Before we
though I did get to shoot with people like the famed shoot a scene there are extensive conversations
Bunny Yeager, and the magazines weren’t pushing my about dos and don’ts, positions, and confirma-
fee up. By that time, I realized that doing porn was the tion that no one is under the influence of drugs/
quickest way to drive my fees higher so I made the alcohol and is there of their own free will. A party
decision to go for it. I went to LA and began my foray it definitely is not and everyone has a common
into the world of adult film. I was nervous at first but goal which is to get the best content possible
found that I really enjoyed doing features with scripts as quickly as possible. Speaking of drugs and
and I loved working on the various shows that Playboy alcohol, while most people think that is stuff is
TV did like Sex Court. Playboy radio was always a lot readily available 24/7 on set, it isn’t. There are
of fun too. a large number of completely sober people in
the business and those things are not tolerated
3 must-dos for relaxation My best friends live ex- on set at all. It’s a huge liability. Freedom of self-
tremely close and we are constantly doing things to- expression- obviously, working on The People vs
gether like camping or going to comedy shows. The Larry Flynt was an experience but also it made
time spent with them helps keep me grounded and we me think about the people who fought for our
regularly schedule things way in advance to make sure right to make adult entertainment. Larry was the
we get in that time together. Another thing that helps only person to go to jail in the early days and
keep my head together is finding ways to include my it’s important to remember those who paid hefty
partner in what I’m doing. He loves being on set when fines and spent time behind bars while paving
I’m shooting for myself both as a spectator and par- the way for us to do what we do. I truly believe
ticipant. I enjoy him expressing himself sexually as well that adult entertainment can have a very positive
and find that playing together or separately only helps effect when used as an aid to a healthy sex life.
keep our bond strong. Lastly, our 4 dogs are an end- Sex is part of the human experience and should
less source of laughter and cuddles. There is nothing be celebrated. Let those fantasies out and play in
as relaxing as being home with
my partner and the fur babies!
It definitely helps to have crea-
tures that depend on us for their
well-being as far as priorities go.

What does it mean It matters

immensely given the negative
stereotypes that persist in so-
ciety. No, I’m not forced to do
anything. No, I don’t hate my job.
No, I don’t do what I do because
of abuse. I do what I do because
I’m happy with my life. I went to
college, I have a degree. I’d lose
my mind if I had to work in cor-
porate America, it’s just not for
me which doesn’t mean I can’t
do it. I can, I just don’t want to.
It takes a lot of guts to live life
on your own terms, strength in
yourself and who you are, is es-
sential when living in what could
be considered an alternative life-

17

MAY 2024
a safe, sane, consensual way! Humans need the pictures from 20-plus years ago and Advice to women love and relation-
release that comes with an orgasm. that’s super cool for the most part. I ships Don’t let all the wrong guys dis-
did one time have someone send me courage you. Invest in yourself and
3HUVRQDO H[SHULHQFH DV DQ LQ³XHQFHU So- an old yearbook photo from junior your own self-worth while you are
cial media is so crazy to me...it’s completely high and I’m still trying to figure out single. Figure out who you are and
changed the way we do so many things. I how they even found that. Trying to what you want. Take chances and
can follow all types of reviewers and take the catch my eye the right way- I like a never be afraid to change directions.
guesswork out of picking a new restaurant or confident, respectful man who treats When you do find someone special,
getting reviews about any other type of busi- me like a lady. Open that door for me, nurture it and love them for who they
ness! It’s pretty awesome. The other thing I like hold my hand, and make sure I get to are. Tell them how much you appreci-
is being able to use my social media to get the my destination safely. Be a gentleman ate them as well as show them, check
word out about small businesses or causes that and yourself. Manners matter! Expen- in with them, and communicate to the
I support. sive gifts and things like that don’t point that you almost feel like you are
matter to me as much as thoughtful- overdoing it. You aren’t. Communica-
3 things I can’t go without daily My part- ness. I’d much rather a man listen and tion really is key.
ner makes the best coffee and I have to have give me their time and attention over
it in the morning. The various supplements just throwing money at me. And lastly, Any last words It’s an honor to be in
not only make me feel better but keep me be an emotionally intelligent man of this month's magazine! Thank you
healthier since I don’t have a lot of time to substance. Intelligence and kindness so much for giving me the chance to
get sick. Laughter! Lots and lots of laughter! are unbelievably sexy. Worst thing a share my answers with you.
DMs- I’m actually happy that I don't get a ton man can do- I have zero patience for
of really out-there ones. I have fans who have guys who think that all they need is
been with me since I started and those DMs I money. Money comes and goes, an en-
wouldn’t call it crazy, but I definitely get sent titled, arrogant attitude doesn’t.

18
 19

MAY 2024
Artist in
Residence:
Chloé
Kovska

Familiar characters are

reimagined as libidinous
cartoons in the cheeky
world of Chloé Kovska

WRITTEN BY JEAN ANDRÉ

,¶YHKDGDFUXVKRQ&KORp.RYVND¶VZRUNVLQFH,¿UVWVSRW- her artwork in Los Angeles, San Francisco and Miami, but
ted it on Instagram a few years ago. That delightful riot of she mostly keeps to herself, preferring that the details of
bubble butts, red devils and Playboy Rabbit Heads nestled her life remain obscure. She likes to use canvas or card-
deep into my brain, where my inner child waits impatient- board and acrylic paint, which dries more quickly than oil
ly for me to go senile. Kovska has the ability to reduce and keeps colors bright—all the better to bring her kinky,
forms to the essential, paying tribute to the American tat- trippy pop-cartoon visions to life.
too tradition and Golden Age comics and cartoons while I contacted her to get a piece to hang above my desk
adding her own primal twist. It’s as though Tex Avery, and another to be tattooed on my arm. I have tried not to
Sailor Jerry and Robert Crumb got together and hosted fall in love with her, but it’s hard: Aside from her gifts as
an orgy at the Playboy Mansion. In her words, “I paint an artist, Kovska is as sweet and beautiful as you would
desires, urges, dreams, inspirations and memories with imagine. Ultimately, I prefer to sit in the audience, like
lovers, dressed up in cartoons.” Avery’s Big Bad Wolf, my eyes bursting out of my head
I learned that Kovska grew up in Melbourne, Aus- at Chloé Kovska’s pink panthers, gorgeous goddesses and
tralia, where her father taught her to paint. She has shown red-hot riding hoods.

Playtime. Acrylic and gesso on canvas, 20 x 16 inches, 2016.

22

MAY 2024
 Sex Wolf. Acrylic on canvas, 20 x 16 inches, 2014.

As Quiet as a Mouse…. Acrylic on canvas,

18 x 14 inches, 2014.

Pink Panther and Little Dot, Acrylic on canvas,

24 x 20 inches, 2014.

Inspired by '76. Acrylic and gesso on

canvas, 18 x 14 inches, 2016.
Familiar characters are
reimagined as libidinous
cartoons in the cheeky
world of Chloé Kovska

WRITTEN BY SHEA ADAMS

Long before he designed the main characters on the Fox KH ORYHV WR ³JHW KLJK DQG À\ ¿UVW FODVV´ ZLWK D SOD\ER\
cartoon series Bob’s Burgers or co- created Nickelodeon’s in hand, and he excitedly describes how the great Shel
Sanjay and Craig, Jay Howell liked to draw his lanky Silverstein, having served as head cartoonist here in the
EXJH\HG¿JXUHVRQWRWKHSDJHVRIIRXQGPDJD]LQHV OLNH 1950s and 1960s, traveled the globe as a sort of illustrator-
PLAYBOY) and free-bin erotic novels. “It kind of satis- journalist for the magazine. “I mean, imagine that. That’s
¿HGP\VLFNGHVLUHWRIHHOOLNH,¶GDFFRPSOLVKHGVRPHWKLQJ so fun!” Clearly the two artists have a connection beyond
bigger,” he says. “It’s like, Hey, I’m part of the magazine the Rabbit banner: Their work just feels good. “I try to be
now!” In addition to showing his work up and down the in a good mood constantly, so yeah, I’m a hippie, “Howell
coast and illustrating skateboard decks for Consolidated says, adding, “but I also own guns and love to drive fast
and for Creature, the Bay Area native is probably the only cars.
artist with both Vans and Gucci collaborations under his
belt. And now that the self-described “posh spaz” is our
inaugural Artist in Residence, Howell’s dream of appear-
ing in the magazine has actually come true. He tells us

26

MAY 2024
 27

MAY 2024
 20

Kehlani
In the lead-up to her new release, the soul-
baring singer opens up to Playboy about
playing with gender, finding new joy in song-
writing, and how “being a mom is the sexiest
thing ever.”

BY GERRICK D. KENNEDY PHOTOGRAPHY BY BRIANNA ALYSSE

Kehlani has never been afraid to reveal herself. Her joys, fears, All the hate and negativity Kehlani encountered online added
triumphs and mistakes have stood front and center in her music to the pressures she felt ahead of her major-label debut, 2017’s
since the beginning of her ascent to stardom. And that emotional SweetSexySavage, a collection of vibrant pop and R&B she
intimacy, in all its heart-on-the-sleeve glory, stretches into made while trying to get her head on straight.
her personality. Anyone who follows the 25-year-old singer- And then came last year’s It Was Good Until It Wasn’t, a
songwriter online (14 million people between her Twitter and deeply personal album that showed her examining relationships
Instagram, to be exact) knows Kehlani gives it to you straight, no and processing her feelings without the positivity afforded by
FKDVHU²ZKHWKHULW¶VULI¿QJRQKHUGD\RUUHVSRQGLQJWRDEXOO\ youthful insouciance. She was a mother now—her daughter
or a rumor about her life. If modern celebrity is a balancing act Adeya Nomi was born in 2019—and she was ready to do some
between being accessible and remaining enigmatic, Kehlani has alchemy on herself. It Was Good Until It Wasn’t perfectly
succeeded by opting for warts-and-all transparency instead of VXPPHG XS ZKHUH VKH ZDV DW WKH WLPH +HU KHDUW ZDV ¿OOHG
carefully curated moods. with grief. The messy unraveling of her relationship with rapper
In just a few short years, the Oakland native has become YG was playing out on the blogs, and she was reeling from the
one of pop’s most vital tragic loss of close friends
voices, winning fans with Chynna Rogers and Lexii
optimistic meditations on Alijai, rising rappers who
romantic desire, anguish, passed away three months
VHOIORYH VH[XDO ÀXLGLW\ apart (the album ends with
spirituality and mental a verse from Alijai).
wellness. But it was a It’s the kind of
bumpy journey. Kehlani’s heaviness that usually
father died when she was pushes an artist to make
an infant, her mom was their most poignant
in and out of jail while work, and Kehlani was
struggling with addiction no exception. It Was
and she was placed in Good Until It Wasn’t was
foster care before her her most personal and
aunt adopted her. The successful project to date,
QDWLRQ ¿UVW PHW .HKODQL speaking not only to how
as a wide-eyed teenager damn good the record is
on America’s Got Talent (many critics put it on
in 2011, when she was their year-end lists, and
in an eclectic cover band it hit number one on the
hoping to catch a break. Billboard R&B charts),
The group placed fourth but also to Kehlani’s
in the competition, and bold decision to release
judge Piers Morgan it by tackling the creative
rightly noted that she’d promotion from her garage
be better off solo. But (with the blessing of her
reality show platitudes label) just as Covid-19
don’t mean much to a was upending the world.
hungry teen with a dream, Maybe you, too, were
and Kehlani shouldered stuck inside, sitting in
through shady industry your feels as a pandemic
deals and homelessness left folks lonely, afraid
before AGT host Nick and detached from all we
Cannon became a mentor, knew—and here came an
helping put a roof over album that made space for
her head and funding the all of the languishing and
studio time that allowed horniness and misery and,
.HKODQLWRUHFRUGKHU¿UVWPL[WDSH¶V&ORXG ultimately, the healing that comes after loss.
With her sweet, bubbly tunes that toed the line between Nearly a year after the album’s release, Kehlani has found
frothy pop and buttery R&B, Kehlani made the kind of music a peace that once seemed impossible. The world is still fucked
WKDWUHPLQGHGXVZK\ZH¿UVWIHOOLQORYHZLWK:KLWQH\0DULDK up, but she’s at joy in a way that is immediately apparent when
and Brandy back in the day. Her 2015 mixtape, You Should Be her warm giggle echoes through my phone. She’s calling from
Here, broke her to mainstream audiences, and a record deal with her home in Simi Valley, which she bought during the pandemic
Atlantic and a Grammy nomination added to her rising stock in out of a desire to escape the noise of Los Angeles and build a
the industry. But as Kehlani’s star ascended, the spotlight on her commune for her tribe. Hearing the gleeful energy coming out of
SHUVRQDOOLIHLQWHQVL¿HG6KHZDVRQHRIDIHZTXHHUZRPHQLQ her nearly two-year-old daughter in the background, I can’t help
pop music, and her romantic relationships and preference for but feel a sense of pride thinking about how far she has come
unrestrained vulnerability became fodder for online bullies. IURPZKHQ,¿UVWPHWKHULQ6KH¶VJRWWHQRXWRIWKHGDUNQHVV
that has clouded her for so long and is recording new music from a place
of newfound happiness. Though she’s tight-lipped about what shape the
new music she’s working on will take (A mixtape? An EP? An album?),
Kehlani is certain it’s the best music she’s made yet. And as usual, she’s
ready to reveal all.
Q1: It Was Good Until It Wasn’t was one of 2020’s most critically acclaimed
albums. What sort of impact has that had on you? It really because it’s a really crazy time. It’s honestly a very privileged
showed me a lot about my ability to create in times when we thing to even be able to speak about the pandemic in this light.
were told we wouldn’t know what was going on: We don’t know
when the album can come out, and we don’t know about videos. Q5: Your fans have such an intense connection with your music.
It showed me that I can create in my backyard. I can create in How do you balance their expectations with your creative desires?
my garage. My music can reach these levels that are critically I just try to remember that, at the end of the day, I’m the only
acclaimed, with people being really shocked—like, “Whoa, she one left to face my own decisions, and self-betrayal feels way
really did create value.” [It Was Good] pushed me to a huge limit, worse than disapproval from strangers. I could completely betray
and that showed me more about myself, and more about my art. myself and make things my fans are obsessed with. Meanwhile,
More than even the critical acclaimed-ness. I’m over here itching to try new styles, itching to try new things.
If I just put out what they want me to, then at the end of the day
Q2: Do you feel pressure to constantly create and release music? I’m going to feel worse because I’m going to be haunted by that.
People always want more. They consume at such a high rate. I So I’d rather bite the bullet and put something out there I was
fully understand that, so the only pressure I can apply is self- UHDOO\H[FLWHGWRPDNH7KRVHZKRDUHPHDQWWRORYHLWZLOO¿QG
imposed. I’m blessed to be able to make so much music. Anybody it. Some of my favorite songs I’ve ever written—a lot of my core
who knows me knows that work is what I love to do. If I’m not at younger fans who might have come to me for the mainstream
the studio, I’m home, completely focused on my baby. Then she R&B songs didn’t understand them. Fast-forward a couple years
comes with me to the studio. I don’t feel outside pressure to create DQGWKH\¶UHOLNH³2ND\,JHWµ%XWWHUÀ\¶QRZ,ORYHµ%XWWHUÀ\¶´
and release; I just love creating and releasing. People who get it will get it. People who don’t, don’t.

