MA GA Z I N E

SECONDS
SECONDS #22, 1993 • interview by George Petros

JOHN McL A U G H L I N

JOHN McLAUGHLIN is the most influential instrumentalist

of both post-Beatles Rock and post-Coltrane Jazz. He combined
the guitar styles of those two eras into “Fusion,” one of the most
misunderstood and misappropriated musical genres.
John was once in a trio with Jack Bruce and Ginger Baker, and
was replaced by Eric Clapton, in what later became Cream. Then,
Tony Williams offered him a chance to join his new band, Lifetime.
John proceeded to sweep the cobwebs outta Jazz with his big,
Rock-riff-ridden “fuck you” to the dinner-music crowd. He then
played on Miles Davis’ Bitches Brew and In A Silent Way, wherein
he fused the soul of Jazz with the genitalia of Rock. In ’72 he formed
Mahavishnu Orchestra, releasing the The Inner Mounting Flame
— a journey through time at breakneck speeds disguised as psycho
acid metal instrumentals. An arena-level Fusion act, the band was
eroded by internal squabbles, and fell apart. He toured and recorded
extensively with Paco DeLucia, Larry Coryell, Al DiMeola — the list
goes on and on. But who has heard any of this? Now on Verve,
he’s still the best.

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 “The real American culture —
which I think the greatest example of is contemporary Jazz
— it’s an international language now”
SECONDS: You came to prominence playing McLAUGHLIN: With Lifetime, I was
guitar with Miles Davis. How did that writing a lot. I had all these crazy ideas
experience affect your subsequent work? that I could play with Tony, who’s still one
McLAUGHLIN: Long before I met Miles, of the revolutionary drummers, and with
I was under his influence. The first time the late great Larry Young. There was a lot
I heard Miles, I was 15 years old, and it of groundwork I’d laid with Lifetime that
had an extraordinary effect on me. He was came out subsequently with the Mahavishnu
kind of like my school. I’d been listening Orchestra. I was doing this gig, which was
to Charlie Parker and the hard Bop thing one of the last I did with Miles for a few
— you know, the West Coast school that was years, and we were talking after the gig and
so predominant in the ’50s. he asked me, “Why don’t
When Miles came out with his you form your own band?”
first record with Coltrane and Really, it was the last thing
Cannonball Adderly, it was I expected from Miles, but
like a revolution. Of course, to I had such a regard for him
meet him at 27 years old, and that if he told me something,
to play with him and work I believed it. I thought, “Oh,
with him, which I continued he really thinks I’m great,
to do until the last Paris so I should do it.” From that
concert — What can I say point I started to form the
about the influence of Miles? first Mahavishnu Orchestra.
As an artist? One of the great SECONDS: Prior to that
artists of the 20th Century. I was —
put him on par with people McLAUGHLIN: I did
like Picasso or Stravinsky. Devotion with Buddy Miles
To work with Miles was a in 1969, who was playing
tremendous thrill, of course, with Jimi at the time. I had
but it was also tremendous a chance to play with Dave
just to be around an artist of Holland who was a great
his stature, to learn from him, and to listen bass player from England.
to what he had to say. He had suggestions SECONDS: There was starting to be more of
about what I should do in what situation and a Rock and Blues sensibility in your work at
what he gave me is invaluable. Of course, I that point, right?
loved him, too, as a person and a musician. I McLAUGHLIN: That started a long time
miss him. To this day, I miss him very much. before, because when I was about 19 or 20
SECONDS: Why did you leave his band? years old in London, there were two clubs
McLAUGHLIN: I never left Miles. I started that everybody played. Anyone who was in a
to play with Lifetime, which was Tony band played those two clubs — the Flamingo
Williams and Larry Young, in ’69, but at the and the Marquee. It was the days when Eric
same time, the next day after I arrived in Clapton was playing with Spencer Davis and
New York, Miles asked me to go in the studio Mick Jagger was singing with Alexis Korner,
and do In A Silent Way. Every time he had Charlie Watts was playing drums with
a record, he’d call me. I became very close Ginger Baker, I was playing with Ginger
to him and I’d go to his house, do concerts Baker and Graham Bond, it was just like jam
and gigs. In 1970, about 18 months later, I sessions. That was the time of the big Blues
remember doing a gig with Miles at Lenny’s revival or movement that swelled up at the
On The Turnpike, a club up in Massachusetts. end of the ’50s and ’60s in England. You had
Just before that, Miles had asked me to join these Jazz musicians — of which I consider
his band permanently. I’d put so much effort myself — jamming with Blues players and
into Lifetime with Tony and Larry, which was the end result is Rhythm & Blues. You take