Q3: Much of your work has been created as you went through Q6: What do you do when you feel stuck creatively? You can’t
personal heaviness. What is force it. Art is an alchemy and a
inspiring the next Kehlani project? medium shift, and you don’t force
I’ve always got something up a medium shift. If you’re sitting at
my sleeve. I have taken this "All of a sudden, I got your altar and nothing’s coming
opportunity during quarantine to up for you, you don’t force the
go extremely inward, cracking these mom hips. I got spirits to talk. You might leave an
down on my spiritual journey offering. You might say a prayer.
and spiritual self and enforcing this mom sensuality and You might light a candle. You
boundaries I never had. I have a might light some herbs. You don’t
WKHUDSLVW¿QDOO\ZKR,DEVROXWHO\ force the message to come to you;
love, and I have a routine of
grown-woman attitude that’s just not how it works. So
getting up and praying. I’m in in those times when I feel stuck,
this consistent, deep connection and this in-touch-ness I might leave an offering for my
inwardly that I don’t feel like I’ve art. That means I might go watch
ever had. I thought I had it. When with my body that I nev- DFODVVLF¿OP,PLJKWWDNHDZDON
you’re a spiritual person and you or take a break and not think about
¿QDOO\¿QGWKHUHDOGHHSURXWHWR er had before." music at all. I might go listen to
commit to, you always end up a style of music I don’t normally
being like, “Oh, I really thought listen to—something that will
I was doing the work before.” feed me rather than force it out of
Now that I’m really doing the work, I’m like, “Oh, man, I was me. I think about it the same way I think about spirits.
just carrying a bunch of crystals in my pockets.” The new music
,¶YH EHHQ PDNLQJ LV MXVW D UHÀHFWLRQ RI D KHDOWK\ VHOI KHDOWK\ Q7: You’ve talked about leaving L.A. and starting a farm and
love for the self, healthy love with spirit, healthy love—healthy learning to live off the land. What are some of your favorite foods
everything around me. [The music] sounds really refreshing. It to cook? Right now, I’ve been on such a soup kick. I’ve been
feels really refreshing. It feels grown. trying to be on this no-waste kick. I feel like as passionate as I
am about the world and people, it’s very hypocritical of me to
Q4: How has your approach to songwriting shifted? In the be a wasteful person while caring this much. I live with a couple
beginning of my career it was very, “I have to keep the lessons. people, so we run through things pretty fast. But there always
I have to push the self-love, push the young kid coming up and seems to be that time every two weeks when things are about
they can’t tell me shit.” I went through all the phases. It was to go bad and we have to cook them. My favorite thing to do is
like, coming-of-age love songs. And then it was young girl just throw everything—all the vegetables—in a pot with some
empowerment. And then It Was Good Until It Wasn’t came, and I fucking vegetable broth and whatever spices are calling out to
¿QDOO\OHDUQHGKRZWRZULWHZLWKVRPHGHSWKDERXWVDGGHUWKLQJV me and make a yummy-ass vegetable soup. It’s the best way to
I always wrote my way out of sadness with uplifting angles, but eliminate having a big-ass throw-away vegetable pile at the end
It Was Good Until It Wasn’t taught me to alchemize my sorrow. of the week.
The new music is not sad. I’m just not sad. I don’t feel sorrow.
I’ve been very blessed for this period of time—which could’ve Q8: How did your childhood impact your approach to
gone a whole different way for me—to actually have taken me in motherhood? Having my child surrounded by me and her dad,
a very positive direction. I don’t take that lightly for one moment, but also so much love from other people, is super important,

32

MAY 2024
because I always had family around. My aunt raised me, but I also got to keep going. And you can’t let anybody think they got you
had my cousins and my other aunties and two dogs. They tried to down so bad that you quit.” As trapped as I felt and as much as
make sure I got lots of social engagement from my family that I was like, “Fuck this. I hate everyone,” I am really grateful that
made me feel full all the time. There was always music playing everyone woke me up to those thoughts and not only pushed me,
in the house. At night, when any of us couldn’t sleep, we would but also gave me this safety net to let me know I’m never going
go take a drive around the lake in Oakland and go see the lights. to fall that hard again. That was the most trapped. But pressure
Or simple things like waking up on Sunday morning and having makes diamonds, and you can only have light—true light—after
cartoons and art projects. My aunt was really awesome and super, darkness goes.
super, super fun. I’m carrying that into parenthood, knowing
that kids don’t need perfect parents—they need happy parents. Q10: What about personally? Personally, the most trapped I’ve
The things we carry with us as adults are memories of joy, so I ever felt was probably the cycle of abuse in [a past] relationship.
consciously create joyful moments in the house for her to carry Just feeling like, “I know better, so why can’t I do better?” It’s this
throughout her life. weird, rabbit-hole cycle of, like, “Am I being stupid?” But also,
“How do I change things? Can I even change it? Do I have the
Q9: You have been in the spotlight for almost a third of your life. strength to change this? What do I do?” That’s psychologically
When have you felt the most trapped professionally? I’ve always the cycle of abuse. Once you’re out of it or when you’re looking
seen such freedom, because I center my freedom. Everybody from the outside, it seems like it’s so simple to get up and leave.
kind of allows me to do what I do. But back when everything was But when you’re in it, it’s a whole other experience.
going on in 2016, I was like, “What if I just want to quit and run
away?” And everybody was like, “Nah, you made it this far. You Q11: How did getting out of those situations shift your outlook on
 I went into the booth and I just kept saying, “Do I got you way
too open to be open?” People were like, “Whoa, are you talking
about what I think you’re talking about?” And I’m like, “Yeah,
I’m really trying to make the most beautiful, polyamorous song
there is.” I’m trying to talk about the technicalities of an open
relationship and just fucking be real about how I feel about it. And
your life and career? It told me I am capable of anything, and my putting those harmonies together was just super fun.
heart is never going to steer me to the wrong place as long as I’m
listening to the correct side of it. And things are better on the other Q14: What’s the hardest part of fame? I’ve had a hard lens on
side. There is grass waiting for you on the other side, but you have me since I was, like, 13 years old. Everyone you meet has some
to jump off the porch to get to it. That was a fear that stopped me opinion on you, whether it’s, p“I don’t care for her,” “I really care
for a long time. It’s like, “I’ve really got to kick myself off the for her,” “I don’t care to care for her,” “I’ve heard of her,” “I think
SRUFK´1RZ,FDQOHDSRIIWKHSRUFK1RZ,FDQÀ\RIIWKHSRUFK she looks funny.” I sometimes can’t walk into a room with a fresh
slate, and it gives me a little bit of anxiety because I want to be a
Q12: You’ve always been incredibly transparent, but what’s part of these community-based things, and I want to be in these
something you’ve never revealed in an interview? Something I’ve spaces, and I want to participate in things and experience things
never revealed in an interview? Hmmm. I’m currently looking for as a 25-year-old girl. I often feel like, “Damn, I’m going to walk
DGRXODFHUWL¿FDWLRQSURJUDP7KHRQH,¶PZDLWLQJIRULVFORVHG in there and it’s going to be a thousand different energies sent
until the spring. I’m really anxious to take it, and I’m trying to my way because of people already holding these little pockets of
¿JXUH RXW KRZ WR QDYLJDWH ZDQWLQJ WR EHFRPH D IXOOVSHFWUXP energy for me before they’ve even met me.”
doula while being an R&B singer—or a singer in general. I should
stop limiting myself to the word “R&B.” I guess I’ve also never Q15: What’s the easiest? The easiest part of fame is having the
revealed that I don’t consider myself an R&B artist. ability to do something important. I’ve had friends who needed
WR¿QG>VWHPFHOO@GRQRUV7KH\OHGDFDPSDLJQDQGJRWVRPDQ\
Q13: Which of your records was the most effortless to record? A people signed on, but I have the ability to say, p“Look, we need
moment for me that was so beautiful was “Open (Passionate).” a bunch of people to donate their samples and take a swab test

34

MAY 2024
 35

MAY 2024
and send it in to be the match,” and [get more people to sign on] became a mom; I just became sexier. I was this quirky little person
VRDORWRIRWKHUSHRSOHFDQ¿QGPDWFKHVDQGSRWHQWLDOGRQRUV$W before—not super in touch with myself, a super tomboy. Then I
the press of a button, I can tell millions of people something very became a mom, and all of a sudden I got these mom hips. I got
important, and they can take part in it if they want to. You can this mom sensuality and grown-woman attitude and in-touch-ness
make beautiful things happen really, really quickly. with my body that I never had before. You really fucking get to
know your body when you birth. When you get pregnant, you
Q16: 'H¿QHPDVFXOLQLW\DQGIHPLQLQLW\IRU\RXDQGZKDWGLGLW become a fucking universe and a portal. So I think motherhood
WDNH IRU \RX WR DUULYH DW WKRVH GH¿QLWLRQV" I’ve discovered that has made me this insane sex symbol even to myself.
I’ve run from a lot of femininity. I was way more comfortable in
a more masculine space. I feel more masculine when I am in my Q19: So many people were telling you about the quarantine sex
stillness and I’m grounded in a quiet, contemplative mode. I feel they were having to songs from It Was Good Until It Wasn’t. I have
most feminine when I’m being the mother of my house. I also to ask, what are some of your go-to sex jams? Oh, this is so funny.
feel my femininity when I take time for self-care—when I take I don’t like songs with words when I have sex, because I feel it’s
UHDOO\EHDXWLIXOEDWKVZKHUH,WKURZVRPHÀRZHUVLQDQG,GRD just the wrong— I don’t like people to talk to me too much unless
hair mask and take time oiling my body in the mirror and saying it’s really natural. If I hear, p“Whose is it? What’s my name? Blah,
how beautiful I feel. My femininity makes me feel soft and gentle blah, blah,” I’ll be like, “Shut up! I don’t know why you’re doing
and tender and careful in a different way than my masculinity this. It’s uncomfortable.” Like, I’m about to fall out of whatever
makes me feel. I’m trying not to let it fall into the gender norms PRRG , ZDV LQ 6R , OLNH WR OLVWHQ WR WKHVH OR¿ EHDW SOD\OLVWV
of feminine and masculine, but for me it does a tiny bit. But I also They’re so nice and it transforms it to a whole other world.
DPYHU\ÀXLGLQERWKRIWKRVHVHWWLQJV
Q20: What does joy look or feel like for you? Joy feels like when
Q17: When do you feel the sexiest? I feel the sexiest when I’m you know there’s absolutely nothing you would change about a
really bare—when I’m taking extra time to oil up after my bath moment and there’s nothing you could change to make you any
and put essential oils into my shea butter. For me, sexy is very more joyous. Like, m“Even the way the sun is coming through the
internal. It’s in the comfort and the feeling—not when do I look window while I’m making breakfast, and the way my daughter
most sexy, but when do I feel scrumptious? When do I feel like, is stomping around the kitchen cracking up, and this song that’s
m“Oh, somebody could just come lick me from my head to my playing is perfect and she’s singing along, and my puppy is
toe right now. That’s how fucking good I smell, and that’s how sunbathing and the plants in the kitchen just got watered so they’re
moisturized I am.” That’s when I feel sexy. ÀRXULVKLQJ´(YHU\VLQJOHPRPHQWRIWKHGD\LVMXVWSHUIHFW

Q18: How does it feel to be a sex symbol? I hope people know

being a mom doesn’t make you less sexy. Being a mom is the
sexiest thing ever. I think something happened to me when I
Novelist
Paul Beatty
Is Making
Room for The Man Booker Prize

Writers of
winner discusses his lat-
est risk-taking work, the
challenges of writing and
the power of language

Color
and literature.

BY JAMES YEH
PHOTOGRAPHY BY RYAN LOWRY
 Paul Beatty may be America’s most hilarious—and subver- head. I almost don’t want to talk about it. That’s the fun
sive—writer. In September, the Los Angeles native’s daring part, that’s the challenging part. It all goes together.
fourth novel, The Sellout, was short-listed for the prestigious
2016 Man Booker Prize. The gleefully unhinged satire follows PLAYBOY: You use so many incredible, gleefully
the misadventures of one Bonbon Me, an urban weed and wa- twisted phrases and neologisms—“Afro-agrarian,” “Al-
termelon farmer whose father, a prominent psychologist and lah ak-open bar,” “languid bojangle,” to name just a
“Nigger Whisperer,” is gunned down by the LAPD. With the few—that are as thrilling as they are unsettling, and that
settlement money, Bonbon reinstitutes segregation, acquires an RIWHQPDNH\RXODXJKDQGÀLQFKDWWKHVDPHWLPH:KDW
HOGHUO\ VODYH DQG ODQGV KLPVHOI VWRQHG EHIRUH D EDIÀHG 6X- audience did you have in mind when you were writing?
preme Court. BEATTY: It’s about the dissonance. The word nigger is
“It all starts with the language,” says the 54-year-old author in this. The book is about what you can do and what you
ZKRZDVDOVRWKH¿UVWHYHU*UDQG3RHWU\6ODPFKDPSLRQLQ can say. [When I write] I’m doing some calculus, but I do
1990). “That’s where all the latticework is for me.” Indeed, the it with every word. It’s not about what’s on the page, it’s
thrill of The Sellout lies not only in Beatty’s delirious conceit about me and you having the conversation. The exegesis
but also in his virtuoso riffs that take bull’s-eye aim at race, of the whole thing. I think there’s so much fun in not
class, pop culture and propriety in our supposedly postracial understanding. I heard Marlon James say it’s not his job
America. to solve the mystery, it’s his job to render the mystery.
“I get nervous when things don’t make people nervous,” And I love that.
Beatty says. “A lot of writers of color feel there are certain I think about writing to this best friend who doesn’t
directions they have to take: what your point of view should really exist, or to this group of best friends. I just have
be, who can do what, how positive it has to be. Somebody’s to trust that somebody will get it. I don’t want to make
always going to tell you what it means to be a black writer, it easy. It’s not like I’m trying to make it hard, but for
what responsibilities you have. Just trying to create some space me it’s not easy. For me it’s an age-old issue, between
is important to me.” commercial and acceptability. I’m just trying to do what
And that’s exactly what Beatty does, obliterating the I want to do and get what I want to say out there.
boundaries of what is funny, what is profane and what is PLAYBOY: What is it about the black-owned Chinese
MXVWVRVDGDQGXQ¿[DEOHWKDWZHFDQRQO\ODXJKWRNHHS restaurant that makes it the “holy grail of racial equal-
from crying. There’s a bit of truth in every good joke, ity”?
and perhaps in that truth we are able, after the laughs BEATTY: How come you can’t have LeRoy’s Twin
subside, to better see the world and ourselves in it. Dragon? It speaks to possibilities.
PLAYBOY: At what point will you feel like you’ve suc-
PLAYBOY: How do you deal with the challenges of be- ceeded in effecting change?
ing a writer? BEATTY: It’s something that I write about a little bit.
BEATTY: I don’t really believe there’s a point to any- When I think about change, I’m one of those people who
thing, a purpose—not to the point that things don’t make are like, “Oh, nothing ever changes.” How people talk
a difference or don’t have DERXW FKDQJH DQG SURJUHVV , ¿QG UHDOO\ GLVWXUELQJ ,W¶V
meaning, but I just don’t like, “Obama’s president and therefore the world is bet-
care whether it does. So I ter.” Yeah, I can’t really answer that question. You get
think that makes it a little little things, like I got a letter from a kid—I’m not saying
"There’s still this easier, takes a bit of the I changed him, but he was appreciative. I often think—I
pressure off. Writing’s don’t know if it’s true—my books are hard to read on a
notion that there’s hard; it’s not very fun.
Other writers will say
couple of levels. I’m appreciative. I try to be unique and
new. That’s really important to me.
the fun is in having done I was at this book event. A guy came up to me—a
only room for one it, but even then there’s pretty successful writer—and he was like, “Yeah, read-
how do you deal with the ing you when I was younger was so helpful to me be-
fucker. It’s just, recognition, whether it’s
there or not, and how do
cause I realized I could just be myself.”
When he said that to me, that’s nice. It’s just that no-
you deal with failure. It’s tion of, “How do I break out of this box?” There’s still
can we have a all a fucking challenge. this notion that there’s only room for one fucker. I think
PLAYBOY: One of the people really feel that, whether it’s true or not. It’s just,
range? That’s all great pleasures of read-
ing The Sellout is its lan-
can we have a range? That’s all we’re asking for. The
change is, the more people who are doing shit, even if I
guage. It actually seems think 90 percent of it is bad, that’s still good. Even in that
we’re asking for." like you’re having a lot simple way, if there’s an alternative voice, or an alterna-
of fun, more fun that the tive tone, I think that’s good. We need these things.
average writer.
BEATTY: You can just
do everything with language, you know what I mean?
That’s what keeps me charged. How does this read; re-
ally just trying to capture the sentiment that I had in my

39

MAY 2024
Media Wunderkind
Noor Tagouri
Makes a Forceful
Case for Modesty BY ANNA DEL GAIZO
PHOTOGRAPHY BY KATE WARREN
 For anyone with preconceived ideas about women who choose to are re-empowered, they realize their own story is powerful and
wear a headscarf every day, Noor Tagouri is disorienting. She’s they begin to share. It’s incredibly rewarding and can even help
simply not what you expect: a 22-year-old journalist (she likes to enlighten or save others.
call herself a storyteller) on the verge of becoming this country’s PLAYBOY: How have you dealt with backlash, especially in our
¿UVWKLMDEZHDULQJQHZVDQFKRU current political climate?
As of June, she’s an on-air reporter for Newsy, where she pro- TAGOURI: If by backlash you mean hate and criticism, I don’t
vokes the sort of confusion we could use right now, in part by mak- read or pay attention to any of it. It’s just negative energy and
ing a surprisingly bold case for modesty. As a badass activist with unhealthy. I make sure to keep a great circle of people around me
a passion for demanding change and asking the right questions, who keep me grounded. Whether it’s at work or at home, the peo-
accompanied by beauty-ad-campaign looks, Tagouri forces us to ple who have my best interest at heart voice their concerns and
ask ourselves why we have such their critiques, and I work on them. Besides that, I just do the best
a hard time wrapping our minds I can to not worry about people who get upset because they don’t
around a young woman who like something that I wear or say.
The reporter chats consciously covers her head and 7KH¿UVWVWRU\,GLGZLWK1HZV\ZDVRQ0LGGOH(DVWHUQDQG
about the state of won’t take no for an answer. North African Americans being considered “white” on the U.S.
A West Virginia native and census and how that might change on the 2020 census. I referred
journalism today and ¿UVWJHQHUDWLRQ /LE\DQ $PHUL- to it as “White Without the Privilege.” There was a ton of backlash
her effort to break can, Tagouri graduated from
college at the age of 20. In 2012,
on Facebook from people who didn’t like the story. It was comical
seeing people telling me to “go back home” when in fact, I was
through as the first her #LetNoorShine campaign born in West Virginia. My team insisted that I never read the com-
went viral. Her 2015 TEDx talk ments, so I stopped. The thing is, that story was based on facts.
‘hijabi’ news anchor in advocated unapologetic individ- I constantly remind myself to just do the work I believe in and
American TV history uality, and her YouTube chan- ignore the angry people behind computer screens.
nel draws tens of thousands of PLAYBOY: At what point will you feel like you’ve succeeded in
viewers. More recently, she col- effecting change?
laborated with streetwear brand TAGOURI: I will have succeeded in effecting change when all
Lis’n Up Clothing on a fashion line that includes a Jean-Michel girls realize they can do anything they want without having to
Basquiat–inspired sweatshirt. Half the purchase proceeds go to VDFUL¿FHZKRWKH\DUHDVDSHUVRQ,PD\GUHVVDOLWWOHGLIIHUHQW²
3URMHFW )XWXUHV DQ DQWLKXPDQWUDI¿FNLQJ RUJDQL]DWLRQ $PHUL- I’m a reporter who happens to wear a head scarf and I live in my
cans have a long way to go when it comes to how we regard Mus- hoodie—but being a story teller, motivational speaker, entrepre-
lims, but with Tagouri burning down stereotypes and blazing new neur and unapologetically myself has opened so many doors for
paths, we’re a healthy stride closer. thousands of people. I recently had a mom come up to me and tell
me that her daughter is in the 6th grade and had just started wear-
PLAYBOY:<RXUJRDOLVWREHFRPHWKH¿UVWKLMDELDQFKRURQFRP- ing the hijab. She shared how a lot of the other girls tease her and
mercial U.S. television. What’s the biggest challenge you face in put her down because of the hijab. She went on to tell me that her
your work? daughter watches all of my videos and every time she gets picked
TAGOURI: The biggest challenge I face as a storyteller is the on, she pulls up my Instagram or tells them to “google Noor Tag-
process of getting people to trust you enough to tell their stories. ouri and then talk to me.” Those are the moments that hit me. And
Our society has seemingly become so desensitized to violence, I always remember Maya Angelou’s quote, “I come as one, but I
DEXVHGHDWKUDSHDQGWUDXPD,¿QGWKDWSHRSOHZKRJRWKURXJK stand as 10,000.”
these traumatic experiences have a hard time trusting reporters. PLAYBOY: What is your call to action to readers?
Just a few days ago, I had an anonymous artist tell me he doesn’t TAGOURI: Live your life as your truest self and encourage others
do interviews because he doesn’t want reporters to “take [his] to do the same! Support each other. We have to live for the 10,000
words and run with it”. who have come before us, who have made it easier for us to get to
People want to be valued and heard. Their experiences are so where we are today, but also for the 10,000 coming after us, so we
personal and they want their voices to come through in a story. can continue to break barriers and glass ceilings and reclaim our
It’s a process, but building that level of trust takes time, effort and power. Do good, stay fearless and remember that everything you
patience. I’m actually struggling with a few powerful stories right want is just outside your comfort zone.
now because he people involved are still suffering. Unfortunately
they’re having a hard time being okay with someone sharing their
story. Which is totally understandable, but it’s a process.
PLAYBOY: How have you confronted that?
TAGOURI: Being able to share in the vulnerability of the people I "Being a hijabi Muslim
talk to helps me gain their trust. I recently did a documentary titled
The Trouble They’ve Seen: The Forest Haven Story, about one of woman helps me gain
the worst cases of institutional and medical abuse in the history of
the U.S. When I decided to do the piece, I knew I needed to talk trust. I say, ‘I know
to people close to the case—someone who lived in the institution,
a parent, their family members, an employee and the lawyers in-
what it’s like to be
volved. It took a few visits with each person to get them to agree
to do an interview.
misrepresented in the
To be honest, I think being a hijabi Muslim woman, helped media. I won’t do that
me gain that trust. I know what it’s like to have the narrative of
our community be skewed and exploited in the media. I was like, to you.’ "
“Hey, I know what it’s like to be misrepresented in the media.
I won’t do that to you. I want to tell your story because it’s im-
SRUWDQWDQGGHVHUYHVMXVWLFH´,NQRZ¿UVWKDQGWKDWRQFHSHRSOH
 GO RGEO U S
Denise Leitão
Rocha Instagram
ɩÌÐĊðĮÐīďÆì­ȘďťÆð­ă
Photography byLďìĊĊÐ#ÐZăðŒÐðī­ɳɩþďìĊĊÐīЭă
PR­Æ­ķZăðŒÐīɳɩÆ­Æ­ķďăðŒÐīɁ

43

MAY 2024
44
Tell us about the moment you
found out you were going to be
featured in the magazine. It was a
very special moment. I had already
been on the cover of Playboy
Magazine in 2012 in Brazil. When
I found out that I would have the
opportunity to appear again on
the cover of the same magazine, I
was very happy, because the first
one was very important in Brazil.

What was your initial reaction? I

was very excited to participate
again, as my fans asked me a lot,
I posed 12 years ago and as I have
changed a lot physically, it will be a
very gratifying and expected sur-
prise for them.

Can you share your favorite pho-

to or magazine spread and why it
has special meaning to you? My
favorite photo was one where
I'm wearing glasses, looking firm
and serene at the camera, hold-
ing one of my breasts and my bi-
kini half down and the other hand
holding the net. This photo has a
special meaning, as it represents
my strong personality, of commu-
nicating with people by looking
them in the eyes and being myself.

When you're not working, what

helps you decompress and re-
lax? I love training to relax. I also
love traveling and enjoying the achieved some dreams, but my big- What is the worst thing a man can
beach. gest dream is to visit most of the do to completely turn you off? Not
countries in the world. having a sense of humor and treat-
What's the weirdest fan encoun- ing a waiter badly.
ter you've ever had? The strangest What's the weirdest beauty tip or
encounter was when a fan asked trick you've learned? When I fin- What advice would you give as-
me to take off my shoes and take a ish doing my nails and need them piring models? Always seek to im-
photo next to my feet. to dry as quickly as possible, I dip prove yourself in ways that lead to
them in ice water for 3 minutes and a modeling career, and never give
What’s the best “wardrobe mal- they come out dry. up on “no” until you get what you
function” story you can laugh want.
about right now? There was one If you were stranded on a desert
time when I went out to dinner and island with just one accessory, Thank you for taking the time to
the button on my dress was wrong what would it be? I would take a speak with us. Do you have any last
and at the entrance to the restau- vibrator lol. words for our readers? Thank you
rant it opened and I wasn't wearing to Playboy readers, I really hope
any underwear and I only realized it What's your guilty pleasure you like this wonderful essay that
when I sat at the table. snack? A hot Philadelphia, a Japa- I lovingly created for you. And also
nese food that is fried in Brazil. As thank the thousands of fans who
What are some of your biggest I don't eat a lot of fried food, when have been with me during these 12
dreams that you hope to achieve? I'm off my diet I like to eat this or a years of media.
During my life, I have already good pizza.

47

MAY 2024
 51

MAY 2024
Frontwoman
Laura Jane Grace
Proves That
the Personal Is
Always Political

The punk rock trailblazer

on fighting for what she BY JONAH BAYER

believes in PHOTOGRAPHY BY RYAN LOWRY

Laura Jane Grace has been minutely scrutinized since backlash, but on praise, too. You just have to take it
she started the band Against Me! as an anarchist- all with a grain of salt. It’s nice when people say good
inspired solo project in 1997. Punk purists frothed as things about you, but it means just as much as when
the Gainesville, Florida group’s sound evolved from people say bad things about you, and that shouldn’t
OR¿ IRON WR IXOORQ DQWKHPLF SRS SXQN OHDGLQJ WR D determine why you do something or what you get out
major-label record deal in 2007. (These days, the band of something or whether or not it’s successful to you.
releases music on its own Total Treble imprint.) Fans PLAYBOY: Especially in punk. People can get
and critics stopped and stared when Grace came out worked up about a band signing to a label or some-
as transgender in 2012—an event with few precedents thing like that and then you get a little older and won-
in the testosterone-drenched world of punk rock. This der what you were so mad about.
November, two months after the release of the seventh LJG: [Laughs] But it all seemed so important at the
Against Me! album, Shape Shift With Me, Grace will time.
cap off her odyssey so far with a memoir titled Tranny: PLAYBOY: Exactly.
Confessions of Punk Rock’s Most Infamous Anarchist LJG: I’ve been that way with bands. I know that some
Sellout. of the time that’s just being young, and some of the
Back in May, Grace made headlines for burning time that’s something just meaning so much to you at
KHUELUWKFHUWL¿FDWHRQVWDJHLQ1RUWK&DUROLQDWRSUR- a time in your life and fearing change. But change is
test the state’s anti-trans bathroom law. But her music inevitable.
and writing signal a more intimate strain of activ- PLAYBOY: For so long you were under the micro-
ism: Listening to Against Me! songs such as “I Was scope as far as signing to a big indie and then a major,
a Teenage Anarchist” and “True Trans Soul Rebel,” it and it seems like once you came out, that other stuff
becomes clear that Grace has always lived where the became way less of a big deal.
personal and the political collide. Her painfully hon- LJG: I like to hope that when I came out it gave peo-
est, deeply human way of articulating that friction is ple some sense that the decisions I made were deci-
WKH GH¿QLWLRQ RI *UDFH$QG VKH VWLOO EHOLHYHV LQ WKH sions I made because that’s the way I thought and felt
scene that has sustained her, even as it has threatened about what I had to do to survive. Those weren’t al-
WRGURZQKHULQH[SHFWDWLRQV³7KHLQÀXHQFHWKDWSXQN ways things that I felt like I could or even wanted to
rock has had on my life is astounding,” she says. “I just explain to other people, and that just comes back to
WKLQNPXVLFLVLQ¿QLWHO\LPSRUWDQW´ being certain why you’re doing something—thinking
for yourself and making your own decisions, not being
PLAYBOY: What’s the biggest challenge you’ve LQÀXHQFHGE\ZKDWRWKHUVH[SHFWIURP\RX$QGEHLQJ
faced in your career? prepared that sometimes you’ll disappoint people or
LJG: That’s a good soft one to start out with. [Laughs] sometimes people are not going to get it, but in order to
Well, I don’t know if it’s clichéd or whatever, but the VXUYLYH\RXKDYHWREHFRQ¿GHQWLQ\RXUVHOI
challenge is longevity. It’s your biggest hurdle to keep PLAYBOY: %XUQLQJ \RXU ELUWK FHUWL¿FDWH RQVWDJH
it all together, whether that’s keeping a band together was a very tangible example of someone really stand-
or even keeping your emotional state together, to con- ing behind her beliefs.
tinually remember that the reason you do what you do LJG: You have to walk the talk, you know? For me,
is because you love playing music and not become bit- I don’t have a separation in my life in what I do with
ter or jaded. That’s not an easy thing to do, you know? the band and a home life. I mean, it’s not like I change
It’s not an easy thing to be a band for 20 years by any into a different person or suddenly start thinking about
means. things differently when I’m in show mode versus when
PLAYBOY: How do you think you’ve managed to I’m at home mode. It all has to be an extension of your
keep it together for so long? life, and the way you approach making music should
LJG: You just have to work for it; it has to be worth be the way you approach living your life, you know?
LWIRU\RX¿JKWIRU,¶YHVSHQWDORWRIWLPHZRQGHULQJ PLAYBOY:+RZZRXOG\RXVD\\RXUQHZERRN¿J-
going through my second divorce, if I’m able to be ures into everything you’ve said here? Is it scary or
in a committed relationship, and when I asked myself exciting waiting for it to come out?
that question I’m always like, I’ve been committed to LJG: It’s both a relief and totally fucking terrifying,
James [Bowman, guitarist in Against Me!] and com- you know? I try to be really polite when people come
mitted to doing this band, so I know I have that ability. up to me and say they’re excited to read my book. I’m
But just like a marriage, you have to really be willing like, “Thank you, thank you, awesome, yeah,” but
WRVDFUL¿FH inside I’m thinking Oh god, I’m so scared of people
PLAYBOY: How do you deal with backlash, which reading my book.
you’ve dealt with since day one with this band? PLAYBOY: I’m sure you’ve changed so many peo-
LJG: Right, and I think there’s been times where I’ve ple’s perspectives by putting this stuff out there, even
dealt with it poorly and times where I’ve been able to if they don’t tell you about it personally.
manage it. I’m thankful for those experiences because LJG: Sure. But the moments when people do person-
I think it has given me good perspective—not just on ally tell you—that really does mean a lot.