a crazy beautiful trio. He offered me a lot of Rhythm & Blues away from Jazz and there’s
money, too, which was nice. not much left. I was always a great fan of
SECONDS: Lifetime was the ensemble that Charles Mingus. I don’t know if you ever
you worked out a lot of your ideas in, right? listened to his albums.
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SECONDS: Yeah, I know his stuff well. and the responsibilities. I’m happy to do
McLAUGHLIN: This guy was down. He was that, I just trust in the music and see what
very sophisticated, but really down Rhythm happens.
& Blues — it was beautiful. At this period, SECONDS: If I could get back to the first
it was very fertile for everybody. Cream incarnation of Mahavishnu Orchestra. It
came out of that, of course Eric and Blind seems there was an Eastern sensibility
Faith. Jack Bruce and Ginger Baker and I brought into it. That paralleled the drug
had a band with Dick Heckstall-Smith who scene and the psychedelic scene. How did
was also playing with Spencer Davis, Alexis you see your music differing from the other
Corner, and Graham Bond. contemporary music?
SECONDS: Some of your contemporaries, McLAUGHLIN: I come out of a psychedelic
like Eric Clapton, went on to do the big Rock generation and Flower Power and LSD and
thing, but you wenton to do Jazz. Was there all that. It was a beautiful time for me. I look
a point when you almost joined one of the back on the ’60s with great affection, it was
famous Rock acts of the ‘70s? a wonderful period, personally. Of course,
McLAUGHLIN: I’ve always been very there was that spiritual search, but that had
nervous about selling out. There’s a risk, started a long time ago for me also. I don’t
that’s a choice everybody has to make know why I’m the way I am, who knows why
individually. I was too marked by great they are different? I don’t even question it
music already. I mean, I was playing with a anymore. In the early ’60s, before acid and
hard Bop quartet when I was 15 years old. before Flower Power and before everything,
I wasn’t playing, really, I was trying to play. I was studying contemporary religion simply
I was steeped in Jazz music. Not only that, to find out what’s going on. If you just stop to
but the first guitar music I had when I was think for a second, it’s a whole monumental
eleven years old was the Mississippi Blues miracle. The consummation of all that at
and that was some big shock to me. From the the end of the ’60s and the early ’70s was
time I was eleven, American music had such the application of this knowledge into life.
an influence on the way I played, the way I For me it was a question of discipline. I felt
read sheet music, and just in general. The really undisciplined and I wanted to try to
real American culture — which I think the find out what meditation is, to try to learn
greatest example of is contemporary Jazz. It’s some techniques. Basically, you try to find
an international language now, but I think out who you are. That is the question in life.
it’s really the cream of American culture, and That’s the question eventually everybody
I was deep in the influence of it. I still am. asks themselves.
I had too many crazy ideas buzzing around SECONDS: That was the point you first
in my head, and it continues to this day. worked with Sri Chinmoy?
The way I figure it, if music doesn’t lie to McLAUGHLIN: Absolutely. I became a
me — and music doesn’t lie to anybody — if disciple, teaching with him for five years
I just follow my nose, follow my instincts, from 1970 to the end of ’75. I never went for
I’ll find it. It’s understandable people would this la-de-da, let’s just tranquil-out stuff. Life
want to play in a big band and make all the is not like that to me. Life is very urgent,
money, but you run into problems. When I and at this period it was loud, too. Life was
broke up the Mahavishnu Orchestra in ’75, thrilling, and the music should be thrilling,
I’d already been playing with Shakti for too. I didn’t go for this kind of music — it’s
three years, in little concerts in a church or very sweet, very sugary, and very like, “Don’t
in a school. It got to the point, though, where disturb me.” I’m not into that. Music should
I just wanted to do that. The end of ’75 was shock sometimes.
the end of an era. But when something dies, SECONDS: So you developed Fusion at
something else is born. When I told everyone that point.
I was going to play with this band from now McLAUGHLIN: I didn’t really try to develop
on, I got a lot of flak from managers, record anything, to tell you the truth. It was really
companies, and promoters. They said, “What my Blues influences which I started at age
are you doing playing acoustic guitar with eleven, and I hung out a lot with Miles, and
these Indians?” But that’s the deal, if you he was listening more to James Brown and
wanna go for it, you gotta take the risks Sly and the Family Stone, and I really dug