53

MAY 2024
Iconoclast
Is Returning Skateboarding
to Its Obscenely Awesome Roots
The famed skater chats about his near- In 2009, pro skateboarder Jason Dill had to call 911 on himself. He was
throwing up blood all over his New York City apartment and suffering
death experience, redefining the skate shop from a gastric hemorrhage. The Jameson, Vicodin and Percocet cock-
business and his role on Netflix’s Love WDLOVKDG¿QDOO\WDNHQWKHLUWROO
“I didn’t think I’d even survive,” says Dill, who now stars on the
1HWÀL[VHULHV/RYH³:KHQ,¶PRQWKHVHW,¶PTXLHWDVDPRXVH,¶P
just so blown away and thankful I’m there. And the last thing I ever
BY ROBERT BRINK PHOTOGRAPHY BY RYAN LOWRY wanted was the responsibility of owning a company that people expect
more from—because owning a company is a pain in the ass.”
In 2013, after kicking the pills and spending more time on his
board, Dill ditched his longtime sponsor, Alien Workshop—one of the
most popular skateboarding companies ever—and walked away from
a partial-ownership offer to co-found board brand Fuck- cause it’s a fucking pain in the ass! When people expect
ing Awesome, an extension of his self-funded apparel side more, they expect it fucking tomorrow. If you came out
project. with some shit yesterday, they wanna see the new shit next
In doing so, Dill dumped a bucket of ice on the once- week. It’s just ridiculous day in and day out, but I suppose
countercultural world of skateboarding, which in the pre- it’s like having a kid. I take care of it. I love it. I can’t let
vious 17 years had devolved into a G-rated parody of itself it go to a community college, you know? I gotta raise it
to appease moms and malls, and woke it the fuck up. The right. [laughs]
exodus of Alien’s riders to Fucking Awesome was swift. PLAYBOY: Skateboarding is a trend-oriented sport.
It’s now one of the top-selling and most knocked-off com- Things are hot for a year or three and then they’re not.
panies in boards and streetwear, despite its provocative We’ve all seen the shelf life some skate brands have.
graphics, null social media presence and label that pre- DILL: I’m now past my third year of FA. I’m proud of
vents mass retail saturation. what we’ve done. If you are a company making stuff,
you need to have it in the back of your head that, hey, I
PLAYBOY: When Fucking Awesome launched as a skate- might have to kill this thing one day for the greater good
board brand in 2013, it wasn’t uncommon to hear industry so it doesn’t look like a bunch of bullshit. Imagine if Mark
folk say, “They’re never going to make it. They’ll never Gonzales got to end his skate company, Blind. How would
get into mall shops with that name.” we look at it today? Imagine if Mark had made some deal
DILL: You see where their brains went immediately? with Steve Rocco, the owner of his distributor early on,
That’s what’s wrong with the industry—all this bullshit like, “I’ll totally do this, but when I think it’s time that
people talk. I’m sorry because some of them are my this is done, I get to put out an ad that says, ‘It’s done. We
friends, but with their two-and-a-half car garage and killed it. It’s over. Thank you.’” I feel a lot of people think
two and a half kids in their suburb of Portland, of course when you start a company, you just ride it until someone
they’re not going to be like, “Let’s go nuts!” They’d lose comes along and buys you. That’s not the fucking case
WKHLU IXFNLQJ MREV /XFNLO\ ,¶P QRW ¿JKWLQJ WR NHHS P\ here. I’d rather it die than look bad.
two and a half kids in the latest expensive daycare. I don’t PLAYBOY: Killed at the peak.
give a fuck. No family, no car and no mortgage payments Yeah, like Michael Jordan did, until he played baseball
means I just shoot this shit out of my fucking soul. and came back and played for the fucking Wizards. It was
PLAYBOY: Die-hards have criticized the skateboarding like, c’mon, dude! I know I didn’t invent this way of think-
industry for pandering to the mainstream so much and be- ing, but I feel it serves me best.
coming so non-offensive that a word like “fucking” seems PLAYBOY: <RX DOVR VWDU RQ -XGG$SDWRZ¶V KLW 1HWÀL[
shocking. That’s what’s so scary. If it were 1993, no one series, Love. How did that come about?
would bat an eye. You disrupted the entire industry. About a year and a half ago I was in Los Angeles and
DILL: I’d be lying if I said I wasn’t pleased that things VDZP\IULHQG>79ZULWHU@/HVOH\$U¿QRQWKHVWUHHW6KH
were disrupted, because I am. I most certainly wasn’t was like, “Hey, I’m making this television show with my
aiming for Alien Workshop to almost go out of business, boyfriend and we think you’d be good in it.” I was at point
because after being with them for 15 years, quitting was when I really needed everything to be completely spot-on
emotionally insane. But going into skate shops these days, with FA—production and all that bullshit—so I was like,
looking at the wall and seeing other board brands trying “I’m not really into it. That sounds crazy. I don’t think I
really hard is great, because none of them were trying this have time.” She told me, “I knew you’d say that, but it’s
hard before and I know that’s a direct result of FA. Any- -XGG$SDWRZDQGLW¶VJXDUDQWHHGWZRVHDVRQVIRU1HWÀL[
one who thinks that statement is over the top, go ahead Will you audition?”
and think that but you can also eat my butt, because it’s And I fucking did. Before I knew it they were asking
the truth. I see people bite us over and over again and it’s me to come to Sony Pictures and do a reading in front of
ridiculous because they don’t even realize everything they Judd. I was so fucking nervous. It was wild because I’m
bite. That forces me to go make something else that’s out not an actor.
of their realm because I know they won’t think of it. And The second season’s done now and I’m happy to be on
then they bite that, too. it. Everyone was really nice. All of them knowing I wasn’t
When I visit skate shops like Uprise in Chicago, Sea- an actor coming into it was just super cool because I’d do a
sons in Albany, Orchard in Boston or Exit in Philadelphia, scene with a stand-up comedian and they’d be like, “Dude
owners tell me that I helped bring skate shops back. They you’re doing good.” I’m like, “Really? All right. Good.”
feel FA brought the kids and excitement back because new
kids started coming in only asking for FA. Shit like that
is such a big compliment that I feel funny saying it back
to you.
PLAYBOY: After you were hospitalized in 2009, you kind
of disappeared from skateboarding. In your own mind, did
you ever imagine owning a respected company like FA?
DILL: No. It’s totally fucking insane. That’s why when
I’m on the set of Love I take it all in. I’m just so fucking
blown away. I didn’t think I’d survive. I really didn’t. I
never wanted my own company. Wanna know why? Be-
Indie Developer
Sean Murray
Boldly Goes Where
No Gamer Has
Gone Before

Will leaving a big-studio gig to follow his

passion and create a new type of gameplay
pay off?

BY MIKE ROUGEAU PHOTOGRAPHY BY DAVID TITLOW

Everyone dreams of being an astronaut; Sean Murray made
a game that lets you play one. This summer, the 36-year-
old’s company, Hello Games, released one of the most am-
"I am always nerv-
bitious video games in recent history: No Man’s Sky. The
JRUJHRXV VFL¿ DGYHQWXUH DOORZV SOD\HUV WR H[SORUH PRUH
than 18 quintillion planets—yes, quintillion—thanks to
ous and terrified
clever environment-generation technology. Travel to mas-
sive worlds suffused with rich colors and teeming with al-
ien creatures—then dodge galactic cops in your spacecraft.
about people get-
The Ireland-born, Australian outback–raised Murray
FUHDWHGKLV¿UVWJDPHZKHQKHZDVMXVW¿YH³0\SDUHQWV
always joke that this is all I ever wanted to do,” he says.
ting hyped about
Murray founded Hello Games in 2008 with three
friends after quitting his job at Criterion, a big studio that our game."
got bought by EA, an even bigger studio. Sick of slaving
away on blockbusters such as the Burnout series, he wanted
WRÀH[KLVFUHDWLYHPXVFOHV7RGD\WKDW¶VQRWDXQLTXHRULJLQ
story for an independent game developer, but back then, in WHUUL¿HGDERXWSHRSOHJHWWLQJK\SHGDERXWRXUJDPH,GH¿QLWHO\KDYH
the days before the Apple App Store, it was. always tried to just show great gameplay, stand on stage at E3 and
³:HZHUHVRPHRIWKH¿UVWSHRSOHWRGRWKDW´KHVD\V just play the game and be reasonably open and honest about what the
“In our minds, it wasn’t some path to success. It was more game is or what we’re doing, you know, and be open as a studio. And
like, I can’t work here anymore, and I need to go do some- when the game comes out, yeah, there will inevitably be a backlash
thing different.” of some sort, because some people have been waiting for like three
No Man’s Sky, the third release from Hello Games, years! And it’s actually really hard to wait for anything for three years
launched in August after three years of feverish buildup DQGIHHOOLNHMXVWL¿HG<RXZDQWLWWREHSHUIHFW\RXNQRZ"
among gamers obsessed with the promise of endless explo- And you’ll have seen that around lots of good games. Destiny had
ration. It’s a high-water mark for video games—and like a loads of hype around it, and then it was actually when it came out it
true artist, that’s all Murray really cares about. mildly disappointed people, which I really didn’t understand. But two
PLAYBOY spoke with Murray just before the U.S. launch years later, I’m still playing Destiny and all my friends are still play-
of No Man’s Sky; here’s what he had to say about setting ing Destiny. It does happen, you know, and it’s kind of an unfortunate
out to make an impact, dealing with fan backlash and ex- side effect of the fact that people who like video games fucking love
actly what makes Hello Games successful. video games, you know?
PLAYBOY: You weather whatever comes and then the people who
PLAYBOY: You set out to make something that you felt are still around are the ones who like it, right? So you get that positive
would have a greater impact than your earlier games. community ultimately.
MURRAY: Yes. This is hard to describe: You’re having MURRAY: Right. There is that for sure, but there’s also a thing—
this kind of midlife crisis, and you’re not actually thinking, and this is really weird. Nobody on Reddit will understand this, or on
“Oh my God, this is going to blow people away.” What Neogaf or any of those places, right, but we do play tests every now
you’re thinking is like, “I don’t know whether I’m a good and then where it’ll all be anonymous and it’ll be NDA’d and we will
programmer. I don’t know whether I would actually be ca- get people in to play our game. And it will just be like, 20 people at
pable of doing something like really different.” You know, random from people who are buying games at game stores. We just
it’s like challenging yourself. I wasn’t thinking, “This will pick people at random and get them in to play the game. Of those 20
be some crazy like commercial success” or “This will be people we will be lucky if one of them has heard of No Man’s Sky,
some big hit with people.” I was thinking, “I want to do and that’s happened like, time and time again.
something really cool that I’m excited about,” you know? And everyone forgets that. No one realizes that the majority of
And that was what drove it. people who buy games, they don’t necessarily go on game websites,
We actually, when three of us, the three others joined and the thing that is amazing for me is to watch these people play
me and we like sat in that room, the pitch to everyone was the game, and they play for three hours, say, and they think they’re
like: We have just spent a few years making Joe Danger and playing what in their mind is a sort of survival sandbox game where
we made some money from that, and we have to take that they’re trying to repair a spaceship, and they do that, and then they get
money and get it out of us—like do something crazy and in that spaceship, and they take off from that planet. And they were
burn through this and not worry about ever having com- never expecting that to happen. It blows their mind! [laughs] And
mercial success or whatever. Let’s just do something that there’s that priceless reaction where they’re turning each other around
we really enjoy for the next year and see what we get to. like, “What’s going on?!” We make the game for them as much as for
PLAYBOY: I don’t know how often you go on the subred- anyone, you know?
dit—hopefully not that often because those people are crazy. PLAYBOY: If you were going to try to be less humble, what would
I think anything that builds to this level, it’s inevitable that you say that you guys have done to get you here?
there is going to be some backlash, and No Man’s Sky is no MURRAY: We just put aside being afraid of failing, I think. At every
exception. How do you guys deal with that aspect of it? point, when we had to make a decision, we would talk about that deci-
MURRAY: [Laughs] Yeah, it’s a tough one. There’s a thing sion and somebody would point out something being risky or having
in video games, I think more than any medium, where this not been done before or being problematic, and it’s become almost a
is excitement, and excitement’s really good, but for some joke within the group: As soon as somebody points that out, that is the
reason, for some people, that turns into hype, which is a thing we’re going to go and do. As soon as somebody says, “We can’t
kind of an unrealistic, intangible level of excitement kind possibly get it ready for that date,” it’s like, “Oh no. Well, you’ve
of thing where it’s unattainable. I am always nervous and said it now. The challenge has been laid down and now we have to

58
do that.” [laughs] small, we’re self-funded, and we’re really constrained.
And I know that sounds cheesy, but that is–we had already There’s so many things that have been positive that have come
achieved like I would say mild success [with Joe Danger], and it just from that, because we’ve had to make really clever decisions, but
felt kind of empty and kind of like a failure. And we were like, I would there’s so many things where you’re like [sighing] you know, I wish
rather kind of be an actual proper failure or properly do something we could have done this, this or this to a way higher standard. And
different than how this feels right now. I don’t want this to be our there is a shot, if the community doesn’t go too crazy when it comes
normality. out, that hopefully we’re going to be able to work with them and talk
PLAYBOY: You didn’t think you’d peaked. to them, and everyone’s going to keep their heads and we’re going to
MURRAY: Yeah, like I thought—I can tell you what I thought. When continue to update the game and make it approach the higher standard
I was a kid, what made me want to get into games was reading about that I’d really like.
a guy called John Carmack, who worked at id, who’d done Quake But like, aside from that, what’s going on in the back of my head
and stuff like that. And I like, I saw him as like a great programmer, is if we weren’t on this shoestring budget, if we weren’t this tiny, tiny
right? And it would have been my dream to work in games, but I super constrained team, if we just had a little bit more, just let me
hadn’t thought I’d be good enough to do that; I thought it was only for show you what we could do. Every other studio with like 400 people,
like, for gods like John Carmack, you know? I didn’t even apply for and just like, 12 or 15 of us. For every one of us, they have our whole
jobs for ages. And then I did, and I got a job, and I felt like an impos- team size again. And like if we only had half of that, if we had a
tor. “I’m not good enough to work here,” or whatever. And then as I quarter, an eighth, there’s so many cool things we could have done.
GLG,IHOWOLNH,¿WLQ2.NLQGRIWKLQJ%XW,MXVWIHOWOLNH³,GRQ¶W PLAYBOY: Do you have a call to action for fans or players or anyone
feel like I’ve done anything.” I’d worked on a bunch of games and reading this? What would you say to people? What can they do?
they’ve done alright and stuff like that, but it didn’t feel like I’d done MURRAY::HDOOMXVWSOD\DQGEX\WKHVDPHNLQGRIWULSOH$¿UVW
anything really impactful or really worthwhile. You reach that point person shooter every year or whatever, and that’s cool, you know, that
where you question whether you were ever going to do anything like should exist for sure. But there’s so much more that games can be than
that, you know? that, and there’s so much more to get excited about. And right now
PLAYBOY: So what is the next goal? publishers think that that is all that people want, and they think that
MURRAY: I know this sounds weird again, but we’d have made this WKHDYHUDJHSOD\HULVDFWXDOO\OLNHSUREDEO\QRWWKHPRVWUH¿QHGDQG
game because we have been—and this is the thing most people don’t intelligent and well-rounded person. But I actually think, when I get
realize, because we’ve self-funded it. I think most people would as- to game shows, there’s people from wide backgrounds who are really
sume that because No Man’s Sky is a thing that most people know interesting. And them getting excited about things that are a bit differ-
about, I guess, or that some, within the gaming industry people know ent—that is the most powerful thing in the games industry.
about, you would assume that Hello Games is already in some way PLAYBOY: Yeah, more of that. More No Man’s Sky.
“well off” or well-funded or has grown. We haven’t! We’re still really MURRAY: [Laughs] No Man’s Sky 2, here we come.

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 IRRESISTIBLE
ATTRACTION

Kindly
Instagram @kindly
Photography by Josh Paul

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Happy to have you on the
cover of Playboy New Zea-
land! Can you tell us about
the photoshoot? I absolutely
loved it. It was so much fun
getting these beautiful shots
and the final results speak for
themselves.

Best place you have ever

been to in the world? The best
place I’ve ever been… hmmm…
that one is tough honestly, it’s
less about the place and more
about who you’re with. Trave-
ling with good company can make any place What makes you the ultimate partner to
seem like the best in the world. have? What makes me the ultimate part-
ner? Well, I would say that I fully support
What are some of your biggest dreams you who I am to help them be the best version
hope to achieve? I have been so blessed of themselves. I want my partner to have in-
with my career. Everything I’ve ever wanted dependence and their own happiness out-
to achieve I have made it happen. I know that side of the relationship. I am very support-
I can do anything in this world if I work hard ive and considerate.
and genuinely put forth the effort that is re-
quired. As for something I would still like to How important is sex to you in a relation-
achieve, at this point in my life, I just want to ship? I think sex and intimacy are very im-
continue to be happy. I have really created a portant parts of a relationship you need
beautiful life, and I have everything I need. these things to have a healthy balanced re-
lationship in my opinion.
What helps you decompress and relax? I
have two horses and my favorite thing to do What is your idea of a really good time?
when I’m stressed or bored is to go out to For me doing anything outside I love nature
the barn and spend time with them. It’s very and animals.
therapeutic for me. I am an animal lover.
Any word of advice to fans on the right
:KR KDV EHHQ WKH PRVW LQ³XHQWLDO SHUVRQ way to approach you? I don’t mind it at
in your life and why? I have a very diverse all just please be respectful and kind. Treat
group of friends. Every one of them inspires me how you would like to be treated. I love
me to be a better version of myself every sin- meeting people.
gle day.
Thanks for taking the time to speak to us,
How romantic are you? I don’t know that I any last words for our readers? I just would
am super romantic myself, but I do love when like to say that I am so very thankful. I’m
a man does romantic things sometimes. Girls proof that you can achieve anything if you
love flowers and girls love to be loved on. I’m are determined, consistent, and have self-
no different. discipline.

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Playboy Interview

A candid conversation with the Emmy-winning writer,

thinker, truth-teller and Detroiter who never could just
“stick to sports”
INTERVIEW BY KELLEY L. CARTER PHOTOGRAPHY BY ERIK CARTER
7KLV SDVW -DQXDU\ ZDVQ¶W WKH ¿UVW WLPH ZKLWH VXSUHPDFLVWV DQG raised largely by her mother; her father’s long absence and eventu-
Nazi sympathizers overran an American city, bringing chaos and al reemergence caused Hill no small amount of anger—though she
carnage. Those who watched their newsfeeds in abject horror on learned to turn that frustration into strength. As a student at Samuel
January 6, 2021 as domestic terrorists swarmed the Capitol might C. Mumford High School, she discovered a passion for sportswrit-
have been reminded of August 12, 2017, when a white-nationalist ing, and her ambition and talent for it took her to Michigan State
rally in Charlottesville, Virginia led to violent clashes and a deadly University’s journalism program. Hill, never shy about her home-
attack that former President Donald Trump would also condone. town pride, is an especially proud alum of Michigan State—per-
This was not an aberration, it turns out, but a harbinger of what was haps in part because it was at a 2014 alumni event that Hill met her
to come. Days after Charlottesville, Trump referred to the “very now husband, Ian Wallace, whom she married in late 2019.
¿QH SHRSOH RQ ERWK VLGHV´ RI WKH LQFLGHQW²DQ HTXLYRFDWLRQ -RH Though the tweet heard ’round the world put her on the global
Biden later said catalyzed him to run against Trump. He also re- PDS +LOO TXLFNO\ EURNH RXW RI EHLQJ GH¿QHG E\ LW PDNLQJ FDO-
acted sympathetically to the rioters last month. culated professional moves with the steeliness and sensibility of
Of the voices that emerged to help the country contextualize and the ballplayers she often covers. Since leaving ESPN in 2018, she
understand the moment, one stood out for its clarity and courage. has landed a new gig at The Atlantic, narrated a documentary pro-
“Donald Trump is a white supremacist who has largely sur- duced by LeBron James, started a successful podcast on Spotify,
rounded himself w/ other white supremacists,” tweeted reporter launched a weekly late-night show on Vice TV, signed a develop-
Jemele Hill. ment deal with Showtime and written an upcoming memoir.
Then co-anchor of In other words, she has
ESPN’s SportsCenter, Hill a lot going on. Which made
had said what many Ameri- us ask: Who better to in-
cans knew to be true. But terview Hill than someone
as so often happens, speak- with the inside edge? To
ing truth to power came at a take on the task of peeling
price, altering the course of back the many layers of
her life and career. Jemele Hill, Playboy asked
If you’re a sports fanat- WKH XQLTXHO\ TXDOL¿HG .HO-
ic, you already knew Hill. ley L. Carter—an Emmy-
$ ¿[WXUH LQ VSRUWV MRXUQDO- winning writer who not only
ism, she had written for the has known Hill since their
Detroit Free Press, Orlando days as MSU students, but
Sentinel and Raleigh News also is her best friend and
& Observer before joining business partner. Carter
ESPN in 2006. For nearly reports from Los Angeles,
12 years she worked various where she invited Hill to
sports beats across ESPN her home for the interview
properties and climbed (they’re in each other’s bub-
steadily up the ladder: as a bles): “When I met Hill we
columnist for ESPN.com; were both teens, wide-eyed
as a commentator on shows but laser focused on becom-
including Cold Pizza, First ing game-changing journal-
Take, Outside the Lines and ists. We were obsessed with
The Sports Reporters; as the the work of renowned black
founder and co-host of the journalists like the Chicago
His & Hers podcast with fel- Tribune’s Clarence Page
low sports reporter Michael or The Washington Post’s
Smith. And then in Febru- Donna Britt. Jemele would
ary 2017 she landed what devour their pieces, perhaps
should’ve been a dream LQVSLUHG E\ WKH XQÀLQFKLQJ
gig: the co-anchor spot on way they just told it like it
SportsCenter. was.
But when her Twitter observation went viral less than eight “Ours is a Black Lucy-and-Ethel type of relationship: She’s the
months into the job, Hill was thrust outside the sports world and rabble-rouser who is always in search of an adventure; I follow
into the national spotlight. Trump, never one to let a personal along because I know wherever we’re going, we’re going to have
grievance slide, lambasted the network and demanded an apol- a good-ass time.
ogy. White House Press Secretary Sarah Huckabee Sanders called “She’s the epitome of cool, peppering her shoot-from-the-hip
+LOO¶VFRPPHQWD³¿UHDEOHRIIHQVH´ZKLOHOHJLRQVRIRWKHU7UXPS style of conversation with colorfully inventive four-letter-word
supporters took to social media to hurl racism, misogyny and death combos. She’s compassionate, generous and an exceptional lis-
threats at Hill. tener—except when it comes to talking her out of something she’s
Sports, often seen as a respite from politics, was proved once set on doing.
again to be inextricably linked to it. In the era of Colin Kaepernick, “And there is nothing that scares her. Well, almost nothing….”
“shut up and dribble” and athletes refusing to meet the president,
there can be no divorcing the two. In spite of this, Hill remained PLAYBOY: We realized the other day that we’ve been BFFs for
UHPDUNDEO\ XQUXIÀHG WKRXJK VKH XOWLPDWHO\ GHFLGHG WR OHDYH nearly 30 years. Are you jittery about this interview?
6SRUWV&HQWHUWRSXUVXHSURMHFWVWKDWZRXOGVRRQUDLVHKHUSUR¿OH HILL: It is a little nerve-racking to be interviewed by somebody
even further. who knows you so well. So, I got this vodka because I’m nervous.
As impactful as it was, that seismic tweet is perhaps the least PLAYBOY: I understand. But you want me to be unedited, right?
interesting thing about Hill. Born in Detroit in 1975, Hill was HILL: I do.

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MAY 2024
PLAYBOY: Back when you were a columnist for the student point to try to keep me connected to his side of the family.
newspaper at Michigan State, your pieces generated a lot of hate I saw my grandparents, cousins and some uncles, but my father
mail. Were you ever scared? was absent. Just M.I.A. During that time my mother got married,
HILL: I remember a column I wrote about how reverse racism VRP\¿UVWPHPRULHVRIDSRVLWLYH%ODFNPDOH¿JXUHZHUHRIP\
GLGQ¶W H[LVW$ GXGH FDOOHG WKH QHZVSDSHU RI¿FH WKH\ WUDQVIHUUHG VWHSIDWKHU P\ PRWKHU¶V ¿UVW KXVEDQG )RU D SHULRG , WKRXJKW KH
him right over to my desk. He said, “I read your column” and starts was my biological dad. But after my father got clean, he started
going off. I’m like, “Okay, okay,” since we’re taught to defuse in coming around; I was nine or 10 years old.
those situations. And then he was like, “I expect a full retraction.” PLAYBOY: There was a moment when you answered the door, he
That’s when the Detroit came out. I’m like, “And what if you was there and he had to explain to you who he was, right?
don’t get it? What are you going to do?” He was like, “You’re go- HILL:,WZDVYHU\DZNZDUG,GLGQRWNQRZKRZWR¿WKLPLQWRP\
ing to see me somewhere when you least expect it,” and hung up life. It was just like, where’s this person supposed to go? He would
the phone. That’s when the lightbulb went off: Oh, these people show up for certain things. He came to some of my softball games,
all know me, but I have no idea who they are. More than likely he we went to the movies, he bought me things. But the emotional
was in my class. Who knows? But that was when I realized you can connection was missing, and I didn’t know how to make up for it.
trigger people to the point where they are willing to threaten your Then, as I learned about things that happened between him and my
life, if not take it. mother, the anger started. I wasn’t sure if I wanted a relationship. I
None of that ever made me—not one time—think, Oh, I need to had to really sit with it, and I wrote him a letter when I was living
write softer. I need to change in Raleigh, North Carolina,
my perspective. I need to working at the News & Ob-
not write about race. It actu- server.
ally had the opposite effect. PLAYBOY: How old were
It made me want to write you when you were working
about it more. “Okay, let me for the paper in Raleigh? 22?
really piss you off.” Y’all HILL: Yeah. I wrote him a
not going to shut me up. It’s letter and went off. It was
not going to happen. I’m the just like, you had a lot of
one with the pen; I’m going nerve just to try. My father
to get the last word. was never demanding, but I
PLAYBOY: 7KH ¿UVW WLPH thought he never really took
you were on ESPN’s Cold responsibility for not being
Pizza in 2007, you closed there. Me and my mother
out the week wearing a T- had a lot of struggles, and
shirt from your alma mater, he could not be relied on.
Mumford High School—the She was battling her own
same shirt Eddie Murphy substance abuse issues, and
wore in Beverly Hills Cop. when our house got fore-
HILL: I did wear the T-shirt closed on, where was my
and a Detroit Tigers jersey. father?
PLAYBOY: Why was that I had to resolve that those
important to you? moments were over. I needed
HILL: As my platform be- to move past it—not for him,
came more elevated I need- but for me. I didn’t want it
ed to show people that good to be something I’d always
things come from Detroit. be sensitive about that’s al-
I grew up in a city where ways going to trigger me.
there was always this idea The best thing I could do is
that people could expect accept him for who and what
only the worst. Detroit made he is—shortcomings and all.
the national news for almost And I did that. Once I got it
exclusively awful things: off my chest, I was good.
murder rate, Devil’s Night, crime, drugs. I got tired of that being PLAYBOY: Writing feels like your most powerful tool. That had
the narrative. to feel very therapeutic.
7KHUH¶VDJULWDQGDVRXOWR'HWURLW\RXZRQ¶W¿QGHOVHZKHUH HILL: It did. Writing has always been important to me because in
I think that has to do with the fact that people there are used to person I can struggle to tell people how I feel. I think too much,
being discounted and disrespected and, frankly, told they’re not and I brew, and I stew, and I turn things over in my mind to the
worthy. Because people look down on the city, it was important to point where, verbally, I’m not the best communicator with certain
me—especially being on ESPN—to shine that sliver of a spotlight topics. With the more volatile emotions, be it love or anger, I’m
and represent my high school. very stunted in that way. I’m going to struggle to tell you those
PLAYBOY: Speaking of high school, let’s talk about growing up. feelings. I can easily express myself in writing in ways I can’t in
I remember a conversation years ago in New York; you jokingly conversation. Growing up, I always kept journals because it was
said something like, “You can tell I didn’t grow up with a positive the best way to stay in touch with my feelings and get that shit out.
PDOH¿JXUHLQP\OLIH´7HOOPHDERXWZKHQ\RXPHW\RXUGDGDQG PLAYBOY: Do you think the fractured relationship with your dad
how that affected you. impacted how you relate to Black men?
HILL: My mother and father had a volatile relationship. There HILL: It’s funny you say that because I have noted the fact that
was abuse, physical and verbal. My mother left him, and my father he’s a recovering addict in previous interviews. He has been clean
sunk deeper into drug culture. But even when he was knee-deep in and sober for decades now, which I also often note. Yet there is this
drugs—he got addicted to heroin—my mother would still make a QDUUDWLYHWKDW,KDWH%ODFNPHQEHFDXVHRIP\IDWKHUZKLFK,¿QG