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 “I’ve always been very nervous about selling out.”
that. Before I left the UK, I was playing with of Lifetime I was really starting to develop
a Funk band covering all of James Brown’s some themes and concepts — the concepts
hits and I dug James Brown and Sly and the I was to develop with the first Mahavishnu
Family Stone, it was something else. And Orchestra. I wanted strong music. When
Miles was really into it and so this whole Billy Cobham came, he only had one bass
thing, the recording, then we did Bitches drum and I told him to get another one, to
Brew, and he thought this was a landmark use two bass drums. He said I was out of
record. We shouldn’t my mind, but I told him
make any mistake to just check it out, to try
about it, this was an it. Finally, he tried it and
unbelievable record he loved it. He’d just be
he did. All the great bashing on those drums.
musicians were there It was a great band, that
and Miles just took first one. Too bad it didn’t
everybody and said, last very long.
“Let’s do this.” And SECONDS: Why didn’t it
the result was really last?
astounding, that had McLAUGHLIN: I think
a great influence on we had too much success
me. I could achieve the too quickly, to tell you the
feeling of the influence truth. I was always able
that Miles was coming to keep good relationships
under with the R&B, with Billy and with Rick
the Funk, the Soul, Laird, but Jerry Goodman
in a way, but it’s not and Jan Hammer, they
really the same thing. flipped out. I think we had
Sly and the Family Stone, how would you call too much success, it was too easy, you know
that? There’s no name for it, it’s just great what I’m saying? What a shame, because
music. I tried to get it back. I tried over the last
SECONDS: It was literally the fusion of Jazz ten years to get everyone together to do a
and R&B. reunion.
McLAUGHLIN: I guess so, if you want to SECONDS: Was there a schism between you
put a label on it. All these influences and guys? Was it based on drugs versus religion
Jimi, of course, Jimi blew everybody’s mind, or something?
including mine. Jimi was a real revolutionary McLAUGHLIN: No, nobody was doing drugs
— he turned the guitar world on its head. in the band. Everybody’s got a right to do
Miles had never seen Jimi, and I remember their thing. The schism happened after I
taking him down to see that Monterey Pop finished a combined tour with Santana in
film in the Village. When he saw Jimi, he just ’72. We finished in Hawaii and I was picking
flipped out. He was a sweet person, but what up the rest of the guys to do a tour in Japan.
a tremendous guitar player. Most guitar I got on the plane with Billy, and for some
players were influenced by Jimi, certainly reason Jan and Jerry didn’t wanna talk to
I was. I was playing more and more with me anymore, so it was very difficult in Japan.
Tony and Miles, and the music was getting I thought they’d cool out, but by the second
louder and louder. And it wasn’t just me night they still weren’t talking to me. I went
with Mahavishnu Orchestra, everybody was to them and said, “Look, you can call me the
playing loud. You ever hear Sly live? worst kind of shit in the world, I don’t care,
SECONDS: No. but whatever it is, just spit it out. Let’s get
McLAUGHLIN: Unbelievable, but beautiful. it out, I don’t wanna play music with people
Jimi was loud, man, too much. The drums who don’t talk to me.” Rick, who was the bass
were getting stronger, and I was playing player, said, “Yeah, why don’t you tell him?
acoustic-electric guitar and I was fighting. It You’re always telling me.” But they wouldn’t
was tough. I had to get a solid body guitar tell me and they just turned on their heels
and you start to play differently. The music and walked out. This went on for a whole
changes, and finally, at the last six months weekend and I said, “Listen, I don’t want to