70

MAY 2024
to be weirdly weaponized. had. We really didn’t care what the executives thought about it.
I didn’t ever look at my father and say, “Well, all Black men And luckily for us, they weren’t thinking about us because
ain’t shit because of what my daddy did.” If anything, it helped they weren’t watching us. We were able to get away with a lot on
me give Black men even more grace because I had learned to ac- ESPN2. Because of our authenticity, a His & Hers community had
cept somebody for who they are. It’s understanding that he dealt developed. The people really fucked with us because we were not
with a very serious addiction, and the afraid to do certain things, talk about
way he picked himself back up was certain things. People get caught up
not easy to do. I have much more in all the silly shit we did that was a
grace because I lived through that "I can only worry lot of fun, but we had groundbreaking
experience. I don’t look at all Black conversations on the network.
men and see somebody who will ul- about other people’s The conversations we had about
timately disappoint me—not at all. Trayvon Martin, about Philando Cas-
Otherwise, I would not have married opinions so much. tile, nobody had on the network. And
a Black man. we’d talk about it as long as we want-
PLAYBOY: You seemed to be hav- They don’t take up a ed. Our conversation after what hap-
ing the most fun when you and Mi- pened to Philando Castile was 15 min-
chael Smith (who would later be your lot of real estate in my utes—you’re not supposed to do that.
co-host on SportsCenter) were doing PLAYBOY: That’s a long time on TV.
His & Hers on ESPN2 in 2015 and mind—none of them HILL: You can’t do that on TV!
2016. Why do you think that was? PLAYBOY: When you were nego-
HILL: Sometimes you don’t know write any check that I tiating a new contract in 2017, you
you’re having the best time of your and Smith both had a chance to exit
life until it’s over. We did—and I cash." and go to another network. But ESPN
mean this in the most complimentary came back with a strong offer—one
way—some of the stupidest things you hadn’t considered before: co-an-
ever seen on television. It was great. It felt like we were left home choring the six o’clock SportsCenter. What made you stay?
alone and the parents were on vacation and had no idea we were HILL: They came stronger than either of us anticipated. And the
throwing a massive party. There’s a level of fearlessness that we weird part was, it was the easiest contract negotiation I ever had
at ESPN. Mike and I were in the middle of the ESPN newsroom new. That was my impression. But the fact that people responded
in good old Building 3, and [senior vice president] Rob King and to it in such a strong way had to do with gender, race and platform.
another executive walked past. King was like, “Hey, what do you And by platform, I don’t mean Twitter; I mean me being somebody
guys think about hosting SportsCenter?” We thought he meant to who represented ESPN. I’m representing a show where the hosts
¿OO LQ ³2K \HDK ZH¶G EH KDSS\ are not known to have those kinds
WR ¿OO LQ ZKHQHYHU \RX JX\V DUH of opinions. Even though I did not
short.” He’s like, “No, no. I mean, make the observation on an ESPN
hosting it.” And we just busted "I hit a point where I platform, to a lot of people it was
out laughing because we thought the same thing. I was stunned.
that was the dumbest idea. “Why wanted to be not just Consider the context of the
would you want us? Have you seen narrative ESPN was caught up in
our show?” The combination of the somebody sitting on the at that time. It was being accused
role, the money and being elevated of being too political and too lib-
in a whole different way—it was a sidelines talking about all eral by people who had their own
no-brainer to take the job. agendas. When they said too politi-
PLAYBOY: You started in Feb- the fucked-up shit hap- cal and too liberal, they meant too
ruary 2017; six months later, you Black, too diverse, too inclusive.
sent out the tweet heard ’round pening; I wanted to be a As soon as certain faces became
the world, calling out President more prominent at the network,
Trump as a white supremacist. part of hopefully prevent- ESPN was accused of capitulat-
The White House called for you to ing to the liberals. Bomani Jones
EH ¿UHG (631 ODWHU XQUHODWHG WR ing much more fucked-up and Dan Le Batard were in a really
that tweet) suspended you for two elevated position, and myself and
weeks, and you left SportsCenter shit from happening." Mike had taken over the six o’clock
shortly after. Were you surprised at SportsCenter, and Sarah Spain and
the backlash? Kate Fagan—all these new faces
HILL: Hell, yeah! I didn’t feel it was that controversial. I didn’t representing different things.
think it was breaking news. I didn’t think it was particularly intel- PLAYBOY: People who weren’t cis, hetero, white men.
ligent, from the standpoint that it didn’t teach people something HILL: ([DFWO\ 7KDW ZDV UHÀH[LYHO\ RIIHQVLYH WR VRPH SHRSOH
They equated it with ESPN going the way of the liberal left and KDYHWZRPDOHFRKRVWV$IWHU,OLVWHQHGWRWKH¿UVWWZRHSLVRGHV
forgetting about the straight, white, conservative, Christian men I asked you why you felt you needed them. It felt like a solo inter-
who had gotten the network to the place it was. view series, and that’s exactly what it became. At what point did
PLAYBOY: The news of your tweet was everywhere. I remember you realize that was the right direction?
sitting at a bar with you, and someone sent us a round of drinks. HILL: Probably as we were trying to book guests. The guests were
When we looked up, a white man raised his glass in salute. Did that YHU\VSHFL¿FDERXWZDQWLQJWRWDONWRPHDQGLWZDVQ¶WDQ\LQVXOW
catch you off guard? to the two co-hosts. I was coming off a very public situation, and
HILL: Oh, it totally caught me off guard. The little bit I did hear there was a desire to sit down with the person at the center of the
during that time was that white people were pretty upset at me. I public situation. I hadn’t taken a step back to think, You can prob-
also had a big shift in awareness, realizing that I was no longer in ably carry this by yourself. And then as it evolved into that I was
just the sports space. I was accustomed to being recognized, but like, Oh, this probably should have been the idea all along.
in a much different way; people wanted to come up to me and talk PLAYBOY: I love that you ultimately bet solely on yourself.
about whether Tom Brady was the best quarterback of all time. HILL:,WIHOWRGGDW¿UVWEXWDV,VHWWOHGLQ,NQHZLWZDVH[DFWO\
Suddenly people were coming up to me and expressing political what it should be.
opinions or the only reason they knew me was because of this PLAYBOY: During the turbulence of your professional life these
tweet. I was seeing in real time that my world was changing, and I past few years, you also were falling in love, marrying Ian Wallace
couldn’t tell if that was good or bad. in November 2019. What attracted you to him?
PLAYBOY: You eventually HILL: 7KH ¿UVW WLPH ,
told ESPN you didn’t want looked at Ian, I was like,
to anchor the show anymore. He’s hot. Immediately the
What happened? eye-fucking started. He also
HILL: I was wildly unhap- has a very charismatic per-
py even before the Donald sonality and instantly was
Trump thing popped off. able to make me laugh. He
The show wasn’t what I ex- brings out the lightness in
pected. Creatively we were me because he is light as
not on the same page. Every well.
GD\ 0LNH DQG , KDG WR ¿JKW Had you asked me what
battles, some of which were I was looking for at the time
emotionally exhausting. To I met him, I’m not sure I
have to convince people would have described some-
why you should be allowed body like him. That’s not to
to be yourself is very self- VXJJHVW , KDG D ¿UP KDQGOH
defeating. I was tired of it. on what I was looking for,
And I was tired of feeling because I actually wasn’t
I was begging all the time. even looking.
The Trump controversy gave PLAYBOY: Before this re-
them an excuse to peel the lationship, you really reject-
show back to what we af- ed traditional gender roles
fectionately called “make in dating. Even in college,
SportsCenter great again.” homie was cooking for us. I
Once I got suspended, every- don’t think you’d ever even
thing became about [¿QGLQJ] cooked for or catered to a
an exit strategy. man until you met Ian.
There was something I HILL: Never.
could never fully articulate PLAYBOY: But he gets this
that was so hurtful about the traditionally feminine ver-
SportsCenter experience. sion of you. Why?
Not the Trump stuff, but the HILL: Maybe it’s a testa-
way in which Mike and I felt ment to how love works—
we were not good enough for them. It’s like being in a relationship not to suggest that you only love your man if you cater to him. But
where somebody loves you in the dating phase, and then once y’all it had always been hard for me to be—or even want to be—nurtur-
start living together they hate the way you do the toothpaste. And ing toward a partner. It’s not that I didn’t want to have that as a
suddenly they aren’t feeling it. quality, it’s just that I didn’t really feel like the person was worthy
PLAYBOY: After you announced that you wanted to leave ESPN, or I just honestly didn’t have the energy to do it.
a lot of people wanted to hire you. Why was The Atlantic the right But with him, it’s totally different. I enjoy doing super girly
¿W" things with him. I love cooking for him. Now the kitchen is actu-
HILL: It took me back to the thing I love doing the most. The TV ally relaxing. I hate myself for admitting this because I feel like my
VWXII KDV EHHQ YHU\ EHQH¿FLDO SURIHVVLRQDOO\ DQG ¿QDQFLDOO\ EXW former self is like, What?! He’s helped me discover parts of myself
writing is what I love to do. That’s why after I left SportsCenter that I didn’t even know were there. Whenever I’m with him I just
I chose to write for ESPN’s The Undefeated. I wanted to get back feel both emotionally and physically safe.
to actually talking with the people I often only talk about. And PLAYBOY: 0RVW RI \RXU ¿UVW \HDU RI PDUULDJH ZDV VSHQW LQ D
just from a critical-thinking standpoint, being able to construct a global pandemic, and you still like him! That’s amazing, because it
column or an essay or even a reported piece, it’s just a much dif- has been very challenging for other couples.
ferent brain cell you’re using. I wanted to get back to that. And I HILL: When we were engaged, we both traveled a lot for work.
love The Atlantic. There would be some weeks when we were like two ships passing
PLAYBOY: You also launched a podcast. The initial plan was to in the night. In a given week, we might spend two nights together—

73

MAY 2024
three nights tops. We were both very understanding of each other’s their careers. They’re best friends, they’re from Michigan and they
schedules. But what the pandemic has taught me is I don’t know if went to the best university, which, of course, is Michigan State.
we would have survived doing that. It’s not us, but people might see a lot of similarities. How do you
Our busy schedules never created any tension. He never said to feel about that?
me, “Don’t take that speaking engagement.” But I don’t want to go HILL: I’m going to have to do a lot of explaining after every epi-
back to that anymore. This time has really has changed me, and, sode. “No, I really didn’t take molly. That wasn’t me.”
by extension, us permanently. I was hearing about some couples I think people are going to be into it. We have an amazing team.
who were arguing; meanwhile, the only thing I was thinking was, We’ve come up with an amazing concept. Even if you aren’t living
Shit, we are spending a lot of time that exact same situation, there’s so
together. I might wind up pregnant much to identify with—especially
after this. for Black women. I’m looking for-
PLAYBOY: We’ve known each "Personally, I hope for ward to people’s reactions, but I’m
other for more than a quarter- going to be nervous. Regardless of
century. How would you say our what I always hope for, whether it winds up a pilot or airing
friendship has changed over that for the next 10 years, I’ll feel good
time? which is peace of mind. about it because we did it our way.
HILL: As grown women of a We presented and sold the story that
certain age, we’re going through Professionally, I always was important to us. It’s hard not to
some real shit now. We’re actually feel good about it.
much more willing to be vulner- hope for discomfort." PLAYBOY: You’ve been produc-
able about the shit we’re going tive during the pandemic; you
through. When we were in our wrote a memoir that’s coming out
20s, we could talk every day for 45 later this year. We talked about an
minutes or an hour. We actually don’t have those conversations as early draft and I was surprised by what you decided to share. Some
much now. But when we talk, it’ll be like, “So let me talk about of those stories I thought we’d be carrying to our graves. What
this anxiety I have.” made you want to be so forthcoming?
PLAYBOY: We’re also business partners. Our production com- HILL: Because that’s the only way to do it. It’s a go-big-or-go-
SDQ\/RGJH)UHHZD\0HGLDMXVWJRWLWV¿UVWGHYHORSPHQWGHDOIRU home situation. Writing for me is true. I can’t do it unless I can
a Showtime series about two black women who are doing well in write truthfully. So how could I not do that with my own story? If
I’m going to write my own story and grab my own neck, I got to do me, but never to the point where I feel a sense of unrest or unease
it in a way that gives it the treatment it deserves. So, yeah, people about it. I generally just don’t like ignorance.
ZLOOEHOHDUQLQJVRPHWKLQJVIRUWKH¿UVWWLPH+HDGOLQHVDUHJRLQJ PLAYBOY: You get offered a lot of projects. How do you decide
to come out of it. what to say yes to?
PLAYBOY: What’s your worst fear about writing a memoir? HILL: It’s really simple: It’s who’s doing it. Essentially, do I be-
HILL: That it won’t be good, which is different from being juicy. lieve them? Do I buy into who they are as a person? Are they in
Some people think that for a memoir to be good, it needs to be this shit for real reasons, or is it just a media ploy? I get asked to
juicy. No. If people don’t think it’s well written or if there’s back- do plenty of shit that I just won’t because I don’t fuck with the peo-
lash over how the story is crafted, that would be devastating for me ple who do it. They might be well-intentioned, but I have to think
because this is my own story. about bigger things.
PLAYBOY: The people who hate-follow you on social media PLAYBOY: You were very vocal about the 2020 election. What
don’t understand that Black empowerment is different from white was at stake?
supremacy. Does that bother you? HILL: The soul of this country. It was not hyperbole. Democracy
HILL: Hell, no. I can only worry about other people’s opinions so was at stake. I don’t even like to use the word was because it’s still
much. They don’t take up a lot of real estate in my mind—none of at stake. The element that Donald Trump drummed up has always
them write any check that I cash. On social media I try to gener- been there, a consistent part of the Republican Party. He was just
ally respond to issues more than people. Now, there are obviously bolder about it. Ronald Reagan was the original promoter of “make
politicians that I will either praise or embarrass. America great again.” There was not a lot of difference. It’s amaz-
PLAYBOY: We both come from a world that—regardless of what ing how history is kind to certain people.
you cover—you’re representing a media organization. You can’t People will say, “Focus on the fact that Trump won’t be the next
make political statements, even if you’re an entertainment reporter president,” but there are still over 70 million people who voted to
or a sports reporter. When did that change for you? reelect him. That’s hard to deal with if you’re somebody of color,
HILL: We were taught that ethos of, “You’re not the story, don’t especially if you’re Black. White people don’t understand what it’s
be political. Be objective, and stay neutral and unbiased.” But the like to walk around with that, to know that when you walk into
longer I was in journalism, the more I realized how stupid that was. ZRUN¿YHRXWRIZKLWHSHRSOH\RXHQFRXQWHUGRQ¶WHYHQOLNHWKH
I understood what they meant, but what they meant is not what they fact that you’re there. That’s what we have at the back of our minds
said. What they wanted you to do is reporting that was fair. Fair is when we go anywhere.
not the same as objective. PLAYBOY: Joe Biden says what happened in Charlottesville mo-
A major problem in journalism now is that we keep trying to tivated him to run for president again. And the tweet that earned
have the “both sides” shit. That’s not our job as journalists. What’s you so much notoriety was a reply to what happened in Charlottes-
both sides of a bunch of neo-Nazis storming Charlottesville? ville. Have you ever thought about that connection?
What’s both sides of that? If I wrote a column about it, should HILL: I have not, but it is strange because you never know what
I include pro-racist voices for balance? No, that’s stupid. Asking incident will touch off an entirely different emotional reaction. It
Black people, especially a Black woman, to be objective about rac- wasn’t like I didn’t know the depths of racism before Charlottes-
ism is an insult. ville. But that day it was different. Even former presidents who I
I decided some of the rules of our profession just weren’t worth have not agreed with politically, I could never see them doing that.
preserving. I hit a point where I wanted to be not just somebody sit- As much as I hated George W. Bush at one point for his politics,
ting on the sidelines talking about all the fucked-up shit happening; KHLVQRWJRLQJWRJHWXSWKHUHDQGEHOLNH³7KHUHZHUHYHU\¿QH
I wanted to be a part of hopefully preventing much more fucked-up people on both sides.”
VKLW IURP KDSSHQLQJ 6R , FKDQJHG LW XS D OLWWOH ,¶P GH¿QLWHO\ D PLAYBOY: How do you feel about the new presidential admin-
former journalist now. istration?
PLAYBOY: You don’t consider yourself a journalist anymore? HILL: Black folks elected Joe Biden. That is a beautiful thing. As
HILL: Sometimes. That’s the best way to put it. I still work for The much as I have issues with some things that Joe Biden has done—I
Atlantic, so I perform a function of journalism when I do that or when didn’t vote for him in the primary—I’m looking forward to not
I appear on CNN or MSNBC. But am I purely a journalist? No. ZDNLQJ XS HYHU\ GD\ WR ¿QG RXW WKDW WKH SUHVLGHQW KDV KDG VRPH
PLAYBOY: Do you think of yourself as an activist? fucking Twitter tantrum that may have created a war.
HILL: Hell, no! I think that’s disrespectful to the activists who are I’m a supporter of Kamala Harris. I’m invested in her success,
actually doing it. There are people who—some of whom have been and I want to see Black women win. I’ve had the opportunity to
gracious enough to develop friendships with me—are on the front get to know her, and she’s the real deal. I said the same thing about
lines. The sense of optimism they have—that they could change the Obamas.
all the things we see—is really quite beautiful. I’m too cynical for PLAYBOY: What do you hope 2021 brings for you, professionally
that. I’m not LaTosha Brown knocking on people’s doors and en- and personally?
couraging them to vote and getting them registered. However, in HILL: I’m going to take the biggest swings of my career. I tran-
WKHVSDFHRILQÀXHQFH,GRKDYH,DPDPSOLI\LQJWKRVHHIIRUWVVR sitioned from journalist into entrepreneur, and that is going to be
they are not unseen and invisible. And I think that’s okay. even stronger in 2021. I’ll be able to control some narratives that I
PLAYBOY: You deal with a lot, including harassment and death WKLQNRXUFRPPXQLW\QHHGVWREHDI¿UPHGDQGXSOLIWHG
threats. How do your friends know when they should be concerned Personally, I hope for what I always hope for, which is peace of
about you? mind. Peace of mind and balance. The balance is much harder to
HILL: Whenever I start to really retreat into myself and wall my- achieve. I don’t have any; I don’t think I’ve ever had any. Profes-
self off. The things that bother me aren’t the things people can eas- sionally, I always hope for discomfort.
ily see. I’m more concerned with how my marriage is going than PLAYBOY: Is that how you grow?
what people are saying about me on Twitter. I can disconnect with HILL: It’s the only way you can grow. You can’t grow doing the
social media anytime I feel like it; I can’t disconnect from my hus- same things. I know I have big things on the horizon. These experi-
band. Those aren’t even in the same categories. Ignorance bothers ences may be uncomfortable—but they will be rewarding.

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DARE TO BE DIFFERENT

Instagram @eusumpani
Photography by Marco Danilo | @marcodanilophoto.pro
Makeup Leonardo Maia | @leomaia_makeup
StylistU­ÌĮďĊT­ðĉďĊÐɳɩĊ­ÌĮďĊĉ­ðĉďĊÐȘďťÆð­ăɁ
PR Cacau Oliver | @cacauoliver
 80

MAY 2024
Tell us about the moment you found out you were Has it ever happened that you accidentally wore cut food and to defend myself.
going to be featured in the magazine. And what DQ RXW²W WKDW \RX VKRZHG RII WRR PXFK LQ SXE-
was your initial reaction? I was in shock. Playboy lic? If yes, tell us here. Always happens. I joke that What is your favorite snack? Sushi.
has always been a great reference for me, as a wom- my butt has a life and personality of its own. The
an and as a model. I dreamed of seeing my photo on most embarrassing situation was without a doubt What's the worst thing a man can do to complete-
the cover like I saw that of so many women I admire. in a park. I was wearing a full skirt, it wasn't short, ly turn you off? Be dishonest with me. I always say "I
It's literally a dream come true. and nothing showed, but I wasn't wearing any pant- prefer the truth that hurts than the lie that deceives.
ies. A very strong wind started, blowing away chairs, I can't stand dishonesty, falsehood."
Can you share your favorite photo or post from umbrellas, and, unfortunately, my skirt. I didn't know
the magazine and why it has special meaning to what to hold, my bag, my hair, or my skirt. What advice would you give aspiring models? In-
you? This photo symbolizes everything I seek. Con- vest in yourself, in your image. Don't care about oth-
nection with nature, calm. A free body, natural hair, What are some of your biggest dreams that you er people's opinions and don't try to change your
in a place to reflect and relax. Intimacy speaks to hope to achieve? In the short term, I hope to be way because of other people. You can achieve eve-
elegance. You can feel the peace and sensuality of able to buy my dream BMW. I've always been pas- rything you want by being yourself! And if you do it
the moment. sionate about cars and this specific brand enchants this way, the path will be much easier. You have to
me. However, my biggest dream of all is to build a be your biggest concern and your biggest achieve-
When you're not working, what helps you unwind shelter for abandoned animals. Being able to rescue ment.
and relax? I like reading books and traveling to un- them from the streets and mistreatment and give
known places. Go hiking, play with animals, and go them a home with peace and love. Thanks for talking to us. Do you have any last
out with friends (especially to eat). words for our readers? I want to say that I am im-
What's the weirdest beauty tip or trick you've mensely grateful to everyone who followed my path
What's the weirdest fan encounter you've ever learned? I made a butt cream with my period blood. and contributed in some way to making my dream
had? He was a passionate fan of my little feet. I met It may sound gross, but it's magical! It has the power of getting here come true. Special thanks to my
him on the street, he recognized me and asked for to rejuvenate the skin, leaving it firmer and more hy- subscribers who always follow me and believe in
a photo…Kissing my foot. It was strange, I had never drated. I still use it today. me, I always do everything for you! If you want to
seen anything like it. But I thought it was cool, he get to know me better, come chat with me on my
was super polite, so I fulfilled his request. If you were stranded on a desert island with just social networks, I love making new friends from dif-
one accessory, what would it be? A machete. To ferent parts of the world.

83

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84
 85

MAY 2024
Dope Tutor
Where Can I Buy Black-Owned
Weed (and Why Is That Important)?
“It’s hard to pull yourself up by your boot-
straps when you’ve never had any boots,
only knees on the neck,” says social-equity
program manager Angela White

WRITTEN BY ANDREW DEANGELO ILLUSTRATION BY RICHARD A. CHANCE

86
 "When you buy cannabis from a
Those of us who take pleasure in consuming cannabis
owe a big debt to those in the Black community who
Black-owned dispensary, you’re
NHSW WKH JUDVV ÀRZLQJ VR ZH FRXOG JHW VWRQHG 'XH
to the criminalization of weed, Black people and helping to build generational
other people of color have routinely paid a heavier
price for their participation in cannabis culture and wealth for people whose families
commerce. Cannabis laws were—and are—used to
disproportionately arrest and imprison Black people. have been destroyed by the war
This has been going on for 100 years in America.
Former NBA star and current cannabis entrepreneur
Al Harrington put it to me plainly.
on drugs."
“Cannabis prohibition was used to destroy the
Black community,” he says, repeating the sentence to
make sure I really heard. The word destroy resonates Black-, Latin- and woman-owned businesses.
in my mind like a silent scream. Harrington is right. Another wonderful resource is Emerald’s “Conscious
It’s a painful truth. One thing consumers can do to right Consumption” list. (Over the past year, your Dope
that historical wrong is to give their cannabis dollars to Tutor has sampled and enjoyed dozens of products
Black-owned businesses. thanks to these guides.) On your hunt for Black-owned
Ten years ago Harrington co-founded cannabis cannabis, Google is your friend, and so is Instagram.
EUDQG 9LROD D SUHPLXP SUHUROO DQG ÀRZHU FRPSDQ\ “When you buy cannabis from a Black-owned
named after his grandmother, who found that cannabis dispensary, you’re helping to build generational wealth
brought her relief from glaucoma. As CEO, Harrington for people whose families have been destroyed by the
is bringing more than pain relief and pleasure to war on drugs,” says Angela White. White is the equity
the masses; Viola has committed to help minorities for industry program manager at San Francisco’s
work toward ownership in cannabis, to assist license Success Centers, an organization that, among other
applicants as they navigate the complex process and to things, helps people harmed by the war on drugs enter
reinvest in community via projects such as food drives. the legal cannabis industry. “It’s hard to pull yourself up
Steps like these are called social-equity measures, by your bootstraps when you’ve never had any boots,
and they’re intended as a way to help correct systemic only knees on the neck.”
injustice: The very people who have borne the brunt 2WKHU RXW¿WV H[LVW WR QXUWXUH DQG HGXFDWH DVSLULQJ
of prohibition—people of color and low-income entrepreneurs in the Black community and to help them
community members—are now missing out on the enter the cannabis industry, including Hood Incubator
massive cannabis boom. The business world of legal in Oakland, California and Budding Solutions in
cannabis is currently Baltimore, Maryland.
overwhelmingly white; Black ownership of cannabis businesses will grow
for entrepreneurs of color, as these programs bear fruit and investors, including
The very people who barriers to entry can athletes and celebrities, expand their reach into the
include lack of access to LQGXVWU\ -D\= IRU H[DPSOH KDV D QHZ ÀRZHU EUDQG
have borne the brunt capital, existing cannabis called Monogram. He’s also giving back by launching
convictions and predatory a R185.00 million venture fund that will contribute a
of prohibition are partners who seek to portion of its net income “to invest in minority-owned
take advantage of social- and Black-owned cannabis businesses and contribute to
now missing out on equity licensees. the effort to rectify the wrongs of prohibition.” This is
This imbalance of important because it addresses a massive hurdle to entry
the massive cannabis opportunity is one of the in the cannabis industry: access to capital.
reasons it’s so important
boom. for individual consumers
0RUHDQGPRUHFDSLWDOVKRXOGVRRQEHÀRZLQJLQWR
the hands of Black businesses. Activists have done
to support Black-owned an outstanding job ensuring social-equity licenses are
weed companies. We available to people of color in many legal states, and
have a long way to go, but hope is building. that effort must continue. If so, investors will have
People of color have about 19 percent ownership little choice but to invest in the Black community if
in the weed industry as a whole, with Black ownership they want to be in this business. This will allow Black
at approximately 4 percent. Black-owned cannabis entrepreneurs to open their doors to you, the customer;
is available across North America. There are Black- it’s at that moment that you can activate your moral
owned dispensaries from Boston to Palm Desert to compass and be part of the solution.
Toronto, as well as Black-owned businesses all the way Buy Black-owned weed for your next purchase
up the supply chain, be they THC cultivators, hemp and you’ll be part of starting to right the wrongs of the
growers, CBD brands or manufacturers. SDVW ZKLOH JHWWLQJ VRPH YHU\ ¿QH JDQMD DW WKH VDPH
<RX PD\ EH ZRQGHULQJ ZKHUH \RX FDQ ¿QG time. That seems like a wonderful way to celebrate
these products. The good folks at Cannaclusive Black History Month to me. Just make sure to carry
and ALMOSTCONSULTING make it easy with your celebration—and your support of Black-owned
their InclusiveBase, which helps consumers locate businesses—throughout the rest of the year too.

87

MAY 2024
Journalists
Are Not
Expendable

WRITTEN BY BRIAN KAREM PHOTO BY LEFTERIS PITARAKIS/AP/SHUTTERSTOCK

 Donald Trump is the disaster that keeps on giving. The January 6 Capitol insurrection exposed some
If Shel Silverstein were still alive he’d have great fun with UHSRUWHUVIRUWKH¿UVWWLPHWRWKHNLQGVRISK\VLFDO
the grotesquely fetid nature of Trump’s unnatural “gifts” to dangers that journalists around the world routinely
the American people. Trump is a perverse Giving Tree. His face, though the press at the White House now works
minions are like spoiled children incapable of setting aside safely from behind miles of menacing fencing. Still,
their own interests to help the public they are supposed to we have been slow to insist that Biden clean up
serve. Republican Senator Ted Cruz, who abandoned his one of Trump’s most grievous offenses—the threat
constituents for Cancún during Texas’s deadly weather crisis, against the truth.
is a prime example. 7UXHLQKLV¿UVW¿YHZHHNVLQWKH:KLWH+RXVH
Public service means putting the interests of the people Biden has done much to turn down the volume of
ahead of your own. It’s Trump’s war on truth and to foster a return to pre-
a test that too many of Trumpian norms. This is necessary so that the shared
The murder of Jamal our public servants (like concerns of the majority of citizens can be addressed
Cruz) routinely fail. ZLWKRXW WKH ¿FWLRQDO UKHWRULF WKDW GRPLQDWHG WKH
Khashoggi cannot be The greatest Trump era. But I do not believe Biden has yet clearly
immediate test facing the addressed the real damage caused by Trump’s attacks
ignored. Biden must United States remains on truth, nor taken the essential steps needed to
battling the coronavirus support a free press.
rebuild trust by taking pandemic, thanks in no If President Biden is serious about returning the
small part to the Trump 8QLWHG 6WDWHV WR FRQVWLWXWLRQDO QRUPV KH PXVW ¿QG
decisive action against administration having a way to stop threats against reporters. There is no
ignored the health crisis better way to do this than decisively addressing
Saudi Arabia and the public’s needs the assassination of Washington Post columnist
and then lying about it. Jamal Khashoggi. Thanks to Biden’s restrictive
Trump routinely lied, Covid-19 policies for White House reporters, I
FUHDWLQJFDQFHURXV¿FWLRQVWRMXVWLI\KLVRZQVHO¿VKQHHGVKLV have been unable to question him or anyone in his
lies brought about a national existential crisis that led directly administration publicly and directly about this.
to the January 6 insurrection (and two separate impeachments). In early February I asked my respected colleague,
7UXPSFRQVWUXFWHGKLV¿FWLRQDOZRUOGE\GHVWUR\LQJIDLWK pool reporter Rob Crilly of the Washington Examiner,
in the Fourth Estate. He infamously confessed to Lesley Stahl to ask Press Secretary Jen Psaki a question for me,
of 60 Minutes that he attacked the press so people wouldn’t VLQFH , FRXOGQ¶W JHW LQWR WKH EULH¿QJ XQGHU WKH QHZ
believe us. The simple fact is we cannot make the land safe for protocols. He obliged. “We saw a break with Saudi
democracy until we make the land safe for facts, and safe for policy yesterday in the Middle East,” Crilly asked.
WKRVHRIXVSUHVHQWLQJIDFWV²ZKHWKHUZH¿QGWKRVHIDFWV RU “So will the Biden administration openly condemn or
those who present them) pleasant or unpleasant.
3UHVLGHQW -RH %LGHQ UHFRJQL]HG WKLV LQ WKH ¿UVW SROLF\
speech of his administration, saying, “A free press is essential
to the health of a democracy.” Two legislative proposals have
been introduced on Capitol Hill: the Global Press Freedom Act
In his first five
and the Jamal Khashoggi Press Freedom Accountability Act.
The latter bill, introduced earlier this month in the House by
Representative Adam Schiff and in the Senate late last year by
weeks in the White
Senators Amy Klobuchar and Patrick Leahy, aims to strengthen
U.S. resolve to protect journalists and hold accountable
countries and foreign individuals found responsible for killing
House, Biden has
or harming them.
“The United States’ commitment to the protection of
journalists and the promotion of press freedom internationally
done much to turn
is critical given its prominent role on the world stage,” said
Anna K. Nelson, executive director of Reporters Without down the volume
Borders USA. “Not only does this bill seek justice for the
senseless murder of Jamal Khashoggi, it also increases
protection for reporters who risk torture, imprisonment and of Trump’s war on
even death as they report critical information.”
The Global Press Freedom Act would institutionalize
the U.S. commitment to advancing press freedom abroad truth.
by creating the role of an “ambassador at large” who would
engage with governments and organizations to draw attention
to violations of press freedom and reporter safety.
Both acts are needed. But we are still waiting for Biden to
WDNHDFULWLFDO¿UVWVWHSWRZDUGSURWHFWLQJIUHHGRPRIWKHSUHVV

90

MAY 2024
implement sanctions against the Saudi government
for the death of Washington Post writer Jamal
Khashoggi?”
Journalists
There is little doubt the crown prince of Saudi
Arabia, Mohammed bin Salman (or MBS) is behind
the death of Khashoggi, who was murdered and
don’t gen-
dismembered at the Saudi consulate in Istanbul on
October 2, 2018, by agents of the Saudi government.
Trump said little about it and did even less. He
erally have
defended MBS and continued to do business with
the Saudis, issuing a statement in November 2018
saying the United States was “standing with Saudi
cheerleaders.
Arabia” for strategic reasons. “It could very well be
that the Crown Prince had knowledge of this tragic
event—maybe he did and maybe he didn’t!” After
information tying MBS to Khashoggi’s assassination
became public, Trump went so far as to cast doubt on to just say the state-sponsored murder of a Washington
the evidence. “I’ve seen so many different reports,” Post columnist is wrong—not that she said even that
he said in June 2019 on Meet the Press, then telling much. We all know it is wrong. What needs to be said
host Chuck Todd about the Saudis, “Take their by the president of the United States is that there will
money. Take their money, Chuck.” be serious repercussions for it and that it will never
The lack of U.S. response to Khashoggi’s murder be tolerated by this country. It must be denounced
increases the risk to every reporter on the planet. If in the strongest terms, and no quarter given to those
those known to be responsible go unpunished, it puts who would sponsor or otherwise support this behavior.
a bull’s-eye squarely on our backs. Further, if D.C. Tinhorn dictators must be put on notice: You cannot kill
continues to do business as usual with Saudi Arabia, reporters with impunity.
it tells the world we have no moral standing. We care Khashoggi’s death, unanswered by the U.S.,
only about the money. It’s a brutal world, folks. So increased the risk for all members of the press who
much for empathy. simply do their jobs—even those privileged reporters
%DFN DW WKH HDUO\ )HEUXDU\ EULH¿QJ 3VDNL who rarely make it beyond the White House and into
recognized there was a problem as she answered my the real world. As Christophe Deloire, secretary-
question posed by Crilly. “First, let me say and reiterate: general of Reporters Without Borders, put it: “When
7KHPXUGHURI-DPDO.KDVKRJJLZDVDKRUUL¿FFULPH the press is silenced, corruption, violence, inequalities
:HDUHSUHSDUHGWRUHOHDVHDQXQFODVVL¿HGUHSRUWZLWK and abuses of power can escape unnoticed.”
full transparency for Congress,” she said. “This is the Journalists don’t generally have cheerleaders.
ODZ DQG ZH¶OO IROORZ WKH ODZ 2I FRXUVH WKH 2I¿FH Readers who cheer us on Monday for reporting
of the Director of National Intelligence would have information with which they agree will angrily dismiss
further details, and I would refer you to them for us on Tuesday for reporting information with which
DGGLWLRQDOVSHFL¿FV´6KHVDLGDOLWWOHELWPRUHDERXW they strongly disagree. That’s part of the job.
expecting Saudi Arabia to improve its human rights Renowned reporter Helen Thomas once told me
record and ended by saying, “I don’t have any policy that if I were looking for friends, I should try a different
decisions to read out for you or predict for you at this profession. She was right. But allowing people to disagree
point in time.” with or denounce reporters is a far cry from sanctioning
This is not enough. Psaki simply failed to say the murder of a columnist who criticizes you.
what needed to be said. No one was surprised by Donald Trump’s lack
Last Tuesday she inched closer to addressing of action on the matter as president. What’s fairly
the issue. When asked if Biden sees Saudi Arabia surprising is Biden’s lack of action. On Wednesday,
as an ally, Psaki said, “We’ve made clear from when asked twice about Saudi Arabia and once about
the beginning that we’re going to recalibrate Khashoggi, Psaki again refused to decisively address
our relationship with Saudi Arabia, and part of the issue. If the United States does not now hold
that is going back to engagement, counterpart to accountable those who killed Jamal Khashoggi, then
counterpart. The president’s counterpart is King we are accomplices after the fact.
Salman”—not MBS. 3UHVLGHQW %LGHQ PXVW WDNH GHFLVLYH DQG GH¿QLWLYH
This Monday Psaki reacted to another question action to make sure despots around the world will
about accountability for Khashoggi’s murder, saying take notice: You cannot kill reporters without facing
that unlike the last administration, Biden “is not consequences.
going to hold back in speaking out when he has If he doesn’t squarely address this issue, then Biden is
objections, concerns about issues related to human no better than Trump, who failed to do so; no better than
rights, freedom of speech, any other concerns he may &UX]ÀHHLQJWKHFRXQWU\ZKLOHKLVFRQVWLWXHQWVVXIIHU
have about the way things are being run.” Please, President Biden. Remember Jamal
7KDW¶V ¿QH DV IDU DV LW JRHV EXW LW LVQ¶W HQRXJK Khashoggi.