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live like this. We’ve got to bring this thing to so I started to lose people. We ended up as a
a resolution for the band.” I was so stupid, quartet, which I liked. There was more space,
that’s really dumb. it was more open, I could extend myself more
SECONDS: Did you ever find out what the and look for new ways in live playing. At the
problem was? same time I was doing Shakti with the little
McLAUGHLIN: No, I still don’t know. That’s concerts, Mahavishnu Orchestra did the final
far out, huh? We had gigs for like, six months. studio record in ’74 or ’75. When I finished it
It was just stupid, it was silly. I couldn’t get I knew it would be our last record. Narada
them to talk to me, Jerry and Jan. Billy and went on to become one of the greatest
Rick were fine, y’know. It was one of the most producers in America today. So that brings us
stupid events of my life. During that period to the end of that period and I began really
when these two guys weren’t speaking to me, to concentrate more and more on guitar.
we made a studio recording in London that SECONDS: Then you did Inner Worlds.
was really great. And they said, “No, we don’t That was distinguished from the other
want this record to come out. We don’t like Mahavishnu stuff because it didn’t have a
this record, we object.” I should’ve just said, violin on it.
“Fuck you” and just put it out, but we did a McLAUGHLIN: No violin, right. And that
live recording in Central Park instead. It was was the first time I ever experimented with
a really nice concert, but the studio album a guitar synthesizer, which was really an
was really special. I don’t know, maybe they’ll elephant, let me tell you. All in all, it was
release it one day. a volatile time for me in every way — in
SECONDS: Was the second incarnation of the particular path I was following with Sri
the band an attempt to recreate the first one? Chinmoy, I was feeling some dissatisfaction
McLAUGHLIN: No, no, no. It was a great in that sense. In life, nothing is separate
band and I was happy just to be in it. But and I think that translates to your music
by the time we got to 1973 I was like — the and to life in general. Shortly after that I
first thing I did in 1973 was I recorded folded the band and left Sri Chinmoy and the
with the London Symphony Orchestra. In movement.
that band there was a string quartet, Jean SECONDS: Was it an amicable departure?
Luc Ponty on lead violin, Narada Michael McLAUGHLIN: Absolutely! He’s an
Walden playing drums, Ralph Armstrong on absolutely beautiful man. But I don’t think
bass — a great bass player. After that deal, you have to be afraid to change, that’s my
this orchestral nightmare — that was a real philosophy in life. It’s not that I’m being
experience. We played live with the Buffalo capricious or anything, but I think if you
Symphony. We went on the road with an don’t listen to your inner voice, you end up
eleven piece band but I really liked it, I was in trouble. I pay attention to what’s going
into it. The music was different, I had new on inside of me because I want to stay in
concepts that I wanted to try out. When we harmony with myself; I don’t want to be in
finally made Visions Of The Emerald Beyond, conflict in any way with myself. I think that’s
that actually, for me, was one of the greatest one of the reasons why I didn’t want to play
records of this genre. in some band and make a lot of money. I’d
SECONDS: I agree. rather be happy with what I have and just
McLAUGHLIN: That record is something work and develop as a person, as a human
else. It’s beautiful. For me, personally, to this being, and as a musician.
day it stays beautiful and I’m really happy SECONDS: I’d like to ask you about the
we made it. By 1973, I’d been studying South Shakti period. What criticism about that
Indian classical music theory at Wesleyan period bothers you the most?
University in Connecticut and I was coming McLAUGHLIN: “Why don’t you play
more under the influence of new concepts electric?”
and new ways of looking at music. I’d already SECONDS: That’s one of the fundamental
hooked up with Zakir Hussain and Shankar. questions — it’s always been electric versus
SECONDS: This is L. Shankar, right? acoustic, right?
McLAUGHLIN: Yeah, right. And we started McLAUGHLIN: Curiously enough, with
to do these little concerts in ’74 and in Shakti I lost some fans, but I gained some
between time I felt the band was overweight, others. But, so what? In the end, the listener

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 “I don’t know why I’m the way I am — who knows why
they are different? I don’t even question it anymore.”
has got to be able to trust me. If I sell out, It’s a strange musical expression but it’s
then I sell the listener out. I don’t know more like a social expression. They’re all
how it really works, but that’s how it works expressions of a growing consciousness of
for me. People know that if I make a new the young generation. They’re all looking for
formation — they know I’m not gonna sell their way, we’re all looking for our way in
out, I’m not selling anybody out and I’m life, collectively and individually. The young
certainly not going to sell myself out. We’re generation, every time they’re looking for a
all in it together. Shakti had some kind of new way. I remember when I played with the
popularity. In fact, I got awards in Italy for first Mahavishnu Orchestra and some Jazz
contributions to music with the Shakti group, musician came up to me and said, “What is
can you believe that? that? This loud shit, man, what is that?” And
I just had to do that, we said, “That’s the
and I was very happy way it is, y’know?” I
to do it. And then we like to check things
had the One Truth out, I like to know
Band for about 18 what’s going on.
months in which SECONDS: How do
Shankar really tried you see yourself, in
to come more into the terms of your impact?
Western world. McLAUGHLIN:
SECONDS: At the From time to time
time of the One Truth I’ll hear a record
Band, ’78-’79, there and recognize some
was a reaction to things, but I’m so
the opulence and the much involved with
baroqueness of the what I’m doing from
Fusion you were doing. day to day, that I
How did that affect don’t really have time
you, when Punk came to think about it. Life
along and the minimalist stuff came out? is very short and I’ve been very lucky. I’ve
McLAUGHLIN: The minimalists were had a great life, but I’ve got so much work
under the influence of Indian music. If you left to do. I’m just trying to do what I can
go back, the instigator of all the minimalists before my number gets called.
was LaMonte Young, who was an American You know what I’m saying? •••
that’d been under the influence of Indian
music for a real long time.
SECONDS: How about the Punk stuff?
McLAUGHLIN: I really liked it, I dig
that, I mean in small doses, but I liked it.

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