91

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 92

MAY 2024
Tim and Eric Awesome
Show, Great Job! debuted
a decade ago. What do its
creators make of the fact
that our president may as
well be one of the show’s
grotesquely comical char-
acters?

BY DANIELLE BACHER PHOTOGRAPHY BY MILLICENT HAILES

93
“Someone give me a goddamn belt! My pants keep falling
off!”
Tim Heidecker kicks off a pair of Kenneth Cole slacks and
FURVVHV WKH ÀRRU LQ EODFN ER[HU EULHIV DQG PDWFKLQJ VRFNV
jiggling his belly to the AM classic “Rich Girl” blaring from
the next room. Meanwhile, Eric Wareheim is shaving his
face with an electric razor, fashioning a luxurious mustache.
There’s no air-conditioning in this downtown Los Angeles
loft, and sweat glistens across his brow. Peeling off an XL T-
shirt—he stands an ursine six-and-a-half-feet tall—Wareheim
exposes his richly carpeted chest. “Damn, I look good,” he
says to the mirror as he adjusts a pair of aviators.
These two aren’t quite household names, but they’ve
spent the past 13 years carving out an unmistakable and ever-
growing niche in the pop-culture landscape. They’re currently
at work on the second season of their horror-comedy anthol-
ogy Tim & Eric’s Bedtime Stories. Heidecker also heads up
the Adult Swim series Decker (think 24 on a public-access
budget), as well as On Cinema, and Wareheim has reached
new heights of visibility playing Aziz Ansari’s best friend
RQ WKH 1HWÀL[ VHULHV 0DVWHU RI 1RQH %XW DV D XQLW WKH\¶UH
best known for Tim and Eric Awesome Show, Great Job!,
whose 10th anniversary they’re commemorating with a live
tour and a special episode, which aired last Sunday. Spanning
¿YHVHDVRQV$ZHVRPH6KRZGHOLYHUHGOR¿SURGXFWLRQJURVV
anatomy and frenetic non sequiturs in 11-minute doses. Some
of the more memorable sequences include a holiday episode sighs. It’s possible he has hit his quota of Hall & Oates for the
in which both men unexpectedly start lactating (they proceed day. Now Wareheim is prancing around in his underwear, ca-
to hand out bottles of their “man milk” as gifts); a scene fea- ressing his throat in slow motion. “Let’s do this!” he yells to the
turing a pubic-hair milkshake, which Heidecker drinks in the crew. A wardrobe team surrounds Heidecker, guiding him into a
hopes of growing an epic “pube mound”; and a series of ads in baby blue Byblos suit.
which a mangy-bearded Wareheim hawks live child clowns. ³$ZHVRPH6KRZLVGH¿QLWHO\GHHSLQRXUKHDUWV´:DUHKHLP
The creative process behind retina scorchers like these says. “We were making the same exact thing in college. We
was surprisingly mundane. During the show’s run, Heidecker were outsiders even back then. We didn’t like anyone in our
and Wareheim would meet up in L.A. restaurants to eat BLTs Film 101 class.” He pauses, rethinking. “Well, it’s not that we
and discuss forthcoming episodes. No matter how surreal (or didn’t like them,” he says, laughing. “We didn’t respect them.
JURVV  WKH ¿QLVKHG SURGXFW PRVW RI WKHLU LGHDV FDPH IURP We knew we could eventually make something better.”
scanning their environment. Now 41 years old, Heidecker and Wareheim met at Tem-
“I’ll be driving and think, Ah, Lamborghini. What can we ple University in Philadelphia as freshmen in 1994. On their
do with that?” says Heidecker. “It’s a very layered process. ¿UVWGD\WKH\VZDSSHGLQDSSURSULDWHVWRULHVWRPDNHHDFKRWKHU
We go out and make a lot of raw material that doesn’t become laugh, causing a disruption in the auditorium. “We immediately
what it is until it’s edited and put together.” Wareheim agrees, got in trouble and had to see the teacher after class,” recalls
adding that he “loves to fuck with people—not as a mean Wareheim. “We were bad and got yelled at—in college. Then
thing but to entertain ourselves.” we ended up in the same dorm as all the basketball players. So
Heidecker insists he has always rejected the idea of “anti- it was one big jock party, and then us.”
comedy.” Despite material that strays far from the traditional Heidecker adds, “They were like, ‘Where is all the pot
setup-to-punch-line framework, their goal is not to alienate or smoke coming from?’ ”
unnerve audiences, the way Andy Kaufman did in his heyday 7KH¿UVWYLGHRDVVLJQPHQWWKH\GLGWRJHWKHUZDVDELWFDOOHG
by reading The Great Gatsby onstage; they simply want to “Find That Chicken.” “Even then there was a lot of Tim and
make people, themselves included, laugh. Nor is their com- Eric in it,” says Heidecker. “It was this stupid thing with a Brit-
edy meant to appeal only to stoned hipsters. In fact, many ish phone booth, and I was wearing a full chicken suit. It was
would be surprised to learn they actually create their com- the dumbest thing ever, but we knew we would be making so
edy while sober. “I thought it was cheating when I was high many more projects.” Eventually they decided to launch a web-
or tripping. I don’t consider that as coming from me,” says site, TimandEric.com, expanding their catalog of strange and
Wareheim. “When it came to what made me laugh, it was a transgressive humor.
realness and the man on the street who wasn’t an actor doing After college, Wareheim began shooting videos for wed-
something weird. We do what we love and love what we do, dings and Jewish events in Pennsylvania, and Heidecker took
but we have to be razor-sharp. To act weird is a lot of work.” DQ RI¿FH MRE LQ 0DQKDWWDQ ,Q  WKH\ SDFNDJHG D VHOHF-
The two concede that not everyone comprehends their ab- tion of shorts and sent it to Robert Smigel, Dan Harmon, Rob
surdity, stoned or not. “I met a guy the other day who told me 6FKUDEDQGRWKHUFRPLFVWKH\DGPLUHG7KH¿UVWWRUHVSRQGZDV
he got a divorce because of us,” says Heidecker, giggling. “He Bob Odenkirk, co-creator of HBO’s seminal sketch series Mr.
said, ‘My wife always hated you guys and she just couldn’t get Show. (Nowadays, Odenkirk is best known as the title character
it.’ But it’s just a comedy show!” on Better Call Saul.) To Odenkirk’s surprise, the two upstarts
“Sara Smile” begins in the background, and Heidecker had included glossy head shots, a letter on proper stationery,
 +H FRQWLQXHV ³7KHLU LQÀXHQFH ZDV FOHDUO\ PDVVLYH WKRXJK
7KH\HYHQLQÀXHQFHG6DWXUGD\1LJKW/LYHWRWKHSRLQWZKHUHWKH\
have two or three pieces that look like—well, you can almost call
them rip-offs. That’s a pretty big deal.”
Indeed, SNL aired a 2010 sketch with Kristen Wiig and Amy
Poehler titled “Ladies Who Lunch,” in which a gaggle of social-
ites try to one-up each other with smaller and smaller hats. It bears
DVDs—and an invoice. distinct similarities to “Tiny Hats” (a commercial parody about
³$W¿UVW,WKRXJKW,VKRXOGWKURZLWLQWKHJDUEDJHZKLFK, an auto-parts store that sells very small hats), which had aired on
would usually do,” says Odenkirk. “But then I was like, What Awesome Show years earlier. In March 2016, the good folks at
the hell? I opened it, and alongside was this itemized bill for Cheez-It Baked Snack Crackers uploaded a Facebook video that
the postage, tapes, dubbing and editing. It was ridiculous and resembles a sequence from season four of Awesome Show. (In
wonderfully executed, so I thought these guys were probably both cases a man has his “mind blown” with the help of some
funny. I watched it, and I remember thinking it was inventive OR¿YLVXDOHIIHFWV )DQVFULHGIRXODQG.HOORJJ¶VSXOOHGWKHDG²
and very different, some semi-animated and music-video stuff, but not before it had garnered nearly 4 million views. Heidecker
but it all came from this comical mix. If you like their voice, it weighed in via Splitsider, saying, in part, “Pretty straightforward
was unique and rare.” rip, and I hope Turner’s legal department digs into this and helps
But as Odenkirk, their eventual executive producer, admits, protect our ‘intellectual’ property!”
not everyone understood the humor—and maybe the humor 7KH WZR KDYH LQ¿OWUDWHG PDLQVWUHDP HQWHUWDLQPHQW PRUH GL-
didn’t quite understand itself yet. They learned this the hard rectly through their commercial and video work. A campaign with
ZD\ ZKHQ WKH\ ODXQFKHG WKHLU ¿UVW VKRZ WRJHWKHU RQ $GXOW Old Spice starring Terry Crews and another with Loctite adhesive
Swim, Tom Goes to the Mayor. “It didn’t work very well. I cer- (who could forget that notorious Super Bowl XLIX ad?), along
tainly knew it was funny, but I also knew what would become with music videos for acts including Depeche Mode, Maroon 5
Awesome Show would work better,” Odenkirk says. “They did DQG 0DMRU /D]HU²DOO FRQVWLWXWH D VWHDOWK LQ¿OWUDWLRQ D VWHDG\
whatever the hell they wanted to do. There were no rules to creep of DIY weirdness onto prime-time TV.
Awesome Show.” ³,W¶VH[WUHPHO\GLI¿FXOWWRGRZKDWWKH\GRDQGPDNHLWZRUN´
Odenkirk offered creative input, but Heidecker and Ware- QRWHV2GHQNLUN³$W¿UVWLWMXVWVHHPVOLNHDEVXUGLW\DQGDNLQG
heim often delivered their own skewed version of what he’d of studied editorial clumsiness or visual crudeness being played
pitched. “It was their own voice,” Odenkirk says. “They are with. But the truth is, what makes their presentation work is an
self-starters in every way. They didn’t need me. I’m just the instinctual awareness of how to play the moment. You can’t copy
biggest fan, that’s all.” it. Only they can do it.”

95
 A week before their PLAYBOY shoot, Heidecker and Wareheim They look at each other and laugh. You can tell they have a
DUHVLSSLQJFUDQUDVSEHUU\/D&URL[DWWKH*OHQGDOHRI¿FHRI$EVR rare bond. When Wareheim was younger, he was awkward. He
Lutely Productions. They founded the company in 2006, toward the was over six feet tall by the age of 11, always felt self-conscious
end of Tom Goes to the Mayor’s run, because they’d had a bad and never had a girlfriend. After meeting Heidecker, he came to
experience with the company they’d been working with and wanted realize he shouldn’t care what other people think. These days,
complete creative control. They even own a sound studio across the he understands the insecurity and awkwardness and tries to use
VWUHHWIURPWKHKHDGTXDUWHUVZKHUHWKH\¿OPPDQ\RIWKHLUVNHWFKHV them to fuel his creativity. But no matter how mature or success-
On a coffee table is a copy of PAPER magazine’s winter 2014 ful Wareheim and Heidecker become, the insecurity and awk-
issue with Kim Kardashian ass-naked on the cover. (Heidecker and wardness offer themselves up in spades. Heidecker admits he has
:DUHKHLP ÀDXQWLQJ 7DPP\ )D\H±OHYHO GUDJ DSSHDU LQ D EHDXW\ a fear of death. “I was stabbed in my back by someone I know,
feature in that issue.) Beneath that is a copy of their quasi-Scien- and I didn’t immediately feel it,” he says. “I fear the moment of
tologist self-help book, Tim & Eric’s Zone Theory: 7 Easy Steps death, something we’re all going to experience at some point.”
to Achieve a Perfect Life. They can’t decide if they wrote the book Wareheim has a fear of illness, and sometimes his dark thoughts
together or not. They tell me it’s unreadable. take over. He believes he may have cancer. He doesn’t actually
Inevitably the conversation turns to our president. “I’ve been have it, but he fears it. He thinks he’ll eventually get something
pleasantly surprised by him,” says Heidecker, laughing. He was part debilitating and lose his mind. “That shit is crazy,” he concludes.
of the “30 Days, 50 Songs” campaign (previously known as “30 That jittery muse has led to some extreme methods of achiev-
Days, 30 Songs” and since updated to “1,000 Days, 1,000 Songs”), ing their vision. Sometimes while taping Awesome Show the two
contributing “Trump’s Pilot,” which envisions Trump dying in an had trouble telling the actors and amateur talent what they want-
intentional plane crash. (Father John Misty later covered the song.) ed them to do, so they would bark orders into a microphone from
In addition to his 2016 solo album, In Glendale, Heidecker has writ- another room. This was partially because what they were asking
ten a handful of satirical songs about 45, with lyrics such as “And was ridiculous and partially because they wanted the performers
on Saturday night when Melania’s a-fast asleep, I tiptoe to the only to have no idea what was going on so they could capture an hon-
room where I really wanna be, and I crawl into that beautiful king- est moment. It wasn’t a prank, though some clearly felt it was.
size bed and I snuggle between my true loves, Ivanka and Jared” In one instance, Steve Schirripa, a.k.a. Bobby Bacala from
and “Take me down to the bowels of Trump Tower.… I’ll be hell- The Sopranos, was doing a commercial spoof called “MyEggs,”
bent to call that motherfucker president.” about a pill that allows users to produce eggs out of their be-
It’s no surprise that Trump has inspired the two comedians. “He’s hinds. Schirripa had to sit on a toilet and pretend he was…using
a Tim and Eric character, and he has been for years,” Heidecker it. He had no idea going in that he would have to pull down his
VD\V$QGKH¶VULJKW7KHEDIÀLQJKDLUXQHYHQVNLQWRQHVORZEURZ pants in front of an entire crew. On top of that, he had to say
VSHHFKSDWWHUQVLOO¿WWLQJDWWLUHDQGEHIXGGOHGDUURJDQFH²DOOWKHVH “Capisce?” “He just looks at me with this ‘Fuck no’ look on his
are qualities Heidecker and Wareheim visit time and again in their face,” says Heidecker. “I felt bad. You can sense in the spot that
work. It says something about the relevance of Awesome Show that there’s depression and disappointment there.” Wareheim adds,
the president of the United States makes it look a lot less hyperbolic “But a lead on The Sopranos was sitting on a toilet, fake shitting.
than it would otherwise. That’s insane!”
“I mean, it’s horrible,” Heidecker says about Trump. “He’s a Asked if they might ever revive the “intellectual” property
disaster for our country, our future, our children, everything and that is Awesome Show, the two are vague. They suspect it would
everybody. But it’s the funniest thing every time he talks.” eventually become a parody of itself. “There are probably lots of
The political climate comes up again when the two are asked to notes I would give it now, but what’s the point?” says Heidecker.
name one thing they can’t live without. “I’m not a very nostalgic person. I understand people who hate
“Sean Spicer,” Wareheim shouts. us. I get it. If you’re not on the same page, you can quickly be-
“My preteen sex dungeon,” Heidecker says. “Now you have to come disgusted with us. If you’re not a fan, that’s never going to
say, ‘Just kidding.’ I heard myself saying, ‘Don’t say anything about get better. We just become more and more annoying.”
my preteen sex dungeon.’ There’s a conspiracy theory that glo- “Yeah, you’re always going to hate us,” Wareheim says.
balists are running sex dungeons. It’s called Pizzagate. Look it up.” “But, hey, I love us.”
 TURN IT UP.

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